Armor "abuse"...thoughts?

[TheMeanDM]

I got to thinking about this and wanted to pick the brains of others...just to get some other opinions (maybe the same, maybe not).

Scenario:
You have a class or prestige class that is restricted to a certain level of armor.

Example:
Rangers are limited to Light or Medium armor. If they use anything heavier than Light, they can't use their ranger abilities.

Common "abuse":
Let's throw some Mithral (medium whatever) onto the Ranger! It's now "Light" Armor!

My thoughts:
Light, Medium, and Heavy are all classifications of armor. But they are NOT to simply be weight classifications, which is apparently how people read the rules to be:



Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations.

But let's really think about this.

A character is proficient with Light and Medium armors. They know how to wear that armor and move in it. They have experienced it's "nuances". They know that Chainmail is going to be heavy on the shoulders and a bit bulky to move around in--but Scale Mail isn't as restricting and somewhat more distributed. They know the freedom of movement that comes with merely wearing a Breastplate vs. full Chainmail down to your wrists.

When a character dons Heavy Armor, such as Full Plate....and they do not have Heavy Armor proficiency...they should not, in my opinion, be able to consider it Medium armor to skirt around the class limitations (or armor proficiency penalties).

Sure, that Mithril Full Plate Mail may be 25 pounds...but the manner in which you actually wear it is completely foreign to anyone that has never experienced it. There are so many pieces (gauntlets, wrist guards, elbow guards, upper arm guards, breast plate, shoulder guards..etc)

http://members.aol.com/dargolyt/TheForge/GOTHPLTE.GIF

Compare all of those pieces with Chainmail...

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31HTD6CcYHL._AA280_.jpg

In my opinion, a PC would still need the correct Armor Proficiency feat to functionally wear Mithril Plate Mail to avoid any penalties.

It seems like this is pretty well glossed-over by DM's. It's like every character (with sufficient funds) that only has Light or Medium Proficiency decides, in the name of optimization, to take a heavy armor and make it mithril...and expect that their PC will know how to properly use it, move in it, maintain it, etc.

Not when I run a game, thanks.

What are your thoughts?

[Reinboom]

You, as TheMeanDM, bring up a good point actually.

I believe ruling that "it's 1 weight category less only for those who are proficient with the normal category" would be nearly fair.

[jjpickar]

I had never thought about it this way. I think I will institute this in my future games (games I run if I'm a player I will refrain from even noticing this:smalltongue: ). Thanks for pointing it out.

[Frosty]

Common sense agrees with you, but if ruled this way, then no one will ever use Mithril ever again unless the issue is emcumberance. The whole POINT of Mithril is to let you have access to better armor types.

[Craig1f]

You are correct.

Mithral Full Plate requires Heavy Armor Proficiency. But it does not prevent you from quad moving, and does not interfere with any abililties that require Medium Armor or below.

Mithral Breastplate requires Medium Armor Proficiency, but does not lower your movement speed, and does not interfere with any abilities that require light or no armor.

[Craig1f]

The DM in the campaign invented a magic item that we looted that has some cool properties.

1/day, you can levitate over terrain, effectively allowing you to float over a lack, and walk without a trace.

Your armor counts as one step lighter, as if it were mithral. This ability stacks with mithral armor.

So you can wear Mithral Full Plate, and act as if you are wearing light armor.

Too bad the Duskblade got the boots. I got the natural armor +2 amulet though, so it evens out..

[Frosty]

You are correct.

Mithral Full Plate requires Heavy Armor Proficiency. But it does not prevent you from quad moving, and does not interfere with any abililties that require Medium Armor or below.

Mithral Breastplate requires Medium Armor Proficiency, but does not lower your movement speed, and does not interfere with any abilities that require light or no armor.

That is not the RAW interpretation.

[Craig1f]

That is not the RAW interpretation.

Well, that's rubbish. Heavy Armor proficiency is knowing how to wear armor that is in the heavy category. Full plate does not cease to be full plate because it's lighter. You have to learn how to use it. However, because it's lighter, it has fewer limitations.

I've always interpreted it this way, and I think a good DM would as well.

[TheMeanDM]

I always thought that the point of mithril is so that nancy-pancy elves with weak-as-baby strength scores can wear heavy armor and survive :smallbiggrin:

Since you mentioned that word, encumberance, I would say that is an excellent choice.

Sure, your Mithril Full Plate may be 25 pounds, but it's still bulky (lots of plates) and restrictive (lots of plates, padded armor underneath, etc), and you still aren't trained in how to wear/use it properly....without taking the Heavy Armor Proficiency Feat.

