Rebuke/command undead confusion

[redking]

Hello everyone, I'm facing an issue interpreting the Dungeons & Dragons 3.5e rules concerning a cleric's ability to rebuke and command undead. Specifically, I'm grappling with how feats and items that modify the cleric's effective turning level or provide bonuses to turning checks affect both the total HD and maximum HD of undead they can command.

The rules state that a cleric can command a number of undead whose total Hit Dice (HD) do not exceed their own level. Moreover, no single undead can be commanded if its HD exceeds half of the cleric's level. How do feats such as Improved Turning, which allow a cleric to turn or rebuke undead as if they were one level higher, interact with these limitations?

Similarly, if a cleric possesses an item that grants a +10 bonus, does this bonus increase the maximum and total HD of undead they can command, or does it only enhance the likelihood of a successful turning check against more potent undead?

The rules do not appear to explicitly detail these interactions, and I'm hoping for some clarification. Are there any official errata or rulings, or perhaps community consensus, on this topic? Thanks in advance for your insights!

[Silva Stormrage]

Yes those rules really could have used a revamp for clarity.

Items generally give one of two things when they boost turn/rebuke undead. 1) A bonus to turning check and 2) A bonus to turning level.

Bonuses to turning checks improve the "Charisma check (1d20 + your Charisma modifier)" roll that you make to determine the highest undead you can turn. This doesn't improve the amount of HD you can control or determining if you rebuked or commanded it. For commanding undead this really doesn't have any impact.

Bonuses to turning level increase everything, the amount of HD you can control, whether you rebuke or command it, etc etc.



One thing that makes commanding undead with rebuke undead much more valuable are items that reduce turn resistance. Items like Lyre of the Restful Soul or Rod of Defiance. Since whether you command them is only calculated at the time you initially rebuke your target (Otherwise Bolstering Undead you command would break them out of your control) that means removing their turn resistance or giving them negative TR can let you command quite a lot stronger undead than normal.

[sleepyphoenixx]

There are three stats related to turning that can be boosted by feats and items.

The big ones are items like the Phylactery of Undead Turning that increase your effective cleric level for anything related to turning - the highest HD and number you can affect, if undead are turned/rebuked or destroyed/commanded or how many HD of undead you can command. It also increases your turning damage (since your cleric level is part of calculating that) but not the turning check (which is just 1d20 + Cha).
So every 2 extra turning levels lets you destroy/command undead with 1 HD more and increases your command cap and turning damage by 2 HD.

The other stats related to turn undead are turning check - which determines the highest HD you can affect with that particular attempts, -4 to +4 of your actual effective cleric level - and turning damage which determines the total number of HD you can affect (Turn or Rebuke Undead (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#turnOrRebukeUndead)).
Neither of those need a lot of boosting though, increasing your turning level is much more effective.

[redking]

I am still struggling with this because it appears to me now that all of these checks are checking for different things. What I understand you are both saying is that a bonus to effective turning level for checks is a bonus to the number of undead you can command, which my understand is had always been keyed to HD, not cleric level or effective levels of cleric for turning. Thinking this through, these seem to be the steps.

Character Introduction and Key Definitions

We have a 10th level Cleric with an item that provides a +2 bonus to her Effective Turning Level (ETL). This means, for the purposes of turning or rebuking undead, she acts as a 12th level cleric. But, her Effective Character Level (ECL), which is used for determining how many total HD worth of undead she can control, remains at 10.

Step-by-Step Rebuking Check

1. Determine Number of Attempts: You can attempt to turn or rebuke undead a number of times per day equal to 3 plus your Charisma modifier.

2. Roll a Turning Check: This is a Charisma check (1d20 + Charisma modifier). Clerics with 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (religion) get a +2 bonus on this check. The result refers to the Turning Undead table which indicates the maximum Hit Dice (HD) of undead you can affect.

3. Roll Turning Capacity ("damage"): Roll 2d6 + your cleric level (inclusive of ETL bonus) + Charisma modifier. This represents the total HD of undead you can affect (regardless of the size of individual undead) with this turn or rebuke attempt.

Note that the term "damage" in "turning damage" is not actual damage, it's a term used to represent the capacity to affect undead.

4. Command Undead (If Applicable): If you are an evil cleric (or certain neutral clerics), undead that would be turned are rebuked instead, and those that would be destroyed are commanded. To command an undead creature, its total HD must be equal to or less than half your Effective Character Level (ECL). You can command multiple undead, but their total HD cannot exceed your ECL.

