need help figuring out what to do about a powerful character as a dm

[Salgood]

Im running a campaign right now and one of the players is very poweful and can do a ****load of damage they do pretty much 80-100 damage per round at ninth level and it makes creating boss enemies basically impossible because in a single round almost anything not insanly tanky with 400 hit points losses all its health or atleast half its health every round because of his insane damage. Ive heard alot of advice about talking to players about the issues there having as a dm with power gamer characters but the player is my dad irl and that adds a whole awkward layer to it. hes been playing for like 25 years and its hard to make encounters without putting in alot of enemies and enounters with one really powerful enemy doesnt really work because none of the other players can match my dads damage output. just need any advice been an issue for a while now but its becoming alot worse the higher he gets in level.

[Gruftzwerg]

0. While I get the problem with "he's my dad", that is also the solution to your problem imho. Normally you should be able to ask your dad for help if you struggle with something in life. Even if it's just the dmg output of his character. As important tip, make sure that he gets that it's not him that you have a problem with, but explain where you struggle with designing encounters that fits the entire party (including his dmg).

__

Here some suggestions how to "deal" with high dmg PCs. Note that you need to keep a balance where "you stop your dad's character" and where you just let him shine and do his job. Try to alter between those two in a sensible way.

1. Line of Sight
If he can't see it, he can't hit it. Hide, invisibility or even temporary blind effect all fall into this category.

2. misschances
Be it from cover, concealment, or due to some magical ways, this can help to squeeze 1-2 extra rounds outta the encounter.

3. Crowd Control
Target his weak saves and do anything needed to take him outta the fight for the first few rounds. Stun, Paralyze, Sleep, fatigue/exhausted, slow or whatsoever you have to hamper his actions.

4. Mind Control
Let's see what happens if your dad's character attacks his teammates..
Let him look like he is the baddy for optimizing so much!^^

5. Battlemap Optimization
Carefully plan how the battlefield looks (difficult terrain, blocked squares, hazards, placing of the enemies....). Imho this is the most subtile way to deal with this. Carefully place your sacrificial tokens around your main foe. Make sure that it is hard to get off a Full Attack onto the main foe and move him accordingly. Hard to reach "high ground" is an option to deal with melee PCs.

6. Target his primary stat
Lowers the damage and the chance that he hits. Diseases can be interesting here if you can get past his "saves", since those will affect him for a longer time.
...

Try to use as many different tools as possible so that it doesn't feel to generic when you deal with his characters. And remind you to also have some fights where he can shine just by killing many stuff. Just use low level foes in numbers to protect the main foe. If he will kill any henchmen in a single blow anyway design more encounters with lots of low level mobs to kill.



If you can tell us a lil more about the PC, we could provide some more specific solutions. It kinda sounds like an ubercharger build, but I'm not sure. "Normally" they can be stopped very easy with any of the above mentioned options. But depending on how much he optimized, this can become really tough to deal with. But most optimize sole for damage and barely optimize to deal with their weaknesses.

While I get that damage optimization can be annoying to deal with, it's imho still the easiest optimization concept that you have to deal with as DM. Just make him aware of your struggle and ask him to maybe temporary stop adding even more damage to his build until you feel more comfortable with addressing his damage output.

[Bohandas]

Black pudding and ochre jelly maybe? The ones that split and take most weapon damage in fixed quantities.

[Condé]

If your other player characters are "normal" and he has been playing for 25, he should have seen his characters as problematic already.

I agree that you should talk to him to... Tone down his character. Maybe make a new one more in line with the power of the others.

[Darg]

I second the need to know how he built his character. If the character is using the Shocktrooper feat + pounce, charging right into a readied polearm will likely guarantee he'll take a lot of damage (if they have reach and the charger doesn't, the AoO provoked also does double damage). A normal character also can't charge through difficult terrain or cover. Something not mentioned is that you can't charge a character taking total cover behind a tower shield.

