What happens, when 4 paladins enter Avernus?

[HoboKnight]

My group (lvl 12 Pal of Kelemvor, Pal of Tempus, Pal of Liira, Pal of Helm and Fighter) intends to enter Avernus in order to kill or intimidate a certain archdevil. I intend to use Descent into Avernus module(most plot points removed) in order to flesh out Avernus.

What I wonder is - would such a group be pinpointed/picked upon by residents of this layer when they enter? Would they stand out? Would the residents(especually strong creatures - Bel, Zariel, Tiamat, etc...) know of their arrival and how would they react?

Thanks

[ComicSansSeraph]

The demon bartender asks "why the wrong faith?"

[Mastikator]

The archdevils have bigger fish to fry, but if the paladins sought the big players of avernus out then they'd be granted an audience for sure.

[Unoriginal]

My group (lvl 12 Pal of Kelemvor, Pal of Tempus, Pal of Liira, Pal of Helm and Fighter) intends to enter Avernus in order to kill or intimidate a certain archdevil. I intend to use Descent into Avernus module(most plot points removed) in order to flesh out Avernus.

What I wonder is - would such a group be pinpointed/picked upon by residents of this layer when they enter? Would they stand out? Would the residents(especually strong creatures - Bel, Zariel, Tiamat, etc...) know of their arrival and how would they react?

Thanks

I think Asmodeus would know, as he's the one allowing planar travel to and from Avernus (aside from the Styx).

Outside of that the other big names would likely rely on underlings and other security measures to report the PCs' presence.

Not that they *can't* detect them. Zariel at least can pinpoint PCs who require her personal intervention while in the middle of a draconic attack, and Archdevils can sense and contact a mortal who's dying in Hell. But given hos it's described it's still something they have to actively try to do and there is no reason to scan the landscape unless they're informed by one of their thousands of minions (or by sensing the death of the mortal). Because as Mastikator said, they have bigger fishes to fry unless the PCs make themselves priority on the frying order.

[Oramac]

Wooo. I just finished playing Descent to Avernus with a paladin of helm in the group. There's a good bit to unpack here.


would such a group be pinpointed/picked upon by residents of this layer when they enter?

By any random joe schmo? Probably not. That said, anywhere they go whoever sees them is extremely likely to take an interest in them. That interest need not be combat. Perhaps they offer deals and bargains (with poor terms for the party). Or weapons/armor/trinkets (which may or may not be cursed). Or...or....or....you get the idea.


Would they stand out?

Like a sore thumb, as the saying goes. There really won't be any hiding them, outside of magic or some really creative disguises. Not everyone will know they're a Paladin of X, but everyone will know they're significantly different. And most (if not all) won't like that.


Would the...strong creatures - Bel, Zariel, Tiamat, etc. know of their arrival and how would they react?

Without a doubt, they will know. Probably through an informant, but they will know. Four paladins in hell? Who wouldn't report that to their boss? How they react depends largely on how you want to play them, and how much interaction you want those beings to have with the party. The biggest bads likely have other plans in motion, and unless the party actively interferes with them, they aren't likely to personally deal with the party. They could, however, deal with the party through an intermediary. I'd think this would be the most likely source of combat, if you needed it.

[Psyren]

The demon bartender asks "why the wrong faith?"

You've been underappreciated for this comment so allow me to remedy that :smallbiggrin:


My group (lvl 12 Pal of Kelemvor, Pal of Tempus, Pal of Liira, Pal of Helm and Fighter) intends to enter Avernus in order to kill or intimidate a certain archdevil. I intend to use Descent into Avernus module(most plot points removed) in order to flesh out Avernus.

What I wonder is - would such a group be pinpointed/picked upon by residents of this layer when they enter? Would they stand out? Would the residents(especually strong creatures - Bel, Zariel, Tiamat, etc...) know of their arrival and how would they react?

