Explain me E3 please?

[Asmotherion]

Can someone explain E3 to me? I keep seeing it, and have no clue what it is. Is it like custom rules, or some Setting? Both? I don't get it.

Is it some kind of Tier of play?

[emulord]

E6, or E(any number) stands for "Epic 6", where levelling normally stops at the listed number, and after that point a levelup amount of exp just gives a Feat. Its typically used to limit the amount of magic available to casters, and lets martial types fill out more Feat chains and increase their combat versatility as casters mostly just get more spell slots and spells known

[Asmotherion]

E6, or E(any number) stands for "Epic 6", where levelling normally stops at the listed number, and after that point a levelup amount of exp just gives a Feat. Its typically used to limit the amount of magic available to casters, and lets martial types fill out more Feat chains and increase their combat versatility as casters mostly just get more spell slots and spells known

Alright, thanks for the quick response. Follow up question: where do PrCs fit in this kind of game, if at all? Also, does that mean you can take Epic feats by the designated level? Finally, do you gain more skill ranks normally after the cap?

[Anymage]

where do PrCs fit in this kind of game, if at all?

In E6, since PRCs usually came on line at sixth level, entrance was a capstone ability. It might work differently with a different E level, but lower ones like 3 wouldn't have enough room to make PRCs sensible even if you could create ones that lined up.


Also, does that mean you can take Epic feats by the designated level?

Not in any of the versions I've seen. Largely because capping PCs at level (whatever) to keep the game in the sweet spot and avoid high level tricks doesn't line up with epic feats. The idea isn't to bring ELH tricks on line earlier, it's to have a world where strength potential caps out early and the greatest heroes are level (whatever) instead of throwing around high level spells and powers.


Finally, do you gain more skill ranks normally after the cap?

How would you get skill ranks without levels? There are often allowances for either gaining more skill points for wider competencies, or for pushing past the basic cap. (Open Minded for the general case, various skill boosting feats for improving specific skills.) Those are part of the system where you keep gaining feats without gaining more levels, instead of continuing skill point growth on its own.

[Vahnavoi]

There are multiple different limited level rulesets. Depending on where the cut-off point is, only 1 level of a prestige class might be achievable, or none at all. E6 changes several prestige classes into Feat chains. Epic feats may or may not be on the table, but fulfilling the requirements might be impossible or require extraordinary amount of XP. Neither hitpoints nor skill ranks are typically acquired after the cut-off point, save for what can be bought with feats.

[Ramza00]

The goal of E6 is to keep the characters with 3rd level spells and at most dcs and so on that are “roughly” in the level 10 range due to things that can stack. Not like a 20 level character, there will be some plateau where a 8th level, 10th level, 12th level, etc may be better at fighting the dragon than an E6 character.

Yet this gives the DM the ability to hand out candy every session for each 5k xp gets a feat or an equivalent for the original e6 also has capstones like more 3rd level spells and so on.

====

And while there are other level e systems in 3.5, with pathfinder the goal is usually level 8 and some capstones grab level 9 or 10 class abilities even if one is still going for 4th level spells max.

[Buufreak]

So this is definitely not a thread about the Electronic Entertainment Expo?

[paladinn]

So martial characters would keep gaining feats and such, but casters would not gain spells/known/slots/whatever past level X?

I'd think this would be pretty weird. And frustrating, especially for a caster. There are better ways to balance things out. Like limiting spell effects to spell level, not caster level. Like in 5e.

[smetzger]

So martial characters would keep gaining feats and such, but casters would not gain spells/known/slots/whatever past level X?

I'd think this would be pretty weird. And frustrating, especially for a caster. There are better ways to balance things out. Like limiting spell effects to spell level, not caster level. Like in 5e.

Its is not necessarily about balancing things out. It is about limiting the overall power level in the setting. If you want to play a low-fantasy more gritty type of game than this is one way to do it with 3.5 rules and do it with a relatively simple set of house rules.
If you want that type of game it is going to break down at 7th or 9th level when 4th and 5th level spells come online and the Barbarian can do 50-100 damage in a round and has gobs of hit points.

Here are some specific rules...
https://dungeons.fandom.com/wiki/E6_(3.5e_Sourcebook)
https://esix.pbworks.com/f/E6v041.pdf

I haven't tried it. Once you get to level 6 everyone gets a feat every 5k xp.
There are plenty of feats that are useful for casters. Sorcerer can take extra spell etc.