If you're just worried about him doing a bunch of full attacks, give your front liners spring attack/make use of the withdraw action to minimize damage taken while other units attack. In a single unit fight, if they don't have pounce you can make use of the delay action to ensure that you get the first full attack in. This can help keep fights more dynamic while also putting the party on the back foot at times.

[Bohandas]

Maybe increase the levels of the other PCs to bring their power level in line? Perhaps an adventure in a magic library which will end with the other players' characters finding the G=Book of Exalted Deeds/Libram of Gainful Conjuration/Nether Scrolls/whatever.

[Troacctid]

What type of character are we talking about? If he's relying on melee attacks, then there are a lot of defenses you can put up besides HP to make him work for it, depending on what he is or isn't prepared for. Do you know all of his capabilities?

It's pretty common to have characters who excel at a particular type of encounter, and the expected way to challenge them is to present them with a variety of different types of encounter in order to force them to adapt. If his character is a screwdriver and you throw nothing but screws at him, it'll be an easy campaign. But if you hit him with a mix of screws, nails, padlocks, and W-2 forms, then he can share the spotlight with his party members who are good at hammering, lockpicking, and payroll accounting.

[Kurald Galain]

they do pretty much 80-100 damage per round at ninth level
I'd say those numbers are high but not excessively so; it is pretty normal at levels 10 and up that most enemies will go down to a full attack from a competent melee character.

As Gruftzwerg notes, there are also common ways to prevent him from landing a full attack. Aside from that, I'm curious how high the average damage is of other party members, and if the other players have an issue with this or if it's mainly you having an issue.

[Bonzai]

The question is whether or not the other players are having fun. If they are all engaged and enjoying themselves, then it isn't a huge problem. If he makes them feel like it doesn't even matter if they are there or not, then it is a big one.

I had a similar problem, except that the entire group was powerful in their own ways. There was an archer that could deal over 250 damage a round when buffed. An Unseelie Fey Dread Necromancer with some annoying pets that could bottom out your saves and then cast save or die spells you would need a nat 20 to pass. Then there was a beguiler/fate spinner. She had battlefield control with her illusions, could mind control most things that I threw at them, and take good or bad luck out of the equation with rerolls. That nat 20 that you needed to pass? Make that two of them in a row. One of the group failed a key save? Reroll it.. Lastly there was a psychic theurge that focused on problem solving and utility. He could interrupt my actions and rewrite his known powers whenever it was needed. This was an extremely potent group. It got to the point where encounters were going to be resolved in 2 rounds. I was worried that I wasn't providing them with a significant challenge.

So eventually I told the group of my concerns. I am a story driven DM. I am not out to kill the party, and encounters make sense in the context of the story. I don't custom tailor opponents to take out the party unless it makes sense to do so. But at the level of power we were now dealing with, I was concerned that in the escalation to create a challenge, I would end up wiping the party. One of the player's then gave me great advice. Don't worry about it. The group was having a great time. Yes, encounters were being decided on 2 to 3 rounds, but they had to take them seriously. Yes they were powerful, but they had earned that power, and were enjoying the fruits of their efforts. They enjoyed being that potent, and the story was engaging enough to keep them interested.

So that is the advice I give to you. The player's are the heroes of the story, so let them be heroes. If they like being one punch man, then so be it. But you do have to make sure everyone is enjoying themselves. In the case of one player hogging the glory, I would talk with them and see I they can let the others get in on the action while he is held in reserve a bit.

If that doesn't work, what kind of resources does he burn through? If he is good for 3 battles, maybe throw in 5. If he relies on a type of attack, what happens when it is turned against him? For example, that archer I mentioned? He ran into a monk that could catch and throw back some of the arrows he was firing back at him. This turned the battle on it's head as he couldn't take that kind of damage and had to think of other tactics to win. The Beguiler? She got caught in an anti magic zone and suddenly all of her pets were uncontrolled again and a bit ticked off. The theurge? He was tricky, and I would have to bait him with something before I pulled out the big stick, otherwise he would mitigate it. The Necromancer relied on touch spells, so ranged offense was better against her. Things like that can come up and make an encounter far more intense than they otherwise would be.

