Paragon Surge, Multimorph and Secret of Magical Discipline Question

[Dagearg]

Hi everybody! Based on the following:

Paragon Surge spell (Advanced Race Guide pag. 48):

PARAGON SURGE
School transmutation (polymorph);
Level alchemist 3, cleric 3, magus 4, paladin 4, sorcerer/wizard 3, witch 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range personal (half-elf only)
Target you
Duration 1 minute/level
You surge with ancestral power, temporarily embodying all the strengths of both elvenkind and humankind simultaneously, and transforming into a paragon of both races, something greater than elf or human alone. Unlike with most polymorph effects, your basic form does not change, so you keep all extraordinary and supernatural abilities of your half-elven form as well as all of your gear.
For the duration of the spell, you receive a +2 enhancement bonus to Dexterity and Intelligence and are treated as if you possessed any one feat for which you meet the prerequisites, chosen when you cast this spell. The first time each day that you cast this spell, you must select a feat and make all the associated choices that come with it. Once that choice is made, it is set for the day and additional castings must make the exact same decisions.

Multimorph arcane discovery (Ultimate Magic pag. 86):

Multimorph (Su): Your studies in transmogrification have increased your control over shapechanging spells.
When you cast a spell of the polymorph subschool on yourself, you may expend 1 minute of the spell’s duration as a standard action to assume another form allowed by the spell. You can do this as often as you like, subject to the duration of the spell. You must be at least a 5th-level wizard to select this discovery.

Secret of Magical Discipline feat (Chronicle of Legends pag. 9):

Secret of Magical Discipline
Your study and devotion to magic allows you to access spells beyond your ken.
Prerequisite: Secret class feature.
Benefit: Once per day, you can cast any spell as if it were one of your prepared spells or spells known. This action expends either a spell slot or a prepared spell of the same spell level. Casting a spell this way always has a minimum casting time of 1 full round.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time you take the feat, you can use this ability one additional time per day.

If you use the Multimorph granted ability to change an active effect of Paragon Surge to grant you Secret of Magical Discipline feat, and then change it to give you any other feat and then switch it again to grant you Secret of Magical Discipline, does the latter feat granted count as a different "instance" so giving you access again to any spell you would qualify for?

If the previous assumption is correct, you can basically use Multimorph to switch to different new instances of Secret of Magical Discipline (no need to change to a differently named feat in between, as I stated before)?

[Kurald Galain]

Nice try, but no. There is no rule anywhere that feats can have different "instances" that would somehow allow you to bypass usage-per-day limits.

The last sentence of Paragon Surge ("Once that choice is made, it is set for the day") is errata precisely made to stop a similar trick, so RAI is clear on this matter.

[Dagearg]

The thing is that Multimorph lets you bypass the Paragon Surge "Once that choice is made, it is set for the day" limitation, is basically the same as Emergency Attunement. That is the whole point of those features, altering an ongoing polymorph effect that cannot be changed otherwise. And that is quite an accepted interaction in the Pathfinder community, so that is not in question in this thread.

What I am asking is, if you change the feat granted by Paragon Surge (which I assume is possible using either Multimorph or Emergency Attunement), will the new granted feat count as a new "time you get that feat" for the propuses of getting a spell to cast with Secret of Magical Discipline, as stated in the Special section of that feat: "You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time you take the feat, you can use this ability one additional time per day."

[icefractal]

Do these even work together?

to assume another form allowed by the spell

Unlike with most polymorph effects, your basic form does not change
Like, I get the logic here - Multimorph makes polymorph type effects variable, and the only thing that could be variable about Paragon Surge is the feat - but that seems more like a reasonable house-rule than RAW.

And as a separate issue, Paragon Surge has a specific ban against this. A block that even an entirely separate casting of Paragon Surge doesn't overcome. I think it's dubious that Multimorph is a stronger change-enabler than casting a whole other polymorph spell.

[Dagearg]

I understand what you pointed out about Multimorph wording. As I mentioned, just replace Multimorph with Emergency Attunement. It is exactly the same for the purposes of my question and both abilities come at the cost of a feat.

