What's a reasonable cost for a Wizard to charge for copying from their spellbook? [Archive]

Quietus

2023-06-15, 05:01 PM

Half the cost of a scroll was my very first thought as well. Consider - the wizard could scribe the scroll himself (which costs half the price of the scroll), then sell it. Or he can take a day to sit with you and teach directly out of his spellbook. His net is the same in this case, he's just trading off the downtime required to scribe the scroll in question, for the one day needed to scribe the scroll. Gets time back, but has to be wary since, you know, spellbooks.

If this is an overly cautious wizard or one who doesn't trust the party, they might prefer to scribe the scroll instead, mitigate the risk. But if they trust the party they can save themselves time and still make profit.

LibraryOgre

2023-06-15, 05:02 PM

Easiest: A spell of equal or greater value from your spellbook, and, possibly, the cost of his ink.

More complicated: I'd say that half the cost of a scroll is reasonable, though they will get more cagey with higher level spells. 1st and 2nd level? Yeah, that's probably OK. 6+? The cost for a scroll is likely to be the lowest price you get.

Maat Mons

2023-06-15, 05:10 PM

I don't know if it matters to you, but in 3rd edition, this was explicitly addressed in the rulebooks.

In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to the spell’s level × 50 gp.

Pathfinder 1e, which was heavily based on 3rd edition, went with this instead:

In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). Rare and unique spells might cost significantly more.

Unoriginal

2023-06-16, 07:35 AM

GeoffWatson

2023-06-16, 08:42 AM

Would most wizards trust the PC with their spellbook? The PC could easily steal or destroy the book, which is insanely important to the wizard.

King Owlbear

2023-06-16, 09:04 AM

Would most wizards trust the PC with their spellbook? The PC could easily steal or destroy the book, which is insanely important to the wizard.

This is my thought as well. Seems like something a wizard would only allow under unusual circumstances. Like being exiled and unable to access their wealth. Or as a reward for a unique service that only the adventures could provide.

Unless of course this is backup copy for the wizard but even still I think a substantial deposit would be required.

kazaryu

2023-06-16, 09:14 AM

As the title. Ignoring any costs involved with actually finding a wizard with the individual spells of interest, what might be a reasonable charge for this service? Some members of my group have pointed to the various Reasonable Prices for Magic Items projects that float around and say half the cost of buying a spell scroll, but I'm curious to see what y'all think.

i don't think there is a single set answer. generally speaking what drives cost of a service or item is the cost it takes to perform that service or item. but the only way that applies to a wizard allowing people to copy from his book is that his spellbook is unavailable to him during that time. so like...the only cost of the service is the cost of inconveniencing the wizard in that way.

and that cost is largely arbitrary. some wizards are gonna value it *way* higher than others. particularly stuffy wizards might not even bother making a deal with you at all if you're of a certain social status. whereas others might allow you to use their spellbook for the joy of your company. if the party is obviously in desperate need of this spell, a greedy (or at least financially minded) wizard might upcharge, becuase they can get away with it.

that said, demand *could* play a bit of a role, i suppose. there's only one spell book, and only 1 *maybe* 2 can use it at a time, if they're copying the same spell. and copying a spell takes hours. so depending on how many people want this service that could significantly impact the price.

overall....idk i'd say there's too many possible contexts to give one single price

LibraryOgre

2023-06-16, 09:18 AM

Would most wizards trust the PC with their spellbook? The PC could easily steal or destroy the book, which is insanely important to the wizard.

Have your apprentices make copies of the spells, so you have an extra spellbook, and they get transcription practice.

Cover it in explosive runes that go off if it leaves a certain room.

Unoriginal

2023-06-16, 09:24 AM

Would most wizards trust the PC with their spellbook? The PC could easily steal or destroy the book, which is insanely important to the wizard.

The wizard don't have to propose his personal spellbook for this service, dead wizards' books work just as well.

