LATE entry prcs?

[H_H_F_F]

There have been countless discussions on PRCs that can be easily entered ASAP. What are some PRCs that can only be entered very late in one's career, even if utilizing all the tricks in one's disposal? Looking for non-epic PRCs that can't be entered before ECL 11 - the later the better.

Archmage and Hierophant, obviously. Heir of Syberis jumps to mind, as does Legacy Champion. What else?

[Paragon]

Is Sublime Chord considered very late ?
If so, Seeker of the Song as well

[H_H_F_F]

Is Sublime Chord considered very late ?
If so, Seeker of the Song as well

True - both of those cannot normally be entered before ECL 11, so they fit the definition given in the OP.

[Inevitability]

What about Moonspeaker? Can be entered as your 9th level, but can't be finished until level 20.

If that doesn't count, Magelord demands 5th-level arcane spells, 4 feats, a nonlawful alignment, and evasion, so entering it at level 11 is already non-trivial. Wizard 7 / Bonus Feat Rogue 2 / Nar Demonbinder 1 could do it, but most PCs won't get in until level 12 at the earliest.

[Zanos]

Yeah, magelord is pretty notable because you literally can't finish it pre-epic with a normal entry. It's a 10 level class. And this is for a class whose flavor is basically just a bandit wizard...

[Gruftzwerg]

Exemplar is a close call. It requires 13 ranks in a skill. Since there is a feat (can't recall the name..) that effectively increases your ranks in a skill by one, it can be theoretically entered at lvl 10 already.

[Maat Mons]

Contemplative is a classic for divine casters.

I'm assuming that by "entered at ECL 11," you mean that you'll be ECL 11 once you have your first level, not that you'll be ECL 11 just to meet the prerequisites.

[Inevitability]

Initiate of Pistis Sophia is another notorious one: you need Sanctify Ki Strike for it, which requires Ki Strike (Lawful), which you get at level 10 of monk, but you don't get a feat at level 10 so the straight monk entry is monk 12 / initiate 8 and you need some shenanigans (like the dragonborn transformation feat swap) to get all 10 levels in.

That said, there's a dragon magazine compendium prc that gets ki strike lawful slightly sooner, so does that mean the PrC doesn't count?

[Thurbane]

Ancient Master (although you have to be Yuan-ti anyway, so...)

[noce]

Eternal Blade and Deepstone Sentinel?

[loky1109]

Yuan-Ti Cultist.
Illithid Savant.
Slaad Brooder.

[Gruftzwerg]

Beholder Mage

And before you say Polymorph any Object as early entry, NO that doesn't work.
PaO is still limited by the target's HD. Unless you have 11HD you can't polymorph into a True Beholder.
Thus you get your first level at ECL 12, no matter how you try to enter the class.

[Rebel7284]

There are a few draconimicon PrCs that can be difficult to enter. Dragon Ascendant comes to mind with its 30 BAB prerequisite.

[Maat Mons]

Looking at an excellent list (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?493135), Fochlucan Lyrist, Dragonscribe, Aeromancer, Incantifier, Dispassionate Watcher of Chronepsis, Sacred Warder of Bahamut, Unholy Ravager of Tiamat, Forest Master, and Coiled Cabalist are some that haven’t been mentioned, at least, not by name.

[ciopo]

Draogn rider requires BAB 10

there are a bunch of PrC requiring BAB 7 or 8, which is entry at ECL10-11 if the entry is a medium BAB base class

[daremetoidareyo]

Fleshwarper has late entry. You need 10 ranks in heal to choose the graft flesh feat, meaning that you need an open feat slot at level 7 at the earliest, although typically, you wind up waiting until 9th level.

[loky1109]

Beholder Mage
BM is bad example. You couldn't entry it at all without cheese.
My examples are PrCs for monsters with listed LA.

[Bad Wolf]

Eternal Blade is a PrC that requires +10 BAB, if that counts.

[InvisibleBison]

And before you say Polymorph any Object as early entry, NO that doesn't work.
PaO is still limited by the target's HD. Unless you have 11HD you can't polymorph into a True Beholder.
Thus you get your first level at ECL 12, no matter how you try to enter the class.

I'm not 100% convinced this is correct. The rules for spell chains are quite clear: "Only information about a spell eslewhere in the spell chain that is different from the base spell is covered in the spell being described." So since PaO doesn't say that it overrides the rule in Polymorph that the assumed form cannot have more HD than the target, it retains that rule. Except PaO kind of does say that - at least one of the example transformations, lizard to manticore, violates that rule. Now if the rule was part of PaO instead of being inherited from Polymorph, this would be a simple case of text trumps table, but the rule is just that - text trumps table, not absence of text trumps table. Why should we assume that the example is an error, and not the lack of text explicitly confirming what the table implies?

[The Viscount]

Yathrinshee requires a minimum of 8 class levels to fulfill the requirements, plus 2 lost to Level Adjustment for Drow, as written.

