Is 0% the same as Impossible?

[Benejeseret]

Seems a silly question doesn't it?

But really...is it the same or is it different?


Here is why it matters.

Many rogue build I have seen rely on a poorly written feat rule: Pierce Magical Concealment.
((why is it poorly written you ask - because its name clearly implies it should work only for concealment, however by RAW its writeup allows any magical percent miss chance to be ignored.))

Which then begs the question - what is any miss chance?

Let us say that there is a magical, guaranteed, 100% miss chance with a 0% chance of hitting..........does Pierce Magical Concealment feat ignore it entirely?

Is something impossible defined by 100% / 0% associated numbers?


The Meat: Being Ethereal, one is unable to interact with the material plane. Ethereal beings see the material (greyed) but pass through it and no physical or magical effects from the ethereal plane can effect the material plane. Thus it is impossible to normally hit something on the material plane. The exception being the Ninja's Ghost Strike which explicitly verbalizes the ability to strike the material plane while ethereal for one standard action.

To me, impossible is impossible. It is not a 100% miss chance....it is in a whole different category.

But others clearly see impossible to hit the material plane as a 100% miss chance....which is then negated by Pierce Magical Concealment.

Why do I think I'm right and why does it matter?

Blink to me reads that 50% of the time you are material and 50% of the time you are ethereal. Thus to me 50% of the time material you strike as normal but 50% it is impossible to strike the material plane at all. Thus your strikes only land 50% of the time (unless you are a ninja using Ghost Strike).

Blink to others means a 50% chance to strike normally on material and a 50% time striking ethereal with a 100% miss chance negated by P.M.C. to mean that every hit always lands.

Does anyone else see my problems with this logic gap?

Planes to me are big deals. The use of P.M.C in this manner to me is like saying, "I throw a splash weapon into that square over there and everything everywhere in ever reality that overlays with all possible existence on this 5' square gets burnt."

This means a ghost on the ethereal plane, a greater shadow on the shadow plane, the goblin on the material plane, a traveller on the astral plane and an infinity of things on an infinity of possible plane ALL get automatically hit because you managed the AC5 to hit the square with P.M.C as a feat.

THEN add in the fact that it is not limited by range, or the type of attack. Thus if you ever get your hands on a nuke, or similar DnD superweapon go straight for P.M.C 'cause oh my god what an infinity of pain you can cast forth onto all realities.


P.S. and don't even go into the other cheese combo with the same misconceptions like the rogue with a ring a blink
and a ghost touched weapon. Ghost touch works on incorporeal...incorporeal is not the same as ethereal and so does not apply to ethereal in any way.

/rant

[Kaelik]

The problem with you whole argument is that no matter what you think Blink means (By the way, the miss chance is only 20% not 50%) it doesn't say that 20% of the time you have a 100% miss chance, it says every single attack has a 20% miss chance.

Because of the way Pierce Magical Concealment works it ignores that miss chance. If you have a problem with this you have a few options;

1) Don't allow the feat.
2) Houserule that it only works on concealment, or only when you think it should.
3) Think about it differently. If hating Magic gives you an almost supernatural ability to tell exactly where invisible people are, maybe hating magic enough allows you to attack when you are least effected by the magic (or the other person is least effected if they are blinking.)

You don't ignore the miss chance because you still hit them from the other plane, you ignore the miss chance because you can feel the magic leave you, and so you know that you are fully on this plane.

[AKA_Bait]

I would tend to agree with you here. Spells and the like that grant a percentage miss chance explicitly state that they grant a miss chance. The definition of Ethereal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#etherealness)does no such thing. Additionally, there are spells that affect the Ethereal which are specifically mentioned. Also, I belive, Transdimensional Spell expicitlly states that it can hit things on other planes. Unless Peirce Magical concealment says that it can effect other planes, it doesn't allow you to do so.

One point about hitting an infinite number of other planes: I don't think that would be accurate even under the other interpretation. The only planes that would be hit are the ones that are coterminus with the material plane. That's the Ethereal, Astral and Shadow I think.

[Kaelik]

I would tend to agree with you here. Spells and the like that grant a percentage miss chance explicitly state that they grant a miss chance. The definition of Ethereal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#etherealness)does no such thing. Additionally, there are spells that affect the Ethereal which are specifically mentioned. Also, I belive, Transdimensional Spell expicitlly states that it can hit things on other planes. Unless Peirce Magical concealment says that it can effect other planes, it doesn't allow you to do so.

One point about hitting an infinite number of other planes: I don't think that would be accurate even under the other interpretation. The only planes that would be hit are the ones that are coterminus with the material plane. That's the Ethereal, Astral and Shadow I think.

He's not really saying that the feat allows you to make that attack, only that it makes as much logical sense because both of them involve breaking planar barriers.

However you are right, Etherealness does not grant a miss chance, and so therefore you could not strike someone under ethreal jaunt with the feat. But with feats that specifically grant miss chances (Blink and Greater Blink) it doesn't matter if the miss chance is granted because of being on another plane or because of concealment, you can disregard it as long as it comes from a spell or SLA. However I already gave an explanation of why that makes sense in the case of such spells.

[Person_Man]

The rules of D&D are not based on logic. They are based how the text is written. Pierce Magical Concealment allow someone to ignore the miss chance from any magical spell or effect. Spells and effects that grant a percentage miss chance explicitly state that they grant a miss chance. The definition of Ethereal does no such thing. Don't worry about the fact that it doesn't make any sense. You're just killing cat girls.