And that magic item, stacking with Mithril? Whoah....just.....whoah....

[Telonius]

I would allow the character to use the class features that are based on not wearing armor heavier than x, but treat the proficiency as the normal. So basically, a ranger wearing a Mithral Breastplate would be able to use his Combat Style feats, but isn't considered Proficient in it, triggering this:


A character who is wearing armor with which she is not proficient applies its armor check penalty to attack rolls and to all skill checks that involve moving, including Ride.

Breastplate is normally -4 ACP, reduced by 3 from Mithral, for a -1 to all attacks and movement-based skill checks.

[Craig1f]

I would allow the character to use the class features that are based on not wearing armor heavier than x, but treat the proficiency as the normal. So basically, a ranger wearing a Mithral Breastplate would be able to use his Combat Style feats, but isn't considered Proficient in it, triggering this:

Breastplate is normally -4 ACP, reduced by 3 from Mithral, for a -1 to all attacks and movement-based skill checks.

I agree with that. But in the case of my Dragonfire Adept, for example, he never needs to make an attack roll. So his lack of Light Armor proficiency does not affect him as he wears his +2 Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt :-)


And that magic item, stacking with Mithril? Whoah....just.....whoah....

Oh, it's great. And this is a low-magic world too! You have no idea what it took to get this. We basically had to fight off a large platoon of the enemy. A series of good rolls kept us alive, with my barbarian averaging 2 kills a round. He went down twice but was healed. After we finish off 12 or so orcs (with barbarian levels), 3 ogres, and a BBEG Orc, a massive army was running towards us. We played a fate card (we have an action point system) called "Time out" which basically says "an encounter, that hasn't started yet, is delayed for one minute" and we decided to run.

The result of the fate card, was that some of the orcs that fled our fight, run up to the army that is running towards us, and begin to talk to them, which stalls them for 10 rounds. After 10 rounds, they will continue pursuing us at full speed. Being barbarians, this means that they can outpace everyone in the party except for me, so we need to get enough distance before they start running towards us again, so that we can veer off the path and lose them.

Having a speed of 50 (boots of striding, Complete Champion hadn't come out yet), I decide to run over to the corpse of the BBEG, and loot what I can. I'm carrying an unconscious elf on my back, so I am now at a medium load, so I have to rage to catch back up with the group, and drop some stuff off to other members of the group while we escape.

Apparently, I was 3 rounds away from screwing the entire group. If I'd tried to go after the monks belt on another corpse, the army would have caught up with us, and we couldn't have escaped.

So, I loot these awesome boots, Amulet of Natural Armor +2, helm of read magic and comprehend languages, ring of counterspelling, and a +1 Vibrating Great Sword that, 3 times a day, you can add 2d6 sonic damage to an attack, but take 2d6 sonic damage. This in addition to the 1d6 sonic damage the sword already gives.

Later we found out that the full plate the orc was wearing, was a +2 Mithral Full Plate of Sonic Resistance 10 (to be used with the sword and boots). So you could add 2d6 sonic damage to the sword attack, without taking damage. Man I wish I'd been able to loot that.

Anyway, this all and we were level 4 at the time. Apparently, we weren't supposed to be on the island (the DM did not intend for us to go there. We were told it was a suicide mission).

[skywalker]

Well, that's rubbish.

And that's an effective way to argue.

The OP is correct, it makes absolutely no sense.

However, I think(like others) that there would be no reason to wear mithral heavy armor if you removed this benefit. I also think it was written that way to throw a bone to rangers and barbarians.

Also, heavy armor proficiency as feat or whatever doesn't make much sense either, are you really going to spend a feat on that when you could just enchant your armor? Following this, is someone really going to spend his time running around in full plate, when he could be perfecting his archery aim? (Just an example.)

My other question to the OP is, how do you expect someone to have experienced wearing full plate? You say you have to experience it before you can be proficient, but how do fighters and paladins experience it before or at level 1? They can afford it themselves, and full plate is fitted to an individual, not that I think any self-respecting master would let his squire(or what-have-you) put on his(the master's) own personal armor.


Just my two cents.

[Craig1f]

And that's an effective way to argue.

Thanks


The OP is correct, it makes absolutely no sense.

However, I think(like others) that there would be no reason to wear mithral heavy armor if you removed this benefit. I also think it was written that way to throw a bone to rangers and barbarians.

Also, heavy armor proficiency as feat or whatever doesn't make much sense either, are you really going to spend a feat on that when you could just enchant your armor? Following this, is someone really going to spend his time running around in full plate, when he could be perfecting his archery aim? (Just an example.)

