Removing spells that make Class Features Obsolete

[Paragon]

Hello Playground,

While discussing with a friend, we came to the joking conclusion that Knock was a second level spell that outclassed Trapfinders (Rogue, Beguiler, Spellthief, ...) so hard they probably lost a Tier just because it existed.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I'm sure there's a great many spells that do the same and I wonder what would happen if they were to disappear ? Would taking some options to the most versatile classes (namely, spells) would make other ones shine a bit more ?

On that note let's list the spells we should surgically remove :

Rogue
Knock (Open Lock, Trapfinding)
Detect Traps (Trapfinding)
Ruin Delver's Fortune (Evasion on the Reflex option)
Hunter's Eye (Sneak Attack)

Barbarian
Primal line of spells (just the Uncanny Dodge benefit from stacking them)
Watchful Ancestors (Uncanny Dodge)

Cleric
Bone Talisman (web) (Turn Undead)

Bard
Protégé (Bardic Music)

Fighter
Mirror Move (Fighter Bonus Feats)
Heroics (Fighter Bonus Feats)

Paladin
Ruin Delver's Fortune (Divine Grace with Cha to save options and even Fear Immunity)

Monk
Feather Fall (Slow Fall, High Tumble checks)

Druid
Polymorph

General Martial Stuff
Master's Touch & Wieldskill (Weapon Proficiencies)
Divine Power (Full Bab and Str)

[H_H_F_F]

I agree on detect traps, disagree on knock. Knock is way more situational than lock-picking.

[Paragon]

Knock makes any kind of lockpicking pointless. Not just that, it opens up "stuck, barred, locked, held, or arcane locked doors" which lockpicking wouldn't even be able to do in the first place.

If that wasn't enough, you can open anything from a 90%-of-the-time-safe medium range making trapfinding useless as well.

[Asmotherion]

Ruin Delver's Fortune when cast for the Reflex Bonus gives you Evassion, IMO one of the Rogue's best abilities. I think it's worth the list.

On Knock: It does tend to alert the whole dungeon of your pressence, so I wouldn't say it's as good as a Rogue, but I get the point.

[Paragon]

Ruin Delver's Fortune when cast for the Reflex Bonus gives you Evassion, IMO one of the Rogue's best abilities. I think it's worth the list.

It's also a ban for Divine Grace ! Good catch

[Troacctid]

I don't know if I've ever actually seen anyone take Knock as an actual spell and not just a scroll. Frankly, I think having Open Lock as a skill is better than taking Knock as a spell—it's stealthier, you can take 20 on it and rarely fail, and it's usable at will. If your players aren't taking Open Lock on their rogues, it's probably because they don't think picking locks is useful enough to be worth still ranks, not because they're planning to unlock doors with Knock instead. (Unless they're a beguiler, in which case, fair.) You can ban Appraising Touch all you like; it's not going to make anyone take ranks in Appraise.

I don't see how Protégé is a problem. You're not invalidating the bard if the bard is the one casting it. I also don't see the issue with Heroics, unless you're also going to ban Bless for stepping on the toes of Weapon Focus.

[Kurald Galain]

In my experience,
I've only very rarely seen anyone use Knock; if the party doesn't have a rogue, we use dwarven lockpicks to open things (i.e. a battleaxe).
Pathfinder has a straightforward way for anyone to take trapfinding... and people still don't particularly care about that. Traps just aren't an exciting element of gameplay, and neither is bypassing them.
Evasion is great, no argument there.
Uncanny Dodge, I don't think I've ever seen anyone give it much heed. Sure, getting flatfooted sucks, but it's not that common and other conditions also suck; that's the point of conditions. More to the point, why is the dodging barbarian obsolete if the wizard also dodges? Seems to me that it's fine if multiple people dodge.
Rage the spell gives a lesser bonus than barbarians, and besides there are better 3rd-level buff spells like Haste. And, if casters are buffing the martials, they're doing teamwork and I approve of that.
Given how strong clerics are, I'm not particularly bothered by another caster turning undead; especially when Halt Undead and Command Undead are on numerous caster lists.
Heroics is a spell usually cast on martials to make them stronger; again not seeing the problem here. Sure, a caster can give himself Imp Initiative, but he has other ways of doing that too.
RDF is good, but does it seriously obsolete a paladin? I'd be more worried if a wizard could cast himself a warhorse and smite evil. And likewise, I don't see how one character's good saves are obsolete if another character also has good saves.


Overall, except for the ages-old chestnut that "rogues are useless because Knock", I'm not seeing much of a change to anything if these spells would disappear. $.02

[Akal Saris]

Divine Power (Clr 4) makes BAB progression obsolete for clerics, which in turn impacts the balance of numerous cleric prestige classes and variants, either those which over-value full BAB and have few other features to compensate, or those which offer half-BAB as a balancing mechanism (such as cloistered cleric), which becomes a largely meaningless loss if the cleric can quicken or persist Divine Power in every encounter.