That being said, yeah, the wizard should have some reason to think letting the PC recopy the spell won't be bad for them (their trust can, of course, be misplaced regardless). Leaving aside how valuable a spellbook is, you don't want to teach Bigby's Hand and get your head Bigby's Handed into a wall, for example.

Chronos

2023-06-20, 07:56 AM

Quoth Unoriginal:

In Waterdeep: Dragon Heist has a shop whose owner, a mage, let people copy spells from his spellbook collection for the following price:
IIRC, that same shop owner will also scribe you a scroll of any of those for twice that price.

MoiMagnus

2023-06-20, 08:38 AM

Would most wizards trust the PC with their spellbook? The PC could easily steal or destroy the book, which is insanely important to the wizard.

A wizard worried about that probably has a backup.

A wizard lacking the funds to have a backup has even more reasons to accept (above a minimum amount of trust in the PCs), since after all, they need the cash to create a backup. It's a risk, but a risk that if it goes well protects against a lot of future risks.

But then, it also depends on who are the PCs. This wizard wanting to copy actually comes from a wizard's tradition, which comes from a social network of trust (a school or a master with a good reputation, etc). The group of PCs is usually either well-known, or working for peoples well-known. Etc.

Assuming this is not the only case of mercantile interaction of the whole campaign, stealing the spellbook does seem a pretty bad plan that can backfire with negative consequences and rumours for the whole campaign. You probably want to steal it in a way it can't be traced back to you, or in the worst case kill the seller so that there is no witnesses.

sithlordnergal

2023-06-20, 01:20 PM

Would most wizards trust the PC with their spellbook? The PC could easily steal or destroy the book, which is insanely important to the wizard.

Depends on the situation. A random wizard in their lone tower studying the arcane arts, effectively acting as a hermit? No, they wouldn't trust anyone.

The Wizard working in a well known library that sells scrolls and casting services? Willing to bet they'd let the PC's look over their spell book, but only with their supervision and only for a price. After all, if the PCs screw them over, no more spell casting services or scrolls for the PCs, and they'll have the law on their side.

Sigreid

2023-06-21, 12:40 PM

Would most wizards trust the PC with their spellbook? The PC could easily steal or destroy the book, which is insanely important to the wizard.

I'd imagine any wizard willing to sell spell knowledge would have separate books that only contain the spells they're willing to sell. Possibly even only one per book to avoid any chance of a customer copying more than they bargained for. I don't see any wizard letting their own personal spell book out of their own hand's.

False God

2023-06-21, 12:45 PM

Sigreid

2023-06-21, 12:51 PM

10gp-100gp times the spell level, depending on the "demand"(that is any kind of in-world rarity) for any given spell IMO. Stick with nice, east to multiply numbers, 10, 25, 50, 75, 100, or more if necessary to keep your math down.
Also think about which spells they're willing to sell. A given caster may be perfectly willing to sell defensive spells but ones that do damage are off the table...just in case you become enemies later.

False God

2023-06-21, 12:57 PM

Also think about which spells they're willing to sell. A given caster may be perfectly willing to sell defensive spells but ones that do damage are off the table...just in case you become enemies later.

This is also a great way to fill out towns and cities with mages who deal in specific types of spells, and are thus more likely to carry hard to find spells.

And also "Bob's House of Boom! If it's a spell that makes something explode, we sell it!"

Could also be an interesting way to introduce failure rates into spells, via a mis-copy, or a poorly written spell, to provide players with a cheaper option, but also a risk factor.

"Crazy Ernie's Discount Spell Emporium! Because you'd have to be crazy to pass up these deals!"

Sigreid

2023-06-21, 01:01 PM

This is also a great way to fill out towns and cities with mages who deal in specific types of spells, and are thus more likely to carry hard to find spells.

And also "Bob's House of Boom! If it's a spell that makes something explode, we sell it!"

Could also be an interesting way to introduce failure rates into spells, via a mis-copy, or a poorly written spell, to provide players with a cheaper option, but also a risk factor.

"Crazy Ernie's Discount Spell Emporium! Because you'd have to be crazy to pass up these deals!"
There's also basic supply and demand. If there isn't a decent supply of potential customers, it's unlikely that there will be an established market.

