PRCs that would be fine as base classes?

[Pinkie Pyro]

So currently reading through every available 3.5 PRC, and I'm noticing a lot have... massive problems.

between once per day syndrome or just Pidgeon holing a character into something that rarely matters, they seem like straight downgrades as prestige classes...

but wouldn't be terrible as base classes.


For example, Avenging executioner is effectively a rogue that focuses on intimidate rather than skill monkeying, and would be perfect as a base class. it's short, sweet, does what it needs too.

What have you guys got?

[lylsyly]

One of the things we have played with at our table is using PrCs as an addition to the base class ie stacking devoted defender on a fighter or paladin chassis and maintaining the base class progression. Not suitable for all base class/Prc combo but for a lot of them it doesn't even shift the power level at all.

[Thurbane]

Assassin as a base class would be cool, a throwback to 1E.

Since they are casters now, you could maybe give them Bard casting progression, and throw in some 5th and 6th level spells for their list.

In fact, you'd probably need to tweak their spell list quite a bit, so some spells didn't come online too early.

[Blue Jay]

I've run a game like this. I think it's probably fine in most cases. Common reasons why prestige classes would fail as base classes include weapon and armor proficiencies (most prestige classes leave you high-and-dry with proficiencies), class-feature dependencies (prestige classes often don't offer class features that they need to function properly), and skills (prestige classes seem to frequently offer weak skill lists and fewer skill points). Also, many prestige classes don't offer the kinds of versatility at low levels that true base classes offer.

Once you've accounted for some of those common deficiencies, I bet most prestige classes would work if you got rid of one or two problematic abilities. These are frequently SLAs, summons or a shapeshifting forms. For example, Yathchol webrider would be fine as a base class, but the "summon spiders" ability should probably be re-tuned for low-level use (and I'd want the class to offer Trapfinding, and maybe a little Sneak Attack). Something like seeker of the song might be possible to use, but you'd have to re-calibrate all the damage values and other numerical values; and uses-per-day would be a struggle at low levels.

Most martial classes are probably okay, though. From Complete Warrior, bladesinger, dervish, drunken master, justiciar and Order of the Bow initiate all feel like they'd be fun in a low-level game, but none of them is probably going to break the game. You might need to offer some boons (e.g., bladesinger grants wizard casting, justiciar grants martial weapon proficiency, etc). Some of them are still trap options if you're looking to progress beyond the early levels, though.

Likewise, from Complete Adventurer, animal lord, beastmaster, bloodhound, dread pirate and tempest all sound more interesting as base classes than as prestige classes, but they'd probably all need some tweaks, since most of them don't give you any unique things to do at 1st level.

I always thought scorpion heritor from Sandstorm would make a pretty flavorful base class, though it also doesn't do much at 1st level. I'd probably want to add Trapfinding at 1st, and I'd probably want to "invert" it so Sneak Attack progresses an odd-numbered levels and the feats and features come on the even levels. Combat trapsmith from Complete Scoundrel is another one that would be more interesting if you could access its abilities at lower levels; but it's a tough niche to try to use effectively.

Pyrokineticist is fun at low levels (I've used it as a base class), and most of the abilities (until the last few levels) are reasonably appropriate for low-level games (though it's lacking in diversity). It accumulates new abilities too slowly, though; so maybe give it some power points and a couple psionic powers. Fire bolt becomes a bit of an issue: it's not overpowered, but it's on the high side for at-will damage, so it's often the most optimal thing you can do each round; but since there aren't a lot of ways to modify it, you can easily just end up doing vanilla fire bolts, round after round.

[Blue Jay]

One of the things we have played with at our table is using PrCs as an addition to the base class ie stacking devoted defender on a fighter or paladin chassis and maintaining the base class progression. Not suitable for all base class/Prc combo but for a lot of them it doesn't even shift the power level at all.