Featherfall is a 1st level spell that's superior to a level 18 monk's slow fall.

[bekeleven]

Finally, people that recognize the need to ban Tenser's Transformation.

[RandomPeasant]

Knock makes any kind of lockpicking pointless. Not just that, it opens up "stuck, barred, locked, held, or arcane locked doors" which lockpicking wouldn't even be able to do in the first place.

So it does something lockpicking does not? Wouldn't banning it then leave us with problems the party cannot solve?

More than that, it does not make lockpicking pointless. knock is expensive, especially if you are casting it from spell slots. Every time you cast knock is a time you don't cast glitterdust or web. It's actually fairly easy to imagine situations where you'd rather have Open Lock than knock. For instance: perhaps you are breaking into some sort of factory which has a locked outer gate (one casting of knock), a lock on the management building (two castings of knock), a lock on the owner's office (three castings of knock), and a lock on the owner's safe (four castings of knock). You could spend the Wizard's entire collection of spell slots on that, or you could just have the Rogue roll some number of times. Maybe you'd even do a mix, on the assumption that the lock on the safe is more difficult than the other ones. That seems completely fine to me.

[Paragon]

Tenser's Transformation at least prevents you from casting while you're buffed. It costs a 6th level spell and a Bull Strength potion

I'll add Divine Power.

I get your point on Rage being cast on martials.

It's not the first time I hear people saying Knock makes a lot of noise. I have no clue where that assumption stems from though. Aren't you all thinking of Shatter instead ?
I stand by my point, one 2nd level spell invalidating trapfinding, Open Lock, Forcing a door open all that at a distance as a std is OP.

I get the point of Bardic spells duplicating bardic abilities. This one is tricky

@Random Peasant. Good point on the "2nd spells aren't free while mundane is" but I stand by that this is only when there's no adverse consequences at trying again (triggering traps, losing time and whatnot)

[RandomPeasant]

@Random Peasant. Good point on the "2nd spells aren't free while mundane is" but I stand by that this is only when there's no adverse consequences at trying again (triggering traps, losing time and whatnot)

Well, sure. But that's good. Things having different properties make the game more interesting. Sometimes there will be a door that is very important to open quickly, or which you think probably has nasty traps on it. In those cases, you might want to use knock. At other times, there will be a door that you have a lot of time to open, or which isn't trapped. Neither option dominates the other, and you would like to have both if you have the opportunity. You might even also want some other options, like mountain hammer which is a renewable resource like Open Lock, but massively less stealthy than either it or knock.

[H_H_F_F]

Tenser's Transformation at least prevents you from casting while you're buffed. It costs a 6th level spell and a Bull Strength potion

I'll add Divine Power.

I get your point on Rage being cast on martials.

It's not the first time I hear people saying Knock makes a lot of noise. I have no clue where that assumption stems from though. Aren't you all thinking of Shatter instead ?
I stand by my point, one 2nd level spell invalidating trapfinding, Open Lock, Forcing a door open all that at a distance as a std is OP.

I get the point of Bardic spells duplicating bardic abilities. This one is tricky

@Random Peasant. Good point on the "2nd spells aren't free while mundane is" but I stand by that this is only when there's no adverse consequences at trying again (triggering traps, losing time and whatnot)

I think it's people thinking of 5E, where it makes a big noise. However, it's still noisier as a vocal spell, and it's still a "locked thing" solution, and not a "dungeon" solution. As I said, I really think it's way more situational. How often do you know in advance that you're going to need one thing opened, and don't mind making some noise?

[Troacctid]

It's not the first time I hear people saying Knock makes a lot of noise. I have no clue where that assumption stems from though. Aren't you all thinking of Shatter instead ?
I stand by my point, one 2nd level spell invalidating trapfinding, Open Lock, Forcing a door open all that at a distance as a std is OP.
I wouldn't say it makes a lot of noise. It makes a normal amount of noise. It has a verbal component, which is equivalent to a result of 0 on a Move Silently check. That means anyone within 100 feet who is paying attention should be able to hear you easily by taking 10 on Listen, even if they have +0 to the skill.

[lesser_minion]

Knock explicitly making a loud 'knock' sound is a 5e thing, but the base DC to hear someone performing the verbal component of a spell is zero at most, and maybe less ("people talking" can use their indoor voices. A verbal component requires a 'strong' voice). That means that nearly anyone within 60m may get a check to hear you unless distracted or asleep.

[Paragon]

I wouldn't say it makes a lot of noise. It makes a normal amount of noise. It has a verbal component, which is equivalent to a result of 0 on a Move Silently check. That means anyone within 100 feet who is paying attention should be able to hear you easily by taking 10 on Listen, even if they have +0 to the skill.

Disagree here.