Thanks

Does the Archdevil they're after have rivals? It's likely they'll factor into some entity's plans. The fact that they're high level (Tier 3) should matter more than the fact that they're paladins.

[Justin Sane]

By any random joe schmo? Probably not. That said, anywhere they go whoever sees them is extremely likely to take an interest in them. That interest need not be combat. Perhaps they offer deals and bargains (with poor terms for the party). Or weapons/armor/trinkets (which may or may not be cursed). Or...or....or....you get the idea.A different take on this: as above, but with actually decent terms for the party. I mean, they're lining up to take out a rival devil already, why not actually help them on their way?
From the PCs side, having a devil deal with them in good faith should be even more terrifying than being swindled - how can they call themselves "the good guys" when they're getting legitimate encouragement and support from the Hosts of Hell?

[Kvess]

One thing to keep in mind is that Avernus is a war zone. Unlike the other layers of hell, it is the front line of the Blood War, the remnants of the primordial battles between law and chaos and (the Devils claim) the only thing that prevents the Abyss from spilling its malignant tendrils throughout all of the other planes in the multiverse.

The thing is, should the forces of Hell ever win the conflict, there would be nothing stopping them from waging war on other planes either. The best outcome for the rest of the multiverse is a continued stalemate.

The Devils will want to corrupt and subjugate your paladins but they could also use their help. Your paladins could be a delicious source of suffering, recruits for the Blood War, or cats paws to swipe at their own infernal rivals while maintaining plausible deniability.

I would suggest that any devil interested in the services of high level paladins should attempt ominous flattery: “we seek the services of skilled and merciless killers such as yourselves, despite your unfortunate affiliations.” Offer powerful magic weapons in exchange for morally dubious tasks, and see if they can tempt a paladin to break and oath or two in the process. Payment provided in advance if they’re willing to sign an agreement…

[sithlordnergal]

What I wonder is - would such a group be pinpointed/picked upon by residents of this layer when they enter? Would they stand out?


Most likely, its a group of mortals in the Nine Hells, and a group of Good mortals to boot. That's going to make them stand out like a sore thumb, and it's going to draw some attention from different Fiends. This could be good, such as offering jobs/quests, it could be bad, such as trying to tempt the party to evil, or it could be neutral, such as trade. Though no matter the interaction, I suspect the Devils would be trying to get one over the party in any deal they make.


Would the residents(especually strong creatures - Bel, Zariel, Tiamat, etc...) know of their arrival and how would they react?


The powerful residents might know, and if they're in charge of that plane they will know...but they also probably won't care. Level 12 is impressive in the mortal realm. Not so much in Hell. Your players are now small fries in a dangerous world.

[Psyren]

The powerful residents might know, and if they're in charge of that plane they will know...but they also probably won't care. Level 12 is impressive in the mortal realm. Not so much in Hell. Your players are now small fries in a dangerous world.

I'd say its high enough to make them useful pawns in a number of schemes. They're not able to take on a Pit Fiend or anything, but Horned Devils and Erinyes etc make plots and try to advance too.

[Zevox]

One thing to keep in mind is that Avernus is a war zone.
This is a big thing, along with the fact that Avernus, being the first layer of Hell, is where any and all extraplanar visitors to Hell will first arrive. Your instinct might be to think that a few Paladins would be a big deal showing up in Hell, but it's honestly probably not that notable in isolation. The Devils there are largely busy fighting a war, and while mortal visitors aren't a constant, they're likely not so uncommon as to draw immediate attention from fiends with more pressing matters to attend to. That they're Paladins will be notable to anyone who does notice them, assuming it's clear - if there's nothing about them that makes it obvious, it could also go overlooked. A mortal in shiny plate armor can just be a Fighter as easily as a Paladin, after all. Even carrying around holy symbols could just mean they're priests (though that too would likely draw attention). The first display of a Paladin's powers they show while there will make it clear to any onlookers, though.