I've been toying with a similar rules idea, but it focuses on just progressing prestige classes. You start as a gestalt base-class/prestige-class at 1st level, then just progress through prestige classes from there. I was going to call it, "Prestige Rally Rules". You still have to qualify for your prestige class, but the requirements are reduced (e.g., you only have to take 1 of the required feats, you put 1 rank in each required skill, things like that). You have to qualify normally for any prestige classes you take after the first.

I think any system like this is going to require some "gentleman's agreements" between players and the DM, though.

[Pinkie Pyro]

I've run a game like this. SNIP

Thanks for the suggestions! I'll keep an eye out for those.

Obviously, a bit of tweaking to work as a base class, such as reasonable proficiencies and skills would be important, but I'm actually quite interested in not adjusting the levels , so for instance assassin would stay a class with only 10 levels, after which you'd pick up a different class.

[Harrow]

Chameleon feels like it could have been fun a base class if the non-casting focuses could be given actual progression and abilities. I've tried making base classes before based off of Sandshaper and Effigy Master (both ended up feeling like worse versions of a Pathfinder Summoner and could likely have been better fits as archetypes for that class, at least how I was doing them) as well as something inspired by the Combat Trapsmith (which floundered as I tried to figure out a table-friendly way of dealing with fliers).

This was all homebrewing up adjustments to existing PrCs to be 20 level long base classes. If you wanted to just adjust/ignore requirements, then Chameleon becomes waaay too powerful. But, if you could ignore a lot of the requirements for many of the PrCs that require some amount of casting (or, like, any Druid) but don't fully advance that casting, I bet there are some neat abilities you could pick up early enough to actually be relevant.

Take, for instance, Acolyte of the Skin. Normally, you lose 5 caster levels for it. If you just say "choose one spellcasting class and gain a level of their spellcasting anytime AotS would advance spellcasting" and start into the class at level 1, it would be... potent. Still worse than Wizard 20 at 20th level, but it just feels different to be playing an AotS from level 1 than it does to be a Wizard 5 and say "Why, yes, I do want to give up the potential for phenomenal cosmic power to get a couple of eye-based attacks that have little to do thematically with wearing a demon for my skin".

[Darg]

Blackguard is one of those and as written you can almost get there if you trade in 10 levels of paladin at paladin level 11.

[Bad Wolf]

The Holy Liberator is pretty much just the Paladin of Freedom.

[Anthrowhale]

Somewhat tangential, there is a legal path for virtually any self-qualifying prestige class functioning as a base class.

Step 1: Start with a 2 hit die anthropomorphic animal or any other base race that gives BAB+2 and Will+1.
Step 2: Take 10 levels in Tainted Spellcaster (Dragon #302) for which you qualify automatically.
Step 3: Use the levels to pick up to Great Fortitude and 4 feats, BAB+9, class skills(Climb, Jump, Hide, Move Silently, Ride, Concentration, K[Arcana], K[Religion], K[Planes], Search, Spellcraft, Listen, Spot, Bluff, Disguise, Intimidate) 15, Fort+3, Refl+6, Will+10 to qualify for a prestige class.
Step 4: Take levels in the prestige class and drain off levels of tainted spellcaster at a rate which keeps prereqs intact. Per the sidebar on page 39, you can explicitly have lost levels be in Tainted Spellcaster.
Step 5: Take 1-3 levels of Wizard with Spell Focus[Transmutation] and then a level of Shaper of Form, converting your race to whatever one is desired.
Step 6: Drain off the level of Shaper of Form and Wizard. This should be uncontroversial since these are the most recently taken classes.

[Shpadoinkle]

A lot of PrCs would be fine as base classes with some minor adjustments. Honestly, Pathfinder did a great job of handling this kind of thing with archetypes. And Paizo didn't even come up with the idea; 2e D&D had 'kits' that you could take at character creation, which altered or added class abilities. You know, kind of exactly like archetypes. I don't understand why 3e didn't incorporate them. They wouldn't even have to have been in the PHB, adding archetypes or class kits in splatbooks like Tome and Blood or Sword and Fist would have been great.