[Zanos]

I'm sorry OP, but the idea of your own father sitting down at your gaming table and whooping all of your encounters with an optimized character is such a hilarious mental image. I say let him keep doing it. :smallbiggrin:

[Salgood]

I'm sorry OP, but the idea of your own father sitting down at your gaming table and whooping all of your encounters with an optimized character is such a hilarious mental image. I say let him keep doing it. :smallbiggrin:

it is and i think its honestly revenge for me making overpowered wizards and jedis for star wars campaigns he ran i now know how much of a pain in the ass i mustve been lol

[Salgood]

0. While I get the problem with "he's my dad", that is also the solution to your problem imho. Normally you should be able to ask your dad for help if you struggle with something in life. Even if it's just the dmg output of his character. As important tip, make sure that he gets that it's not him that you have a problem with, but explain where you struggle with designing encounters that fits the entire party (including his dmg).

__

Here some suggestions how to "deal" with high dmg PCs. Note that you need to keep a balance where "you stop your dad's character" and where you just let him shine and do his job. Try to alter between those two in a sensible way.

1. Line of Sight
If he can't see it, he can't hit it. Hide, invisibility or even temporary blind effect all fall into this category.

2. misschances
Be it from cover, concealment, or due to some magical ways, this can help to squeeze 1-2 extra rounds outta the encounter.

3. Crowd Control
Target his weak saves and do anything needed to take him outta the fight for the first few rounds. Stun, Paralyze, Sleep, fatigue/exhausted, slow or whatsoever you have to hamper his actions.

4. Mind Control
Let's see what happens if your dad's character attacks his teammates..
Let him look like he is the baddy for optimizing so much!^^

5. Battlemap Optimization
Carefully plan how the battlefield looks (difficult terrain, blocked squares, hazards, placing of the enemies....). Imho this is the most subtile way to deal with this. Carefully place your sacrificial tokens around your main foe. Make sure that it is hard to get off a Full Attack onto the main foe and move him accordingly. Hard to reach "high ground" is an option to deal with melee PCs.

6. Target his primary stat
Lowers the damage and the chance that he hits. Diseases can be interesting here if you can get past his "saves", since those will affect him for a longer time.
...

Try to use as many different tools as possible so that it doesn't feel to generic when you deal with his characters. And remind you to also have some fights where he can shine just by killing many stuff. Just use low level foes in numbers to protect the main foe. If he will kill any henchmen in a single blow anyway design more encounters with lots of low level mobs to kill.



If you can tell us a lil more about the PC, we could provide some more specific solutions. It kinda sounds like an ubercharger build, but I'm not sure. "Normally" they can be stopped very easy with any of the above mentioned options. But depending on how much he optimized, this can become really tough to deal with. But most optimize sole for damage and barely optimize to deal with their weaknesses.

While I get that damage optimization can be annoying to deal with, it's imho still the easiest optimization concept that you have to deal with as DM. Just make him aware of your struggle and ask him to maybe temporary stop adding even more damage to his build until you feel more comfortable with addressing his damage output.

i really appreciate this advice its a lot of stuff that I've never considered before for combat and im definitely gonna use some of it as for more on his character hes a duel wielding gunslinger with one of the guns being able to return before this campaign id only ran campaigns for people that had been playing at most a year or two so im really not use to how optimized hes been able to make his character and even outside of combat he took profession lawyer as a skill and is really smart in real life with law so its hard to make stuff in combat and in social situations that challenge his character or the party in it entirety because he acts as a safety net for them hes a ranger class aswell. Hope that that helps be more specific :)

[thatothersting]

Hot dang, it's my time to shine! In Dragon #354 there's an article about ancient PCs, but the important thing is the presence of feats relating to that. One of them is "Pawn in the Great Game", which breaks down as: "if you have positive HP and get knocked below -10 or fail a save against a death effect then roll a fort save (DC 25 minus your character level) and if you succeed you don't die and instead have 1 HP and take 2 points of strength and constitution drain".

