Thought experiment: infinite skill tiering

[NichG]

From the cosmic power vs average person thread in general, I had the thought of what it would be like to have a character who is permanently a Lv1 Commoner (so the only combos would have to involve 0LA races and one or two feats at most, or external collaboration), but gets to have a single skill treated as having infinite ranks (the 'same' infinity, so opposed rolls between two infinite-skill characters are treated as ties). How do the various skills hash out in this case, and are there any curious or interesting middle-grounds that would actually be viable for play?

Not exhaustive, but some examples...

I'd say the unplayable top-end ones would be e.g.:
- Profession gives infinite gold and depending on whether you can opt to take a lesser result, immediately ends the world.
- Diplomacy is an old and familiar one for this, basically turns the campaign into Code Geass
- Bluff (version: they believe what you say) - see above

Borderline:
- Hide - unbeatable stealth if you get a Silence placed on you, including staying hidden even when attacking someone to their face. Maybe becomes playable at higher levels when the average opposition might include an AoE, but at low level basically could totally take over the campaign.
- Sleight of Hand - Steal everything equipped by anyone within reach every round as a set of free actions, with no defense possible. It's potentially really good, but still maybe playably narrow.
- Craft gets arbitrary amounts of wealth, but not literally infinite like Profession.

Potentially playable at some finite power level:
- Infinite Jump gives nice movement, and with Martial Talent for Sudden Leap means effectively line of sight teleportation. Interesting, but bounded effect.
- Concentration with a feat for Martial Talent gives you 'I make a single Will save whenever, no matter the DC'. Kind of limited, but not bad.
- Use Magic Device means you're a wealth-based caster.
- Iaijutsu Focus - you've got a 9d6 attack as a Lv1, that will carry you for a bit but not forever. Is the 9xCha typo thing available as a Lv1 Commoner?
- Move Silently - perfect stealth but only if you prevent line of sight.
- Balance - I guess its like flight but worse, with the epic uses?
- Bluff (version: you believe that they believe what they are saying) - with this version of bluff, should be totally playable even underpowered.
- Survival - without the epic uses, this only really works as a schtick if you're the food supply for an army I guess? Get a bunch of villages to join you because you can feed infinite people even in a desert... However with the epic uses this is basically Jack Sparrow's compass but better in character form - if you can describe it, you can point to it.
- Listen - hear all the conversations taking place anywhere in the setting at will, I guess?
- Ride - On the weak side, but with Mounted Combat this is 1/round immunity to an attack. Viable at low-mid levels.

Highly situational or weak even when infinite
- Forgery - viable in a city/politics campaign, otherwise no?
- Climb - equivalent to having Spiderclimb all the time?
- Tumble - Nice to ignore falling damage and behave like you have Spiderclimb always on I guess, but hard to build a character around this
- Use Rope - basically exploit the epic 'free Animate Rope at will' thing as your schtick?
- Spot - you notice everything, great, but still defeated by walls...
- Disable Device - only useful if the GM makes it useful?
- Search - Like the above, maybe a bit better

Doesn't really do much
- Swim - Congrats, you have a swim speed at the cost of never leveling up.
- Decipher Script - congrats, you have a cantrip?
- Appraise - Congrats, you have a 1st level spell

[AvatarVecna]

On the one hand, the "cha mod per damage die" thing of Iaijusu Master isn't a "typo", it's just explicitly what the ability does. On the other hand, that's not available as a lvl 1 commoner, so that hardly matters.

Handle Animal with +infinite is lesser Diplomacy. By making a DC [160+HD] check, you can train any creature type any trick in a minute. Afterwards, getting them to perform the trick is DC 10; handle animal is still Trained Only, but anyone who's got even a single rank will have a good chance of getting the trained creature to perform the trick. How many tricks you can teach a non-animal isn't specified, but it's probably 3 per point of intelligence?

