Monk+Fighter?

[Saelethil]

The other day I was watching a Dungeon Dudes video and one of them (can't remember which) said in passing that his preferred fix for both the Fighter & Monk would be to just mash them together into a single class. I've had this thought before but hadn't put much thought into it but after some brief thought I don't think you'd even need to trim that much from the fighter chassis to fit most of the less "mystical" monk features into it. Slow down the Martial Arts die progression, rename Ki to Stamina or Will and allow it to be spent on maneuvers using the MA die size.
Obviously more thought would need to go into it but being able to draw on inner strength to Dodge or Dash without giving up your attacks feels very Fighter, as does throwing an elbow or knee as a BA, or knowing that if you hit your target just right you might be able to stun them for a brief moment. I could go on.
But what do you all think?

[JNAProductions]

A Fighter with no subclass is still a powerful class.
Monks get more from their subclass, but aren't half-bad without.

Even ignoring what subclasses would add, this would be overpowered in combat, without really addressing out of combat issues.

[Psyren]

Combining the two classes, no - but I do see things they could learn from each other. d10 HD and an extra ASI for monk would be nice, while some kind of scaling resource for Fighter that its subclasses could key off of (Stamina sounds fine) would work well for them.

[Amechra]

Honestly, rebuilding the Monk so that the Kensei was part of the core class would be a pretty good basis for an alternate Fighter class. I'd approach it from that direction rather than just slamming the two classes together at high speeds and hoping something workable falls out.

...

If you want to fix the Monk, the simplest possible way to do it is to do two things:



Buff Unarmored Defense a little bit (a simple +1 AC would actually work wonders).
Add Perception and Sleight of Hand to their skill list and let them pick three skills instead of two.


The Unarmored Defense thing might seem a little weird, but the logic is actually pretty straightforward — right now, Monks are heavily incentivized to max out Dexterity and Wisdom at character creation because not doing so means that their first level class feature essentially boils down to "you have light armor proficiency and a free suit of leather/studded leather", which is pretty lame. Letting them start seeing the better-than-studded-leather benefits with only a Wisdom of 14 would go a long way towards making them feel less MAD.

[Quietus]

Honestly, I can see three (or four) schools of thought for this.

1 - Just play a battlemaster with the Unarmed Fighting style, and use a feat to grab TWF for the bonus action attacks. Go unarmed, wear armor. You lose the mobility options and stuns, but you also drop the wisdom requirement.

2 - Homebrew a subclass, use battlemaster as your baseline but use martial arts dice to replicate Ki. Much the same as above, but with the ability to add in "your unarmed attacks are magical" at level 7, and possibly consider whether we can get some other thematic abilities work in, like deflect arrows and evasion.

3 - My preferred (theorycrafted) monk fix - let the player pick whether they are Dex- or Wis- focused at level 1. Key everything off that one stat; unarmored defense is now (stat)+proficiency. Your save DCs all use that one stat. Taking the monk and making them SAD would go a long way, I think, and would make them more multiclass-friendly outside of Ki issues.


I've also got a secondary "Would love to test this" monk fix of stripping all Ki abilities from them, completely. Take anything that required spending Ki previously and designate those as 'ki actions'. Monks can perform one ki action per turn. Simultaneously solves the issue of running out of gas, and the stun-spam. I'd probably combine this with #3 above to make a SAD monk rewrite that always feels monk-ish.

[JNAProductions]

Honestly, I can see three (or four) schools of thought for this.

1 - Just play a battlemaster with the Unarmed Fighting style, and use a feat to grab TWF for the bonus action attacks. Go unarmed, wear armor. You lose the mobility options and stuns, but you also drop the wisdom requirement.

2 - Homebrew a subclass, use battlemaster as your baseline but use martial arts dice to replicate Ki. Much the same as above, but with the ability to add in "your unarmed attacks are magical" at level 7, and possibly consider whether we can get some other thematic abilities work in, like deflect arrows and evasion.

3 - My preferred (theorycrafted) monk fix - let the player pick whether they are Dex- or Wis- focused at level 1. Key everything off that one stat; unarmored defense is now (stat)+proficiency. Your save DCs all use that one stat. Taking the monk and making them SAD would go a long way, I think, and would make them more multiclass-friendly outside of Ki issues.


I've also got a secondary "Would love to test this" monk fix of stripping all Ki abilities from them, completely. Take anything that required spending Ki previously and designate those as 'ki actions'. Monks can perform one ki action per turn. Simultaneously solves the issue of running out of gas, and the stun-spam. I'd probably combine this with #3 above to make a SAD monk rewrite that always feels monk-ish.

Issue with your secondary "Ki Actions" is Patient Defense.
A two-level dip for BA Dodging is monstrously good for defense, if it's not limited.

[Boverk]

Issue with your secondary "Ki Actions" is Patient Defense.
A two-level dip for BA Dodging is monstrously good for defense, if it's not limited.

Table-changes I've seen are making Step of the Wind not cost ki points (I agree with you on the perma-dodge bonus action being a bit much)

[Amechra]

A good way of making perma-dodge less of an issue would be to drop Patient Defense and instead let you use Martial Arts or Flurry of Blows after taking the Attack or Dodge action.