That said, any fiends who do identify them and aren't too busy would take an interest. Spies (of which there are likely plenty around) will certainly report them to their masters if they realize what they are. They're not likely to be considered a huge threat on their own, four people in an entire plane full of Devils is too small a group for that, but the opportunity to strike a bargain with or otherwise corrupt them would be valuable to most any Devil. Claiming a soul that pure is a very good way to gain some standing in Hell. And it's possible they could be seen as useful in other ways if they're not corruptible, like if they could be encouraged to try to eliminate a Devil's rival, or be used as a distraction by one while they make some move of their own. A Devil rival to whichever Archfiend they're after who finds out what they're up to may even quite legitimately seek to aid them, as long as they can keep it quiet so it doesn't blow up in their face in case the group fails.

In other words, will they draw attention? Likely, though it's not like their arrival will immediately draw every eye on the plane to them, they're not that important. How will the Devils of Avernus react upon noticing them? They will scheme and try to turn the situation to their advantage. Corrupting them or claiming their souls would be the ultimate prize, but failing that, there are other ways they could use a few overzealous Paladins foolish enough to set foot in Hell itself.

[Psyren]

I'll also point out that in 5e, four paladins doesn't necessarily mean any of them have pure souls; we don't know the alignments of the PCs in question. In fact, all of the deities listed can have followers of neutral alignment, and Helm/Tempus can even have evil ones.

[Zevox]

I'll also point out that in 5e, four paladins doesn't necessarily mean any of them have pure souls; we don't know the alignments of the PCs in question. In fact, all of the deities listed can have followers of neutral alignment, and Helm/Tempus can even have evil ones.
True, it does also depend upon the individuals and the Oaths that they follow. Devotion, Ancients, Redemption, and the like will probably get the kind of attention you'd expect from a classic Paladin, even if their alignments are more neutral personally; but an Oath of Conquest Paladin is basically already on the Devils' path, no need to target them for corruption (unless they're somehow pulling off that oath while good-aligned, maybe), or Oath of Vengeance could go a number of ways depending on the individual and who their sworn enemies are.

[GloatingSwine]

I think the core question to remember, that every devil is going to be asking themself when they deal with these Paladins is: "What's in it for me?"

[HoboKnight]

Really appreciate the answers. So it's more like 5 super-competent operators(military style) appearing in a massive favella, where 5 different cartels are in an active war against each other. Cartel bosses will be informed of groups arrival, but will not care, if group does not work against them. And if group has one of the bosses as a target, other bosses might even help them achieve their goal.

[Unoriginal]

Really appreciate the answers. So it's more like 5 super-competent operators(military style) appearing in a massive favella, where 5 different cartels are in an active war against each other. Cartel bosses will be informed of groups arrival, but will not care, if group does not work against them. And if group has one of the bosses as a target, other bosses might even help them achieve their goal.

It's more like "5 people who were a big deal in their home village show up on a World War 1 battlefield".

[animorte]

The demon bartender asks "why the wrong faith?"
Underrated. Thanks for this. +13 5/8

You've been underappreciated for this comment so allow me to remedy that :smallbiggrin:
Right!

[Chronos]

When they first arrive, and are just standing there, they won't be any more or less conspicuous than any other mortal... but the moment they smite anything or use any Channel Divinity, they'll stand out like a sore thumb. Both of those use energies that are inherently inimical to fiends, which should mean that fiends can very easily detect those energies, even if they're not the direct target.

[Unoriginal]

When they first arrive, and are just standing there, they won't be any more or less conspicuous than any other mortal... but the moment they smite anything or use any Channel Divinity, they'll stand out like a sore thumb. Both of those use energies that are inherently inimical to fiends, which should mean that fiends can very easily detect those energies, even if they're not the direct target.

Most fiends don't have any special detecting capacities regarding smites or Channel Divinity, or even energies inherently inimical to them in general.