On the one hand, infinite Bluff/Diplomacy can be performed in a single round, and can allow you to do more than get them to perform a single animal trick. On the other hand, Diplomacy doesn't make the target socially vulnerable to anyone but you, and Bluff can potentially be unraveled by someone with infinite Sense Motive. And the highest tiers of both are mind-affecting and won't be able to affect certain targets. Infinite Handle Animal doesn't really have a counter, or a maximum duration, isn't mind-affecting, and makes the target socially vulnerable to people other than the user. I'm not sure if it's "unplayable" or "borderline".

[SirNibbles]

Infinite Escape Artist means you can fight from inside a crack where you can't be targeted by most attacks or effects.

[Saintheart]

Iaijutsu Focus plus the Iaijutsu Master ancestor feat means one attack roll, skill check, or saving throw per day is boosted to infinity. Lvl 1 Commoner can take it because it's an ancestor feat that only requires you to be Crane clan.

[loky1109]

You can't take Martial Talent for 1st level commoner. Your IL is 0.

"Commoner can take it because it's an ancestor feat that only requires you to be Crane clan."
Update in Dr 318 removed even this limitation. Ancestor feats became full analogs of regional feats.

If you want skil... Handle Humanoid. If you somehow is a feline.

[FactualArcher]

I think there’s an epic Iaijutsu Focus feat out there that removes the cap, but it might be homebrew.

[loky1109]

I think there’s an epic Iaijutsu Focus feat out there that removes the cap, but it might be homebrew.

Yes, it is. It's web, can't find link right now.

[Inevitability]

The 'within reach' bit of Sleight of Hand need not apply: arguably you can use the 'displace creature' function to move a mount you're riding, and thus move yourself.

I'm not sure if there's any ways to get a companion with your ranks: Malphas's raven doesn't work, Trickery Devotion doesn't work, a familiar requires a class level dip, and dvati similarly requires a LA.

[Chronos]

The Wild Cohort feat can be taken at first level. Or just steal enough stuff to be able to afford to buy a normal mount.

[Inevitability]

The Wild Cohort feat can be taken at first level. Or just steal enough stuff to be able to afford to buy a normal mount.

Yes, getting a mount is not the hurdle, what I'm trying to get is something that shares your skill bonus as well.

The idea that moving your mount with Sleight of Hand would move you too is slightly beyond RAW, which is why the originator of this trick (the lightning thief (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?142080-3-5-The-Lightning-Thief-Epic-Sleight-of-Hand-Abuse)) used a trickery devotion duplicate to get a second body with all your skill modifiers. I've seen dvati or a familiar used as well.

[Quertus]

So... while literal infinite gold would have infinite mass, take up infinite space, and be actually unplayable, I don't consider Code Geass unplayable.

Sleight of Hand doesn't need to be infinite - just a 19 (from ranks and stats) means you automatically succeed. Infinite ranks just mean that you only get spotted by someone with infinite Spot.

Infinite Bluff is "you're crazy" - it's not a super power, it's a flaw for everyone to think you actually believe all these stupid things. :smallamused:

Infinite Diplomacy... congratulations, everybody likes you? You still die to the first mindless creature who targets you, or the first angry creature you lose initiative to. Or the first trap or pool of lava you fall into. Or (etc etc). Or - am I remembering this right - the first angry creature who doesn't share your language?

Infinite Craft means producing anything you want as a free action (if you have the materials). It's like Infinite Profession, only doesn't produce literal infinite gold, only as much as you want. Seems really strong in your standard D&D campaign. I think I made a thread where Playgrounders said this should carry you to level... 12-14 maybe? Or... my thread wasn't with infinite/arbitrary funds, so maybe further.

Infinite Spellcraft, OTOH, seems pretty lame. You know what spell is about to kill you, and know how much it cost the party to bring you back from the dead. Huzzah?

Lucid Dreaming seems cool, but I'm not sure there's an infinite use anywhere.

Infinite Knowledge? Knowledge is power. Depends a bit on where the GM draws the line on what you can know (just like always), but knowing everything in the world knowable with K:Arcana or K:Religion or K:Local or K:Nobility could be amazing. Never mind the Isekai protagonist powers of infinite K:Nature or K:Engineering, to upgrade society. I'd say, under the right GM, these are the true powerhouse skills.