[CTurbo]

Monks REALLY need an extra ASI perhaps more than any class.

People have been trying to make Barbs, Monks, and Rangers different Fighter subclasses since the beginning. I don't think it's necessary.

[Amnestic]

Comboing Fighter+Monk as a single class would blow Barbs and Rogues out of the water, so unless you were looking to do other combos (Rogue+Monk? Fighter+Barb?) too then it's probably going too far, and if you're starting to gestalt that much stuff then you're looking at a different game.

I've given monks:-
Extra ASI at 6th
Perfect Self (their current capstone) is moved to 9th level and restores ki=1/3rd monk level instead of 4.
New capstone is +2 to all stats ('Ascendant Form').
When they Patient Defense/Step of the Wind they get to make one Martial Arts attack still, so the 'baseline' BA is one attack, and then a ki point gets you SotW, PD, or FoB on top of that.

[Melil12]

I would also take diamond soul and spread it out a few levels 11/14/17/20 … pick a saving throw and gain proficiency.

[Quietus]

Issue with your secondary "Ki Actions" is Patient Defense.
A two-level dip for BA Dodging is monstrously good for defense, if it's not limited.

Agree completely, it's the biggest point against that idea. I'd have to either put it on its own limiter (prof/day?), or use Amechra's idea below, either by allowing flurry of blows after it (would require some thought to ensure this doesn't have its own issues), or just straight up decoupling the Martial Arts bonus action attack from the attack action, so you could dodge as an action and get one punch as a bonus. Given that unarmed strikes don't qualify you for sneak attack, I feel like limiting you to a single relatively weak attack would be a reasonable enough tradeoff.

[Psyren]

Monks REALLY need an extra ASI perhaps more than any class.

People have been trying to make Barbs, Monks, and Rangers different Fighter subclasses since the beginning. I don't think it's necessary.

This.



If you want to fix the Monk, the simplest possible way to do it is to do two things:



Buff Unarmored Defense a little bit (a simple +1 AC would actually work wonders).
Add Perception and Sleight of Hand to their skill list and let them pick three skills instead of two.


Honestly, an extra ASI plus the first-level feat would cover both of these, though I do agree Perception should be on their class list to help background choice be a bit more flexible.


I would also take diamond soul and spread it out a few levels 11/14/17/20 … pick a saving throw and gain proficiency.

If you're going to do this, they should still end up being good at every saving throw by 14 (15 at the absolute latest) like they do now. Paladins essentially achieve this at 6!

[Witty Username]

Honestly, an extra ASI plus the first-level feat would cover both of these, though I do agree Perception should be on their class list to help background choice be a bit more flexible.


No blue text on my phone but, what, you can't work in Sailor into every monk backstory you make?

[Psyren]

No blue text on my phone but, what, you can't work in Sailor into every monk backstory you make?

Looks like I'll have to, the new Monk still doesn't have Perception 🙃

[Amnestic]

No blue text on my phone but, what, you can't work in Sailor into every monk backstory you make?

Don't even have to go that far. Customising backgrounds is a standard rule, not even a variant. The skills in backgrounds are more like suggestions than requirements. Nothing stopping you from being an acolyte at your monastery who was forced to sit on the walls watching the horizon for hours on end which taught you how to look real good.

[Joe the Rat]

Switching fighters from an assortment of random abilites to a common SR pool has promise sounds like a fun tweak. Now the calculus of deciding if you want to blow both your stamina points on action surges, or hold one back for second wind comes into play.


I'm getting more of the mind that ki/spirit-using fighter sublcass could make an interesting addition to the game. You don't necessarily get the Martial Arts package (You get extra attacks+ and all the weapons, you don't need flurry), but goodies like unarmored defense, stunning strike, or whatever could fit into a subclass without being too bonkers would be fun.

[Amechra]

Honestly, I prefer the Monk's method of getting a ton of attacks over having a scaling Extra Attack (if only because you don't have to wait until T3 to attack three times in a turn). You'd need to do some sanity checking to prevent people from just slamming the "I attack three times with a greatsword this turn" button at 2nd level... but having your ki abilities be somewhat customized by your Fighting Style seems like a good idea.

I kinda like the post-Tasha's Kensei progression where you get Flurry of Blows at 2nd level (maybe make that TWF's special thing?), Ki-Fueled Attack at 3rd (letting you make a BA attack with a weapon if you spent a ki point during your action), and Focused Aim/Deft Strike at 5th/6th (giving you a reliable way of spending ki during an Attack action, ensuring that you get three attacks while "running hot").

[Skrum]

The table I play at is very free with +dX weapons, such that most characters get one within their first 10 games (we have a lot of character churn). To make things more equitable, we've made up similar items for monks; like an anklet or amulet that adds +1 and 1d6 lightning damage to natural attacks and unarmed strikes.

It is a night and day difference for monks. They still have worse defense than a dedicated tank, but they make up for it with excellent mobility and rather devastating damage.

While I still think monks should get more Ki, especially in the 2-7 level range, the extra damage dice fixed a lot. I.e,. if you're looking to boost a monk, double their unarmed strike dice. 2d4, then 2d6, then 2d8, etc. It's amazing what a difference it made. Really made them feel like a solid, not gimmicky class that bring its own flavor to the table.