The players, being level 9 with excessive damage at their disposal, can reasonably be put against, say... a level 14 Incarnate that's using the Strongheart Vest soulmeld and has bound it to his waist, which negates the stat drain from the feat. Thus, the only way to guarantee a kill on such a target is to give him a love tap after the initial nuclear blast, which demands a certain level of cooperation between the players. It's still fully susceptible to non-lethal damage for a KO, of course, but unlike a troll or other regenerator it isn't taking non-lethal automatically, it's simply refusing to die.

For added hilarity, this feat has Endurance and Diehard as its prereqs, so this thing qualifies for Steadfast Determination (Player's Handbook 2 IIRC) to ensure it doesn't autofail a save on a nat 1...

...which is clearly overkill, don't do that. Or rather, don't do both of those things; choose between "no drain" and "no fail" as the methods of slowing them down. The "no drain" version requires a low damage attack or non-lethal damage to take out, while "no fail" has to be 'killed' multiple times until his con score hits zero, necessitating lots of attacks rather than lots of damage. Either way, this thing can make for a bulky boss encounter regardless of player damage output.

And, as for the fluff regarding the "why" of such a thing... well, the Wedded to History feat itself basically lays it out as "destiny and/or some deity or something has PLANS for you" which could work wonderfully if you have any major cults in your setting, since killing the "key player" in some dark god's scheming could be a perfect excuse for giving lots of lesser enemies just that feat alone (thus ensuring they need at least a few hits to go down, which may be useful to you) and likewise applying one of the aforementioned variations to some of the big boys when you want a solo encounter. Alternatively, some kind of "beasts of legend" or "ancient horrors" excuse would work nicely, too, if themes like that are more your speed. Obviously you have to adjust these things to fit your setting and players' play style preferences, but I'd say it's a neat, rules-legal combo to haul out for when you need a roadblock that isn't impressed by damage output.

[gijoemike]

90 damage a round at level 9 is pretty typical. I think what he is trying to do is show you average characters.

A basic fighter w/ 22 str and a +2 (elemental) two-hand weapon would get 2 attacks

attacks at +19/+14 w/o power attack, +14 and +9 with a 1/2 power attack.

2d6 for a greatsword
d6 elemental damage
+9 for str
+10 for a -5 power attack ( not even max )
+2 for weapon spec ( a terrible feat but I am making a point here )
+2 for magic enhancement

results in 26 to 41 damage per attack and that is with the worst nearly most unoptimized class and build in the game.

At max power attack with some magic assist ( enlarge, prayer, basic party buff spells) we can easily get 36 to 52 still without any actual effort.

what is the rest of the party doing? What are you doing damage wise and number of enemies wise on the GM side?

[Crake]

90 damage a round at level 9 is pretty typical. I think what he is trying to do is show you average characters.

Nah, that's not typical at all. A level 9 rogue with weapon finesse, two weapon fighting and improved two weapon fighting, attacking with two shortswords, will be doing 6d6 damage per hit, and even if all 4 attacks hit, thats 24d6 damage, that's 84 average damage. But most likely all 4 attacks won't hit, you're probably looking at more like a 50% hit rate, so like, 45 damage probably closer to "typical" damage per round.

[Ferronach]

As a DM for a group including totally new players all the way through to power-gamers, I can see where you might be feeling frustrated.

One of the players in my game has a habit of great cleaving his way through all of the trash mobs and meat shields for the bosses in the first few rounds of the battles. To combat this, I like to set "squads" up against him but keep them separated so he can only take out part of the mob at a time. Couple this with every third or fourth monster miraculously having 1-4 more hp than his damage (assuming he would have killed it), and the party has a blast. He swings for the fences, mows his way through the mobs, the party picks up his leavings and more glass cannon builds pick away at the boss. I also throw incorporeal and high evasion mobs his way to slow him down. A lot of incorporeal units have some sort of Str or Con drain touch attack which makes it serious for him.