[Gruftzwerg]

I'm not 100% convinced this is correct. The rules for spell chains are quite clear: "Only information about a spell eslewhere in the spell chain that is different from the base spell is covered in the spell being described." So since PaO doesn't say that it overrides the rule in Polymorph that the assumed form cannot have more HD than the target, it retains that rule. Except PaO kind of does say that - at least one of the example transformations, lizard to manticore, violates that rule. Now if the rule was part of PaO instead of being inherited from Polymorph, this would be a simple case of text trumps table, but the rule is just that - text trumps table, not absence of text trumps table. Why should we assume that the example is an error, and not the lack of text explicitly confirming what the table implies?

I get what you mean, but having no HD cap would mean no balancing cap. Do you really think that this was intended?
I mean look at Shapechange, even that has a HD cap. (that was even lowered with the ERRATA iirc)
Sorry, but I don't buy that PaO can turn a fly into an epic lvl monster..

Yeah I know of the examples, but that wouldn't be the first time that WotC provides us with broken/dysfunctional examples. By RAW the text trumps table as you said yourself and PaO did say nothing to change the limitations set by Polymorph. PaO is imho one of those things in 3.5 where the authors didn't know what they where doing there. They had a nice idea, but they didn't get how to make functional rules around it.
It's either dysfunctional in some aspects or totally broken (compared to Shapechange!).

If you like to debate this further, we should maybe make another tread. This seems like it can quickly escalate into a bigger discussion imho. (and I don't intend to derail this thread^^).

[noce]

Yathrinshee requires a minimum of 8 class levels to fulfill the requirements, plus 2 lost to Level Adjustment for Drow, as written.

But it could be entered two levels earlier with half-drow or lesser drow.

[Thurbane]

I might be missing something obvious, but even even the PaO trick for entry to Beholder Mage worked, wouldn't the character then become an NPC, as a Beholder has no official LA?

[Zanos]

I might be missing something obvious, but even even the PaO trick for entry to Beholder Mage worked, wouldn't the character then become an NPC, as a Beholder has no official LA?
Not anymore than polymorph does. You don't gain HD or LA from PaO, since it functions as polymorph. Although the spell has always been hard to interpret, since you can transmute objects with no HD into creatures which would have to have HD.

[Gruftzwerg]

I might be missing something obvious, but even even the PaO trick for entry to Beholder Mage worked, wouldn't the character then become an NPC, as a Beholder has no official LA?
As Zanos said.

And nobody forces you to become a Beholder permanently. You sole need it to enter the prc.

To get the Eye Stalks for spellcasting there is the Warshaper 1 dip. Grow em with Morphic Weapons. Now you can use em in other forms. Have a look at my contest build (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25368609&postcount=42) if you should be interested.

[Thurbane]

Not anymore than polymorph does. You don't gain HD or LA from PaO, since it functions as polymorph. Although the spell has always been hard to interpret, since you can transmute objects with no HD into creatures which would have to have HD.

So, basically every character should pay a caster for a PaO into some powerful monstrous form as soon as they can afford it? :smallfrown:

Would that fly at most tables? LA is a thing for monsters for a reason.


And nobody forces you to become a Beholder permanently. You sole need it to enter the prc.

Fair point I guess. Still, at a table where this kind of thing is accepted, wouldn't everyone be Pun Pun anyway?

I don't mean to be snarky or combative, but it sometimes feels like some TO-as-actual-gameplay groups out there set out to break the game with RAW loopholes, then get surprised that the massive arms race that ensues doesn't end up being a whole lot of fun to play long term. At least, based on some anecdotes I see on forums.

[Zanos]

So, basically every character should pay a caster for a PaO into some powerful monstrous form as soon as they can afford it? :smallfrown:

Would that fly at most tables? LA is a thing for monsters for a reason.
I mean, yeah. PaO is widely regarded as being overpowered. In many ways it's just polymorph with all of the already quite pathetic limiters on it removed. If you generate above a certain amount of WBL it's certainly mechanically advantageous to be permanently polymorphed into something with much better physical characteristics. I did see one guy with 8 in all his physical stats get killed because he got dispelled though, since he cheaped out on the caster level.

Would it fly at most tables to pay 2400gp to permanently be polymorphed into something with 20+ or even 30+ in all their physical stats? Probably not.

[Gruftzwerg]

So, basically every character should pay a caster for a PaO into some powerful monstrous form as soon as they can afford it? :smallfrown:

Would that fly at most tables? LA is a thing for monsters for a reason.



Fair point I guess. Still, at a table where this kind of thing is accepted, wouldn't everyone be Pun Pun anyway?

I don't mean to be snarky or combative, but it sometimes feels like some TO-as-actual-gameplay groups out there set out to break the game with RAW loopholes, then get surprised that the massive arms race that ensues doesn't end up being a whole lot of fun to play long term. At least, based on some anecdotes I see on forums.

1. IIRC I have never seen a PaO cast in an actual play in my 20+ years of 3.5. I barely play higher lvls and almost never get to play at higher optimization tables.

2. High lvl spells are most often broken by default. Remind you that a (persisted?) Shapechange is unlocked 2 lvls later. And that gives you all EX and SU abilities... So if you(r group) plays with Shapechange I don't get why you see a problem here. The problem as always in 3.5 is MAGIC and its broken power scaling over the spell levels..

