Magelord

[Maat Mons]

I just learned about this PrC from another thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?657494-LATE-entry-prcs). I have some questions and comments but didn’t want to derail things over there.


Magelord demands 5th-level arcane spells, 4 feats, a nonlawful alignment, and evasion, so entering it at level 11 is already non-trivial. Wizard 7 / Bonus Feat Rogue 2 / Nar Demonbinder 1 could do it, but most PCs won't get in until level 12 at the earliest.


Yeah, magelord is pretty notable because you literally can't finish it pre-epic with a normal entry. It's a 10 level class. And this is for a class whose flavor is basically just a bandit wizard...

If you can convince your DM to let Divine Oracle’s evasion-but-better ability count for the prerequisite, you could do Wizard 5 / Divine Oracle 2 / whatever 2 / Magelord X. Obviously, you’d want to use the Fighter-Feat variant of Wizard, to grab Improved Initiative and Weapon Focus (ray). A little bit of DM fiat, but it’s just letting a strictly better ability count as a lesser one.

Combat Medic is possible, but hard on the feats. Loredelver works but loses a caster level. You could try to convince your DM to allow Master Specialist’s Moderate School Esoterica for abjuration to qualify. But if your DM makes you lose PrC features when you lose prerequisites, that could be awkward. If you have the Shadow Creature template from an item, does that count as having Evasion as a racial ability? No, wait, it's only the Dark Creature template you can get from an item. Is there any normal-ish race that gets Evasion as a racial ability?

Just to have fun with the bandit Wizard angle, you could use the Domain Granted Power ACF to get Trapfinding, and Divine Oracle 5 to qualify for the Trap Sensitivity feat. Not a powerful option, but it would be kind of thematic. Domain Granted power might not be compatible with Fighter Feat Wizard. Ask your DM.

Leaning into the memorization angle, you could be an Eidetic Wizard. Is there any way to gain additional Mastered spells, beyond the ones from the feat and the extra ones from Magelord? Oh wait, there’s that Illusionist variant that gives you free Spell Mastery with all illusion spells you know. Anything else? Sadly, Eidetic Wizard probably doesn’t count as Spell Mastery for Magelord’s spontaneous casting ability. Uncanny Forethought is, of course, great. But with limited uses per day, it would be nice to have Signature Supremacy for the at-will use, and reserve Uncanny Forethought for non-Mastered spells.

[Anthrowhale]

You could use Spelldancer as well, but an 8 feat tax is remarkably steep.

You could do martial wizard for 2, armor of mobility for 1, human bonus for 1, then class levels 1,3,6,9 for 4 more---it barely works. I guess the good news is that you are set for persistomancy by level 15.

[Darg]

The initiate of draconic mysteries from Draconomicon grants evasion at first level. A familiar gives you the alertness feat, and combat wizard gives you 2 of the 3 fighter bonus feats needed. This leaves only 4 more feats which matches up with your level based 4 from 1st, 3rd, 6th, and 9th.

If you can get divine oracle to work, it's definitely an easier entry as you don't also need to get jump as a class skill.

[pabelfly]

You could also get in with Mystic Ranger 10. You'd still be stuck at fifth-level spells for the rest of your career because of Mystic Ranger casting, but you could do it.

Edit: How about the Impulse Boots feet chakra bind? I'm kinda iffy on my soulmeldinging, but if you can fit the feats in, this gives you Evasion.

[Rebel7284]

You could use Spelldancer as well, but an 8 feat tax is remarkably steep.

You could do martial wizard for 2, armor of mobility for 1, human bonus for 1, then class levels 1,3,6,9 for 4 more---it barely works. I guess the good news is that you are set for persistomancy by level 15.

Came here to suggest this. While Spelldancer probably carries this built more than Magelord, it's certainly possible with a combination of Martial Wizard and feat-granting items/dips. Shadahkar's Swift Wind (Sandals) from Dragon 324 p. 75 grants endurance for example and Armor of Mobility has been mentioned. In addition, if you're good aligned, Dragonborn can often help shuffle around some bonus feats and at higher optimization levels, racial bonus feats + Dark Chaos shuffle can help too.

Regardless of how you get enough feats, you probably have Uncanny Forethought and ways to mitigate costs of Metamagic which leads to a fairly powerful and flexible character, if a "bit" convoluted mechanically.

[Darg]

Edit: How about the Impulse Boots feet chakra bind? I'm kinda iffy on my soulmeldinging, but if you can fit the feats in, this gives you Evasion.

It needs to be a class feature or racial feature. If spells don't qualify I don't think soulmelds would either.

[Maat Mons]

Is there an easy way to get Perform as a class skill, to meet the prerequisite ranks for Spelldancer? Or would that require another feat?

