D&D 3.5 - How to make great deals with npcs?

[EdenNotRaven]

Dear everyone.
As the thread said, how can I make great deals with npcs as Lawful Evil character?
I need help, because I want to be good on deals with npcs.

Thank you,
Best regards everyone,
Eden

[Asmotherion]

The Apease skill comes to mind.

Other than that, Diplomacy, Bluff and potentially Intimidate could come in handy for negotiations.

[Biggus]

What kind of deals are you talking about? For buying and selling there's the Mercantile Background feat (PGtF) which allows you to sell items for 75% of their value instead of 50%, and to buy an item at 25% off once per month.

[pabelfly]

Dear everyone.
As the thread said, how can I make great deals with npcs as Lawful Evil character?
I need help, because I want to be good on deals with npcs.

Thank you,
Best regards everyone,
Eden

The best deals are where you get items for free. You're Lawful Evil, I'm sure you can come up with a few ideas on how to make it happen.

[EdenNotRaven]

The Apease skill comes to mind.

Other than that, Diplomacy, Bluff, and potentially Intimidate could come in handy for negotiations.

I mean, Deals with NPCs about ideas I have, My DM always says I'm not good at this, and I want to be better.


What kind of deals are you talking about? For buying and selling there's the Mercantile Background feat (PGtF) which allows you to sell items for 75% of their value instead of 50%, and to buy an item at 25% off once per month.

I don't talk about deals for items selling... I talking about making deals, like making deals with devils \ fiends.


The best deals are where you get items for free. You're Lawful Evil, I'm sure you can come up with a few ideas on how to make it happen.

I don't talk about deals for items selling... I talking about making deals, like making deals with devils \ fiends.

[wilphe]

You have a specific character you are playing?

Or you are just looking for general advice?



* What do you want?

* What have you got to offer?

[vasilidor]

Step 1: Have a noncombative DM.
If you have done step 1, proceed to step 2.
Step 2. make sure you have something the npc wants, be it a service your character can provide or an item in trade.
step 3. good social skills help.

[Biggus]

I don't talk about deals for items selling... I talking about making deals, like making deals with devils \ fiends.


Is this for using spells like Planar Binding or Planar ally, or just in general?

[EdenNotRaven]

You have a specific character you are playing?

Or you are just looking for general advice?



* What do you want?

* What have you got to offer?

Looking for general advice how to make deals with npcs.
I will give you example, but first, see what I'm playing.
I'm playing Human, Half-Red Dragon, Paladin of Tyranny 6, Blackguard 2, I worship Tiamat as my god, and I'm Lawful Evil character.

Me and the group goes to get deal with evil yuan-ti, that knows the location of our target, of the temple we want to go and get some legendary flute that rise undeads.
The temple of Bane.
Anyway, I didn't deal with her, because I'm not good at create deals to get something good for me of this.
I want advice how to be better at make deals.


Step 1: Have a noncombative DM.
If you have done step 1, proceed to step 2.
Step 2. make sure you have something the npc wants, be it a service your character can provide or an item in trade.
step 3. good social skills help.

1. Complete.
2. I understand.
3. I got 13 on diplomacy, and 13 on bluff.

How to be better? What I can offer?


Is this for using spells like Planar Binding or Planar ally, or just in general?

Nope, just in general.

[Biggus]

3. I got 13 on diplomacy, and 13 on bluff.


Normally those would be the skills which would make you good at dealmaking. Sense Motive would be handy too if you can afford the skill ranks, to know if someone's trying to Bluff you.

This thread has info about how to optimize Bluff and Diplomacy: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?165551-3-5-Best-way-to-optimize-Bluff-and-Diplomacy

Have you asked your DM why he says you're not good at making deals? Your character should be pretty good at it already with those skills.

[vasilidor]

A note on non-combative DMs:
They still have to consider the mindset of the NPC.
A Lawful character is more likely to keep a deal than a unlawful or chaotic one.
A good one will adhere to the spirit or wording as their alignment dictates, same with an evil one, assuming that keeping the deal does not violate their alignment.
Evil characters can keep a deal with a good outcome for others if they benefit from it.
Keeping your side of the deal will influence new deals.

[Asmotherion]

I mean, Deals with NPCs about ideas I have, My DM always says I'm not good at this, and I want to be better.



I don't talk about deals for items selling... I talking about making deals, like making deals with devils \ fiends.



I don't talk about deals for items selling... I talking about making deals, like making deals with devils \ fiends.

Well, one way to approach this would be to think with the other's perspective. What do they gain from you? What can you offer them that is lucrative to them?

For example, you could tell the NPC "I want X. How could we make it happen?". At this point, they give you an estimation of what they could possibly want from you, that they value as much as what you want from them; Now you can negotiate: "I will do this and this, and give you that, in exchange for what I want from you". You start with a Mid Low negotiation, so that they counter offer something along the lines of what you're willing to actually do. Don't start too low though, as they may find your offer insulting, and refuse any further negotiations. You can Negotiate doing a quest for them, an exchange for money/items, or a combination of both; Add a few souls to the mix, and you have yourself a very compelling offer for even the most prestigious Evil Outsider.

[icefractal]

2. I understand.In this case (the Yuan Ti) what do you have to offer, and what are you asking for?

Because I think that's the crux of it. Your skills seem sufficient, I don't think that's the problem, but you still need to propose a deal that makes sense (for both parties).

