Creating skill bonus item question

[incog64]

I can find in the DMG how much it costs to create custom skill items, "Skill bonus (competence) = Bonus squared × 100 gp". (Page 285)

I can't find where it states what rank level is required to craft said item. I have seen people talk about that you can craft up to your rank, ie with 5 ranks in a skill you can create a skill bonus item of +5. This makes sense to me, I just can't find where it states that.

Does anyone know where I can source the skill rank requirement for creating skill bonus items?

Thanks.

[KillianHawkeye]

I'm not sure it's an explicit rule, but there are many example items that provide a skill bonus which require the creator to have an equal number of ranks in the skill.

[Biggus]

I have seen people talk about that you can craft up to your rank, ie with 5 ranks in a skill you can create a skill bonus item of +5.

I've seen people say that, but I've never seen it in any book. I don't think it's an actual rule.

[Crake]

I've seen people say that, but I've never seen it in any book. I don't think it's an actual rule.

As stated before, its more a convention intuited from other skill bonus items.

I would also probably allow spells that grant an equivalent competence bonus to count as well, though not sure how many of those exist

[YellowJohn]

As stated before, its more a convention intuited from other skill bonus items.

I would also probably allow spells that grant an equivalent competence bonus to count as well, though not sure how many of those exist

Guidance of the Avatar (Clerics) and Loresong (Wizards) should cover the bases more than adequately.

[AvatarVecna]

The "equal to your ranks" thing also isnt consistent even in core. Elixir of Swimming gives Swim +10 (competence) and requires the creator to have 5 ranks in swim. Additionally, there's a bunch of competence skill items that don't require them: the boots and cloak of elvenkind give +5 competence to hide/move silently, but neither requires the creator to have ranks in them. Cloak Of Elvenkind is also the example given in the "custom magic items" table for an item giving a competence bonus to a skill item.

There's upsides and downsides to having this as a ruling. Upside, it's a bit harder for crafters to break the game in this specific way personally. Crafting is still pretty abusable if custom items are on the table, but at the very least they're not going to be wildly throwing off the skill math - they can only make items of skills they're already good at, so they're just going from good to great, and the nonepic cap goes from +30 to +23. The downside is what that implies about the world: finding an Improved Ring Of Climbing requires there to be a caster or artificer who's at least level 14 and also has put at least 10 ranks into a skill that 1) they probably don't care about since spider climb is a thing, and 2) is cross-class for them anyway. With this rule implemented, items giving bonuses to caster-adjacent skills will be far far more common than items giving bonuses to skills non-casters care about.

[Crake]

The downside is what that implies about the world: finding an Improved Ring Of Climbing requires there to be a caster or artificer who's at least level 14 and also has put at least 10 ranks into a skill that 1) they probably don't care about since spider climb is a thing, and 2) is cross-class for them anyway. With this rule implemented, items giving bonuses to caster-adjacent skills will be far far more common than items giving bonuses to skills non-casters care about.

This ignores the possibility of the artificer creating the item in tandem with someone else who has the skill ranks instead

[redking]

This ignores the possibility of the artificer creating the item in tandem with someone else who has the skill ranks instead

Planar binding of a midguard dwarf. Basically essential for the crafting toolkit.


Master Smith (Ex): Midgard dwarves gain Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, and Forge Ring as bonus feats. They are considered to possess the prerequisites necessary to craft any magic item of those types, even if they do not otherwise meet the requirements or have the ability to cast the necessary spells.

If you are high level, shapechange into a midguard dwarf and use it's Master Smith (Ex) ability. You can bypass the various roadblocks and just get to crafting, assuming it is arms and armor, wondrous, or rings.

[Crake]

Planar binding of a midguard dwarf. Basically essential for the crafting toolkit.



If you are high level, shapechange into a midguard dwarf and use it's Master Smith (Ex) ability. You can bypass the various roadblocks and just get to crafting, assuming it is arms and armor, wondrous, or rings.

A norse mythology creature doesnt fit into every setting, so i wouldnt lean on that much, or at all really

[AvatarVecna]

This ignores the possibility of the artificer creating the item in tandem with someone else who has the skill ranks instead

In which case the downside disappears, but the upside largely does as well, and it plays out more or less exactly as it normally does in a game with custom items on the table, except the limit for custom items is a bit lower. A wizard can't craft most such items directly, but there's other means of moneymancy available to him that aren't to noncasters. The reason this could potentially keep T1s from skyrocketing even higher is because you can't moneymancy your way into buying something that nobody has made; this sucks for wizards, and while it also sucks for rogues that's a price some are willing to pay. But the upside and downside only exist because the items don't; if you make it so the items exist again, they both go away. Oh yeah and the upside is completely gone for artificers, since now they can just make them personally again.

So I guess this is largely fine assuming your game doesn't have artificer PCs, and there's not a way for the PC casters to dodge around the skill requirement?

[Chronos]

Keep in mind that the custom magic item rules are in the DMG, not the PHB, for a reason. The DM is the ultimate arbiter of what items exist or are possible in their game, and what costs or other limitations they have.

Possible conversation at the table:
Player: "I would like to create a custom item that gives +10 to Craft (Basketweaving) checks."
DM: "Your preliminary research indicates that that item would cost 10,000 GP, and require that you have 10 ranks in the skill already. I see you don't have those ranks already; would you like to put some ranks in on your next level up?"

Other possible responses from the DM could be
"It turns out that basketweaving fits in very well with the Weave of magic, so such an item costs only 5000 GP, and requires no particular skill to create."
or
"Sages throughout the centuries have speculated about the possibility of such an item, but most have concluded that it simply isn't possible under the laws of magic as they stand, and even those who think it might be possible have no idea how it could be done".
or
"It's 10,000 GP and requires no particular skill, but a quirk of the magic required means that the entire crafting process must be performed underwater."

[Crake]

In which case the downside disappears, but the upside largely does as well, and it plays out more or less exactly as it normally does in a game with custom items on the table, except the limit for custom items is a bit lower. A wizard can't craft most such items directly, but there's other means of moneymancy available to him that aren't to noncasters. The reason this could potentially keep T1s from skyrocketing even higher is because you can't moneymancy your way into buying something that nobody has made; this sucks for wizards, and while it also sucks for rogues that's a price some are willing to pay. But the upside and downside only exist because the items don't; if you make it so the items exist again, they both go away. Oh yeah and the upside is completely gone for artificers, since now they can just make them personally again.

So I guess this is largely fine assuming your game doesn't have artificer PCs, and there's not a way for the PC casters to dodge around the skill requirement?

Well, i mean, the item needs to have some kind of prerequisite, and in lieu of a spell that grants said bonuses, I think skill ranks are fine. I make my decisions from an in-universe standpoint, rather than a "is this balanced" position, so i'm not looking at what's going to prevent t1s from getting ahead, or from moneymancing being a problem, because those things assume perfect knowledge of the system and how to exploit it, and characters don't have that information in game.


Keep in mind that the custom magic item rules are in the DMG, not the PHB, for a reason. The DM is the ultimate arbiter of what items exist or are possible in their game, and what costs or other limitations they have.

Possible conversation at the table:
Player: "I would like to create a custom item that gives +10 to Craft (Basketweaving) checks."
DM: "Your preliminary research indicates that that item would cost 10,000 GP, and require that you have 10 ranks in the skill already. I see you don't have those ranks already; would you like to put some ranks in on your next level up?"

Other possible responses from the DM could be
"It turns out that basketweaving fits in very well with the Weave of magic, so such an item costs only 5000 GP, and requires no particular skill to create."
or
"Sages throughout the centuries have speculated about the possibility of such an item, but most have concluded that it simply isn't possible under the laws of magic as they stand, and even those who think it might be possible have no idea how it could be done".
or
"It's 10,000 GP and requires no particular skill, but a quirk of the magic required means that the entire crafting process must be performed underwater."

These are all great examples of how any one particular item could come out of the DM workshop.