Listen DC is +5 from behind a door (which we're assuming this is all about) and +1 per 10ft. As I said, Medium range implies 130ft min by the time you can cast it which is +13 on the Listen check.
Furthermore I would also be surprised if my DM would count a verbal component as "people talking"

[RandomPeasant]

Also there are plenty of situations where the door you are trying to open is not anywhere near anyone you care about. If you are sneaking around trying to steal something, it's quite possible that your concern is "will someone be able to tell I was here tomorrow" and not "will someone hear me right now". Certainly knock making some amount of noise will sometimes matter, but again that's a good thing inasmuch as it gives it different performance characteristics from other ways of opening locks.

[Khedrac]

I don't know if I've ever actually seen anyone take Knock as an actual spell and not just a scroll. Frankly, I think having Open Lock as a skill is better than taking Knock as a spell—it's stealthier, you can take 20 on it and rarely fail, and it's usable at will. If your players aren't taking Open Lock on their rogues, it's probably because they don't think picking locks is useful enough to be worth still ranks, not because they're planning to unlock doors with Knock instead. (Unless they're a beguiler, in which case, fair.) You can ban Appraising Touch all you like; it's not going to make anyone take ranks in Appraise.

I don't see how Protégé is a problem. You're not invalidating the bard if the bard is the one casting it. I also don't see the issue with Heroics, unless you're also going to ban Bless for stepping on the toes of Weapon Focus.

The weird thing is the Beguiler's handbooks say don't bother with Open Locks as a skill because you get knock. Having played a beguiler I muched preferred the skill ebcause it didn't use up a limited resource (second level spell slots are usually better spent on glitterdust).
That said I have played a wizard who cast knock once - and we had a very good rogue in the party. I think it was a case of we knew we didn't want to be anywhere near the door when it opened (why, I don't recall - this was over 20 years ago) and ended up being only just outside whatever nasty effect happened. Knock as a spell does not make open locks obsolete - it is for when the rogue says "I don't want to be anywhere near this door when opened".

[Jay R]

Knock makes any kind of lockpicking pointless.

Not if there's more than one lock in an entire dungeon or castle. The essential difference between knock and lockpicking is the need to use a spell slot.

Put half the treasures in a dungeon in locked chests or behind locked doors, and the wizard will quickly run out of memorized knock spells, ord the sorcerer will run out of open slots.

A wizard can't learn knock until 3rd level, and then must choose to prepare it once for each lock she expects to face that day. A sorcerer can't learn it until 4th level, and only then if he doesn't learn another 2nd level spell. None of my casters have bothered to learn that spell. I try to learn the spells the party needs, not the ones the party doesn't need.

Turn the question around. Why should a wizard or sorcerer waste resources learning a spell just to replace what somebody in the party can do already?

Don't ban it; use it wisely. Buy one or two knock scrolls, and save them for the minority of locks the rogue can't open. Then let the rogue player have the rogue fun, while the caster player has caster fun. The caster player doesn't need to have rogue fun.

Knock can only replace lockpicking because the DM doesn't have enough locks in the party's way, or because the arcane caster player is trying to replace the rogue. Knock shouldn't be a daily spell to take away opportunities away from another player.; it's a rare spell for the occasional time that you need it. This "problem" is not caused by the rules; its cause by the DM and/or players.

The same is true of some of the other spells on your list. Casters choose spells that duplicate the skills of other PCs? The solution isn't to ban those spells. It's for the caster player to choose spells that actually improve the party.

In all my gaming from 1975 to the present, I've never seen this problem develop. But I play with people who work together.

[RandomPeasant]

The weird thing is the Beguiler's handbooks say don't bother with Open Locks as a skill because you get knock. Having played a beguiler I muched preferred the skill ebcause it didn't use up a limited resource (second level spell slots are usually better spent on glitterdust).

Yeah I have no idea why you'd make that recommendation to a Beguiler. If you are looking for a skill to cut out in favor of spells, ditch Hide. Or Bluff because you get glibness. Though, TBH, you can get close to all the skills you want as a Beguiler anyway. You get 6 points base and your best stat is INT, you don't really need to economize much.

[Paragon]

Not if there's more than one lock in an entire dungeon or castle. The essential difference between knock and lockpicking is the need to use a spell slot.

As I said to the last person you brought this up, this is a good point.

I'm not trying to steal anything from you, I'm doing a thought experiment.
It's common knowledge that casters can basically fill any roles and that's one of the reasons they're tiered over other classes. The idea was simply to see what happens if you playtest this idea whether it would close the gap a bit or not.

Saying "you're the problem" never helped anyone. Ever. Saying "I never have this problem because I play like this should be played" neither.

So thanks for the input and let's try to keep it constructive (or you know, just ignore the topic)

[InvisibleBison]

As I said, Medium range implies 130ft min by the time you can cast it which is +13 on the Listen check.

How often are you going to be able to stand 130 feet away from the thing you want to unlock and still get line of effect to it?

[RandomPeasant]

It's common knowledge that casters can basically fill any roles and that's one of the reasons they're tiered over other classes. The idea was simply to see what happens if you playtest this idea whether it would close the gap a bit or not.