In short, if you're on the rails, and don't get to choose what you're doing, these are almost all useless, and you're dead. If you have the freedom to frame the campaign in light of your skill, even winning olympic gold medals or being an uber-merchant are quite strong. A few, like Craft, are just generally good.

[RSGA]

I would like to say that both Perform and Tumble should be up there with Diplomacy because they both allow for making people Fanatic. As well as earning 3d6 gold a day. And if we're free with the text as written for Perform, so can Slight of Hand, Balance, and UMD

[SirNibbles]

Infinite Bluff is "you're crazy" - it's not a super power, it's a flaw for everyone to think you actually believe all these stupid things. :smallamused:



The rules regarding Bluff are quite clear- if your check beats the opponent's Sense Motive result, they believe you and act as you want for one round.

[NichG]

The rules regarding Bluff are quite clear- if your check beats the opponent's Sense Motive result, they believe you and act as you want for one round.

It comes down to the interpretation of the 'Bluff is not, however, a suggestion spell.' sentence as to what that implies for the limits of what 'react as you wish' actually means.

[Quertus]

Infinite Listen means that any conversation, anywhere in the world, or on any plane that there's an open portal to, you hear and (if you speak the language) understand. That's just... wow. Once you add hearing every other sound in the world, you've functionally got Omniscience. Infinite Listen sounds like another top-tier skill.

Infinite Sense Motive means you know the thoughts of everyone you can see. Super power and curse, rolled into one. Although I'd rather have infinite Craft (imagine being able to reprogram things as a Reaction in a sci-fi setting :smallcool:), you could also pencil me in to sign me up for Isekai rebirth with this one, too, under the right conditions.

Ignoring everything else, infinite Tumble just sounds fun.

It occurs to me that, in the case where the GM has handed out a Bag of Infinite Holding, infinite Profession might not be that bad. Still probably not as good as infinite Craft.

(this may have changed over editions, but...) Infinite Survival / Wilderness Lore with Tracking means you can follow anyone, anywhen. Retrace steps to solve ancient murder mysteries. Never lose at Hide and Seek. Quite the party trick.

[SirNibbles]

It comes down to the interpretation of the 'Bluff is not, however, a suggestion spell.' sentence as to what that implies for the limits of what 'react as you wish' actually means.

Of course. In this case, it is literally a suggestion spell because you can allow a +50 to the opposing Sense Motive in order to produce a suggestion effect instead of the regular result of bluff.

[NichG]

Of course. In this case, it is literally a suggestion spell because you can allow a +50 to the opposing Sense Motive in order to produce a suggestion effect instead of the regular result of bluff.

Ah, true. No save DC either, so that probably puts it into the top tier.

[Saintheart]

Another one: Infinite Bluff means anyone you fight rarely has a Dex bonus to their AC, because you're constantly feinting. More useable if you have the Improved Feint feat.

[Chronos]

Quoth Inevitability:

Yes, getting a mount is not the hurdle, what I'm trying to get is something that shares your skill bonus as well.
Ah. If you can manage a psionic race and a feat, or two feats (such as a human), then a psicrystal is an option.

[pabelfly]

I want to see what I can do with infinite ranks of Truespeak.

So, with flaws:

1: Minor Utterance of the Evolving Mind (Inertia Surge)
F: Minor Utterance of the Evolving Mind (Word of Nurturing, Minor)
F: Quicken Utterance

So, you can Quicken Inertia Surge to a swift action to lock an enemy in place for one turn, no save allowed, and also use Word of Nurturing, Minor to do 1d6 damage to an enemy which can't be resisted. You can do this as often as you want and lock and kill one single enemy.

This obviously fails when you have to fight more than one enemy, or if that enemy has a ranged attack, but it's not a bad combination from a skill that hasn't been discussed yet.

[YellowJohn]

One for the Real World (TM): Decipher Script

Theoretically, this allows you to crack any code. ANY code - like the end-to-end encryption used by, say, Blackberry messenger. Or your banking app.