How powerful would a reverse bardic inspiration be?

[PhoenixPhyre]

As in--CHA times per day (later per short rest), force an opponent to make a WIS save as a bonus action. On failure, they have to subtract a die (d6 -> d8 -> d10) from their next attack roll, saving throw, or ability check. On a success, you don't burn the use.

[Amnestic]

Cutting Words (Lore Bard) is basically this already, isn't it? Though admittedly slightly stronger since you don't have to worry about initiative orders.

Reaction instead of BA, and no save to negate.



Cutting Words
Also at 3rd level, you learn how to use your wit to distract, confuse, and otherwise sap the confidence and competence of others. When a creature that you can see within 60 feet of you makes an attack roll, an ability check, or a damage roll, you can use your reaction to expend one of your uses of Bardic Inspiration, rolling a Bardic Inspiration die and subtracting the number rolled from the creature’s roll. You can choose to use this feature after the creature makes its roll, but before the GM determines whether the attack roll or ability check succeeds or fails, or before the creature deals its damage. The creature is immune if it can’t hear you or if it’s immune to being charmed.


Cutting Words is a very good feature. Your suggested feature would also be very good, though not 'broken'.

Edit: Derp, Cutting Words doesn't work on saves! I forgot about that.

Yeah, your version would be notably more potent then, since you can wombo-combo it with either your own disabling spell (of which bards have plenty) or another character's. Still potentially not broken but definitely top tier.

[CTurbo]

The first part is basically a worse version of Cutting Words, but the last part, "On a success, you don't burn the use" makes it pretty strong.

[Mastikator]

It's very strong. Better than cutting words since it works on saving throws and isn't expended on a success. 6th level college feature I'd recon.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Cutting Words (Lore Bard) is basically this already, isn't it? Though admittedly slightly stronger since you don't have to worry about initiative orders.

Reaction instead of BA, and no save to negate.



Cutting Words is a very good feature. Your suggested feature would also be very good, though not 'broken'.

Edit: Derp, Cutting Words doesn't work on saves! I forgot about that.

Yeah, your version would be notably more potent then, since you can wombo-combo it with either your own disabling spell (of which bards have plenty) or another character's. Still potentially not broken but definitely top tier.

It's different than cutting words, as it doesn't affect damage rolls.

But yeah, it's designed to be "Cutting Words, but as a base class feature" (and Unique Cool Thing) for a class.

It's not actually designed for the bard--it's part of a homebrew class that's designed from the ground up to be a gish. Basically "bard, but focused on debuffing rather than support". Plus a "channel spell through weapon strike" ability. Oh, and a half-caster not a full caster.

[diplomancer]

College of Eloquence has that, withour requiring a Wis save, but only works on saves. But, honestly, having it work on saves is so good that you really won't miss much the other uses.

It's considered one of the best uses of Bardic Inspiration, but not so powerful as to be broken, I believe.

[KorvinStarmast]

As in--CHA times per day (later per short rest), force an opponent to make a WIS save as a bonus action. On failure, they have to subtract a die (d6 -> d8 -> d10) from their next attack roll, saving throw, or ability check. On a success, you don't burn the use. Let me suggest "CHA bonus times per day" (later per short rest).
Not sure I agree with on the "you don't burn a use" on a success.

How do you intend to treat the critical hit: is is still a crit, or does the roll reduction make the 20 the lower number and remove the crit?

You are doing something like a 10 minute (I guess? Or does this last only for the next round?) Bane (but with a higher die roll) on a creature with no concentration cost...or are you doing it "this round only!" since you are using it as a bonus action? (BI lists 10 minutes)

[PhoenixPhyre]

The current full wording (WIP) is



You can magically distort the minds of your foes. To do so, you use a bonus action on your turn to choose one creature other than yourself within 60 feet of you who can hear you. That creature must make a Wisdom saving throw against your Spellcasting DC. On a failure, they are marked for ill-luck. Once within the next minute when the creature makes an attack roll, saving throw, or ability check, you can invoke the mark without using an action. If you do so, the creature must roll a d6 (hereafter an Arcane Manipulation die) and subtract it from the die result before applying modifiers. This can convert a critical hit into a regular hit or miss. Any creature can only be marked with one manipulation die at a time.