I just don't think it closes the gap that much. The best caster builds are the ones doing caster stuff. The Wizard isn't T1 because if they buy a wand of knock they can make the Rogue's investment in Open Lock feel pointless, they're T1 because they can learn teleport and planar binding and shapechange and simulacrum and a laundry list of other spells that, while completely distinct from what other classes are doing, are nonetheless more powerful than anything someone who isn't a spellcaster gets to do. There's even a class that gets and uses both Open Lock and knock and is on a comparable power level to the Wizard: the Beguiler.

[lesser_minion]

Disagree here.

Listen DC is +5 from behind a door (which we're assuming this is all about) and +1 per 10ft. As I said, Medium range implies 130ft min by the time you can cast it which is +13 on the Listen check.
Furthermore I would also be surprised if my DM would count a verbal component as "people talking"

A verbal component requires you to "speak in a strong voice". That's louder than the voice you'd use for conversation, so I'd say that setting a base DC of 0 is pretty charitable.

A high DC due to long range also isn't necessarily much help -- in a city, lots of people can be entitled to a check to hear you, even if they don't have a wisdom bonus, racial bonus, or skill ranks. Urban areas and dungeons also tend to have lots of twisty passages and alleyways with restricted line of sight/line of effect that make it harder to use your spells at maximum range.

You may also want to cast spells or use skills that require you to be closer. The Search skill usually only works within 3m, for example.

[Apaa75]

Hey I was the second person from the discussion.
For context (and to steer away from the knock debate) the point was : full caster have spells that can render skill, ability and sometimes entire class rôle moot and then have have some stuff on on top of that. In my opinion this can at best still the spotlight (sometime) and at worst render a party member useless.


Examples like :
- detect secret doors or detect trap/pits vs search/spot or elf traits

- dicern lies vs sense motive

- divine power vs full BaB

- enthrall vs facinate

- fabricate vs craft (to some extent)

- father fall vs monk's slow fall

- find the path vs survival (some aspects)

-find traps (self explanatory.)

Are some exemple (and I'm only at the letter F of the core spells).

While none of these are entirely destructive for most lower tiers classes. They actively participate to render them even less attractive.

Why bother with a skill of an ability if it can be replicated by a spell (and most of the time a cheap wand/scroll).

Proposed alternative for homebrew campaigns :

- Bar skills improving spell for full caster (glibness is a good pre existing example)
- spells that emulate a class skill should only be accessible via items and UMD (prevents class role stealing a low level while maintaining accessibility at higher leven).
- Some personal spell actually transformed to "non-personal" .


Not entirely sure about that last one though.
But all this mainly to say : give some low tier class some love if you can.

All this is opinion, take it as such (or don't, I'm a post not a cop)

[Troacctid]

The weird thing is the Beguiler's handbooks say don't bother with Open Locks as a skill because you get knock. Having played a beguiler I muched preferred the skill ebcause it didn't use up a limited resource (second level spell slots are usually better spent on glitterdust).
That said I have played a wizard who cast knock once - and we had a very good rogue in the party. I think it was a case of we knew we didn't want to be anywhere near the door when it opened (why, I don't recall - this was over 20 years ago) and ended up being only just outside whatever nasty effect happened. Knock as a spell does not make open locks obsolete - it is for when the rogue says "I don't want to be anywhere near this door when opened".
Yeah I have no idea why you'd make that recommendation to a Beguiler. If you are looking for a skill to cut out in favor of spells, ditch Hide. Or Bluff because you get glibness. Though, TBH, you can get close to all the skills you want as a Beguiler anyway. You get 6 points base and your best stat is INT, you don't really need to economize much.
The reason you don't take Open Lock on a beguiler is because beguilers have a really powerful class skill list. Even rogues don't always take Open Lock, and they have more skill points and no free access to knock. As a trapfinder, you want Search and Disable Device. As a spellcaster, you want Concentration, Spellcraft, and Use Magic Device. As a party face, you want Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive. As a scout, you want Hide, Move Silently, Spot, and Listen. To be safe in combat, you want Escape Artist and Tumble. If you want to know things, then you want Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (local), and maybe even Gather Information (probably not Gather Information). For specialty cases, you wouldn't mind having Disguise, Forgery, Open Lock, and Sleight of Hand. But you can't have it all. What are you willing to give up in order to keep Open Lock maxed when you could just use your ample supply of spell slots to cast knock?

I mean, obviously put 1 rank in there to be able to use it trained. That's just common sense. But, you know...besides that.

[Maat Mons]

By this logic, shouldn’t all forms of flight be banned, because they render Balance, Climb, and Jump obsolete? For that matter, if you can fly, you can bypass most water without resorting to Swim, and you won’t need to make a Tumble check to reduce falling damage if the ground disappears.