For our example, with her ETL of 12, our cleric can potentially rebuke undead creatures of up to 14 HD (if she rolls a 16 on her turning check). However, due to her ECL of 10, she can only command undead creatures up to 5 HD and the total HD of all undead she commands can't exceed 10.

This separation of ETL and ECL is key to understanding the impact of items or abilities that enhance turning ability.

This is the way I understand it. Is it wrong?

Addendum: an absurd example works best.


Character Introduction and Key Definitions

Let's consider a 2nd level Cleric who possesses an item providing an extraordinary +28 bonus to Effective Turning Level (ETL). This means, for the purposes of turning or rebuking undead, she acts as a 30th level cleric. However, her Effective Character Level (ECL), which determines how many total HD worth of undead she can control, remains at 2.

Step-by-Step Rebuking Check

1. Determine Number of Attempts: The cleric can attempt to turn or rebuke undead a number of times per day equal to 3 plus her Charisma modifier.

2. Roll a Turning Check: This is a Charisma check (1d20 + Charisma modifier). Clerics with 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (religion) get a +2 bonus on this check. The result refers to the Turning Undead table which indicates the maximum Hit Dice (HD) of undead she can affect.

3. Roll Turning Capacity: Roll 2d6 + her cleric level + Charisma modifier. This represents the total HD of undead she can affect (regardless of the size of individual undead) with this turn or rebuke attempt.

4. Command Undead (If Applicable): If she is an evil cleric (or certain neutral clerics), undead that would be turned are rebuked instead, and those that would be destroyed are commanded. To command an undead creature, its total HD must be equal to or less than half her Effective Character Level (ECL). She can command multiple undead, but their total HD cannot exceed her ECL.

In this case, our cleric, with her ETL of 30, can potentially rebuke undead creatures of significant power, depending on her Turning Check roll. However, due to her ECL of 2, she can only command undead creatures of 1 HD or less, and the total HD of all undead she commands can't exceed 2.

It's quite an unusual situation to be sure, and serves to highlight the sometimes unexpected effects of extreme bonuses to ETL. While she can rebuke even powerful undead, her control over them is extremely limited due to her actual character level.

[Silva Stormrage]

Ah ya there is the confusion. While it does just say "Level" in the srd its pretty widely assumed it means effective cleric level not ECL for that. This makes sense RAI as otherwise all the various cleric PRCs that boost rebuking/turning have very little reason to have that progression since if it uses ECL than ECL has almost no value in the ability.

[Darg]

Level is always defined by the context it lies within. Even in the glossary you'll find that level refers to different subcategories rather than being its own defined term.

In this case, the commanded HD limit is based on level. This mirrors the language under turning checks which is also based on your level. However, in this second case it refers you the table from where you can see it's basing it on your cleric level. For commanded undead, it mentions "the cleric" in regards to levels. Through out the book/SRD it never refers to a multiclass character when identifying them by class. In the case of turning/rebuking if level meant ECL it would go against the overarching structure and patterns the book upholds in its entirety.

[redking]

Here is an epic feat that implies that character level is meant to be the controlling number.


Undead Mastery [Divine][Epic]
Prerequisites
Cha 21, ability to rebuke or command undead.

Benefit
The character may command up to ten times his or her level in HD of undead.

[Crake]

Here is an epic feat that implies that character level is meant to be the controlling number.

I cant remember where it’s written, but when used in the context of classes and class abilities “level” refers to class level, not character level. If the feat meant character level, it would say “character level” not just “level”

[Silva Stormrage]

Counter example for effective cleric level determining your command undead HD pool. The Doomdreamer PRC grants the following ability:

"Kiss of undeath (Su) Double character's effective turning level when rebuking or commanding undead (including maximum number of undead commanded)."

Which also ties back into how you can control more undead.

[Darg]

I cant remember where it’s written, but when used in the context of classes and class abilities “level” refers to class level, not character level. If the feat meant character level, it would say “character level” not just “level”

"Class level" in the glossary says, "Class features generally depend on class level rather than character level." It's not absolute, but I've not seen a feature use character level without it actually saying character level.

[Crake]

"Class level" in the glossary says, "Class features generally depend on class level rather than character level." It's not absolute, but I've not seen a feature use character level without it actually saying character level.

nah, it's not that line, I remember distinctly a line that spells out very clearly that any time the word "level" is used on it's own in the context of a class or class feature, it specifically refers to class level, not character level, and that only if it specifies "character level" does it actually refer to character level. I'll see if I can find it anywhere.

[Blue Jay]

Ah ya there is the confusion. While it does just say "Level" in the srd its pretty widely assumed it means effective cleric level not ECL for that. This makes sense RAI as otherwise all the various cleric PRCs that boost rebuking/turning have very little reason to have that progression since if it uses ECL than ECL has almost no value in the ability.

I'm not sure how much difference it makes, though. "Cleric level" is included in the calculation for ECL, so any boost to effective cleric level ought to boost ECL by the same amount.

There are some modifiers that explicitly apply to only turning damage or only control/destroy limit, but restrictions like that are clearly called out.

[Silva Stormrage]

I'm not sure how much difference it makes, though. "Cleric level" is included in the calculation for ECL, so any boost to effective cleric level ought to boost ECL by the same amount.

There are some modifiers that explicitly apply to only turning damage or only control/destroy limit, but restrictions like that are clearly called out.

1) It makes a difference for Cleric 5/Prc that doesn't progress turning 10. If it was by ECL his HD Pool would be 15 if it is by cleric level his pool would be 5. Same for multiclassing.
2) items that boost cleric level for turning don't count towards ECL. I don't know of a single item or ability in the game that just generically boosts "Cleric Level" the debate was whether or not items such as a Scepter of the Netherworld boost the cleric's command undead pool. If it checks ECL than items that boost your cleric level while rebuking wouldn't apply.

[redking]

The confusion comes from the various checks. The tuning check (Charisma check). The Damage roll (roll Turning Capacity). Then command (or destroy) undead, which isn't a check or roll at all and should not benefit from anything that assists with those. Instead, we need to establish the "the level" of the character and see if any turned or rebuked undead are half or less "level" of the turning/rebuking character, if so they are destroyed or commanded.

If this is effective cleric level that is modifiable by items, then it is massively abusable. Improved Turning -


You turn or rebuke creatures as if you were one level higher than you are in the class that grants you the ability

Appears to unambiguously grant a level of cleric for turning or rebuking. But most (all?) of the items appear to grant a bonus to "effective turning level", which is a bonus to the turning capacity (damage) roll, which allows for better turning or rebuking, but should not permit undead to be destroyed or commanded beyond the normal HD of undead that could be destroyed or commanded.

I've been researching it and seeing 11th level clerics one shot a 20th level lich with turning. That doesn't seem quite right.

Whether the cleric needs 40 character levels or 40 levels or 40 cleric levels to one shot a 20th level lich is an open question. Same goes for the command pool.

[Crake]

The confusion comes from the various checks. The tuning check (Charisma check). The Damage roll (roll Turning Capacity). Then command (or destroy) undead, which isn't a check or roll at all and should not benefit from anything that assists with those. Instead, we need to establish the "the level" of the character and see if any turned or rebuked undead are half or less "level" of the turning/rebuking character, if so they are destroyed or commanded.

If this is effective cleric level that is modifiable by items, then it is massively abusable. Improved Turning -



Appears to unambiguously grant a level of cleric for turning or rebuking. But most (all?) of the items appear to grant a bonus to "effective turning level", which is a bonus to the turning capacity (damage) roll, which allows for better turning or rebuking, but should not permit undead to be destroyed or commanded beyond the normal HD of undead that could be destroyed or commanded.

I've been researching it and seeing 11th level clerics one shot a 20th level lich with turning. That doesn't seem quite right.

Whether the cleric needs 40 character levels or 40 levels or 40 cleric levels to one shot a 20th level lich is an open question. Same goes for the command pool.

Most “one shot” turn clerics use either disciple of the sun, the sun domain, or radiant servant of pelor, to use greater turns, so they destroy anything they would otherwise turn, so with that in mind, it would only take a cleric of 20th level to destroy a lich of 20th level (assuming their turn resistance has been negated in some capacity)

[Silva Stormrage]

The confusion comes from the various checks. The tuning check (Charisma check). The Damage roll (roll Turning Capacity). Then command (or destroy) undead, which isn't a check or roll at all and should not benefit from anything that assists with those. Instead, we need to establish the "the level" of the character and see if any turned or rebuked undead are half or less "level" of the turning/rebuking character, if so they are destroyed or commanded.

If this is effective cleric level that is modifiable by items, then it is massively abusable. Improved Turning -



Appears to unambiguously grant a level of cleric for turning or rebuking. But most (all?) of the items appear to grant a bonus to "effective turning level", which is a bonus to the turning capacity (damage) roll, which allows for better turning or rebuking, but should not permit undead to be destroyed or commanded beyond the normal HD of undead that could be destroyed or commanded.

I've been researching it and seeing 11th level clerics one shot a 20th level lich with turning. That doesn't seem quite right.

Whether the cleric needs 40 character levels or 40 levels or 40 cleric levels to one shot a 20th level lich is an open question. Same goes for the command pool.

Yes turning/rebuking when optimized with feats and items absolutely shreds undead. Sun Domain makes it even worse but yes you can 100% do that. Is it busted? Possibly but its very specific and if someone wants to build an anti undead character I don't feel that its bad they are super effective against turn undead. It's not like turn undead can't be blocked by various things. Having a cleric bolstering the lich makes turning basically pointless, wings of cover would block the attempt, etc etc.

It being busted with optimization doesn't mean it doesn't work like that though. Planar Binding is also broken but it does work exactly like its stated as well and all RAW and RAI examples support the straightforward reading of it. It's not really an "Open" question as multiple people have pointed out you seem to be the only one who holds this interpretation. And if you want to balance it by using it that way you are free to but that's not what the rules are.

But yes I would prefer turn/rebuke gets reworked so its less binary but I haven't seen a good homebrew rework of it yet. Honestly maybe I should get around to doing that and add it to my list of various necromancy homebrew.

[Blue Jay]

The confusion comes from the various checks. The tuning check (Charisma check). The Damage roll (roll Turning Capacity). Then command (or destroy) undead, which isn't a check or roll at all and should not benefit from anything that assists with those. Instead, we need to establish the "the level" of the character and see if any turned or rebuked undead are half or less "level" of the turning/rebuking character, if so they are destroyed or commanded.

If this is effective cleric level that is modifiable by items, then it is massively abusable.

The unfortunate thing is that the most plausible reading seems to be that "level" does indeed mean "effective cleric level."

Look at which parts of the PHB rules use which term:

Turning Checks: This section uses the term "level" (unqualified)
Table 8-9: Turning Undead: This table uses the term "cleric's level" for the same number that the "Turning Checks" section referred to as "level" (unqualified).
Turning Damage: This section uses the term "cleric level" in the damage formula.
Destroying Undead: This section uses the term "level" (unqualified)
Commanded: This section uses the term "level" (unqualified)
Dispelling Turning: This section uses the term "cleric level" in the damage formula.


So, if we're going with the interpretation that "level" (unqualified) ="ECL", then we need to conclude that you use ECL for all purposes except turning damage. We also need to conclude that "cleric's level" also means ECL, and not "cleric level." It also doesn't answer the question of whether boosts to "cleric level" for turning apply to ECL for turning. I feel like they should, since ECL usually includes cleric level; but I can't definitively prove that.

If we're going with the interpretation that "level (unqualified) = "effective cleric level", then we need to conclude that you use "effective cleric level" for all purposes. We also need to conclude that boosts to "cleric level" for turning/rebuking also apply to command/rebuke pools, since those values are calculated from the same number.

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I can also point to the example in the "How Turning Works" section. In this section, the text uses "level" (unqualified) for everything, including the damage formula. To me, this is very strong evidence that RAI is that "level" and "cleric level" mean the same thing.

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If you turn to the Rules Compendium, the confusion gets a bit worse (red text denotes sections that have changes from PHB):
Turning Checks: This section still uses the term "level" (unqualified)
Table: This table defines the new term "turning level", which is equal to "effective class level"
Turning Damage: This section uses the term "appropriate class level", and also says you might sometimes use Hit Dice instead (though it doesn't specify when you use class level and when you use Hit Dice)
Destroying Creatures: This section still uses the term "level" (unqualified)
Commanded: This section still uses the term "level" (unqualified)
Dispelling Turning: This section doesn't use either term.


Now, we have "level" = "turning level" = "effective class level" (at least for turning checks), and we have a statement that you use "class level or Hit Dice" for damage, with no further explanation. I think this just muddies the waters and doesn't help, but it suggests to me that the writers of RC didn't think "level" and "cleric level" referred to different things.