Also, the seller doesn't have to have any magical skill. That former fighter adventurer may have an old captured spell book they're using to get their ale money.

SharkForce

2023-06-21, 08:48 PM

It's pretty easy for a wizard to create single-spell "backup" spellbooks at a pretty low cost if selling spell knowledge is a thing they plan to do on anything remotely like a regular basis.

There is no need for them to show their prospective customers their full spellbook, and I would say there are at least a few reasons that make it undesirable to do so (for example, it is much safer to risk someone stealing their backup copy of feather fall than it is to hand that same person their full spellbook with a bunch of powerful, rare, or possibly even unique spells in it, and I would also argue that while full-blown "everyone is out to get me" paranoia is not reasonable, there isn't any particular reason for a wizard to want to tell other people every single spell in their full spellbook).

As such, I don't really see these NPC wizards as being people that should worry excessively about having to show people their spellbook. If they're not remarkably dumb, they should figure out the obvious solution within a few moments of having thought about the problem, *particularly* since the entire reason they might show someone else their spellbooks (ie so that person can scribe a spell from it) immediately points to the solution (to just scribe that spell into a spellbook).

In any event, half the cost of a scroll sounds *mostly* reasonable (or the costs from dragon heist doesn't look too bad, though I might increase it a bit on the high end since I think AL kind of artificially limits the amount of gold you can get at higher levels). I would think availability of ritual spells would be higher, but also might have a higher cost, due to the fact that even non-wizards can potentially make use of ritual spells, and certainly other adjustments could be reasonable as appropriate (I mean, if spells are illegal to sell in a certain place, those spells are going to naturally have a much higher cost. In contrast, if you're in a city known for having dozens of magic academies, there could be so much competition that the cost of buying common spells is driven much lower... but rare spells might actually have a higher price because if you own the only copy you can be one of the few people who actually have something that your hundred competitors can't offer).

I would also expect that trading spell knowledge is something that happens as well.

lall

2023-06-23, 08:03 PM

Whatever the market will bear.

LibraryOgre

2023-06-24, 09:52 AM

Whatever the market will bear.

Yes, but what will the market bear, in this case?

While you can SAY that, the fact is, the actual market is "This PC". In theory, there's a bunch of other NPCs who are buying and selling spell knowledge, but it comes down to "How much do I want to charge this PC in this game that I am running", because the NPCs have arbitrary amounts of money, and arbitrary other ways to fill out their spellbook.

rel

2023-06-26, 03:12 AM

T
Also, the seller doesn't have to have any magical skill. That former fighter adventurer may have an old captured spell book they're using to get their ale money.

This is a clever idea, and a great way to change up the spell gathering mini game. Definitely going to use it at some point.

Azraile

2023-06-26, 04:25 AM

Sigreid

2023-06-26, 06:42 AM

I agree with the fact that most wizards wouldn't let you copy a spell from there spellbook, unless it was a coppy of there spell book..... as many wizards have coppies or even carry them.

Some mages might even keep coppies of there spell books (missing some spells) for people to copy out of.... or just a collection of scrolls to be scribed.
Given the importance of spells to wizards, a backup of their spellbook should be the first priority when you can afford to make one. Bad things happen.

Dark.Revenant

2023-06-27, 01:21 PM

Yes, but what will the market bear, in this case?

While you can SAY that, the fact is, the actual market is "This PC". In theory, there's a bunch of other NPCs who are buying and selling spell knowledge, but it comes down to "How much do I want to charge this PC in this game that I am running", because the NPCs have arbitrary amounts of money, and arbitrary other ways to fill out their spellbook.

I think you've already answered it. There's an arbitrary amount of money out there to justify any price. So it basically just boils down to... arbitration.

If you want the players to be able to get the spell right away, its price is "some fraction of your current wealth."

If you don't want the players to be able to get the spell, but could live with them getting it anyway, its price is "every penny you own."