As read on Pathfinder Society Primer pg. 13:


Emergency Attunement
You can adapt your defenses to any situation.
Prerequisite: Spellcraft 7 ranks.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can alter one of your ongoing abjuration or transmutation spells. It must be currently affecting you and must grant a choice of options when cast. You change its benefit to a different one from
the same list. In order to accomplish this, you must make a successful Spellcraft check (DC equal to 10 + the level of the spell to be altered). The duration of the spell is reduced to half of the spell's remaining duration. For example, a 7th level wizard could change her resist energy (fire) spell with 50 minutes of its duration duration would be 25 minutes. This ability does not change the benefit for any other creatures targeted by the original spell.

So, yes, I'm assuming that it is possible to change the Paragon Surge effect. Because "Once that choice is made, it is set for the day and additional castings must make the exact same decisions." is not a ban, it is just part of the spell effect. And that spell effect can be modified by a feat, just as many other feats modify many other spell effects in the game.

Once again, I'm not asking if it is possible to change the effect of Paragorn Surge. You may not agree with that interaction (Paragorn Surge/Multimorph or Emergency Attunement), and I respect that, but a lot of people do think it is proper and I adhere to that ruling. So, back to my original question.

Being able to change the feat granted by Paragon Surge, if you switch between feats, and get Secret of Magical Discipline, is there any rule that would invalidate the "Each time you take the feat, you can use this ability one additional time per day." line of the Secret of Magical Discipline feat?

[Kurald Galain]

is there any rule that would invalidate the "Each time you take the feat, you can use this ability one additional time per day." line of the Secret of Magical Discipline feat?
The line is actually "You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time you take the feat, you can use this ability one additional time per day."

This means that if you have the feat twice (or more), you can use it twice (or more) per day. With your trick, you never actually have the feat twice.


a lot of people do think it is proper
{Scrubbed}

[Dagearg]

The line is actually "You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time you take the feat, you can use this ability one additional time per day."

This means that if you have the feat twice (or more), you can use it twice (or more) per day. With your trick, you never actually have the feat twice.

"Each time you take the feat, you can use this ability one additional time per day." does not imply you need to have it more than once (or twice). If that was the case, the feat wouldn't have any effect on a character that gets the feat just once by the usual means.

By the way, the character already has that feat. But it is not relevant at all.


{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

As I mentioned, you may not agree with that ruling and I respect that. {Scrubbed} your dissent is duly noted.

[Rynjin]

Ignoring the other reason it doesn't work, as already mentioned (Feat is locked, period)...Emergency Attunement also doesn't work. Paragon Surge does not provide a list of effects to choose from.

You can't just make up rules and expect people to be able to answer questions about what happens if you apply your houserules in a certain way lol. The answer is "if you're already changing the rules, go wild I guess? But that's not how it works by the rules".

[Dagearg]

Ignoring the other reason it doesn't work, as already mentioned (Feat is locked, period)...
That is one way of looking at it, and I respect that, but others don't think so. Just Google "Paragon surge" and "Emergency attunement" and you will see.


Emergency Attunement also doesn't work. Paragon Surge does not provide a list of effects to choose from.

You have to pick a feat.

[Rynjin]

That is one way of looking at it, and I respect that, but others don't think so. Just Google "Paragon surge" and "Emergency attunement" and you will see.

Literally the first result for this string will give you a Mark Seifter post explaining why this doesn't work.


You have to pick a feat.

Read Emergency Attunement again.


It must be currently affecting you and must grant a choice of options when cast. You change its benefit to a different one from
the same list.

Paragon Surge does not provide a choice of options, and certainly not in list format.

We can go as anal with this as you want. The above reason. the other reasons mentioned. The fact that Paragon Surge says "select" and not "choose" disqualifying it from contention. The FAQ. The dev clarification of the FAQ specifically barring this exact interaction.

Nothing about the text of this does what you want it to do. Nothing about the RAI does what you want it to do.

The only support I can find for your position is someone on the MinMax boards asserting it works without properly reading the effects, and then a bunch of people agreeing with the OP because they also did not read it properly.

[Dagearg]

We can go as anal with this as you want.

You are aware that may be kids reading this, right?

[Rynjin]

You are aware that may be kids reading this, right?