Most Barbarians take 2 levels of fighter for bonus feats, which also grants them Heavy Armor Proficiency and Literacy. I would argue that that is reasonable.


My other question to the OP is, how do you expect someone to have experienced wearing full plate? You say you have to experience it before you can be proficient, but how do fighters and paladins experience it before or at level 1? They can afford it themselves, and full plate is fitted to an individual, not that I think any self-respecting master would let his squire(or what-have-you) put on his(the master's) own personal armor.

When they gain proficiency, I'd assume they do so by going somewhere and training in cheap, loaned suit of Full Plate, as well as other types of Heavy Armor.

I don't think you gain proficiency just by gaining a class level. There is an assumption that you specifically trained for it. That's why many DMs make you set aside a week to level.

[Nekoshodan]

Originally posted by TheMeanDM

Sure, that Mithril Full Plate Mail may be 25 pounds...but the manner in which you actually wear it is completely foreign to anyone that has never experienced it. There are so many pieces (gauntlets, wrist guards, elbow guards, upper arm guards, breast plate, shoulder guards..etc)

By this logic, each type of armor should require a different proficiency. There would be no ‘heavy armor proficiency’ feat, but a separate feat for each type, as in weapons.

Having fought in armor, I can tell you that it does not matter how many pieces it is made up of once it is properly secured to your body. The only issues that seem to affect the ability to act are:

1) What movements are no longer possible, due to the shape of the armor? This should be miniscule with most professionally designed armor.

2) How much does the armor slow or otherwise reduce the effectiveness of possible movements? This is almost exclusively due to weight.

It makes sense to me that an extremely light chainmail would be as easy to wear as scale mail.
The light chainmail would likely be actually easier to move in due to its flexibility.

It makes sense to me from a ‘reality’ perspective, but more on topic, it fits the purpose of mithral armor for the game. It can hardly be ‘abuse’ if it is the intended purpose.

P.S.
(Out of curiosity, how would scale mail be more distributed than a chain mail that just rests on the shoulders? I may want to alter my design.)

[Kaelik]

I agree with that. But in the case of my Dragonfire Adept, for example, he never needs to make an attack roll. So his lack of Light Armor proficiency does not affect him as he wears his +2 Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt :-)

Not that it matters, because even if you did have to make attack roles you wouldn't feel any effects. Because Mithril Chain Shirt has an ACP of 0.

[brian c]

Common sense agrees with you, but if ruled this way, then no one will ever use Mithril ever again unless the issue is emcumberance. The whole POINT of Mithril is to let you have access to better armor types.

I agree; it has to be counted as one lower.

How about a compromise: you can count mithril armor as one lower, but you have to be proficient in whatever the actual armor is. If you're not proficient in heavy armor, then if you wear mithril fullplate, it still counts as heavy

[Darkxarth]

Doesn't the Magic Item Compendium answer the question about Mithral armor somewhere near the beginning? I'd've sworn I saw an official WotC ruling on this somewhere, unfortunately, I don't have my books with me right now so I'll have to check later.

(Also, being short on time and not at home, I only skimmed the thread, so please forgive me if this was already mentioned.)

[Indon]

Common sense agrees with you, but if ruled this way, then no one will ever use Mithril ever again unless the issue is emcumberance. The whole POINT of Mithril is to let you have access to better armor types.

No, I'd guess the point of Mithril is encumbrance. That actually renders Mithril as good as other special armor materials.

The most common use - or exploit - of Mithril is to gain access to better armor types. This makes Mithril better than pretty much any other special armor material.

[Jack Zander]

P.S.
(Out of curiosity, how would scale mail be more distributed than a chain mail that just rests on the shoulders? I may want to alter my design.)

Chain mail puts all the weight on the shoulders while scale mail straps around the shoulders and waist.

[-Cor-]

I don't see any abuse at all as long as you play by the rules. There are penalties built in for using armor with which you are not proficient. It was stated from the SRD earlier in the thread but simply put, ACP applies to a number of things. There's also the issue of encumberance, which, in my opinion, should never be ignored no matter how much people tell you you're being a bean counting micro managing DM.

There are classes that are not proficient in any armor, that doesn't preclude them from putting the armor on. If a Shugenja finds an MCS then she can wear it and have only an ASF chance because the ACP of a MCS is 0. This makes sense to me. A shirt of chain mail made from extremely light flexible material that is akin to wearing a really hard t-shirt... <shrug> I'd say anyone could walk around in that. It still weighs 12.5 pounds and has an ASF chance so it's not like one is avoiding all the detriments.

If a character with a 10 STR that wasn't proficient in Heavy Armor put on Mithral Full Plate they now have a -4 to attacks and skills, a 25% ASF, and they are at 2/3 of their carrying capacity before penalities kick in (In other words, they're not carrying much else). Not to mention that this particular suit of armor cost them at minimum 10,200 GP, and this isn't taking into consideration DM adjustment for the market or the abundance or lack of mithral in an environment.

On top of this, there are world factors for a DM to consider with someone walking around in Mithral Full Plate. I'm sure there's someone who will want to steal it, and just because it's made of mithral doesn't mean it can't rust or be broken.

All I'm saying is that the down-sides to wearing heavier more expensive armor are built in to the game, as well as easily added to the game without changing any RAW.

This is just my DM opinion but if you can ever do anything by adding to the RAW and not changing it, then in my experience, that's usually the best solution.

[zaei]

If the point of mithral was encumberance, it wouldn't cost so much.



Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light.

So, "Most" obviously refers to Light armors as the exception. I would certainly see penalties to attacks and skill checks for non-proficiency as a "limitation", and my mithral armor counts as one category lighter for purposes of limitations, so...

[LeeMon]

Mithral armor is considered one category lighter for all purposes.

I could see the reasoning otherwise, and I've houseruled it myself in the past, but this was covered in the FAQ recently (to my knowledge). The FAQ used the same reasoning I do now: The example provided in the DMG/SRD, Mithral Full Plate.


The armor has an arcane spell failure chance of 25%, a maximum Dexterity bonus of +3, and an armor check penalty of -3. It is considered medium armor and weighs 25 pounds.

Oh, I found the FAQ:

Is a character proficient with light armor, such as a rogue, considered to be proficient with mithral breastplate? What about a character proficient with medium armor, such as a barbarian—is he considered proficient with mithral full plate armor?
The description of mithral on page 284 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide is less precise than it could be in defining how it interacts with armor proficiency rules. The simplest answer— and the one that the Sage expects most players and DMs use— is that mithral armor is treated as one category lighter for all purposes, including proficiency. This isn’t exactly what the Dungeon Master’s Guide says, but it’s a reasonable interpretation of the intent of the rule (and it’s supported by a number of precedents, including the descriptions of various specific mithral armors described on page 220 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide and a variety of NPC stat blocks).

Thus, a ranger or rogue could wear a mithral breastplate without suffering a nonproficiency penalty (since it’s treated as light armor), and each could use any ability dependent on wearing light or no armor (such as evasion or the ranger’s combat style). A barbarian could wear mithral full plate armor without suffering a nonproficiency penalty (since it’s treated as medium armor), and he could use any ability dependent on wearing medium or lighter armor (such as fast movement).

The same would be true of any other special material that uses the same or similar language as mithral (such as darkleaf, on page 120 of the EBERRON Campaign Setting).

[Nero24200]

I don't see how difficult it is to wear heavy armour.
Have you ever tried wearing heavy armour in real life? It's surprisingly easy.
Now, wearing heavy armour -and- fighting effectivly is another story, thats where the proficencies come in. I don't see how Mythril counting as a catagory ligher is unreasonable. If you effectivly remove the encumberence of heavy armour, why should it be unreasonable to assume that someone who has only trained in medion armour would struggle to fight whilst wearing it?

[Tyger]

I kind of like this as a houserule, but that's what it would be. A houserule. RAW is quite clear on the point.

That said, my most recent party is all mages. Damn them. :)

[tyckspoon]

No, I'd guess the point of Mithril is encumbrance. That actually renders Mithril as good as other special armor materials.

The most common use - or exploit - of Mithril is to gain access to better armor types. This makes Mithril better than pretty much any other special armor material.

If you remove the 'is one category lighter' trait, mithril is still better than most other special armor materials. It still lowers spell failure chance and armor check penalties and raises the armor's max dex bonus. It's definitely still better than the other core materials, although that's not a high bar. Dragonhide's major mechanical benefit is that Druids can wear it, and Adamantine is both really expensive doesn't provide enough DR to make a major difference.

Encumbrance is something of an after-thought, at least when talking about full plate wearers; if they're interested in full plate, they've almost certainly got enough Strength to wear it as a light load.

[Telonius]

Mithral does effectively make everyone proficient in armor (at least, as soon as they can afford a mithral version of those armors). Other than certain classes (Monk and Druid) that restrict armor altogether, the only "non-proficiency" penalties that have to do with armor are based on the Armor Check Penalty of the armor. If that armor check penalty is zero, then proficiency doesn't matter. Masterwork reduces the ACP by one, and Mithral by three. So anything with a base ACP of four or less - that's primarily made of metal - can be worn by anybody at no penalty. That list includes Small and Large Metal Shields, Chain Shirt, Scale Mail, and Breastplate.