Also, teleportation effects can negate some uses of skills:

Balance, Climb, and Jump can be negated by just teleporting where you need to go.
There’s no need for Survival checks if you skip the overland travel.
Instead of Tumbling to avoid attacks of opportunity for moving past an enemy, just skip over the space that’s anywhere near an enemy.
If you’re tied up, teleport, but don’t take the fetters with you. No need for Escape Artist.
You could use Hide and Move Silently, to sneak past the guards at the gate, or you could teleport into the compound and skip the gate entirely.
A room has a locked door? Teleport in and open it from the inside.
You don’t want to smash open the locked chest because you’re afraid someone will hear the noise? Teleport yourself and the chest to a secluded spot where no one will overhear.

Not much point in taking ranks in Heal when healing magic exists.

You know what really devalues the Craft skill? The fact that it’s possible to buy things. Why learn how to forge a sword when there’s a blacksmith in town who will make one for you? We’d best get rid of the entire economy.

But wait, if money’s no longer a thing, we’ve made the Profession skill obsolete. Oh no, Craft and Profession can’t both be valuable in the same game.

The fact that casters can use wands and scrolls without making Use Magic Device checks is unfair to Rogues.

I’m not sure what we have to ban to make Use Rope attractive, but let’s just start banning things, and I’m sure we’ll get there eventually.

[Apaa75]

By this logic, shouldn’t all forms of flight be banned, because they render Balance, Climb, and Jump obsolete? For that matter, if you can fly, you can bypass most water without resorting to Swim, and you won’t need to make a Tumble check to reduce falling damage if the ground disappears.

Also, teleportation effects can negate some uses of skills:

Balance, Climb, and Jump can be negated by just teleporting where you need to go.
There’s no need for Survival checks if you skip the overland travel.
Instead of Tumbling to avoid attacks of opportunity for moving past an enemy, just skip over the space that’s anywhere near an enemy.
If you’re tied up, teleport, but don’t take the fetters with you. No need for Escape Artist.
You could use Hide and Move Silently, to sneak past the guards at the gate, or you could teleport into the compound and skip the gate entirely.
A room has a locked door? Teleport in and open it from the inside.
You don’t want to smash open the locked chest because you’re afraid someone will hear the noise? Teleport yourself and the chest to a secluded spot where no one will overhear.

Not much point in taking ranks in Heal when healing magic exists.

You know what really devalues the Craft skill? The fact that it’s possible to buy things. Why learn how to forge a sword when there’s a blacksmith in town who will make one for you? We’d best get rid of the entire economy.

But wait, if money’s no longer a thing, we’ve made the Profession skill obsolete. Oh no, Craft and Profession can’t both be valuable in the same game.

The fact that casters can use wands and scrolls without making Use Magic Device checks is unfair to Rogues.

I’m not sure what we have to ban to make Use Rope attractive, but let’s just start banning things, and I’m sure we’ll get there eventually.

Modal scope fallacy mixed with a bit a slippery slope fallacy.

The premise of the discussion was :" We think that some spells steal usefulness of some class ability or skills, if you agree could you add to the list which spells do that in your opinion."


It was not :" All caster arebad, remove spellcasting from all games from now on."

[Rebel7284]

Bard
Protégé (Bardic Music)


and only a month late for my Sharn built, I find a way to get Bardic Knowledge with 0 level investment! Just need to make it last long enough to enter Fochlucan Lyrist!

While I think this thread is a good thought exercise, casters are not powerful because they can burn spell slots to emulate another class for a round or two. Most of the worst offending spells are definitely caster territory. Taking away access to Ruin Delver's Fortune might make the Paladin feel smug, until the caster learns Lesser Planar Ally instead and calls in a handful of better Paladins.... (Probably an Archivist base with this specific example)

[Beni-Kujaku]

Limited Wish invalidates all spellcasting up to 5th level.

[SimonMoon6]

Other spells:

Silence. No need to waste points in Move Silently.

Invisibility/Improved Invisibility. No need to waste points in Hide unless the opponent has some way to use "see invisible" or "true seeing".

Spider Climb. No need to waste points in the Climb skill.

Charm Person/Charm Monster. No point using Diplomacy.

Guidance of the Avatar. No need to waste points in ANY skill.

Divine Insight. Stacks with Guidance of the Avatar. Again, no need to waste points in skill.

I mean, why do rogues even exist, LOL?

(I know, I know, wizards have limited spell slots and they're unlikely to fill them up with Knock... or even buy a wand of Knock. But rogues can pick a thousand locks a day... if they ever have to, which they won't.)

[Anthrowhale]

Master's Touch and Wieldskill grant proficiency with weapon/armor.

At a more generic level, (Draconic) Polymorph (Any Object)/Shapechange makes the martials focusing on strength or dexterity feel like they have chosen unwisely.

[Rebel7284]

Other spells:

Silence. No need to waste points in Move Silently.

Invisibility/Improved Invisibility. No need to waste points in Hide unless the opponent has some way to use "see invisible" or "true seeing".