If they are, they're in violation of the forum rules. And I hardly think they're going to faint out of their chairs and hurt their little heads over hearing some PG-13 language regardless.

[icefractal]

On Secret of Magical Discipline used this way, it strikes me that this is essentially the same question that arises with Shapechange Zodar wishes - can numbers go below zero, and does information about no-longer-possessed abilities remain or get instantly deleted? Although in this case, since the OP already has SoMD, really only "numbers below zero" part applies.

For "can numbers go below zero", my answer is "yes, and things get weird if you assume they can't". For example, if you say that you can't have negative uses a day of something (or, mathematically equivalent, count up usages spent instead of counting down usages remaining), then anything usable [stat mod+X] times per day, such as Turn Undead, is actually unlimited with a stat boosting item.

Example:
1) Cleric has 14 Cha, can use Turn Undead 5/day.
2) Use it five times, 0/day left.
3) Put on a Headband of Charisma +2, 1/day left.
4) Use that too, 0/day left.
5) Take off the headband - do you have 0 or -1 uses left?
6) If it's zero, then put back on the headband and you now have 1/day left.
7) Repeat an unlimited amount.

On the second part, my answer is still "yes, the info on spent uses remains", but it's more debatable. Essentially, are uses strictly a property of the ability itself, or a fact about the character "this character has used a Zodar wish ten minutes ago"?

Incidentally, it's not like being able to repeat Zodar wishes is necessary for any cheese. Just go ahead and Wish for a scroll with a crapload of Wishes on it, problem solved. This is obviously cheesy, but free wish abuse is always cheesy anyway - might as well be up-front about it.

[Dagearg]

On Secret of Magical Discipline used this way, it strikes me that this is essentially the same question that arises with Shapechange Zodar wishes - can numbers go below zero, and does information about no-longer-possessed abilities remain or get instantly deleted? Although in this case, since the OP already has SoMD, really only "numbers below zero" part applies.

For "can numbers go below zero", my answer is "yes, and things get weird if you assume they can't". For example, if you say that you can't have negative uses a day of something (or, mathematically equivalent, count up usages spent instead of counting down usages remaining), then anything usable [stat mod+X] times per day, such as Turn Undead, is actually unlimited with a stat boosting item.

Example:
1) Cleric has 14 Cha, can use Turn Undead 5/day.
2) Use it five times, 0/day left.
3) Put on a Headband of Charisma +2, 1/day left.
4) Use that too, 0/day left.
5) Take off the headband - do you have 0 or -1 uses left?
6) If it's zero, then put back on the headband and you now have 1/day left.
7) Repeat an unlimited amount.

On the second part, my answer is still "yes, the info on spent uses remains", but it's more debatable. Essentially, are uses strictly a property of the ability itself, or a fact about the character "this character has used a Zodar wish ten minutes ago"?

Incidentally, it's not like being able to repeat Zodar wishes is necessary for any cheese. Just go ahead and Wish for a scroll with a crapload of Wishes on it, problem solved. This is obviously cheesy, but free wish abuse is always cheesy anyway - might as well be up-front about it.

I see your point here. What about if the wording was "Each time you put on this headband, you can use Turn Undead one additional time per day."

[Xavion]

There's an easier solution to the uses thing, don't track remaining uses, track the actual thing that is happening.

You can channel energy five times per day, you've channeled energy five times today, therefore you have no uses left.
You gain a boost which somehow increases it, like by having put on a headband yesterday, this means you now have six uses per day and you've used five so you have one left.
You use it, take off the headband, and now you've got five uses per day and you've used six so you have no uses left. Even if you then somehow gained another boost, you've used it six times today so if you can only use it six times per day you can't use it again.

This only gets complicated when you assume you can repeatedly put on and take off a headband to change the amount of uses an ability (which runs into issues with it being temporary for the first 24 hours) and when you stop tracking what is actually happening and start trying to turn it into a question of negative numbers. It's far easier to just track the amount of times you've used the ability.

On the actual topic of paragon surge, this topic has been debated endlessly, many people like using it and argue it works RAW, many people argue it doesn't work RAW. Though in general I'd agree you can't use this to scum extra uses out of a feat, regardless of whether it lets you change the feat.