[Keld Denar]

Mithril Full Plate is listed on the equipment table in Races of the Wild as Medium Armor.

Just a perspective from a seperate source, although the sage provides a good reading.

[Kaelik]

If that armor check penalty is zero, then proficiency doesn't matter. Masterwork reduces the ACP by one, and Mithral by three. So anything with a base ACP of four or less - that's primarily made of metal - can be worn by anybody at no penalty.

Actually Mithril includes the reduction for Masterwork, since all Mithril is masterwork. Therefore only things with a base ACP of three made primarily of metal can be worn without concern for Proficiency.

[Matthew]

The biggest RAW problem with this discussion is that you learn to wear Armour by means of Feats in D&D. As long as that remains the case, no argument based on realism is going to cut it, because no matter how long a character trains at wearing armour, he gains the capability on 'going up a level' and Multi Classing or Spending a Feat Slot.

[Fhaolan]

As for heavy armor being surprisingly easy to wear... yeah, providing it's well-made armor. I can tell you from personal experience that poorly fitted armor is *very* difficult to maneouver in.

I don't know if this is in 3.x RAW anywhere, but I usually implement a 'does not fit right' penalty to poor-quality armours or 'found' armors that normally need high levels of customizing such as full plate, etc.

[Prometheus]

I didn't know this was a houserule until now, but I ruled you have to have the proficiency for the type of armor it is if it were iron, but it moves aroudn like and qualifies for character abilities as if it were one less.
Example:
A barbarian can wear (previously) heavy mithral armor and still gain he benefit of his fast movement feat.
A ranger could wear (previously) medium mithral armor and still have combat style only if he/she invested in Armor Proficiency (Medium).

[pinkbunny]

the difference between full plate and breastplate is mostly weight, and I imagine a breastplate weighing half as much would be about as easy to wear as hard leather armor.

[Telonius]

Actually Mithril includes the reduction for Masterwork, since all Mithril is masterwork. Therefore only things with a base ACP of three made primarily of metal can be worn without concern for Proficiency.

... huh. Checked it out against the Mithral Full Plate of Speed, and it looks like you're right. Don't tell my DM, he's been letting our Barbarian get away with murder! :smallbiggrin:

[Craig1f]

As for heavy armor being surprisingly easy to wear... yeah, providing it's well-made armor. I can tell you from personal experience that poorly fitted armor is *very* difficult to maneouver in.

I don't know if this is in 3.x RAW anywhere, but I usually implement a 'does not fit right' penalty to poor-quality armours or 'found' armors that normally need high levels of customizing such as full plate, etc.

Actually, you're right. All full plate is supposed to be custom made for the wearer, which implies that if you find full plate on an enemy, you can't even get it tailored.

Many DMs rule that you can't wear a found piece of armor until you take it to an armor smith to be fitted. Others rule that Magic Items always adjust to the size of the wearer.

[Iku Rex]

Actually, you're right. All full plate is supposed to be custom made for the wearer, which implies that if you find full plate on an enemy, you can't even get it tailored.

Many DMs rule that you can't wear a found piece of armor until you take it to an armor smith to be fitted. Others rule that Magic Items always adjust to the size of the wearer.
Full Plate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#fullPlate): The suit includes gauntlets, heavy leather boots, a visored helmet, and a thick layer of padding that is worn underneath the armor. Each suit of full plate must be individually fitted to its owner by a master armorsmith, although a captured suit can be resized to fit a new owner at a cost of 200 to 800 (2d4×100) gold pieces.


Full plate is the only armor that has this rule.

[Karsh]

Actually, you can wear confiscated Full Plate, although it costs 2d4x100 gp to adapt the suit of armor to you.

I'd rule that magic full plate just shifts to fit well normally, though.

Curse you, slightly faster than me simu ninja!

[Kaelik]

... huh. Checked it out against the Mithral Full Plate of Speed, and it looks like you're right. Don't tell my DM, he's been letting our Barbarian get away with murder! :smallbiggrin:

Actually he hasn't because Mithril Full Plate is treated as Medium and so the Barbarian has proficiency in it.

Also it says the part about Masterwork ACP being included right in the description of Mithril.

[Lolth]

I like the idea that proficiency is needed to take advantage of Mithril heavy armors, even considered Medium or Light. I will be using this.

As for armor sizing, I've always used it per book, though I have at times had certain suits be "male" or "female" and therefore not sizable to the other gender.

Or Dwarves, who are technically Medium sized, aren't going to fit human armor or vice-versa.