Spider Climb. No need to waste points in the Climb skill.

Charm Person/Charm Monster. No point using Diplomacy.

Guidance of the Avatar. No need to waste points in ANY skill.

Divine Insight. Stacks with Guidance of the Avatar. Again, no need to waste points in skill.

I mean, why do rogues even exist, LOL?

(I know, I know, wizards have limited spell slots and they're unlikely to fill them up with Knock... or even buy a wand of Knock. But rogues can pick a thousand locks a day... if they ever have to, which they won't.)

This seems a little bit tongue in cheek, but Charm Person just makes someone your friend, sometimes you gotta be able to convince your friends to do things. Now if you said Dominate Person/Monster, that's a different story!

[Kurald Galain]

Guidance of the Avatar. No need to waste points in ANY skill.

Divine Insight. Stacks with Guidance of the Avatar. Again, no need to waste points in skill.

I mean, why do rogues even exist, LOL?

I know, right? Ever since the Knock spell was first printed, nobody has ever wanted to play a rogue again!

[RandomPeasant]

I mean, why do rogues even exist, LOL?

Because Sneak Attack does a lot of damage and its easy to get extra attacks. The skills are not what makes Rogue good, though you are certainly not turning them away.


(I know, I know, wizards have limited spell slots and they're unlikely to fill them up with Knock... or even buy a wand of Knock. But rogues can pick a thousand locks a day... if they ever have to, which they won't.)

If you are never encountering a situation where you need to pick multiple locks in a day, I think that's a DM problem, not a game problem. The wand of knock changes things some, but it obsoletes the Wizard's spell slots at least as much as the Rogue's skill -- the marginal cost of a charge is lower than a slot, but still higher than the marginal cost of using the skill again.

[SimonMoon6]

This seems a little bit tongue in cheek, but Charm Person just makes someone your friend,

And all Diplomacy does is change someone's attitude to make them into your friend if you roll well.

[Pex]

The spells existing do not obsolete others. There's no reason to cast Knock when the Rogue is around. The Rogue does his thing, and you can prepare another spell for use in another situation. Knock is useful when the Rogue is not around or for whatever reason is unable to open a particular lock, such as an Arcane Lock for which Knock specifically bypasses.

Featherfall is needed because you and other party members are not monks. It does no one any good not to have the spell because monk exists. He's fine. Everyone else dies by falling because the spell doesn't exist since monk exists.

It is true because of spells a spellcaster can do almost anything, if he knows ahead of time he needs to do it. He doesn't always know he needs to do it, so he won't always have the exact spell he needs at the moment he needs it. He cannot do everything all the time anytime. The non-spellcasters do their thing just fine.

[Twurps]

I would add 'tongues' and/or 'comprehend language' as invalidating the speak language skill.
And in this case, even the preparation time is in the casters favor. For the speak language skill to work, you need to know where you're going a level in advance.

Also: 'Create food and water' to invalidate survival (at least that aspect and quite a few other aspects are invalidated by other spells)

I would have added polymorf as invalidating the whole wildshaping thing, except for some reason, wildshaping is also a caster-thing? (because why not)

[RandomPeasant]

I mean, to be fair, that's also on Speak Language not working very well for the situations where people learn languages. If your "fix" is to make it so that you have to rely entirely on pointing and gesturing to communicate with the Bullywugs until the adventure is over and you gain a new level, I'm not sure your fix has improved things.

[Twurps]

I mean, to be fair, that's also on Speak Language not working very well for the situations where people learn languages. If your "fix" is to make it so that you have to rely entirely on pointing and gesturing to communicate with the Bullywugs until the adventure is over and you gain a new level, I'm not sure your fix has improved things.

Fair point on that language skill, However:
I can see how a language barrier can sometimes create interesting elements to your gameplay. Be it to make a task more challenging, or for a bit of comedic relief if nothing else.
If that's not your cup o'tea, you can also handwave the whole thing. "They speak enough common-ish to make themselves understood and understand you."

Both options are far superior to 'Casters are now going to have a nice politics/diplomacy like session. Martials get to sit this one out'
At the very least make it a 'range touch' spell instead of personal.

[InvisibleBison]

Also: 'Create food and water' to invalidate survival (at least that aspect and quite a few other aspects are invalidated by other spells)

I'd say it's the other way around, actually. So long as speed isn't an issue, anyone without a Wisdom penalty can forage food for themselves by taking 10 on their Survival check (and if you do have a Wisdom penalty, your partymate(s) with a Wisdom bonus can cover for you). There's no need for the cleric to waste a 3rd level spell every day on something that everyone can just do for free.

[RandomPeasant]

Both options are far superior to 'Casters are now going to have a nice politics/diplomacy like session. Martials get to sit this one out'

Sure but the solution to that one is to give abilities to martials, not take them away from casters. There are a ton of situations that are "casters do a thing, martials don't", I really don't see how replacing those with "no one does a thing" is a profitable approach.