If you want the players to be able to get the spell, but only after a quest, its price is "more than you can afford."

5e doesn't really offer the groundwork necessary to estimate market forces, economy, etc. If you must have a simulationist estimation of what a wizard might charge for spell copying, sum all of these relevant factors:

Hourly Rate: Might be 0.25 gold for an apprentice wizard (based on skilled hireling costs), 1.25 gold for a court wizard (based on aristocratic lifestyle expenses), or even higher.
Security: 50 gold for a blank burner spellbook, plus 10 gold per spell level to copy the spell(s) in question into said spellbook, plus <Hourly Rate> gold per spell level.
Scarcity: Similar to R&D costs. A common spell might not warrant a significant surcharge; a unique or illegal spell might demand a huge charge. The maximum would generally be about what it would cost to buy the equivalent Spell Scroll on the black market.
Margin: Very cheap services might be as low as 30%, but this sort of thing is typically high-margin. Start at 100%, then go higher if the wizard is important and/or busy.

As an example, if you're asking to copy Fireball from the court wizard, that's going to require (50 + 10x3 + 1.25x3) x 2 = 167.5 gold (round to 175 gold) at the minimum. If the Fireball is illegal or too dangerous to sell to just anyone, the Scarcity component would be perhaps 550 gold, so that brings the total to (50 + 10x3 + 1.25x3 + 550) x 2 = 1267.5 gold (round to 1250 gold).

Demonslayer666

2023-06-29, 11:58 AM

I don't think they would. If they did, I think it would be more than the cost to buy the scroll. The wizard assumes a lot of risk by making their spell book available.

I think this would be something only an ally would do, and then they would likely wave the cost.

MoiMagnus

2023-06-29, 02:55 PM

The wizard assumes a lot of risk by making their spell book available.

Peoples keep saying that, but I don't really see how the risk is significantly higher than just "hanging out for multiple hours with the team of PCs" or "sleeping in the same tavern as the PCs".

You're probably not doing it in the middle of nowhere where no one will find your dead body if they rob you and kill you, but in that situation "not making your spell book available" is kind of a side-effect of "not wanting to be nearby heavily armed strangers for any longer than necessary". You probably don't want to share dinner either.

I can see how NPCs would just fear for their life in presence of the PCs, and try to hide any sign that they might have anything of value on them, which would imply the wizard hiding the fact that they are a wizard. But if you manage to pass that barrier by reaching a "friendly conversation where trading would be an option", you're probably in a situation where something is guaranteeing that no one will backstab the other (law enforcement, good alignment, reputation, etc).

Sigreid

2023-06-29, 03:10 PM

Peoples keep saying that, but I don't really see how the risk is significantly higher than just "hanging out for multiple hours with the team of PCs" or "sleeping in the same tavern as the PCs".

You're probably not doing it in the middle of nowhere where no one will find your dead body if they rob you and kill you, but in that situation "not making your spell book available" is kind of a side-effect of "not wanting to be nearby heavily armed strangers for any longer than necessary". You probably don't want to share dinner either.

I can see how NPCs would just fear for their life in presence of the PCs, and try to hide any sign that they might have anything of value on them, which would imply the wizard hiding the fact that they are a wizard. But if you manage to pass that barrier by reaching a "friendly conversation where trading would be an option", you're probably in a situation where something is guaranteeing that no one will backstab the other (law enforcement, good alignment, reputation, etc).
I wouldn't expect this service available on any scale outside a fairly major settlement/city. The only wizard in that remote village? He's got neither the market nor the time to bother with the spell selling business.

Anonymouswizard

2023-06-29, 05:28 PM

There's also basic supply and demand. If there isn't a decent supply of potential customers, it's unlikely that there will be an established market.

In other words mages can theoretically charge out of the nose in settings where they're rare. So pay up bucko, because do you think you're finding this spell anywhere else.