[Thurbane]

You can get Evasion without losing caster levels: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?528237

Loredelver, for instance - but it has a lot of skill reqs of it's own, and locks in your race. Never mind, it would delay entry even further.

For skills, a dip into Human Paragon and Able Learner helps a lot, though it costs a caster level. On the plus side, it does give a bonus feat.

[Bullet06320]

No, wait, it's only the Dark Creature template you can get from an item. Is there any normal-ish race that gets Evasion as a racial ability?
no races that i know of grant evasion bet here's the invasion index, you might find ideas
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?528237


Is there an easy way to get Perform as a class skill, to meet the prerequisite ranks for Spelldancer? Or would that require another feat?
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?491181-Alternative-ways-to-get-new-Class-skills&p=20885236#post20885236
check my favorite thread for how to get class skills

[Anthrowhale]

Is there an easy way to get Perform as a class skill, to meet the prerequisite ranks for Spelldancer? Or would that require another feat?

Halfling Whistler (https://web.archive.org/web/20180209014258/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20061121a) with a strongheart halfling appears viable.


Shadahkar's Swift Wind (Sandals) from Dragon 324 p. 75 grants endurance
Nice.

One nifty thing about Magelord is that it grants sneak attack straight up, potentially allowing entry to Spellwarp Sniper or even Arcane Trickster with a hop in Unseen Seer without compromising spell advancement.

[Rebel7284]

You can get Evasion without losing caster levels: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?528237

Loredelver, for instance - but it has a lot of skill reqs of it's own, and locks in your race. Never mind, it would delay entry even further.

For skills, a dip into Human Paragon and Able Learner helps a lot, though it costs a caster level. On the plus side, it does give a bonus feat.

Human Paragon should be sufficient without Able Learner. It's only 6 ranks in Perform and you are probably heavily invested in Int. Something like Martial Wizard 5/Human Paragon 3/Spelldancer 2 definitely qualifies and gets you a bonus feat and +2 to a stat too!

If flaws or dark chaos feat shuffle is allowed, it makes it even easier.

[Kaleph]

For completeness, this could also work:

1) Wizard // spell mastery, signature spell, improved iniziative
2) Wizard
3) Wizard // shape soulmeld (impulse boots)
4) Wizard
5) Wizard // weapon focus
6) Wizard // open least chakra (feet)

Impulse boots give the vanilla evasion ability, this qualifies as "evasion special quality as class feature" at my table. I understand that it's controversial, but that's my take on it (and some DMs would allow it in a real game).

[Darg]

Gaming the "class feature" requirement is just as homebrewy as simply lowering the required spell level to 4th which is what I'd personally do.

[Anthrowhale]

Just to be clear, the following seems to be a fully legal way to enter Magelord after level 9 with one feat to spare using suggestions above while avoiding any casting advancement delay.

Strongheart Halfling Martial Wizard 5/Halfling Whistler 2/Spelldancer 2/Magelord <x>

Strongheart Halfling: Weapon Focus(Ray)
1. Spell Mastery
Wizard 1: Improved Initiative
3. Combat Casting
Wizard 5: Dodge
Mithril Chain Shirt+1+Mobility:Mobility (5k gp)
Shadahkar's Swift Wind: Endurance (8.325K gp)
6. Signature Spell
9. <free>
12. <free>
15. <free>
18. <free>

[lylsyly]

UA Generic Expert 2 can knock out evasion and one other feat and intimidate plus perform 5, you've got 7 levels of wizard so you can cross class 1 rank in perforn ...

Generic expert 2 / Wizard 7 / Magelord 10 / Wizard +1. Or the same with martial rogue 2. No way around the language calling out evasion as a CLASS FEATURE,

Now I want to build one ;-)

[pabelfly]

UA Generic Expert 2 can knock out evasion and one other feat and intimidate plus perform 5, you've got 7 levels of wizard so you can cross class 1 rank in perforn ...

Generic expert 2 / Wizard 7 / Magelord 10 / Wizard +1. Or the same with martial rogue 2. No way around the language calling out evasion as a CLASS FEATURE,

Now I want to build one ;-)

You're not supposed to combine generic classes with base classes, unfortunately.

[Thurbane]

You're not supposed to combine generic classes with base classes, unfortunately.

Yes, this is something that is often (intentionally?) overlooked, especially on optimization forums.

[pabelfly]

Yes, this is something that is often (intentionally?) overlooked, especially on optimization forums.

I wouldn't say it's necessarily intentional, it's easy to forget that rule since we rarely use generic classes.

This brings up the point that Generic Spellcaster is a good way to get into the class. You get four skills as class skills, so you can pick Intimidate, Knowledge (Arcana) and Knowledge (History), you get Evasion as the Monk ability by bonus feat, and you get some other bonus feats to get into the class more easily.