[ShurikVch]

I would add 'tongues' and/or 'comprehend language' as invalidating the speak language skill.
And in this case, even the preparation time is in the casters favor. For the speak language skill to work, you need to know where you're going a level in advance.

I mean, to be fair, that's also on Speak Language not working very well for the situations where people learn languages. If your "fix" is to make it so that you have to rely entirely on pointing and gesturing to communicate with the Bullywugs until the adventure is over and you gain a new level, I'm not sure your fix has improved things.

Fair point on that language skill, However:
I can see how a language barrier can sometimes create interesting elements to your gameplay. Be it to make a task more challenging, or for a bit of comedic relief if nothing else.
If that's not your cup o'tea, you can also handwave the whole thing. "They speak enough common-ish to make themselves understood and understand you."
Smatterings feat (Races of Destiny):

You can learn enough of a language to ask and understand simple questions, explainations, and instructions. This benefit only applies to verbal communication. After 2d6 days of listening to a new language, you know enough to ask simple questions and to follow simple directions. Upon every future encounter with this language, you need only 1d4 days to regain that knowledge.

[Twurps]

Smatterings feat (Races of Destiny):

Wow. Never knew this existed. Learn something new every day I guess.
This is quite close to how I prefer to houserule unknown languages. I might just give my players this feat for free next time I DM.

[thatothersting]

By this logic, shouldnÂ’t all forms of flight be banned, because they render Balance, Climb, and Jump obsolete? For that matter, if you can fly, you can bypass most water without resorting to Swim, and you wonÂ’t need to make a Tumble check to reduce falling damage if the ground disappears.

Also, teleportation effects can negate some uses of skills:

Balance, Climb, and Jump can be negated by just teleporting where you need to go.
ThereÂ’s no need for Survival checks if you skip the overland travel.
Instead of Tumbling to avoid attacks of opportunity for moving past an enemy, just skip over the space thatÂ’s anywhere near an enemy.
If youÂ’re tied up, teleport, but donÂ’t take the fetters with you. No need for Escape Artist.
You could use Hide and Move Silently, to sneak past the guards at the gate, or you could teleport into the compound and skip the gate entirely.
A room has a locked door? Teleport in and open it from the inside.
You donÂ’t want to smash open the locked chest because youÂ’re afraid someone will hear the noise? Teleport yourself and the chest to a secluded spot where no one will overhear.

Not much point in taking ranks in Heal when healing magic exists.


What an angy post. Brings up some good points, though! Removing flight and teleportation would, in fact, ensure that the more interesting elements of dungeoneering will remain in play, and would make skill selection matter quite a bit more for all members of the party. Grappling hooks, climbing tools, and yes, Use Rope would all become key adventuring gear, leading to greater tension outside of combat and a desire to prep for the unknown in ways that don't involve handing a wand to the rogue and asking him to be an expensive wizard. But hey, like everyone's been saying, "Sure, you COULD cast Fly or Teleport to get over the deadly gap, but no wizard worth his salt would dare waste precious spell slots on utility magic, real wizards end the day with as many of their spells uncast as is physically possible!" We all know that casters hate casting, so none of this can ever be a problem or leave other players wondering if they're actually contributing at all when Mister Sparklefingers waggles his digits for the fifth time that day and removes yet another obstacle, all in a tenth of the time that anyone else could.

"Ahh, but the noise! A monster might hear!" In even the tiniest two-man games I've run I have never once had a player be afraid of getting into a scrap. Combat is central to D&D, it attracts the kind of person who likes dungeon crawling and cool swords and putting the cool swords into things that were crawling through the aforementioned dungeons, so starting a fight is a bonus for most players. Knock being louder than a fart in an elevator is a feature, not a bug! It may annoy the rogue but the fighter is happy to have something to do, since he's only got that one thing he's any good at. "Ahh, but you see, if that happens then I or my DM will ensure there's a TPK to PUNISH the players so-" enjoy writing an entire new adventure after that, I guess! Must be rough, my dude, punishing yourself with so much work because the wizard felt like showing off a little.

Fact is, you really CAN strip out a bunch of utility spells that are otherwise covered by mundanes and still leave Mr Wizard with a billion things to do. People may not like it, but it's literally true, and it'd mean the wizard (and cleric and druid) would have to think about skill selection beyond becoming an encyclopedia, which could actually be kind of interesting! Suddenly that shoddy chassis feels burdensome, the poor stats outside of intelligence and constitution are dragging him down, the rigors of adventuring have him feeling his age...!


But back to the post instead of the thread, yes, heal is a literally worthless skill, I dunno where you were going with that. I suppose you wanted to show that not every skill is worth "saving" or something? But everything above it is genuinely a valid criticism, and everything after it is just silly, so the snark here is kind of bizarre. But I'm glad I could use your sass as a springboard for my own, so thanks for that!