For example, one time a player decided to privately negotiate with a faction we'd been dealing with (we had a magic infrastructure thingy and were negotiating what they'd offer for shared use of it). Thing is, he offered that we'd pay them monthly, in exchange for money up front (which we didn't urgently need or anything). Well they easily agreed, that wasn't the problem, but it would have been a terrible deal for us. Luckily that PC couldn't unilaterally sign the contract, so we had a chance to revise those terms.

And no, he wasn't trying to double-cross the party, it was just miscommunication about the situation and possibly a lack of paying attention.

[EdenNotRaven]

Normally those would be the skills that would make you good at deal-making. Sense Motive would be handy too if you can afford the skill ranks, to know if someone's trying to Bluff you.

This thread has info about how to optimize Bluff and Diplomacy: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?165551-3-5-Best-way-to-optimize-Bluff-and-Diplomacy

Have you asked your DM why he says you're not good at making deals? Your character should be pretty good at it already with those skills.

My DM told me that I need to know what I want before making the deal.
But I know what I want, But I don't know how to make the deal sounds good enough.


A note on non-combative DMs:
They still have to consider the mindset of the NPC.
A Lawful character is more likely to keep a deal than an unlawful or chaotic one.
A good one will adhere to the spirit or wording as their alignment dictates, same with an evil one, assuming that keeping the deal does not violate their alignment.
Evil characters can keep a deal with a good outcome for others if they benefit from it.
Keeping your side of the deal will influence new deals.

Thank you, I noted this.


One way to approach this would be to think from the other's perspective. What do they gain from you? What can you offer them that is lucrative to them?

For example, you could tell the NPC "I want X. How could we make it happen?". At this point, they give you an estimation of what they could want from you, that they value as much as what you want from them; Now you can negotiate: "I will do this and this, and give you that, in exchange for what I want from you". You start with a Mid Low negotiation so that they counteroffer something along the lines of what you're willing to do. Don't start too low though, as they may find your offer insulting, and refuse any further negotiations. You can Negotiate to do a quest for them, an exchange for money/items, or a combination of both; Add a few souls to the mix, and you have yourself a very compelling offer for even the most prestigious Evil Outsider.

Thank you for giving me an example, it helps to understand how to make deals.
if there's any, I'll be happy to learn.


In this case (the Yuan-Ti) what do you have to offer, and what are you asking for?

Because I think that's the crux of it. Your skills seem sufficient, I don't think that's the problem, but you still need to propose a deal that makes sense (for both parties).

For example, once, a player decided to privately negotiate with a faction we'd been dealing with (we had a magic infrastructure thingy and were negotiating what they'd offer for shared use). The thing is, he offered that we'd pay them monthly, in exchange for money upfront (which we didn't urgently need or anything). Well, they easily agreed, that wasn't the problem, but it would have been a terrible deal for us. Luckily that PC couldn't unilaterally sign the contract, so we had a chance to revise those terms.

And no, he wasn't trying to double-cross the party, it was just miscommunication about the situation and possibly a lack of paying attention.

I see, thanks for the example to avoid bad deals.
if there's any other, I'll be happy to read and learn.

[H_H_F_F]

Just to clarify, since we seem to be having two strains of answers interweaving through this thread: are you looking for 3.5 mechanical solutions to your issue, or are you looking for roleplaying and decision-making advice, generally?

Assuming the latter: first, I'd suggest talking to your DM, and telling them that you're having a hard time. Maybe they'd be willing to offer more concrete advice than they have so far.

Second, when possible, I'd suggest trying to find out what the NPC wants well in advance of meeting them. Of you know you're going to have a meeting with an important NPC, ask around - does he have any enemies? Is there something she lost, and cannot find? If you come into the discussion saying "I can offer you some info on X... for a price" you might find it more efficient (or at least interesting) than going "what do you want" over and over and over again to any NPC you meet.

[King of Nowhere]

It depends strongly on the dm; with so.lme it's impossible to get good deals no matter how hard you try, others are easier to persuade.
Figuring out the npcs is also important.

My players once had a quest in the lower planes; one pc was son of a demon lord, and wanted his demon father to not interfere.
The party traveled easily through various cities; while they kept a high guard, they made clear they were not there to cause troubles. And of course the various fiends knew that if those humans were there, they were powerful enough to cast planeshift, at least. So "just direct us to our next destination and we won't cause troubles" worked.
They eventually learned that the pc's father had an interest in wizardry, and had set up a camp of similar minded individuals in a secluded spot. They learned of a succubus wizard who knew the way. The party wizard tried to recruit her. Given that the succubus wanted to study wizardry, and the wizard had a good position in the academia and could get her in, which would also give her access to many students to tempt, it was a fantastic deal. She haggled to avoid tipping her hand, but she would have come for free. She remained a loial assistant of the party wizard through all the campaign.
Eventually they reached the demon lord, and learned that he spawned the pc as part of a plan to use him as conduit to open a portal and invade the material plane. I don't remember exactly what they negotiated, though it did involve a good deal of "you can't possibly believe you can pull it off / you are nowhere near powerful enough to win"; they did give him some lesser prize, though. And they bribed some of his retinue with academic cooperation (do you have an idea how hard it is to access the latest publications in the nether regions?).

Ultimately, they left hell having accomplished all their goals, having gained a few friendly npcs, and without fighting a single intelligent being.
All because they gave people what they wanted, or at least as close as they could reasonably get to it, without risks.
EDIT: also, those were evil beings, therefore self-serving, therefore amenable to make deals that aligned with their interests. And they were powerful people, but for that they had potentially a lot to lose. The demon lord and his retinue of fiends and souls had a good life (by being on top of the food chain), but they knew a combat encounter gone wrong could end it all; it was in their interest to play it safe