3. There are many groups who permanently cheat by having "GOD-mode" always on. Nobody will ever die. Some people dislike such tables, others enjoy em. Imho same here. It's up to you with what you have fun. Imho this is like arguing about plot armor or the powers of the main character of an epic fantasy movie. It's up to you if you enjoy it or not. And nothing is wrong if you don't like it.


3.5 is already Rocket Tag at the higher levels. And if you have full casters, it becomes often a strategical fight between spells. And this can even go so far back that the actual encounter hasn't even started yet (divination spells and their counters). In a world where everything is dominated by magic I feel like that PaO cheese to qualify for PRC (that is not Incantatrix / Spelldancer / Planar Shepherd /..) is the least problem here. (sure BM is very strong, but not as broken by itself as the others mentioned here)

And if you wanna really talk about "game breaking builds", explain me how to play any high lvl wizard according to his high INT without actually breaking the game? How do you explain that he don't use game breaking spells & strategies... You don't... It's always the same dilemma..

Imho higher levels of magic always rely on a gentlemen agreement to not break the game (depending on what your DM and the rest of the party is able to handle)

[Prime32]

The 5-level "legendary classes" from Polyhedron #152 each require 15 skill ranks and can't be multiclassed out of until complete (Ghost Bear also needs rage and three feats, while Witch Queen needs 5th level arcane spells). You can't take levels in them unless you declare your intention 2 levels in advance, after which you can no longer level up except in the way you declared. Even after that, you cannot enter the class unless you select a feat of the DM's choice (decided after you're locked in) and perform a task ranging in difficulty from "kill a bear with your bare hands" to "convince a close ally of a wizard higher level than yourself to betray them and swear allegiance to you, without using magic or harming the wizard".

Is all that trouble worth it? Witch Queen gives you six cohorts.

[Beni-Kujaku]

The 5-level "legendary classes" from Polyhedron #152 each require 15 skill ranks and can't be multiclassed out of until complete (Ghost Bear also needs rage and three feats, while Witch Queen needs 5th level arcane spells).

Here is {Scrubbed} for those who want to check it out themselves (combined pdf Dungeon 93/Ph #152). Legendary classes start at page 94 of the PDF.

[pabelfly]

{Scrubbed}

[Zanos]

1. IIRC I have never seen a PaO cast in an actual play in my 20+ years of 3.5. I barely play higher lvls and almost never get to play at higher optimization tables.

2. High lvl spells are most often broken by default. Remind you that a (persisted?) Shapechange is unlocked 2 lvls later. And that gives you all EX and SU abilities... So if you(r group) plays with Shapechange I don't get why you see a problem here. The problem as always in 3.5 is MAGIC and its broken power scaling over the spell levels.
The issue is that PaO is not a personal spell, and potentially has a permanent duration, and has no expensive components. It's within the WBL of relatively low level characters to hire a spellcaster to permanently polymorph them into something very nasty.

[Chronos]

I always assume that if the polymorph is good enough that you count as a beholder for purposes of leveling up, then it's also good enough that you count as a beholder for purposes of leveling up. Or in other words, any creature that meets the prerequisite to become a Beholder Mage also has LA --, and thus can't level up by any means other than DM fiat.

[Quertus]

So, basically every character should pay a caster for a PaO into some powerful monstrous form as soon as they can afford it? :smallfrown:

Would that fly at most tables? LA is a thing for monsters for a reason.


1. IIRC I have never seen a PaO cast in an actual play in my 20+ years of 3.5. I barely play higher lvls and almost never get to play at higher optimization tables.


The issue is that PaO is not a personal spell, and potentially has a permanent duration, and has no expensive components. It's within the WBL of relatively low level characters to hire a spellcaster to permanently polymorph them into something very nasty.

I think my brother waited until his second 3e Character to pull out the power of (paying someone to cast) PaO. It does leave you enchanted, and vulnerable to Dispel, but IMO it’s a much better use of “expended” resources than, say, potions.

[ciopo]

In all my years of adventuring, I've never been in a city big enough to contain a 15th level wizard

[Inevitability]

Verdant Lord arguably qualifies: it requires the ability to cast Control Plants, which is an 8th-level druid spell as a result of an unfortunate 3.5 update (it was a 4th-level spell before).

[Tzardok]

Verdant Lord arguably qualifies: it requires the ability to cast Control Plants, which is an 8th-level druid spell as a result of an unfortunate 3.5 update (it was a 4th-level spell before).

IIRC that's because of a renaming. The spell that used to be Control Plants is now Command Plants (still 4th level), while the new Control Plants is either a new spell or was named differently before.

[loky1109]

Verdant Lord arguably qualifies: it requires the ability to cast Control Plants, which is an 8th-level druid spell as a result of an unfortunate 3.5 update (it was a 4th-level spell before).

It's still is 4th level spell. It just has another name.
There were two spells "Control Plants" and "Command Plants" and these two spells exchanged names when 3.5 was coming.