Games that handle cosmic power and normal guys too

[SimonMoon6]

One of the main reasons I love the DC Heroes RPG (by Mayfair) is that it handles (quickly and easily) beings of phenomenal cosmic power (literal gods or figurative gods such as the pre-Crisis Superman). It handles them just as easily as ordinary people who no special abilities. I haven't found any other games that can do this.

Are there any other such games that actually have some crunch to them?

For example, games I'm not counting are: Champions (doesn't do anything easily), D&D (doesn't do high power easily), GURPS (doesn't really want to do high powered games), FUDGE (doesn't have any real crunch)...

Games I know about but don't love: TSR's Marvel Superheroes RPG (with FASERIP)

[Metastachydium]

In either 3.5 or Pathfinder, are there any rules/flaws/traits/etc that would allow a person to be nearsighted? And if so, are there any ways to deal with such problems (glasses/spectacles/etc or spells that cure such vision problems)?

In 3.5 there is the Nearsighted trait in UA, giving a bonus to Search and a penalty to Spot. Technically, you can flavour a masterwork tool of Spot as glasses to overcome the latter, too.

[Psyren]

I think the thread may have gotten changed over completely in an edit?

OP have you tried Mutants & Masterminds? I think it can do both cosmic and street-level heroes.

[Drynwyn]

Seconding Mutants and Masterminds. You also might try Burning Wheel, which is designed for more of a low-fantasy vibe than superhero style play. It uses a 'shade' system- for any given stat or skill, a given creature is either black-shaded, grey-shaded, or white-shaded. Damage and armor (natural or otherwise) is similarly shaded, with the top of the black damage scale being the bottom of the grey damage scale (and so on).

[gatorized]

Prowlers and Paragons.

[Quertus]

One of the main reasons I love the DC Heroes RPG (by Mayfair) is that it handles (quickly and easily) beings of phenomenal cosmic power (literal gods or figurative gods such as the pre-Crisis Superman). It handles them just as easily as ordinary people who no special abilities. I haven't found any other games that can do this.

Are there any other such games that actually have some crunch to them?

For example, games I'm not counting are: Champions (doesn't do anything easily), D&D (doesn't do high power easily), GURPS (doesn't really want to do high powered games), FUDGE (doesn't have any real crunch)...

Games I know about but don't love: TSR's Marvel Superheroes RPG (with FASERIP)

Ok, first off, the elephant in the room:



Games I know about but don't love: TSR's Marvel Superheroes RPG (with FASERIP)

… that’s fair. It’s not a system I expect many to love - especially those accustomed to “modern” systems.

Hmmm… second elephant in the room: Mutants and Masterminds, aka (apparently) DC Heroes RPG with some serial numbers filled off. Well, not exactly. For example, M&M Heat Vision isn’t based on Int, and there isn’t really any way to make that happen. So it’s a really related game, with an unsurprisingly similar amount of crunch.

Now, before I answer the question, I need to ask what you mean. Because you claim that “DC Heroes RPG (by Mayfair)…. handles… beings of phenomenal cosmic power”, and that D&D doesn’t. Yet DC “handles” it by saying Joe Average could survive being punched by Superman (instead of… what’s that gory new show that explains my response to how that should look?), while D&D high level characters (let alone “Cosmic powers”) make s’mores armies feel kinda superfluous.

So I gotta ask, given that to my mind D&D handles high power better than M&M or DC does, what exactly you mean by “handles” it? That will shape how I answer the question.

[solidork]

It's a very esoteric answer, but Chuubo's Marvelous Wish-Granting Engine is kind of designed for this. On a setting level, the default conceit is pastoral slice of life with the characters as fledgling gods - the deliberate spotlight placed on day to day things means that you're in conflicts where being able to work miracles isn't as much of an obvious benefit the way something like dungeon fantasy or superheroes would be.

A starting character might be able to make wishes or erase anything from existence, but in a lot of circumstances you're going to be better off relying on your mundane skills because the way that system works you can guarantee that what you're doing will advance your goals or even make your life better.

When it comes to mundane actions, in some senses mortals are on even footing with many miraculous characters - unless they're going up against The Ace, whose whole shtick is that they have powers that make them good at just about anything mundane that they try.

[Thane of Fife]

Yet DC “handles” it by saying Joe Average could survive being punched by Superman (instead of… what’s that gory new show that explains my response to how that should look?), while D&D high level characters (let alone “Cosmic powers”) make s’mores armies feel kinda superfluous.


Why do you say that? My recollection of DC Heroes is that Superman would pretty trivially knock out or kill Joe Average in one punch.

[Quertus]

Why do you say that? My recollection of DC Heroes is that Superman would pretty trivially knock out or kill Joe Average in one punch.

Ah, I've only glanced at DC Heroes, never played it, but I'm told (and it seems) it's similar to M&M, in which... Joe Average could literally randomly tank a blow from Superman.

I would prefer a system where, if Superman punches Joe Average at full strength, you're rolling, not to see if Joe Average survived, not to see if there's enough of him left to identify, not even to see if there's enough of him left to pass a DNA test, but to see how many millions of other people died from the shockwave.

That would be a system that handles cosmic power, in my book.

[Thane of Fife]

Ah, I've only glanced at DC Heroes, never played it, but I'm told (and it seems) it's similar to M&M, in which... Joe Average could literally randomly tank a blow from Superman.

I would prefer a system where, if Superman punches Joe Average at full strength, you're rolling, not to see if Joe Average survived, not to see if there's enough of him left to identify, not even to see if there's enough of him left to pass a DNA test, but to see how many millions of other people died from the shockwave.

That would be a system that handles cosmic power, in my book.

In DC Heroes (looking at my 1st edition books), Superman has Dexterity 26 and Strength 50. Joe Average would have a 2 in everything. If Superman decided to punch Joe Average, he would check the Action table and see that for 26 vs 2, he needs to roll a 3 or higher on 2d10 to hit. Assuming a hit (but not a roll >11, which would do extra damage), Superman would go to the effects table and compare his Strength 50 against Joe's Body of 2. This equates to 45 points of damage, so if Supes was in Killing Combat, Joe would be reduced to negative 43 and be splattered. Probably, Superman wouldn't do that, so Joe would only be reduced to -2 and would survive.

Now, let's suppose Superman was in a bad mood and decides to attack a whole bunch of average people. Using the multi attack rules, he can attack a bunch of people with only a column shift penalty. The table in the book only goes up to 125 people per action, but it follows an easy pattern, so let's be generous to Superman and let him attack more. He should be able to attack about 1000 people and still hit on a 3+. He'll do less damage, but it's still something like 24 points each, more than enough. Now, of course, there's a limitation here, which is that all of these people have to be within Superman's movement. Fortunately, Superman has a Flight of 45, which lets him fly from the Sun to Pluto and back four times each turn. All of these attacks are handled with one roll, so let's say that, barring a roll of 2, Joe Average and his 999 closest friends in the Solar System are knocked out.

I believe these rules were changed to be a little less favorable to Superman in future editions of the game, but still.

[Reversefigure4]

Ah, I've only glanced at DC Heroes, never played it, but I'm told (and it seems) it's similar to M&M, in which... Joe Average could literally randomly tank a blow from Superman.

I would prefer a system where, if Superman punches Joe Average at full strength, you're rolling, not to see if Joe Average survived, not to see if there's enough of him left to identify, not even to see if there's enough of him left to pass a DNA test, but to see how many millions of other people died from the shockwave.

That would be a system that handles cosmic power, in my book.

DC Heroes, originally made in 1985, works very differently to the similar-name-different-game DC Adventures, which uses Mutants and Masterminds as it's core. I can't speak for Heroes, but I can tell you DC Adventures / Mutants and Masterminds (3rd Edition), made around 2010, doesn't work anything like this, because it works on comic book logic instead.

Superman (Str 19) punches Joe Average. He hits him with ease. Joe (Toughness +0), needs to make a DC34 Toughness check (not possible, even on a 20). As an unnamed minion, Joe fails to the worst degree possible. He is only KOed, because Superman can't kill him unless the GM is using the optional lethality rules (at which point Supes 'merely' kills him).

If Joe is an important NPC - say, a PC's brother, we might treat him like a full character instead of a minion. On rolling his 20, Joe succeeds automatically and passes, because 20s always pass, so Supes only strikes the most glancing of blows. On a 19, Joe doesn't pass automatically, but only fails by 3 tiers, so he's staggered. It'll take a second hit from Superman to knock him out.

If Superman instead punches super-trained-but-still-ordinary-human Batman, Batman has a +8 Toughness (assuming Supes hits him, which isn't remotely a safe assumption). Batman rolls an average roll of 10, fails by three tiers, and is staggered. He just bounces off the wall and gets up, bruised but still ready to go... because that's exactly what happens in a comic book when Superman punches Batman. Realistically, Batman should be immediately crushed into a pulp (at the very least) because he's hit by a man strong enough to move a planet. But that'd be a very dull roleplaying game, so instead Batman just staggers up for round 2.

And that's with the 'official' stats of Batman and Superman at quite different power levels. In actual gameplay, you probably play them both as Power Level 10 characters, making it vastly more likely Bats shrugs off the blow. I think M&M does a great job handling cosmic power alongside normal guys, but it definitely handles them as 'Batman and Superman can meaningfully be on the same team and contribute to the story somewhat equally', not 'this is a realistic depiction of what happens when a guy who can push planets punches someone'.

[gatorized]

Standard power level, Superman's might is 12d, average guy has 2d in everything and 2 health. His highest possible roll for toughness is 4. Superman can use the auto success rule for a roll of 6 on his attack. Average guy takes 2 damage on his best possible defense roll and is defeated.

[Quertus]

“Superman has 19 strength” most closely matches the version of DC RPG I read / skimmed. I thought it was slightly lower - maybe Superman is only power level 16 or so?

Anyway, that’s why I wanted a definition of what “handles” means in context. Because “Superman can swing a planet at Batman, land a solid hit, and not insta-gib bats” disqualifies a system from my definition of “handling” Cosmic power.

I’m guessing “works in a Gamist sense, but don’t think about it too hard - if you have problems with HP, it’ll definitely fall apart” might be more the definition of “handles” we’re working with.

In which case… Masks lacks crunch (I think), the homebrew Paradox is available to no one, Marvel faserip is known and not loved, leaving M&M and other Marvel systems (that are IMO not even as good as faserip) as the only ones I can think of to add to the discussion that might qualify.

[gatorized]

“Superman has 19 strength” most closely matches the version of DC RPG I read / skimmed. I thought it was slightly lower - maybe Superman is only power level 16 or so?

Anyway, that’s why I wanted a definition of what “handles” means in context. Because “Superman can swing a planet at Batman, land a solid hit, and not insta-gib bats” disqualifies a system from my definition of “handling” Cosmic power.

I’m guessing “works in a Gamist sense, but don’t think about it too hard - if you have problems with HP, it’ll definitely fall apart” might be more the definition of “handles” we’re working with.

In which case… Masks lacks crunch (I think), the homebrew Paradox is available to no one, Marvel faserip is known and not loved, leaving M&M and other Marvel systems (that are IMO not even as good as faserip) as the only ones I can think of to add to the discussion that might qualify.

Simulationsism isn't appropriate for super heroes in general. When superman swings a planet, what is he pushing off of?

[Reversefigure4]

“Superman has 19 strength” most closely matches the version of DC RPG I read / skimmed. I thought it was slightly lower - maybe Superman is only power level 16 or so?

Official DC Adventures puts Superman as Power Level 15, Batman at Power Level 12. In M&M, this means Superman's To-Hit and Damage combined caps at 30, so he has a +11 to punch and a difficulty of 34 to save against his punches. Batman, by contrast, is a difficulty 24 to hit and a Toughness of +8 to save (although it's worth noting you're expected to fail Toughness saves routinely, the question is how much you fail them by). If Batman were the same Power Level as Superman as he might be in an actual tabletop game, he'd probably be a difficulty 30 to hit (so Supes needs to roll a 19) and a Toughness of +10.

I certainly can't think of any superhero systems that handle cosmic power on a realistic level - where Superman cracks the planet and kills millions in the shockwaves of his punch - because those don't lend themselves to interesting superhero games (this is the kind of thing where the Flash needs to buy immunity to friction and immunity for his costume or burst into flame when he runs, a level of detail most superhero games don't bother with. And those that do rarely bother with the idea that his 'realistic' sonic boom inadvertently kills all the civilians in the room anyway).

I also can't think of any non-superhero games that qualify for your standard. What games need cosmic level rules that work like that and rules for normal guys? If your game is about planet cracking cosmic gods, do you really need a ruleset for ordinary mortals? Doesn't "Cosmic Man does whatever he pleases against them" really cover everything you'd need to actually play the game? The only point of comparison I can think of is really something like DND, which can in theory be about both - Level 1 Commoners use the same basic universe building blocks of Proficiency bonuses and Hit Points that a mega-epic level wizard uses - but in practice the game is notorious for 'breaking' at high levels, because it simply can't handle the difference in power and still create stories that involve both as PCs contributing.

[Quertus]

Official DC Adventures puts Superman as Power Level 15, Batman at Power Level 12. In M&M, this means Superman's To-Hit and Damage combined caps at 30, so he has a +11 to punch and a difficulty of 34 to save against his punches. Batman, by contrast, is a difficulty 24 to hit and a Toughness of +8 to save (although it's worth noting you're expected to fail Toughness saves routinely, the question is how much you fail them by). If Batman were the same Power Level as Superman as he might be in an actual tabletop game, he'd probably be a difficulty 30 to hit (so Supes needs to roll a 19) and a Toughness of +10.

I certainly can't think of any superhero systems that handle cosmic power on a realistic level - where Superman cracks the planet and kills millions in the shockwaves of his punch - because those don't lend themselves to interesting superhero games (this is the kind of thing where the Flash needs to buy immunity to friction and immunity for his costume or burst into flame when he runs, a level of detail most superhero games don't bother with. And those that do rarely bother with the idea that his 'realistic' sonic boom inadvertently kills all the civilians in the room anyway).

I also can't think of any non-superhero games that qualify for your standard. What games need cosmic level rules that work like that and rules for normal guys? If your game is about planet cracking cosmic gods, do you really need a ruleset for ordinary mortals? Doesn't "Cosmic Man does whatever he pleases against them" really cover everything you'd need to actually play the game? The only point of comparison I can think of is really something like DND, which can in theory be about both - Level 1 Commoners use the same basic universe building blocks of Proficiency bonuses and Hit Points that a mega-epic level wizard uses - but in practice the game is notorious for 'breaking' at high levels, because it simply can't handle the difference in power and still create stories that involve both as PCs contributing.

Marvel faserip talks about the flashing Flash problem, and even allows you to build the speedster who burns their clothes and/or themselves (but grants immunity to such problems by default to PCs). And handles Aunt May.

D&D has rules for the 7th son of a noble (or simple "farm boy") starting his career, all the way up to deities / Immortals. Both contributing? I've been in (at an actual table) and written (as single-author fiction) stories where both contribute - it's just a matter of contributing with "player skills" (ie, by thinking) rather than by sheer brute force. Regardless, both "contributing" in the same story is like Albert Einstein and your 5-year-old niece both contributing on building a Nuke: why would anyone ever expect that? :smallconfused::smallamused:

Thankfully, the OP didn't ask for games that mandated the expectation of Einstein and your 5-year-old niece both contributing, let alone being on equal footing, in building a nuke; in Superman and Joe Average both being in the same party and both contributing equally. The OP only mandated that the system handle both. And D&D and Marvel faserip do handle both, as (if only by the definitions I think we're using) does M&M & DC.

[NichG]

I also can't think of any non-superhero games that qualify for your standard. What games need cosmic level rules that work like that and rules for normal guys? If your game is about planet cracking cosmic gods, do you really need a ruleset for ordinary mortals? Doesn't "Cosmic Man does whatever he pleases against them" really cover everything you'd need to actually play the game? The only point of comparison I can think of is really something like DND, which can in theory be about both - Level 1 Commoners use the same basic universe building blocks of Proficiency bonuses and Hit Points that a mega-epic level wizard uses - but in practice the game is notorious for 'breaking' at high levels, because it simply can't handle the difference in power and still create stories that involve both as PCs contributing.

Settings with extremely narrow cosmic powers could use this. Like, here's a character who has the ability to know the absolute true answer to any question they think to ask. Here's another character who can dodge things or in general reflexively react to threats from the best point to do so anywhen in their personal timeline, past or future. Here's a character who literally cannot fail to exist in the universe, without the universe itself ending first. Here's a character who can kill any entity of any scale whose true name they know. Any of those powers could scale to cosmic threats and consequences, but any of them could also be blindsided by a street level threat targeting them in the right way.

[Jakinbandw]

One of the main reasons I love the DC Heroes RPG (by Mayfair) is that it handles (quickly and easily) beings of phenomenal cosmic power (literal gods or figurative gods such as the pre-Crisis Superman). It handles them just as easily as ordinary people who no special abilities. I haven't found any other games that can do this.

Are there any other such games that actually have some crunch to them?

For example, games I'm not counting are: Champions (doesn't do anything easily), D&D (doesn't do high power easily), GURPS (doesn't really want to do high powered games), FUDGE (doesn't have any real crunch)...

Games I know about but don't love: TSR's Marvel Superheroes RPG (with FASERIP)

Not sure how much crunch you want, but you could try messing around with the Strange FATE SRD.

http://mrtact.github.io/StrangeFateCore/

[Telok]

.... pre-Crisis Superman). It handles them just as easily as ordinary people who no special abilities. I haven't found any other games that can do this.

Are there any other such games that actually have some crunch to them?

For example, games I'm not counting are: Champions (doesn't do anything easily), D&D (doesn't do high power easily)....


D&D has rules for the 7th son of a noble (or simple "farm boy") starting his career, all the way up to deities / Immortals. ..... The OP only mandated that the system handle both. And D&D and Marvel faserip do handle both, as (if only by the definitions I think we're using) does M&M & DC.

Handle both "easily" and with notable amounts of crunch. The issue is that "easily".

Personally I think Champions is sufficently "easy", but I also understand people outside its clique having a fear of it's math (the books don't give the best explanations & shortcuts). D&D 5e I'd think qualifies simply because PCs don't get to the top level of power, therefore as NPC stat blocks they get numbers set at whatever the GM wants and their other abilities are the same. Can't get easier than making up whatever you want. Lasers & Feelings is out by not having enough crunch by anyone's standards of "crunch". Twilight 2000 & Aliens are out for not doing demi-gods...

Call of Cthulhu! PCs are ordinary people and it has gods & demi-gods. Not, you know, playable character gods & demi-gods.... but it has them.

[TaiLiu]

Some Powered by the Apocalypse games are pretty good at this.

The best one I know of is Fellowship. You can play the equivalent of Gandalf (The Harbinger) or a hobbit (The Halfling) or even just some dude (The Squire). Gandalf isn't a cosmic power, admittedly, but he is significantly more powerful and knowledgeable than those he travels with.

To a lesser extent, Monster of the Week lets you do this, too. You can play the chosen one (The Chosen) or a powerful angelic being (The Divine) alongside just some dude (The Mundane).

[gatorized]

{Scrubbed}

[Imbalance]

HeroClix with scenarios?