[Chronos]

There are no explicit rules stating that they can sense it. That doesn't mean they can't. DMs are not limited to what the rules explicitly state.

[Unoriginal]

There are no explicit rules stating that they can sense it. That doesn't mean they can't. DMs are not limited to what the rules explicitly state.

Fair, but IMO it doesn't make narrative sense for most of the Fiends to be able to do it, either.

Otherwise they would feel divine interventions and smites in the Material Plane too.

It would make sense for the big wigs who have dominion over some territory or similar. Mahadi's Wandering Emporium has a "no fighting! No spellcasting! No exception!" rule in place, which wouldn' work if such things couldn't be detected, and IIRC Zariel demonstrates she can identify a Paladin on sight.

[tKUUNK]

When they first arrive, and are just standing there, they won't be any more or less conspicuous than any other mortal... but the moment they smite anything or use any Channel Divinity, they'll stand out like a sore thumb. Both of those use energies that are inherently inimical to fiends, which should mean that fiends can very easily detect those energies, even if they're not the direct target.

Yeah, this. It would be a fun thing to make sure your players understand in advance that channeling too much divine power in Hell will draw attention. Let them get away with a trickle here & there. But too much at once, and...yeah.

From a game mechanic standpoint this can offer a fun trade-off for players. Do we use our abilities to make the current situation simpler? Or keep doing things the hard way to fly under the radar a bit longer?

Then of course there could be that inevitable encounter which requires the use of all abilities. Where it goes from there? Who knows!

[Bohandas]

As an aside, did the title of this thread remind anybody else of the intro sequence to the old reality show MTV's The Real World

[Psyren]

Fair, but IMO it doesn't make narrative sense for most of the Fiends to be able to do it, either.

Otherwise they would feel divine interventions and smites in the Material Plane too.

I don't think this logic necessariy follows. It stands to reason that Hell might have a means of identifying a visiting paladin - and we don't even know if these four are taking steps to hide what they are, like stowing anything they own with a holy symbol emblazoned on it, avoiding praying for spells in the morning, pretending to be something else etc.

[Unoriginal]

I don't think this logic necessariy follows. It stands to reason that Hell might have a means of identifying a visiting paladin - and we don't even know if these four are taking steps to hide what they are, like stowing anything they own with a holy symbol emblazoned on it, avoiding praying for spells in the morning, pretending to be something else etc.

I'm not saying that Hell doesn't, I'm saying it doesn't make sense for me if Devil grunts can do it.

[Psyren]

I'm not saying that Hell doesn't, I'm saying it doesn't make sense for me if Devil grunts can do it.

Point, but the OP did ask about some of the archdevils on the plane too.

[Analytica]

If I was an archdevil, I would want to:
1) use this group against my rival
2) guide them to appropriate challenges so they level up enough to become powerful enough for that while
3) setting enough morality traps along the way that it will be too late when they realize I have corrupted them in fundamental ways, then
4) explore their fall and the fallout thereof to wreak havoc outside of Avernus as well

[GloatingSwine]

3) setting enough morality traps along the way that it will be too late when they realize I have corrupted them in fundamental ways, then
4) explore their fall and the fallout thereof to wreak havoc outside of Avernus as well

Nah, "make the paladin fall" is cliche.

Make them want a bit of extra power and offer to be their patron for that Warlock dip...

[Grim Portent]

The obvious thing for devils in Avernus to want to do is get the paladins to help in the Blood War, even if only for a brief time. Paladins are extra effective against fiends, which of course includes demons.

Devils generally speaking have jobs to do, such as the squad of Bearded Devils in DiA tasked with culling demonic chickens and cutting down the abyssal trees that sprouted from the blood of slain demons, but a lot of devils can be assumed to resent their jobs. They're menial, tedious, dangerous or otherwise unpleasant compared to sitting around or torturing those weaker than themselves, and finishing quickly may warrant some minor reward. Such a minor group might try to get the paladins to help cull the demon chickens or cut down trees in exchange for information or similar goods/services.