[Darg]

And all Diplomacy does is change someone's attitude to make them into your friend if you roll well.

This is far from true. Yes, you can change someone's attitude toward you, but it can also be used for persuasion and negotiation with the latter needing opposed checks. Skills are generally more nuanced than they are perceived to be.

[Maat Mons]

Angry? I assure you, I was smiling to myself as I wrote all that.

[Troacctid]

Legitimately, I'm not sure if there's any spell that flat-out obviates more skills at a time than Overland Flight.

[ericgrau]

If it isn't at-will or all day, and doesn't stack with class features, it doesn't truly make class features obsolete. A couple of these or so are among the worst spells available.

Flight is a good point, though it's kind of expected by spell or item by high levels. Overland flight is limited though, since it's self-only and average maneuverability (bird-like). So it's hard to use in a dungeon but in one it could at least replace jump for the caster. Where you can use it is for long distance travel, but that's hard to do with a party. Outdoors it is nice in combat. Swift fly can do a lot with its good maneuverability and action economy. Fly is nice too, though a combat action is precious and it can kill a lot of your offense. While still leaving your party vulnerable to the foes you didn't stop. I kinda wish skills like climb, jump and swim could be retrained at high level when everybody has the option to fly.

[Troacctid]

Overland flight is limited though, since it's self-only and average maneuverability (bird-like). So it's hard to use in a dungeon but in one it could at least replace jump for the caster.
Still better maneuverability than climbing, jumping, or balancing, all of which are also self-only.

[Trouvere]

The world won't stand still, and there will not be total solidarity between spellcasters.

When spellcasters begin preparing Knock or carrying wands thereof, every door will have 3 locks, so that two castings will be required.

The trap that the spellcaster sends a celestial monkey towards will have its proximity sensor way over there, but the poisoned spikes will of course emerge around the corner where the spellcaster is cowering.

The magic trap that is suppressed with dispel magic will be resetting in 1d4 rounds, so you'd better expect it's somehow going to take a minimum of 30 seconds to get out of its range.

If the vertical passage is important enough that someone is going to fly up it, you can bet it will have its own dispel magic trap half way up.

And in a world where wizards wear shrink item adamantine conical hats, barbarians will eventually wear shrink item adamantine clown shoes.

[AnonJr]

It's also worth noting that there's an assumption that the party is 4+ characters. Sometimes you don't have that as an option, so being able to buy a wand/scroll of Knock means we can still manage when there's only 3 of us and someone playing a rogue or similar is covering too little. (or some other combination previously mentioned)

[Thunder999]

The only person replacing Open Lock with knock is the Beguiler, because they get loads of spell slots, probably have Versatile Spellcaster for even more, and always know Knock. Even then it's often better to have Open Lock and not waste slots. Though of course most of the time we just smash the locks, because who's wasting spellslots and skill ranks on something an adamantine axe does at will for free.

[AnonJr]

The only person replacing Open Lock with knock is the Beguiler, because they get loads of spell slots, probably have Versatile Spellcaster for even more, and always know Knock. Even then it's often better to have Open Lock and not waste slots. Though of course most of the time we just smash the locks, because who's wasting spellslots and skill ranks on something an adamantine axe does at will for free.

Anybody with UMD or the spell on their list can be using Knock to replace Open Lock - I'm rarely allowed to use my "Maul of Open Door" to open doors... :smalltongue:

Like I said, we're smaller than the assumed party so options for people to double up on roles comes in handy. And I only bring it up to point out that you're not always guaranteed to have someone that has a particular ability that a spell is replicating. Hell, even when we had more people actively playing we didn't always have someone who could Open Lock or Trapfind etc. It's nice to have the option for someone to not be forced into a class (or limited selection of classes) just because we need [x] ability.

Just an alternate way to look at the premise of the post.

[Troacctid]

Anybody with UMD or the spell on their list can be using Knock to replace Open Lock - I'm rarely allowed to use my "Maul of Open Door" to open doors... :smalltongue:
Nah, you don't have to have UMD. Not that there's anything wrong with using a partially charged wand, but rod of escape has all the Knocks you'll need, plus Jump and Repel Water as icing, and it's priced to move at 3500 gp.

But the point isn't that you can replace Open Lock with Knock. The point is that the only class that ever actually does do that is the beguiler.

[AnonJr]

Nah, you don't have to have UMD. Not that there's anything wrong with using a partially charged wand, but rod of escape has all the Knocks you'll need, plus Jump and Repel Water as icing, and it's priced to move at 3500 gp.

Artificer, Duskblade, and a few others don't have Knock on their list, hence the additional mention of UMD. (though it's a bit harder to get the Duskblade up on his UMD) We usually acquire scrolls early, and later a partially charged wand from the "bargain bin" or a ... ah ... field donation. When money is a little less restricted we'll have the Artificer make one (if we have one).

Rods are nice, but for the last few years we've tended to fizzle before they become fiscally responsible. :smallfrown: