Looking for a good race and prestige class for a rogueish type.

[Adumbration]

So. This is a one-shot high-level session. These are the limits.

-It must be level 10. (Level adjustment may change this)
-We have 49 000 gp to use, maximum of 12 500 gp per item

That's it. (Plus, of course, no cheesing, pun-pun etc etc. I wouldn't even want such a thing. I want a balanced character.)

I think I'm going for a sneaky fellow, who likes to use magic items. The problem is, I'm a bit new to DnD, and I wouldn't really want to play the generic halfling rogue. So. Is there a good race for this purpose, apart from halfling? Any good class/prestige class?

(I don't have any books, going over to DM's house tomorrow to make the character. Not sure what books he has, either, so just post whatever you have in mind and I'll ask if he has it)

[streakster]

Three words:

Pixie. Pixie. Pixie.

Greater Invisibility at will? Flight? Polymorph self? Modify Memory? Host of other useful spell-likes? Yes, please!

You'll just need the monster manual. I guarantee your DM has that. It' not cheese - there's a +4 LA. Worth every XP point, though. Make up the XP by roleplaying and taking risks. Oh, and ask about level buy-off.

The pixie race rocks.

[Indon]

For using magic items, you could go with something with a high Charisma, because it bolsters your UMD.

Heck, a high enough UMD and you could have a character running around with a host of wacky items suited for other classes, races, and even alignments!

I'm sure there's an elf which has an appropriate -2/+2 combination with no LA.

[ocato]

Whisper Gnomes are popular, if you have access to Races of Stone. They are the same as gnomes, except they also get a +2 to DEX, -2 to CHA (easily offset by the mage-blooded template, -2 WIS, +2 CHA, no change in LA), and get 30' of movement instead of 20', 60' of darkvision, and +2 to spot checks. They lose their +2 to Alchemy, Illusion saves, and +1 to illusion DCs though. However, they get message, silence (self only), and mage hand as spell like abilities instead of prestigidation, dancing lights, and speak with burrowing mammals.

If this isn't available, I would rethink your disdain for the noble and classic halfling.

[RTGoodman]

I'm sure there's an elf which has an appropriate -2/+2 combination with no LA.

Well, there's always the Magic-Blooded template (not sure where it's from) that gives -2 Wis, +2 Cha (if I remember correctly).


For a build, you could go Rogue (race doesn't really matter) and maybe take a level or three in Shadowdancer (http://systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/shadowdancer.html). It gets some pretty nice stuff, including Hide in Plain Sight.

[Duke of URL]

I'll second the Pixie. Rogues really don't get much per character level -- more skill points, additional sneak attack dice, and some occasional situational abilities.

Here's the trade-offs... you lose:

4d6 HP (ouch) +3 BAB +2 Reflex, +1 Fort/Will +2d6 sneak attack 4 max ranks in skills improved uncanny dodge an additional +1 to trap sense one rogue special ability

You gain:

greater invisibility at will Other 1/day spell-like abilities +8 DEX (offsets the 4 ranks lost in DEX-related skills and more than offsets the BAB and Reflex loss) +6 INT and CHA (almost offsets the lost ranks for INT and CHA skills; +3 skill point per level too!) +4 WIS (partially offsets the WIS skills and more than offsets the Will loss) -4 STR (ouch) 60' fly (good) movement
Dodge and Weapon Finesse as bonus feats
DR 10/cold iron SR 21 +1 natural armor +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks

Works for me. You're more fragile, but I'd say far more effective than a 10th level Human Rogue (with less damage output). And flavorful, too.

PrCs aren't too likely at level 6, though. :smallwink:

[Adumbration]

Hmm. I'm starting to lean towards the pixie, but there are still a few problems in that.

How on earth will I be able to carry all the magic items? I've understood that pixies can carry precious little. Can they carry a Handy Haversack or a Bag of holding?

[Duke of URL]

Carrying limits are 3/4 normal (like other small characters) -- size-wise, they're comparable to halflings.

Now, STR isn't going to be your best stat, so a HHH would be a very good idea, in my opinion.

On the plus side, your DEX is going to be so good that you won;t be using any weighty armor, and weapons will be 1/2 normal weight.

[RTGoodman]

Hmm. I'm starting to lean towards the pixie, but there are still a few problems in that.

How on earth will I be able to carry all the magic items? I've understood that pixies can carry precious little. Can they carry a Handy Haversack or a Bag of holding?

If I remember correctly, Small character actually have an advantage in carrying capacity - their carrying capacity is 3/4 that of a Medium character, but their equipment weighs HALF of its normal weight. And if there's still a problem, a Handy Haversack or Bags of Holding will work fine.

[mostlyharmful]

You can pick up a belt of strengh to offset the penalty, and pixies are only small not tiny, so you'll have the same capacity as a halfling or gnome. with the money you save on invis, flight and alllll the rest you can afford it.

realistically if the DM allows them they're the best race for a rogue if you don't mind LA. And buy-off isn't available until 12 so you wont run into that on a one shot

[Person_Man]

I'm very anti-Pixie for a mid level game. The LA is just too high.

Consider:

Beguiler (PHBII)
Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b)
Psychic Assassin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d)
Adept of Darkness (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57352)
Spellthief (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a) (looks weak, but actually has all sorts of wierd powerful combos when used with the right party)

As for race:

Whisper Gnome (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=3)
Neraph (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040613a&page=2)

[streakster]

realistically if the DM allows them they're the best race for a rogue if you don't mind LA. And buy-off isn't available until 12 so you wont run into that on a one shot

Really? Getting two levels in a one shot isn't that rare. At least not in our games.

[Duke of URL]

Really? Getting two levels in a one shot isn't that rare. At least not in our games.

Still won't matter, at least not much.

LA buyoff is only good for the long haul anyway; you'd be losing one effective level to gain future levels more quickly. In theory, if you are gaining two levels in this one-shot, you might see some benefit if you're going far enough over those two levels to recover the lost XP, so that you'd be Rogue 9/LA+3 instead of Rogue 8/LA+4, but that would only kick in very, very late.

[streakster]

Ah, true. Je suis idiot.

[Chronos]

If I remember correctly, Small character actually have an advantage in carrying capacity - their carrying capacity is 3/4 that of a Medium character, but their equipment weighs HALF of its normal weight.Some equipment is lighter, some isn't. But you'll want a Handy Haversack anyway; those are just too useful, and rogues want to carry a lot of stuff.


Spellthief (looks weak, but actually has all sorts of wierd powerful combos when used with the right party)If you think Spellthief looks weak, I'd hate to run into something you think looks strong, down a dark alley. They're almost as roguey as a rogue, plus all of their magical abilities.

Also, when looking at the racial bonuses for a pixie, remember to compare them to the bonuses for a halfling or other likely race, not just to a human. And you might also want to take a look at the Dark template (Tome of Magic, I think), which gives a whole lot of good stuff, for the low price of +1 LA (much easier to buy off, if that's an option). From memory, it's got Hide in Plain Sight, darkvision, +8 Hide, +6 Move Silently, +10 speed, and some cold resistance.

[Hawriel]

A handy haversack is a backpack is it not? If so how is a pixie going to wear one on their backs?

[FinalJustice]

[Off - Topic question]
Where's this 'Magic-Blooded' template?! :smallbiggrin:
[/Off - Topic]

[Toric]

A handy haversack is a backpack is it not? If so how is a pixie going to wear one on their backs?

Simple. Just get a handy fannypack instead. :smallwink:

[Ganurath]

A handy haversack is a backpack is it not? If so how is a pixie going to wear one on their backs?Backpakcs tend to have adjustable armstraps, and most magic items accomodate the form of the wearer within reasonable limits. Odds are a pixie's haversack has clasps for the armstraps to detach them so it's easy to work around the wings.

[Toliudar]

Simple. Just get a handy fannypack instead. :smallwink:

Oddly enough, that's exactly what a pixie bard in my party had custom-made for himself!

[Guy_Whozevl]

If you want to optimize that sneak attack, take the Dark template from Tome of Magic as a previous poster suggested. The only thing you will be losing if you go straight Rogue is the special ability they get at 10th level. If that concerns you, get a Collar of Umbral Metamorphasis that gives you the template for 10 min/day for about 11k. Not too bad of a deal. A Swordsage dip at level nine might also be a good idea, if only to pick up Assassin's Stance and some useful manuvers (teleport 60ft through shadows, yes please). The Beguiler from PHB2 is also Rogue-ish, with actual magic thrown in on top of UMD.

[Doresain]

i suggest either goblin or kobold...with goblins or kobolds

[drunkmonk]

If you dont plan on using your sneak attack - be a beguiler. Lots of fun with a LA of +4 you would be a 6th level beguiler. 3rd level spells, trapfinding, silent spell, + other goodies.

DM

[SoD]

For anyone who's interested, the books I have are as follows:

Players Handbook I
Players Handbook II
Dungeon Masters Guide I
Dungeon Masters Guide II
Monster Manual I
Monster Manual II
Monster Manual III
Monster Manual IV
Arms and Equipment Guide
Book of Challenges
Book of Exalted Deeds
Book of Vile Darkness
Deities and Demigods
Feind Folio
Magic of Incarnum
Manual of the Planes
Oriental Adventures
Savage Species
Unearthed Arcana
Complete Adventurer
Complete Arcane
Complete Champion
Complete Divine
Complete Mage
Complete Scoundrel
Complete Warrior
Races of Destiny
Races of the Dragon
Races of Stone
Races of the Wild
Heroes of Horror
Libris Mortis
Lords of Madness
Feindish Codex II
Races of Eberron
Underdark
Also a lot of crystal keep indexes (slightly outdated)


And yes, I am the DM. What? You think I'd just randomly join a thread and talk about the books I have? Oh, and all are PDF, I have PHB, DMG, MMI and BoC and about 5 Dungeon and 1 Dragon magazines in flesh. Well, not flesh, I'm not that sort of person *ick*.

[Adumbration]

I just got the kid in a candyshop feeling. :smallbiggrin:

[WorthingSon]

May I suggest Catfolk? Extra Dex and Cha, +10 base landspeed, low-light vision and only 1 LA. You'd be medium, and not really behind on the leveling curve. Warlock can be interesting if you want more magic than sneak.

[Adumbration]

All right, the die has been cast. I'm a changeling, Rogue 5/Fortune's friend 5. My purpose is to do my best at surviving with rerolls and rerolls of rerolls, be a skillmonkey and help my allies with my wide array of magical items.

Here's the catch: our DM has told us what the campaign is.

It's called: "The Tomb of Horrors." Yes. I've heard the rumors. I'm getting a bit scared (in a good way :smallwink: ). Fortunately our DM has also given us some mercy - each of us have a ring of three wishes, that we can only use to resurrect allies. So it's not going to be an instant death.

Wish me luck.

[wormwood]

Oddly enough, that's exactly what a pixie bard in my party had custom-made for himself!

I was always under the impression that's what the HHH was to begin with. I think a picture in one of the books made it out to be a belt-pouch type thing.

[Draz74]

All right, the die has been cast. I'm a changeling, Rogue 5/Fortune's friend 5. My purpose is to do my best at surviving with rerolls and rerolls of rerolls, be a skillmonkey and help my allies with my wide array of magical items.

Wish me luck.

Good luck. Fortune's Friend struck me as an incredibly fun but not especially powerful PrC when I looked it over ... so you'll need it. (Especially since, well, you don't get any class features besides good luck. :smalltongue: )

[Adumbration]

Good luck. Fortune's Friend struck me as an incredibly fun but not especially powerful PrC when I looked it over ... so you'll need it. (Especially since, well, you don't get any class features besides good luck. :smalltongue: )

I know, I know. I just find it incredibly funny that I can convert a natural 1 into natural 20. :smallbiggrin:

Also, we have a goliath barbarian, a sorceror, and some sort of a divine caster (the DM) in our team, so we shouldn't be that badly off. I also rolled pretty well with my stats, none under ten, the best 18 and the rest inbetween. Also almost all of my HDs turned out 5 or 6.

[RTGoodman]

All right, the die has been cast. I'm a changeling, Rogue 5/Fortune's friend 5. My purpose is to do my best at surviving with rerolls and rerolls of rerolls, be a skillmonkey and help my allies with my wide array of magical items.

When I read this, I was going to point out the 1st-level Changeling Rogue racial substitution level, where you get 10+Int skill points and some other abilities in exchange for loosing Trapfinding. And then I read this:


It's called: "The Tomb of Horrors."

Yeah, good luck. I haven't run Tomb of Horrors, but I have heard stories. I think you're probably going to want to keep Trapfinding.

[SoD]

The party is as follows:
A Human Sorcerer (N)
A Changeling Rogue/Fortunes Friend (N)
A Goliath Barbarian (CE)
A Killoren Spirit Shaman/Stormlord (NG)


All tenth level equivilents.

Here's the situation: The kingdom found the best, and strongest from around the land in the hopes that they could finally defeat or destroy the tomb, or at least survive. They brought Carla (Sorcerer) from her study and Furence Steadman (Rogue) from off the streets. They cut a deal with Creoth the Stoney that his record would be wiped clean if he survived, and captured Zaranyr from nearby forestland. They have all been equiped as best as they could, and are being sent into the tomb...

Why a Killoren Spirit Shamam/Stormlord? One of the guys said he wanted it to be 'a bit weird' and nobody complained. Don't argue, it's official. We start in two hours. Heh.

[Adumbration]

Yes. And my character is unnamed no more! He's called Furence Steadman. Dun-dun-duunnhh!!

[RTGoodman]

Yes. And my character is unnamed no more! He's called Furence Steadman. Dun-dun-duunnhh!!

I don't know if you're hoping that giving him a name will make him survive (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0472.html) (I think that's only for NPCs), but it's worth a shot. :smallbiggrin:

Good luck with the Tomb!

[SoD]

Well, I let everyone have a ring of three wishes...that can only be used to bring back a dead comrade. However, if their equipment is destroyed, it doesn't come back. Out of a total of 12 wishes, they've got 2 left.

3 were destroyed when the goliath barbarian put his head in the demons statues mouth...9 left. The entire party was killed by a four armed mutant gargoyal...which activated a contingency to bring them back. Leaving them with five left. One was lost in a pit full of lava, one was used bring that character back. Can't remember when the last one was used, but they've got two left. And the barbarian and the spirit shaman have both lost all their equipment. Oh, and the goliath barbarian is now an elven barbarian. I love reincarnate. He found the brain in a jar, and the eye in a jar. After replacing his own eye with the one he found, he attempted to replace his brian...

[Chronos]

3 were destroyed when the goliath barbarian put his head in the demons statues mouth...9 left.Wow, you mean there's someone on the Internet who hasn't actually heard of that trap?

And if it's the one I think it is, you did them a favor by letting them bring him back.