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Personally, I find it really hard to justify any argument that "level" and "cleric level" refer to different things. It certainly seems clear that they are the same thing by RAI. And by RAW, making "level" = "effective cleric level" seems to make the math simpler and leaves fewer unexplained consequences.

You may be right that it's much more abuse-prone this way, but I think the problematic abuses are outliers. In general, it fills a pretty narrow niche that often doesn't justify the investment needed to abuse it (except as a side effect of DMM builds and such). Plus, it primarily targets a creature type that subverts a lot of the general tools, tactics and logistical assumptions of the game, so having a potential trump card in Turning/Rebuking probably helps as often as it hurts the game. For every 11th-level cleric who ruins a game by abusing Rebuke rules to command a 20th-level lich, there's probably another 11th-level cleric who was able to save a game from a unsatisfying TPK using the same rules. And, probably a couple hundred other 11th-level clerics who've never rebuked something more potent than a ghoul.

Personally, I don't think the potential abuses are really worth worrying about.

[redking]

You may be right that it's much more abuse-prone this way, but I think the problematic abuses are outliers. In general, it fills a pretty narrow niche that often doesn't justify the investment needed to abuse it (except as a side effect of DMM builds and such). Plus, it primarily targets a creature type that subverts a lot of the general tools, tactics and logistical assumptions of the game, so having a potential trump card in Turning/Rebuking probably helps as often as it hurts the game. For every 11th-level cleric who ruins a game by abusing Rebuke rules to command a 20th-level lich, there's probably another 11th-level cleric who was able to save a game from a unsatisfying TPK using the same rules. And, probably a couple hundred other 11th-level clerics who've never rebuked something more potent than a ghoul.

Personally, I don't think the potential abuses are really worth worrying about.

First, bloody good analysis, mate.

Secondly, in relation to destroying or commanding undead (I'll put aside the Sun domain for now), if a cleric turns or rebuked undead successfully, even if they fail to destroy or command the undead, the 10 rounds that the PCs now have to beat up on the undead affected is a fait accompli for victory. I don't object to this at all, even for boosting of effective turning level (there is another confusing term) with items.

Remember you can only command a number of undead equal to your "level". Putting aside what level means for a moment, if you are using items and this affects the command pool, your "level" is a sliding scale. If you lose access to an item, and rebuke undead again, does that now mean that some of the controlled undead are freed, now that your command pool HD allowance is lower? If so, this is an outlier in the general mechanics of the game.

If destroying/commanding based on the real cleric level or even the character level, the game doesn't seem to break at all.

In all the RAW vs RAI arguments that I've seen, most are based on tortured readings, but this seems genuinely ambiguous.

[Crake]

Putting aside what level means for a moment, if you are using items and this affects the command pool, your "level" is a sliding scale. If you lose access to an item, and rebuke undead again, does that now mean that some of the controlled undead are freed, now that your command pool HD allowance is lower? If so, this is an outlier in the general mechanics of the game.

I think the generally accepted reading is that this is determined at the time of commanding, because otherwise a cleric bolstering their commanded undead would immediately lose control over all of them, as noted earlier in the thread.

[redking]

I think the generally accepted reading is that this is determined at the time of commanding, because otherwise a cleric bolstering their commanded undead would immediately lose control over all of them, as noted earlier in the thread.

Bolstering shouldn't matter if you go RAI, but what of a cleric in that situation that attempts to rebuke and command an undead? For example, let's say the cleric controls 20 HD of undead, but without the item, the cleric's true ECL is 15. So when it tries to command a 1 HD skeleton, it loses 6 HD of exisitng controlled undead, and gains the 1 HD skeleton, for a new total of 15 HD. It looks off.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Bolstering shouldn't matter if you go RAI, but what of a cleric in that situation that attempts to rebuke and command an undead? For example, let's say the cleric controls 20 HD of undead, but without the item, the cleric's true ECL is 15. So when it tries to command a 1 HD skeleton, it loses 6 HD of exisitng controlled undead, and gains the 1 HD skeleton, for a new total of 15 HD. It looks off.
Your effective turning level is basically the caster level for turn undead.
It's no different than casting Animate Dead with a temporary CL boost. It doesn't matter if the CL boost runs out, any undead you created with the spell are still under your control even if they don't fit into your current (without the CL boost) control cap. Your lower CL only comes into play when you cast Animate Dead again.

The same applies to pretty much any kind of ability - what matters is your stats at the moment of casting/using the ability. There's no reason to treat commanding undead any differently.