You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Charisma modifier (a minimum of once). You regain any expended uses when you finish a long rest.

Your Arcane Manipulation die changes when you reach certain levels in this class. The die becomes a d8 at 5th level, a d10 at 10th level, and a d12 at 15th level.


So I'd mistakenly written that you keep it on a succeeded save. You don't.

It improves at level 5:


Beginning when you reach 5th level, you regain all of your expended uses of Arcane Manipulation when you finish a short or long rest.


And as the level 20 capstone:


At 20th level, targets marked by your Arcane Manipulation must subtract the die from every attack roll or ability check they make for one minute. Only one saving throw can be affected, regardless of how many they may make.


And this replaces Bardic Inspiration for this class (in fact, being able to use it as a buff is a subclass feature; another subclass gets the ability to burn the marks to impose different conditions on the enemy instead of just subtracting a die, such as dealing damage, blinding, etc.).

[KorvinStarmast]

The current full wording (WIP) ...{snip}
And this replaces Bardic Inspiration for this class (in fact, being able to use it as a buff is a subclass feature; another subclass gets the ability to burn the marks to impose different conditions on the enemy instead of just subtracting a die, such as dealing damage, blinding, etc.).
OK, solo creature, one minute "Bane" (which gets way stronger as levels go up) with no concentration, and it lasts a minute. Most combats last less than a minute. And you have to use this in combat, yes? Since you are using a bonus action, I presume that this does not work until initiative is rolled.

Am I right, or did I guess wrong on that?

If you are able to use a "bonus action" outside of combat to hammer someone's save versus some kind of charm or mind manipulation, this gets a lot stronger. (Against some creatures)

FWIW, debuffs can get very strong, maybe consider making the "debuff" tied to the proficiency bonus. Just a thought, I am sure you'll take a look at scaling.

[PhoenixPhyre]

OK, solo creature, one minute "Bane" (which gets way stronger as levels go up) with no concentration, and it lasts a minute. Most combats last less than a minute. And you have to use this in combat, yes? Since you are using a bonus action, I presume that this does not work until initiative is rolled.

Am I right, or did I guess wrong on that?

If you are able to use a "bonus action" outside of combat to hammer someone's save versus some kind of charm or mind manipulation, this gets a lot stronger. (Against some creatures)

FWIW, debuffs can get very strong, maybe consider making the "debuff" tied to the proficiency bonus. Just a thought, I am sure you'll take a look at scaling.

One thing--it's only against a single check. So it's a single-use bane, used within 1 minute. Not an ongoing effect. Basically, you get to trigger a single debuffed d20 roll, as long as they fail a save and it's within 1 minute.

I'd be fine with it out of combat as well (just like BI can be used out of combat despite requiring a bonus action). But using it against someone is pretty obvious (especially given other context where people generally know when a magical ability is being used near them) and so could very easily turn into hostilities.

[KorvinStarmast]

One thing--it's only against a single check. So it's a single-use bane, used within 1 minute. Not an ongoing effect. Basically, you get to trigger a single debuffed d20 roll, as long as they fail a save and it's within 1 minute.

I'd be fine with it out of combat as well (just like BI can be used out of combat despite requiring a bonus action). But using it against someone is pretty obvious (especially given other context where people generally know when a magical ability is being used near them) and so could very easily turn into hostilities. Got it. Not sure if I want to play test that though, since I did bard 1-20 ...

[Amnestic]

If you don't get it back on a 'failed' use then it drops off in use a bit from being REALLY REALLY good to just PRETTY good. I expect for most groups it'll just be 'fine' or 'pretty good' but for coordinated teams they'll use it to extremely potent effect. But hey, teamwork makes the dream work. Encouraging combos is good design, imo.