My best guess that the reason 3e didn't do this kind of thing is because they were trying to distance themselves mechanically from 2e and all the bloat it had accumulated, or maybe they thought feats were good enough for doing that.

[Quertus]

Well... I think the only prestige class that's 20 levels long is the Maho-Tsukai; subsequently, every other prestige class will inherently require a bit of reworking in order to serve as a base class. Myself, I'd like to have the "stealing power from the gods" Ur-Priest made into a base class, so that characters can be appropriately giving deities the middle finger from the very beginning of their careers.

Most any prestige class could work as a base class. Personally, I think the more interesting question is, what prestige classes wouldn't work as base classes? Even something like Mystic Theurge could be written as "pick one arcane casting list and one divine casting list from this table" kind of deal, so I suspect there's very little that wouldn't make sense as a base class.

[loky1109]

Years ago I had in mind idea about quartet of classes/PrC.
Paladin - Blackguard - Holy Liberator - and some CE "paladin" (didn't make it well enough) and Prestige versions. With unique combos for every ex-combinations. If base HL go into Pr Pal - it's one, if base BG go into Pr Pal - another, and so on.

[vasilidor]

I have been toying with/writing up stuff for a version of d20 stuff that only went up to level 12.
I now have more stuff to pillage for ideas. I just need to rewrite things enough for it to not be plagiarism.
Considering almost every character idea out their has been made into a cc/prc combo of some sort...
I could even take ideas that were thematically cool but failed in execution and maybe make them work.

[Nihilarian]

Base class Ur-Priest is basically just cleric. Maybe you can give more uses of steal spell-like ability?

Soulbow could replace Soulknife and nothing of value would be lost

[Beni-Kujaku]

Base class Ur-Priest is basically just cleric. Maybe you can give more uses of steal spell-like ability?

Soulbow could replace Soulknife and nothing of value would be lost

Maybe if you gave it standard cleric spell progression‚ but as it is it's basically the one PrC that should never ever be a base class.

[Quertus]

Base class Ur-Priest is basically just cleric. Maybe you can give more uses of steal spell-like ability?

Mechanically? Mostly. Thematically? Antithetical to Cleric.

If you, in effect, traded Domains (EDIT: and, with them, one Spell slot per level) and get a worse skill list in exchange for Divine SR, Siphon Spell Power, and Steal Spelllike Ability? Myself, I’d want to expand that with something more like Spell Thief or Spellfire abilities, as it seems a poor trade, especially with a GM like me who actually makes priests be important in society. Or maybe just give them “1 level early access” to spells with a “0” entry for your nod to both balance and history.


Maybe if you gave it standard cleric spell progression‚ but as it is it's basically the one PrC that should never ever be a base class.

As I initially pointed out, you’ve got to make them 20 levels long, no matter what. I think the hardest (and most fun?) class to try to make into a base class would probably be Illithid Savant.

[AnonJr]

Soulbow could replace Soulknife and nothing of value would be lost

Soulknife started as a PrC, and we see how well the stretching process worked there... though it's not entirely the Soulknife's fault. Some have done a decent job (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?636784-Biscuit-s-Straight-Forward-Soulknife-Fix) keeping it thematically right and a little more power-appropriate.

[Remuko]

As I initially pointed out, you’ve got to make them 20 levels long, no matter what.

you don't. OP said otherwise. that prestige classes made into base classes wouldnt have their level caps or progression changed, you would just be able to take them from level 1, in this hypothetical.


I'm actually quite interested in not adjusting the levels , so for instance assassin would stay a class with only 10 levels, after which you'd pick up a different class.

[Quertus]

you don't. OP said otherwise. that prestige classes made into base classes wouldnt have their level caps or progression changed, you would just be able to take them from level 1, in this hypothetical.