[icefractal]

So martial characters would keep gaining feats and such, but casters would not gain spells/known/slots/whatever past level X?

I'd think this would be pretty weird. And frustrating, especially for a caster. There are better ways to balance things out. Like limiting spell effects to spell level, not caster level. Like in 5e.IME, it's not a "caster/martial balance" thing so much as a "world balance" thing.

On the first point, while you can keep stacking up feats for martial purposes, you can also do so for spell purposes. Get all the Sudden X metamagic feats, other magic boosting feats, etc - and/or get some of your defense from feats to free up spell slots from buff purposes. I think that while an E6 game would eventually favor buffed melee/ranged over direct offensive spells, that's only after a lot of feats gotten, and it's still a thing most casters can do.

On the second, it lets PCs use their full capabilities (and NPCs not be mentally-blocked from using their own) without going full Tippyverse for the setting. Like, in an E6 world (which applies to everyone, not only the PCs), armies still matter, trade routes are still important, being inside a fortified castle with bodyguards is still a reasonable way to defend yourself, etc.

Now sure, it's possible to optimize a character to ignore some of those things even in E6. But something that requires a very specific build is fine - it's going to be rare in-setting, and so makes sense most people won't be prepared for it. As opposed to "the tools to make all that stuff obsolete are just sitting right there on the spell list, very little assembly required".

This is the first time I've seen E3 though. But really it can be any number - I'm thinking E10 or E12 might be good for a higher-powered setting that still stops short of nigh-infinite. And I would use E20 over the ELH rules, personally. But note that if you make it an odd number, prepared casters will be a lot stronger than spontaneous ones - like in E3, Wizards can cast 2nd level spells and Sorcerers can't - that's a pretty huge difference.

[Saintheart]

So this is definitely not a thread about the Electronic Entertainment Expo?

Not unless they have a stall at which the Linear Fighters, Quadratic Wizards problem is solved.

[Buufreak]

Not unless they have a stall at which the Linear Fighters, Quadratic Wizards problem is solved.

That is infinitely more faith than I can muster. Maybe comic con.

[Fouredged Sword]

Alright, thanks for the quick response. Follow up question: where do PrCs fit in this kind of game, if at all? Also, does that mean you can take Epic feats by the designated level? Finally, do you gain more skill ranks normally after the cap?

One of the optional rules is to turn PRCs into chains of feats. There are a lot of fun flavorful PRCs that are just... well, not that powerful. It isn't that hard to just look at a lot of PRCs and copy paste each of the class abilities into a chain of feats. The feats in the chain get the same prerequisits as the PRC normally would plus the prior feats in that chain. For many of them it may even make sense to collapse the class into just one or two feats.

For example, arcane trickster.

Feat - Arcane Trickster (Ranged legerdemain)
Prerequisits
Skills
Decipher Script 7 ranks, Disable Device 7 ranks, Escape Artist 7 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks.

Spells
Ability to cast mage hand.

Special
Sneak attack +2d6.

An arcane trickster can perform one of the following class skills at a range of 30 feet: Disable Device, Open Lock, or Sleight of Hand. Working at a distance increases the normal skill check DC by 5, and an arcane trickster cannot take 10 on this check. Any object to be manipulated must weigh 5 pounds or less.


Feat - Arcane Trickster (Impromptu Sneak Attack)
Prerequisits
Skills
Decipher Script 7 ranks, Disable Device 7 ranks, Escape Artist 7 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks.

Feats
Arcane Trickster (Ranged legerdemain)

Spells
Ability to cast mage hand.

Special
Sneak attack +2d6.

Twice per day the arcane trickster can declare one melee or ranged attack he makes to be a sneak attack (the target can be no more than 30 feet distant if the impromptu sneak attack is a ranged attack). The target of an impromptu sneak attack loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, but only against that attack. The power can be used against any target, but creatures that are not subject to critical hits take no extra damage (though they still lose any Dexterity bonus to AC against the attack).

Boom, a whole PRC condensed to two not overpowered feats. Note I removed the 3rd level spell requirement to make the PRC feats more accessible to E6 characters, basically requiring only a single dip into an arcane casting class with magehand.