More significant devils might want the party to help repel a group of demons, help heal injured devil soldiers, protect messengers and so on. Things of minor importance to the blood war or the devil's personal standing in Hell.

Major devils like Bec would want to use them as catspaws to undermine Zariel, who in turn would want to use them to undermine Bec. The two cannot openly act against each other, but scheming is perfectly allowed. Using the paladins as champions against a particularly powerful demon assault they are too preoccupied to quash themselves would also make sense.

Some devils may want to try and corrupt them to the side of evil, perhaps by trying to convince them that the Blood War is more important than their mortal or divine duties and that only through embracing the powers of Baator can they make a real difference. A parallel to Zariel's own fall from grace. At level 12 they're probably too powerful for any devil to want to just take their souls to use as currency or kill indiscriminately, these are substantial assets worth far more alive and allied than dead or as enemies.

[Analytica]

Nah, "make the paladin fall" is cliche.

Make them want a bit of extra power and offer to be their patron for that Warlock dip...

In my mind that would be a perfect example of a paladin falling? I don't mean losing their powers in a game sense, but perhaps much later they will realize that at some point, their now much greater power flows from a source other than it originally did, thanks to each corner they chose to cut when a shortcut presented itself along the way, and they wake to realize that for all their strength, they are no longer a net force of good in the world.

Or they persevere, pass up the opportunities to gain something by yielding to temptation time and time again, and in the end are champions both pure and by that point powerful enough to make a difference for what happens at the end, not in the sense of the outcome of a final boss battle, but in the sense of what the epilogue will look like.

[LumenPlacidum]

It might be from a much earlier edition, but I seem to recall that the arrival of a paladin, angel or the like on Avernus was experienced inaudibly by its inhabitants like a giant gong and that the powers that be could FEEL their presence on the layer.

I think the lore started to shy away from that when books about fairly casually going to Hell for adventure started to get published (on account of its basically being a death sentence).

Then there were the old rules about what powers worked on what planes...

That said, I agree that the powers would probably co-opt the paladins to accomplish some wet work against demons or to off rivals so the devil can advance in the hierarchy.

[Jerrykhor]

They argue that their Aura of Protections stacks with each other :smallbiggrin:

[Clause]

They die!!


Al things that exist in this hell, will attack them at the first glance

[Leon]

Previous editions, probably quite a lot. This edition not so much since a paladin can run all the Alignments and is powered by strong belief in a cause

[Witty Username]

Go full Hell as tourists trap. At least 13 nigerian princes scams in the first 5 min.

Devils know a contract with a Paladin is the good stuff, and as I just read Demons try to actively avoid drawing other planes into the Blood War (it gives the Devils street cred they don't need). Conflict should happen and chaos should ensue, but understand starting a quarrel with the group has consequences.

Mess with Zariel though and the party should get face full of fire and brimstone.
--
One of my favorite, off the cuff, NPCs was a quasit, evil to the core but alone and kinda weak with a deck of cards and a couple gaming sets. The idea is peaceful contact with an evil outsider is a minor sin, and a friendly card game is peaceful contact. My goal was just to see what the party would do. They ended up playing a couple games and learning about a few of the traps in the dungeon during the light conversation.

[GloatingSwine]

They die!!


Al things that exist in this hell, will attack them at the first glance

Not really.

They're level 12, which means they're not easy pickings but nor are they great champions you can earn renown for defeating. For most intelligent beings attacking them is a risk without an equivalent payoff. And for self-interested beings like the embodiments of evil, it's all about the payoff.

But they're also Paladins, which means they have codes and oaths and, if you're an enterprisingly minded individual that means you can figure out what their levers are going to be and push them towards positive outcomes for yourself. And if you can convince one or two of them that they're in over their head and could use the sort of help only you can provide, well...