Silverbrow Human
Generic Spellcaster 10/Magelord 10
Arcane casting, INT focus

H: Improved Initiative
GS 1: ????
3: Spell Mastery
GS 5: Weapon Focus (Ray)
6: Signature Spell
9: ????
GS 10: Evasion

Not sure what my other feats would be. Likely some metamagic feat to boost power and maybe Practical Metamagic to make it cheaper to use my metamagic.

EDIT: This wasn't a bad idea but you need at least one level of Wizard in your build for the Signature Spell feat.

[lylsyly]

Actually it says you "shouldn't" not that you can't!

[Maat Mons]

For the Halfling Whistler / Spelldancer build, can halflings meet the “at least one-eighth elven blood” requirement of spelldancer?



If I haven’t missed anything, where we’re at for way to gain true Evasion as a class feature are:

Full-Casting PrCs with Evasion

Combat Medic (requires Cure Light Wounds)
Spelldancer

Partial-Casting PrCs with Evasion

Fleet Runner of Ehlona (requires divine casting)
Itinerant Wanderer of Yondalla (requires divine casting)
Loredelver (requires Trapfinding)

Classes with Evasion at 1st Level

Initiate of Draconic Mysteries
Itinerant Warder of Yondalla (requires divine casting)

Classes with Evasion at 2nd+ Level

many

So, Arcane Disciple for Combat Medic, Domain Granted Power for Loredelver, or lots of feats for Spelldancer, then?

[Inevitability]

For the Halfling Whistler / Spelldancer build, can halflings meet the “at least one-eighth elven blood” requirement of spelldancer?

Elf + Demon -> Fey'ri
Fey'ri + Demon -> Cambion
Cambion + Halfling -> Wispling

[Anthrowhale]

For the Halfling Whistler / Spelldancer build, can halflings meet the “at least one-eighth elven blood” requirement of spelldancer?
I believe that's a transcription error on a website.



So, Arcane Disciple for Combat Medic, Domain Granted Power for Loredelver, or lots of feats for Spelldancer, then?
Combat Medic is tempting, but the reqs are rough since you need heal 8 as well as cure light wounds. Both of those are solvable with a feat, but that puts you up to the Spelldancer tax level where Spelldancer only requires 2 levels compared to Combat Medic's 4.

Heal 8 as a class skill without requiring a feat or a race choice that effectively costs a feat on a wizard seems to actually be possible if you play the "Fleshcrafter" from dragon #312, but then you can't do Martial Wizard, so it's a net lose feat-wise. The best approach I can see is:

Human Martial Wizard 5/Divine Oracle 1/Combat Medic 4/Magelord <x>
Human: Arcane Disciple[Healing Domain]
Martial Wizard 1: Improved Initiative
1: Combat Casting
3: Weapon Focus[Ray]
Martial Wizard 5: Dodge
Frog God's Fane: Skill Focus[Knowledge[Religion]]
6: Spell Mastery
9: Signature Spell

That ends up 1 feat worse and enters 1 level later than the spelldancer approach, although still with full spell advancement.

Incidentally, it appears that you can pay the Improved Initiative feat tax with the Silverhelm of the Guardian (https://web.archive.org/web/20161101074952/http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/mc/mc20020130a). Using that, the spelldancer approach looks like:

Strongheart Halfling Martial Wizard 5/Halfling Whistler 2/Spelldancer 2/Magelord <x>
Strongheart Halfling: Combat Casting
1. Spell Mastery
Wizard 1: Dodge
3. Signature Spell
Wizard 5: Weapon Focus(Ray)
Mithril Chain Shirt+1+Mobility:Mobility (5k gp)
Shadahkar's Swift Wind: Endurance (8.325K gp)
6. <free>
9. <free>
Silverhelm of the Guardian: Improved Initiative (20K gp) //<1/2 of wealth by level before level 10.
12. <free>
15. <free>
18. <free>

[Maat Mons]

Oh, yeah, sorry. I should have checked the actual book. But websites are so convenient. It looks like someone thought they were editing the page for Spellsinger. That kind of makes sense. The lore in the Spelldancer entry says they’re sometimes called spellsingers.

[Rebel7284]

@Anthrowhale if you're going for Divine Oracle anyway, you could possibly use Substitute Domain to switch the free domain they get to Healing Domain.

[Anthrowhale]

...
Oh, no worries. Magelord is a fine puzzle that I hadn't appreciated before.

@Anthrowhale if you're going for Divine Oracle anyway, you could possibly use Substitute Domain to switch the free domain they get to Healing Domain.
Cast how?

Maybe I should not, but I feel a bit insecure about using a spell since it's so easily wiped out by dispel magic. Nevertheless, it would reduce the feat tax to be on par with the Spelldancer approach.