Did my reading comprehension fail me again?



So currently reading through every available 3.5 PRC, and I'm noticing a lot have... massive problems.

between once per day syndrome or just Pidgeon holing a character into something that rarely matters, they seem like straight downgrades as prestige classes...

but wouldn't be terrible as base classes.


For example, Avenging executioner is effectively a rogue that focuses on intimidate rather than skill monkeying, and would be perfect as a base class. it's short, sweet, does what it needs too.

What have you guys got?

No...



Thanks for the suggestions! I'll keep an eye out for those.

Obviously, a bit of tweaking to work as a base class, such as reasonable proficiencies and skills would be important, but I'm actually quite interested in not adjusting the levels , so for instance assassin would stay a class with only 10 levels, after which you'd pick up a different class.

Oh. OP as in Original Poster, not Opening Post.

Huh. Well, that's... um... almost nothing works as a base class under those conditions, because (for example) an Assassin 10 / Arcane Archer 10 just isn't anywhere near a Wizard 20. That is, none of them give proper level 20 capstones, so they're all traps. With the exception of 20 level prestige classes, like Maho-Tsukai. Or ones that just, you know, work about as well as the base class to begin with, and, even then, only when paired with a similar base class (so Magus of the Arcane Order 10 / Sacred Fist 10 is probably trash, while Magus of the Arcane Order 10 / something something 7 Fold Veils probably works).

So a) thank you for pointing out my error; b) my vote under this new understanding is that 20 level prestige classes (like Maho-Tsukai) are the only ones where "the math just works", and some of the others can work if paired correctly, but are prone to user error.

[Pinkie Pyro]

Huh. Well, that's... um... almost nothing works as a base class under those conditions, because (for example) an Assassin 10 / Arcane Archer 10 just isn't anywhere near a Wizard 20.

Yes, the tier system still exists. :smallconfused:

What do you even mean here? that unless a class has 20 levels it's pointless? In that case PRCs are useless anyway.

[Nihilarian]

Assassin 10 is excellent to anyone who isn't arbitrarily focused on getting 9s. "What if my rogue got cool assassin themed spells" yes please

Classes that advance/modify class features they themselves don't provide the feature seem like a bad fit for this idea. Basically every class that advances spellcasting, for example. I'd be glad to play a wizard 1/sentinel of bharrai 10 but it feels against the spirit of things.

Classes that grant independant spellcasting would all be great. I'd love to get 4th level spells by 10th level instead of 20th. Improves the value of Dragon Disciple too. Ur-Priest 10/Dragon Disciple 10 would have like 10 9th level spells per day. Even just 10 4th level spells for the assassin is cool.

[Quertus]

Yes, the tier system still exists. :smallconfused:

What do you even mean here? that unless a class has 20 levels it's pointless? In that case PRCs are useless anyway.

If one argues that Ur-Priest 10 or Beholder Mage 10 has, at 10th level, abilities that are more appropriate at 20th, then one could equally argue that a Wizard 10 / Cleric 10 has abilities at 20th that are more appropriate at 10th level. By this logic, prestige classes only work as base classes 1) if they are 20 levels long, or 2) if what they grant at level 10 is noticeably different from what they grant at level 20. So, a Magus of the Arcane Order 10 / Initiate of the 7-fold Veils 10 has a capstone of 9th level spells; what can be added to Assassin 10 to actually have an appropriate capstone by level 20?

Never mind the concept of "tiers" - two casting progression prestige classes could be added together to be "as good as" a casting class; two full BAB prestige classes could be added together to be "as good as" a martial class; two classes that advance Initiator level could be added together to be "as good as" a base initiator class; etc. So it seems to me that the question becomes, do the prestige classes have natural synergy with any other prestige classes, to produce an appropriate 20th level capstone? If not, they are not suited to acting as base classes, and are a trap.

[Pinkie Pyro]

snip

How often do you multiclass?

Because like, none of this is represented in the games I play. Assassin being 10 levels long and then you pick something else is absolutely fine. Fighter is a class 2 levels long, after all. rogue doesn't have a capstone.

[Palanan]

Master of the Yuirwood came up recently, and if you gave it ranger spellcasting (as mystic ranger) it might work as a ranger variant, though it would need to be in a menhir-rich area to really function well.

[noob]

So currently reading through every available 3.5 PRC, and I'm noticing a lot have... massive problems.

between once per day syndrome or just Pidgeon holing a character into something that rarely matters, they seem like straight downgrades as prestige classes...

but wouldn't be terrible as base classes.


For example, Avenging executioner is effectively a rogue that focuses on intimidate rather than skill monkeying, and would be perfect as a base class. it's short, sweet, does what it needs too.

What have you guys got?

Arcane trickster: you basically have to mix in your rogue levels and casting class levels to have a character overall worse than either specialist unless you do an early entry trick.
It literally became a base class in dnd 5e.

[DammitVictor]

Purple Duck does a thing for Pathfinder called "Prestige Archetypes". They take a Prestige Class, take the likeliest/most iconic route into that Prestige Class, and redesign it as 20 level base class. They've done all of the PrCs in the core rulebook and all of the PrCs in official Paizo materials.

They do have an unfortunate tendency of turning theurge classes into 6-level classes, except the Mystic Theurge itself.

[Quertus]

How often do you multiclass?

Because like, none of this is represented in the games I play. Assassin being 10 levels long and then you pick something else is absolutely fine. Fighter is a class 2 levels long, after all. rogue doesn't have a capstone.

How often do I multiclass? Um... it varies?

Personally, I'm lazy. I usually just write "Wizard" (or whatever) on my character sheet, and take that from 1 to 20+, no Prestige Classes. Occasionally, I build something complex, for the purpose of testing a theory. Like, one time, I took 1 level in each of... a lot of classes. It was not very effective. Other times, I've built things like a Devoted Defender, because I thought it was cool.

The Rogue "capstone" IMO is dealing an extra (depending on optimization level) 10d6+20 or so damage with each attack. Which, when combined with the ability to get lots of attacks and/or "never miss", their capstone is "you see..." "I kill it.". That seems pretty effective. Assassin 10, Cleric 10 seems noticeably less so, IMO. Is there some other Prestige Class that pairs well enough with Assassin to take 10 levels in each, and still have a capstone / level 20 showing as good as a Rogue 20 or Psion 20?

[Slowdrifter]

Eldritch knight (sort of). A solid gish that does sword fighting and arcane magic is a staple that I feel is lacking. I've never played a Pathfinder magus but I've always liked the look of it.

[Morphic tide]

Soulbow could replace Soulknife and nothing of value would be lost
Soulbow could be replaced with a single feat to cover the Mind Blade shape and an AFC swapping Psychic Strike for bonus feats. Maybe another AFC for a generalized "Phase Weapon" replacing Knife to the Soul for Throw Mind Blade value.


Years ago I had in mind idea about quartet of classes/PrC.
Paladin - Blackguard - Holy Liberator - and some CE "paladin" (didn't make it well enough) and Prestige versions. With unique combos for every ex-combinations. If base HL go into Pr Pal - it's one, if base BG go into Pr Pal - another, and so on.
I think Blackguard works a bit better as the Chaotic rather than the Lawful given the Sneak Attack and Poison value supporting an outright contempt for "orderly" fights. In a broader sense, you could list off a restored feature and a new feature for each combination to streamline the process. You may also consider a Bone Knight adaptation for the scheme.


Eldritch knight (sort of). A solid gish that does sword fighting and arcane magic is a staple that I feel is lacking. I've never played a Pathfinder magus but I've always liked the look of it.
Spellsword is a far closer fit among PRCs, though I would recommend Duskblade from Player's Handbook 2 as it is FAR less jank and use-limited.