I wouldn't be surprised to see this being a very tasty dip option though. Even if you only get it ChaMod/LR (instead of SR) and with a d6, it's a potent boost to any spellcaster wanting to deploy it on their own, especially for Sorcs.

[Kane0]

As in--CHA times per day (later per short rest), force an opponent to make a WIS save as a bonus action. On failure, they have to subtract a die (d6 -> d8 -> d10) from their next attack roll, saving throw, or ability check. On a success, you don't burn the use.

Seems fine, though the last line is perhaps a bit unorthodox for tier 1

[PhoenixPhyre]

If you don't get it back on a 'failed' use then it drops off in use a bit from being REALLY REALLY good to just PRETTY good. I expect for most groups it'll just be 'fine' or 'pretty good' but for coordinated teams they'll use it to extremely potent effect. But hey, teamwork makes the dream work. Encouraging combos is good design, imo.

I wouldn't be surprised to see this being a very tasty dip option though. Even if you only get it ChaMod/LR (instead of SR) and with a d6, it's a potent boost to any spellcaster wanting to deploy it on their own, especially for Sorcs.

As a note, this is part of a system overhaul that includes removing multiclassing entirely. Something like it may get added in later, but it won't be dippable.

You want this ability? You're going to spend the game as a Spellblade (the class in question).

[sithlordnergal]

One thing--it's only against a single check. So it's a single-use bane, used within 1 minute. Not an ongoing effect. Basically, you get to trigger a single debuffed d20 roll, as long as they fail a save and it's within 1 minute.

I'd be fine with it out of combat as well (just like BI can be used out of combat despite requiring a bonus action). But using it against someone is pretty obvious (especially given other context where people generally know when a magical ability is being used near them) and so could very easily turn into hostilities.

I'd say you need to buff it since its a one time use. Its a Wisdom save, has a pretty limited resource pool, if the target succeeds on the save then you lose it, it requires your Bonus Action, and it only applies to one d20 roll. Yes, the uses do eventually come back on a Short Rest, but you're still looking at between 3 to 5 uses max between Short Rests. And that's only if you max out Charisma and nothing else. I'd choose one of the following changes:

A) You keep the use of Arcane Manipulation if they succeed on the Wisdom save. Personally, this is the worst option because it basically becomes guaranteed to work.

B) Remove the Wisdom save entirely, and change the Capstone a bit to add a Wisdom save against 1 minute of having all rolls debuffed. This is what I suggest doing.

C) Remove the capstone, keep the Wisdom save, have Arcane Manipulation apply to multiple d20 rolls for 1 minute. Not my favorite option, but one I think is ok.


As it currently stands, I'd probably just play a single classed Lore Bard, because its a weaker version of Cutting Words. Sure, it can change a crit and it affects saves, but its not guaranteed to work. And remember, Cutting Words is just a small part of a Lore Bard's Bardic Inspiration as a whole.

[Kane0]

It's different than cutting words, as it doesn't affect damage rolls.

But yeah, it's designed to be "Cutting Words, but as a base class feature" (and Unique Cool Thing) for a class.

It's not actually designed for the bard--it's part of a homebrew class that's designed from the ground up to be a gish. Basically "bard, but focused on debuffing rather than support". Plus a "channel spell through weapon strike" ability. Oh, and a half-caster not a full caster.

Oh, neat. Got a link?

[PhoenixPhyre]

Oh, neat. Got a link?

It's actually part of a very wip overhaul of the whole system. So very much not done. Wouldn't be too hard to back port.

If you read LaTeX formatting, the code for it is on GitHub and I can post a link to the current state. And later include a wip pdf build with my commits.

Github for the whole system (yes, I need a better name than NIH): https://github.com/bentomhall/nih-system/

The specific class is the Spellblade: https://github.com/bentomhall/nih-system/blob/main/classes/spellblade.tex

Most of the other ones are still "just what's in the SRD, but LaTeX so it builds". The Warden is what used to be the barbarian and Armsman is FKA fighter, with Brawler being FKA monk.