While this is obviously a little different to your situation, I do see some similarities and offer the following suggestions:

a) Have something to occupy him, be it a flying target with evasion or something incorporeal. As the ranged damage dealer, it will be up to him to deal with this threat while the party focus on the boss/land based trash. Otherwise the flying creep will pick off the party while he is going after the boss. Swarms are a wonderfully evil option (especially against a ranged unit).

b) If it is more of a big tank fight, sometimes I just don't let the enemy die (irrespective of hp and damage done) until one of the other characters gets in a hit. The party love this because he gets to make a big boom, followed by one of the weakest characters doing (comparatively) very little damage but getting the kill. I once had the bad guy have "1 hp" left over and get killed by flying shrapnel when another party member used a fireball on a mob to the side. - Remember, only you know how much hp the mob has and you can modify it on the fly to give everyone a shot at the kill.

c) Control his movements/actions/options - as others have said, use terrain and troop placement to limit his damage output

d) Let him have some of the glory by showing off on some of it, but make sure that the party is still needed to back him up or prevent him from getting surrounded.

e) Threaten his character as part of the encounter. As a ranged damage dealer, he will likely be off to the side or behind some of the party. Have a small stealth strike force lay an ambush for him (use terrain and secret doors/tunnels etc. to your advantage) once he engages or the party moves forward.

f) Remember that not all encounters have to be combat. You can use puzzles, traps, social/skill based challenges - Arrest him for some spurious claim and have a paid off judge/bailiff ignore his pleas and speeches. Let the party find a way to get him free from the outside, while he has to find some sort of legal loophole to get himself out. Bonus points for having both succeed at the same time. Have a trapped puzzle room that requires all but one character to work on the puzzle while one takes out the enemies that keep spawning whenever someone does the puzzle wrong.

g) Crowd control spells and traps are wonderful. Even if he makes his saves, some of the party is incapacitated and he has to choose between doing big damage to one guy, or saving the party from the mob about to jump them.

All of this goes with the caveat of "don't punish him or the party". It can be tempting to do something to his weapons/character etc. but it will never work out well (unless he is okay with it). Everyone is there for fun, keep it fun. I would talk to your other players on the side and ask them how they feel about the situation though, just to make sure they are still having fun. If they are not, talk to your dad and ask him to tone it down a little. Maybe he doesn't always have to use his buffs/abilities etc., or maybe he can offer you some suggestions on things to occupy his character and keep him happy while allowing the party to shine. If your players are all still having fun, take some of the suggestions from others and myself and throw them in for variety, but keep it fun and don't bludgeon them with difficult encounters.

I once played in a friend's game where everyone but me was a brand new player. I specifically built a massively tanky melee brute that could do incredible damage. I discussed it with the DM beforehand as my intent was to play him down unless the party needed to have their bacon saved. Occasionally he threw me a big bone for fun. The DM was fully aware of my weak will save and used this as a way of "keeping me at bay" while the rest of the party took care of certain problems. Crowd control spells etc. at opportune moments to let the party shine and lock me down. Everyone had a blast and I got to enjoy watching friends learn to love the game. As they grew and made new characters, I could slowly start hitting truer to my potential without outshining them.Maybe your dad is cool doing something similar in your game, you never know until you ask.

[gijoemike]

Nah, that's not typical at all. A level 9 rogue with weapon finesse, two weapon fighting and improved two weapon fighting, attacking with two shortswords, will be doing 6d6 damage per hit, and even if all 4 attacks hit, thats 24d6 damage, that's 84 average damage. But most likely all 4 attacks won't hit, you're probably looking at more like a 50% hit rate, so like, 45 damage probably closer to "typical" damage per round.

I must respectfully disagree with you Crake.

In the example you gave that rogue doesn't have magic weapons, any elemental riders, poison, etc. a 12 str score and a bard singing gets you to 90 on average. And in that example the max is over 130 damage. That is way more than what the OP is talking about. Every single battle that rogue will have a round over 75 damage.

Take an 18 str fighter using spirited charge and a 2 hand grip medium lance with only 5 pt power attack.

Raging 1/2 orc barb that charges with 8 pt power attack w/ a great sword using leap attack or valorous or headlong rush.

Evoc Wizard with metamagic and a +1 or +2 caster level feature or class can toss out 2 spells doing 11d6 and the next doing at 15. The average of that is still over 50. Granted that is spread over multiple targets and could total over 200 damage with correct AOEs.

Druid who buffed the animal comp, summoned d4 animals, and then wildshaped is looking at 60 damage with all kinds of riders.

We have clearly played very differently over the years. I just cannot see how if your PC's job is to deliver damage it isn't at least 50 or 60 per normal round.

Now there is going to be rounds where the attack misses and it will lower the overall average damage. But if they attack and hit which is going to be over 50% of the time against normal foes not focused on defenses, we can expect X damage

[Blue Jay]

I must respectfully disagree with you Crake.

In the example you gave that rogue doesn't have magic weapons, any elemental riders, poison, etc. a 12 str score and a bard singing gets you to 90 on average. And in that example the max is over 130 damage. That is way more than what the OP is talking about. Every single battle that rogue will have a round over 75 damage.

Most of my experience with 3.5e comes from a revolving-door, play-by-post game at Myth-Weavers, where we have gestalt rules and we allow Inevitability's Reassigned Level Adjustments and even some of Oslecamo's homebrew. I've seen dragon PCs, the tarrasque as a PC, and at least 3 different anthropomorphic whales (who invariably wield spiked chains fluffed as anchors, in case you weren't aware).

I've GMed in that environment for several years, and I have to say that 90 dpr at 9th level still feels like it would be a bit on the high side, even for that high-powered game. Sure, there are guys who can crank out 100+ dpr, even earlier than 9th level; but it just doesn't seem to happen that frequently in actual play.

If 80-100 damage is happening consistently, round after round, that does seem pretty atypical to me.

I don't play Pathfinder, so I'm not sure what tricks gunslingers have. But since he's a ranged attacker with multiple weapons, there's a (relatively) easy way to try to reduce his effectiveness: you just need to find ways to make him miss once or twice each round. That way, you'll reduce his effectiveness, but you won't shut him down completely (which would likely frustrate him).

The following content might be useful for this:
The Deflect Arrows feat will straight-up negate one shot per round (there's no reason it wouldn't work against bullets).
Like Gruft said, miss chances are useful. The 1st-level spell entropic shield creates a miss chance that affects ranged weapons, but doesn't affect melee.
Some items provide special defenses against ranged attacks, like an arrow catching shield or vambraces of warding.
You can also use monsters with Damage Reduction, because the DR comes off of every shot.

[Crake]

I must respectfully disagree with you Crake.

In the example you gave that rogue doesn't have magic weapons, any elemental riders, poison, etc. a 12 str score and a bard singing gets you to 90 on average. And in that example the max is over 130 damage. That is way more than what the OP is talking about. Every single battle that rogue will have a round over 75 damage.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that, of the 4 attacks per round that this theoretical rogue has, likely about half will hit, so the average damage needs to be halved to account for that.

Also, max damage is irrelevant when discussing averages, because while max damage might be 130, min damage is like 50, so it cancels out.

Also, you cant be bringing in the support abilities from other classes, because thats not representative of an individual’s power

[RNightstalker]

Like Gruft said, miss chances are useful. The 1st-level spell entropic shield creates a miss chance that affects ranged weapons, but doesn't affect melee.
[/LIST]

Even better would be a Ring of Entropic Deflection from the MIC. When combined with a speed boosting item, ranged attacks have a 50% miss chance.