In settings where magic is outright illegal (rare these days, but definitely still a thing) it could be even harder to find a seller who'll charge even more for it. Which is arguably closer to how 5e wizards are meant to be played (with their 2 spells per level and a handful of extras they get as 'treasure'), but that's a bit less fun for wizard players. The real solution there is probably decent rules for researching and developing (existing) spells on your own less efficient than having a tutor but still within expected downtime and discretionary treasure. That still causes issues in settings like Midnight (where 'run out of town for bringing down the wrath of the legates' is a viable adventure reward), but outlier settings will need special solutions anyway.

Sigreid

2023-06-29, 07:24 PM

In other words mages can theoretically charge out of the nose in settings where they're rare. So pay up bucko, because do you think you're finding this spell anywhere else.

In settings where magic is outright illegal (rare these days, but definitely still a thing) it could be even harder to find a seller who'll charge even more for it. Which is arguably closer to how 5e wizards are meant to be played (with their 2 spells per level and a handful of extras they get as 'treasure'), but that's a bit less fun for wizard players. The real solution there is probably decent rules for researching and developing (existing) spells on your own less efficient than having a tutor but still within expected downtime and discretionary treasure. That still causes issues in settings like Midnight (where 'run out of town for bringing down the wrath of the legates' is a viable adventure reward), but outlier settings will need special solutions anyway.

In some settings the spell trade may be under the control of guilds. That would also cut down on dodgy customers as you can't really afford to tick off the guild.

My wizards tend to actively hunt other wizards for their spellbooks...

Tanarii

2023-06-30, 03:40 AM

I would say it's worth about the price of a permanent magic item of its rarity.

Edit: Looks like last time this came up I said double the cost of crafting the scroll. So much for consistency.
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?630173-Prices-outside-PHB

But I'll requote what I said there:

Scribing a spell scroll costs are in XTGE. Just double that amount to account for time (normal procedure).

Although really it should account for the cost of the Wizard to scribe the spell into their book in the first place too. So add 50gp/level to XTGE, then double it. But that starts to become a rounding error by the time you get to 5th level spells, so maybe skip it. Anyway:

1 - 130gp
2 - 700gp
3 - 1,300gp
4 - 5,400gp
5 - 10,500gp
6 - 30,600gp
7 - 50,600gp
8 - 100,800gp
9 - 500,900gp

And also:

Access to a spell means they're either selling you a scroll, or a Wizard is loaning you access to their personal spell book for 2 hours per spell level. There's no way they're doing the latter in a bookstore. Even convincing a Wizard to do that normally is pretty crazy to conceive of, they'd have to owe you a huge favor. So scroll prices are the relevant benchmark.

SharkForce

2023-06-30, 06:28 AM

Peoples keep saying that, but I don't really see how the risk is significantly higher than just "hanging out for multiple hours with the team of PCs" or "sleeping in the same tavern as the PCs".

You're probably not doing it in the middle of nowhere where no one will find your dead body if they rob you and kill you, but in that situation "not making your spell book available" is kind of a side-effect of "not wanting to be nearby heavily armed strangers for any longer than necessary". You probably don't want to share dinner either.

I can see how NPCs would just fear for their life in presence of the PCs, and try to hide any sign that they might have anything of value on them, which would imply the wizard hiding the fact that they are a wizard. But if you manage to pass that barrier by reaching a "friendly conversation where trading would be an option", you're probably in a situation where something is guaranteeing that no one will backstab the other (law enforcement, good alignment, reputation, etc).

Most of those things don't *start* with freely handing over your most prized possession to those people you don't particularly trust, let alone probably leaving them unsupervised with it for several hours (on account of you have better things to do with your time than stare at a person copying your notes for hours on end).

Besides, this is D&D. It isn't uncommon for "dead" to be an easier problem to fix than "someone took my stuff".

Chronos

2023-06-30, 06:36 AM

Why does anyone assume anyone is handing over their most prized possession? Any prudent wizard makes backups. And there's no reason that backup has to all be permanently bound together in a single volume. You don't hand over your entire spellbook; you hand over your backup copy of the particular pages that have that particular spell on them. Maybe you charge a security deposit, to make sure the customer returns those pages, but beyond that, it's basically a pure-margin product.

Unoriginal

2023-06-30, 06:38 AM

Worth noting that a sufficiently powerful mage may not even take their spellbook with them if they go do dangerous stuff.

Not being able to swap your spells is inconvenient, but getting your spell-filled spellbook destroyed or taken is far worse.

Why does anyone assume anyone is handing over their most prized possession? Any prudent wizard makes backups. And there's no reason that backup has to all be permanently bound together in a single volume. You don't hand over your entire spellbook; you hand over your backup copy of the particular pages that have that particular spell on them. Maybe you charge a security deposit, to make sure the customer returns those pages, but beyond that, it's basically a pure-margin product.

Even a backup is very expensive and time-consuming to make. It's not the most prized possession a wizard can have, but it's still a pretty costly item to replace.

Not to mention empowering a potential enemy is a big risk to take even if the spellbook has no risk to be destroyed.

Also I don't think you can make loose pages. Otherwise there would be no point to using a scroll to recopy a spell in your spellbook.

Sigreid

2023-06-30, 07:01 AM

Worth noting that a sufficiently powerful mage may not even take their spellbook with them if they go do dangerous stuff.

Not being able to swap your spells is inconvenient, but getting your spell-filled spellbook destroyed or taken is far worse.

Even a backup is very expensive and time-consuming to make. It's not the most prized possession a wizard can have, but it's still a pretty costly item to replace.

Not to mention empowering a potential enemy is a big risk to take even if the spellbook has no risk to be destroyed.

Also I don't think you can make loose pages. Otherwise there would be no point to using a scroll to recopy a spell in your spellbook.

First, if you're going to make a business of selling spells, the cost to create your copy for copying is irrelevant as you'll charge more than enough to recoop that on the first sale. Second, if I remember correctly, copying a scroll uses it up whereas buying another spellbook and copying one spell for sale into it is cheaper than making a scroll and copying can be sold multiple times.

Unoriginal

2023-06-30, 07:50 AM

First, if you're going to make a business of selling spells, the cost to create your copy for copying is irrelevant as you'll charge more than enough to recoop that on the first sale.

How much it costs to set up your business and how valuable the tool you need to conduct your business are never irrelevant.

It costs 60 gp to make a backup book with one lvl 1 spell. That's an investment the wizard has to make, and losing that investment because your first customer decides to burn the book is not great for business.

Each new spell in the book adds to the value of the tool your business relies on. Which means it's a bigger loss if the customer accidentally or purposely makes it unusable.

All this indicates that a careful wizard can't just treat backup copies as non-expensive, even if they do charge more than what it costs to make a new one to anyone who wants to copy a spell.

Second, if I remember correctly, copying a scroll uses it up whereas buying another spellbook and copying one spell for sale into it is cheaper than making a scroll and copying can be sold multiple times.

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

If it was possible to write spells on loose pages and sell those, there would be no point of using a scroll to copy the spell into the book.

It would simply be wasting money and time to use a scroll for that purpose when the alternative is so much better.

I'd argue that you need to get a whole new blank spellbook to fill if you want to recopy a spell individually.

Vahnavoi

2023-06-30, 07:55 AM

A simple way to deal with this is that direct transcription is forbidden all spells are bought as scrolls, using listed prices.

Sigreid

2023-06-30, 07:57 AM

How much it costs to set up your business and how valuable the tool you need to conduct your business are never irrelevant.

It costs 60 gp to make a backup book with one lvl 1 spell. That's an investment the wizard has to make, and losing that investment because your first customer decides to burn the book is not great for business.

Each new spell in the book adds to the value of the tool your business relies on. Which means it's a bigger loss if the customer accidentally or purposely makes it unusable.

All this indicates that a careful wizard can't just treat backup copies as non-expensive, even if they do charge more than what it costs to make a new one to anyone who wants to copy a spell.

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

If it was possible to write spells on loose pages and sell those, there would be no point of using a scroll to copy the spell into the book.

It would simply be wasting money and time to use a scroll for that purpose when the alternative is so much better.

I'd argue that you need to get a whole new blank spellbook to fill if you want to recopy a spell individually.
OK. If you're going to sell spells, your first level spell price would probably have some percentage of the price to create your sale copy built in.

And yes, what I'm saying is that you would buy a blank spell book, copy the spell and that's your book used when you sell that spell, using the correct inks and papers.

Tanarii

2023-06-30, 09:39 AM

Sigreid

2023-06-30, 09:52 AM

Unoriginal

2023-06-30, 09:58 AM

Oh I'd totally forgotten about the terrible way they wrote the PHB spellbook "backup" rule enables PC wizards to create a sellable one-spell book for 50gp + 10 gp/spell level.

I consider that to be a misuse of RAW and I'd certainly be ticked off if a DM was allowing PC wizards to power up by purchasing spells from NPCs using the PC spellbook rules at that cost even with a 100% markup.

Because let's be clear here:
1) otherwise the game rules expectation (treasure tables) is maybe you'll find one extra spell every few character levels.
2) Everyone already complains wizards are OP. This is the kind of thing that causes that perception.

I believe business-involved Wizards would never do that,for the simple reason that once the spell is out of the bag they won't sell that spell again.

Let's say you sell your Magic Missile-only book for 120 gp. Person who buys it can recopy it in their own spellbook... then loan the MM book two people for half the price you ask and recover all the money they spent (except the ink). Once they loan it to a third person, they're in full benefit mode.

Or, one person can buy the MM book and let their friends copy it for free.

In other words, once the business Wizards have made 60 moneys of benefit for the MM due to one person in a group buying it, they can't make money out of the rest of the group.

In other words, Wizards only getting 60 moneys per core book per group means their business model is undermonetized.

If mismanaged, the gathering of magic simply makes Wizards lose money.

Tanarii

2023-06-30, 10:04 AM

Sigreid

2023-06-30, 11:00 AM

Hah! Good point. There's even a dungeonomics article about that, I'll see if I can find it.

Got it:
https://critical-hits.com/blog/2016/05/24/magic-patents-trolls-scabs-and-open-source-spells/

It also covers consumer protection, ie how do you know you're really buying Magic Missile? :smallamused:
Why would you sell the book itself and not just have a room they go into with it and copy it.

Also, we are talking mideval economics, the whole thing would probably be regulated by a guild...using mob tactics if necessary and taking a cut.

Dark.Revenant

2023-06-30, 10:52 PM

Because let's be clear here:
1) otherwise the game rules expectation (treasure tables) is maybe you'll find one extra spell every few character levels.

I don't think that's correct. From the PHB:

You might find other spells during your adventures. You could discover a spell recorded on a scroll in an evil wizard's chest, for example, or in a dusty tome in an ancient library.

Scrolls are not intended to be the sole source of new spells for wizards.

Tanarii

2023-07-01, 12:31 AM

I don't think that's correct. From the PHB:

Scrolls are not intended to be the sole source of new spells for wizards.
That's still treasure, and should still count against the size of a Hoard.

Dark.Revenant

2023-07-01, 02:59 AM

That's still treasure, and should still count against the size of a Hoard.

Of course. Granted, I’d generally expect multiple spells (typically themed together) in such a hoard. If you unearth an ancient necromancer’s spellbook, I’d expect to see a full wizard’s worth of spells, although of course most of them will be related to necromancy. Tasha’s has a few magic items that offer actual power on top of acting as spellbooks, but the spells alone can serve as a cool filler item that can take up the place of gold value or replace some art objects.

sithlordnergal

2023-07-05, 01:41 PM

All this talk about losing spell books...The Order of Scribes laughs at your pathetic loss of spell books >=D For all books are our spell books...after a Short Rest at least. X3

As for wizards letting others use their spell books, I'm willing to bet wizards that sell spells would have two spell books. They end up making more money by letting someone copy from their book because they don't have to constantly scribe new scrolls. Is there the potential for someone to kill them and take the spell book? Sure. But there's an equal potential for someone to kill them and steal all of their scrolls. Hence why I would figure that such an exchange would happen in a well regulated city, or a place run by other wizards, with rules and laws protecting them.

Chronos

2023-07-07, 07:25 AM

From the PHB, page 114:

The Book's Appearance.
Your spellbook is a unique compilation of spells, with its own decorative flourishes and margin notes. It might be a plain, functional leather volume that your received as a gift from your master, a finely bound gilt-edged tome that you found in an ancient library, or even a loose collection of notes scrounged together after you lost your previous spellbook in a mishap.
So yes, it absolutely can be a bunch of loose pages.

As for why you'd ever want to copy a spell into your book, that's obvious: Because you want to be able to prepare it, so you can cast it more than once. Scrolls are single-use.

And yes, there's the risk that, even with a "book" that's just loose pages for a single spell, your customer will just run off with it. Which is why you charge a deposit. In addition to whatever your fee is, you also charge some hefty deposit up front, well more than it'd cost you to replace those pages. When your customer comes to you, they pay that deposit, or collateral with equivalent value, to you, in addition to the fee. When they're done, if they return your pages, you give them back the deposit or collateral (but keep the fee). If they don't return the pages, you keep the whole deposit. Either way, you profit.

Unoriginal

2023-07-07, 08:37 AM

From the PHB, page 114:

So yes, it absolutely can be a bunch of loose pages.

Well, you still have to pay 50 gp for the spellbook, even if its appearance is "a bunch of loose pages".

I don't think it means you can write a spell on a loose page and give it to a different wizard to do as they please.

As for why you'd ever want to copy a spell into your book, that's obvious:

You misunderstood what I said.

Because you want to be able to prepare it, so you can cast it more than once. Scrolls are single-use.

Exactly.

So, it makes no sense to scribe a Scroll for the purpose of letting another wizard copy the Scroll's spell in their spellbook, IF you can just give them the page with the spell they want on it.

Chronos

2023-07-10, 07:21 AM

So, it makes no sense to scribe a Scroll for the purpose of letting another wizard copy the Scroll's spell in their spellbook, IF you can just give them the page with the spell they want on it.
Right, we're in agreement on that. No wizard would ever scribe a scroll for that purpose.

Corsair14

2023-07-11, 10:40 AM

I typically use this as a money sink. If you can find a wizard that has a particular spell then he or she might allow a PC to copy the spell for 50xlevel for levels 1 or 2. 100xlevel for higher level. Obviously if the player has a scroll or tome the wizard doesnt have then there is room for negotiation.

I tend to run lower magic in my worlds so there isnt a magic shop commonly found. Hedge wizards are about the best you will find in cities with minor magic trinkets under the counter and 1 or 2 level common spells available. Possibly an uncommon spell or higher level spell. For reference in my world magic items above trinkets are fairly rare and come walking into town with a boat load of powerful magic gear and tomes are liekly to be ambushed by the local thieves guild or hired mercs from nobles(including wizard nobles).

rel

2023-07-12, 11:16 PM

For reference in my world magic items above trinkets are fairly rare and come walking into town with a boat load of powerful magic gear and tomes are liekly to be ambushed by the local thieves guild or hired mercs from nobles(including wizard nobles).

Interesting. In my low magic worlds, people walking into town with huge piles of magical gear are usually treated with utmost respect and politeness.
As such people are often capable of laying waste to a town so thoroughly that when they finish you would struggle to even find it on a map.

Sigreid

2023-07-14, 07:23 AM

Interesting. In my low magic worlds, people walking into town with huge piles of magical gear are usually treated with utmost respect and politeness.
As such people are often capable of laying waste to a town so thoroughly that when they finish you would struggle to even find it on a map.
My characters tend to be freedom loving sorts that set as a target a reputation of not looking for trouble but being dangerous enough that the cost of messing with them will be significantly higher than what you have to gain by doing so.