New Assassin: 1/turn extra damage equal to class level. Zzzzzzz...

[Damon_Tor]

I'm really freaking tired of seeing this as Wizard's go-to solution for extra damage features. It's boring and it's non-interactive, and so freaking gamey.

[Dr.Samurai]

I'm really freaking tired of seeing this as Wizard's go-to solution for extra damage features. It's boring and it's non-interactive, and so freaking gamey.
How else do you think assassins are able to quickly and efficiently take down their targets, if not by dealing +3 damage once, in the first turn of combat?

I mean... doesn't this just scream assassin to you?

But seriously, Wizards is like "We heard you, having to surprise enemies meant this ability didn't trigger as often as we wanted, and having to track who already took a turn resulted in needless bookwork. Here's +3 damage a single time in the encounter. We think we nailed it."

[Zhorn]

Ah, so that's where the old Fury of the Small ran off to

[Kane0]

Turn the assassin's sneak attack into d8s

[Mastikator]

Turn the assassin's sneak attack into d8s

That's even less damage though, it's half rogue level extra. Change the sneak attack dice into d12s. It's on average 1.5 times rogue level.

[Kane0]

That's even less damage though, it's half rogue level extra. Change the sneak attack dice into d12s. It's on average 1.5 times rogue level.

Well until you crit, which should hopefully be rather often with all the advantage you generally have

[Mastikator]

Well until you crit, which should hopefully be rather often with all the advantage you generally have

At level 5 3d6 -> 3d8 is +3 damage, when you crit is +6, if you crit 10% of the time (because you attack with advantage and I am rounding up) you are getting +3.3

And 5 is bigger than 3.3

You'd need to raise sneak attack dice to d10 just to be equal with the +rogue level, and d12s actually get you ahead.

[Kane0]

Oh yeah fair enough

[Damon_Tor]

They could have replaced the "surprised" requirement with a less strenuous requirement that the target of the auto-crit not be aware of the assassin as initiative is rolled. That way you skip the part of the problem where your party is constantly spoiling your first round by failing their stealth checks.

The auto-crits are cool. They're an interesting way to increase damage in a way that invites more mechanical complexity by interacting with other game elements that care about crits. Replacing them with a bog-standard damage boost tacked on to the attack is such a step down.

[Opsimos]

Letting Rogues roll twice as many Sneak Attack dice and halving the costs for all of the add-ons would not be overpowered.

[Ganryu]

Okay, but Assassin's ability was clearly broken, what alternatives are suggested? This is consistent, but less swingy, meaning not DM dependent. Beforehand, you could effectively bully a GM to end any encounter early with Assassin multiclasses.

What other alternatives are there? The math above showing the sneak attack die changes wouldn't be much different.

[Oramac]

Okay, but Assassin's ability was clearly broken

Having played it and DM'd for it many times, I strongly disagree. IMO, the UA version should swap out the level-to-damage part and replace it with an auto-crit; leaving the rest as-is.

[Ganryu]

Having played it and DM'd for it many times, I strongly disagree. IMO, the UA version should swap out the level-to-damage part and replace it with an auto-crit; leaving the rest as-is.

Okay, but I would assume you're a more experienced DM. Newer DM's dealing with it often have problems for reasons I listed. Either they get bullied and it always goes off, or they just say 'no', and it never goes off making player feel useless.. I've seen that happen, 'surprised' is a more difficult mechanic in 5e.

[sayaijin]

I mentioned this in the thread I made about the Cunning Strike feature, but I hope subclasses can have unique Cunning Strike options. So the assassin could have something like: spend Xd6 to force a save (not sure which one or how many dice). On a fail, you get your dice back and crit. This becomes a high risk / high reward and kinda resembles the called shot concept.

[Dr.Samurai]

I mentioned this in the thread I made about the Cunning Strike feature, but I hope subclasses can have unique Cunning Strike options. So the assassin could have something like: spend Xd6 to force a save (not sure which one or how many dice). On a fail, you get your dice back and crit. This becomes a high risk / high reward and kinda resembles the called shot concept.
I like this idea. Do SA dice get doubled on crits again or no? Maybe Assassin can have that as part of the feature a well?

[Mastikator]

I like this idea. Do SA dice get doubled on crits again or no? Maybe Assassin can have that as part of the feature a well?

Sneak attacks (and smites) are supposed to double on crits, JC said so in a UA interview.

[Oramac]

Okay, but I would assume you're a more experienced DM. Newer DM's dealing with it often have problems for reasons I listed. Either they get bullied and it always goes off, or they just say 'no', and it never goes off making player feel useless.. I've seen that happen, 'surprised' is a more difficult mechanic in 5e.

That's fair. I have seen that happen as well. I still don't think it's broken, but I see where you're coming from. Perhaps a better solution (instead of removing the auto-crit, which is incredibly fun for the player) would be to codify and define the Surprise rules more. They could even add a Surprised Condition or something of the sort. I just feel like there's a bunch of ways to make it work without removing one of its defining features.

[Ganryu]

That's fair. I have seen that happen as well. I still don't think it's broken, but I see where you're coming from. Perhaps a better solution (instead of removing the auto-crit, which is incredibly fun for the player) would be to codify and define the Surprise rules more. They could even add a Surprised Condition or something of the sort. I just feel like there's a bunch of ways to make it work without removing one of its defining features.
Oh yeah, in that case, I completely agree.

[Witty Username]

What would peoples opinions be of rogues getting, as a general rule, a way to effectively double their sneak attack damage with the first sublclass feature? Like say if assassin auto-critted enemies while hidden or a swashbuckler type got to make a second sneak attack if it was with an off hand weapon.

We already know optimized builds tend to get damage up to snuff by doubling up, building it into the class may be how to solve this feeling of impact and raise the rogue skill floor for builds.

[Kane0]

You'd have to make sure it wasnt abusable by MCs taking dips

[Aquillion]

I mean I'm pretty sure there has never been a good version of the Assassin PRC / subclass across all of D&D and Pathfinder.

And it's not hard to see why! At low level, instant death attacks are hard to balance. When you add to that that they're similar to the rogue and are a marital class (meaning they'll get balanced against rogues and fighters), and that rogues already have near the top-end of bonus damage that the developers are willing to give, well, you don't have a recipe for a strong class.

I think that they could probably salvage them with some sort of all-or-nothing "instantly kill a target with less than X HP" ability, but they're too cautious with marital classes for that.

[Witty Username]

You'd have to make sure it wasnt abusable by MCs taking dips

My thoughts on that is you could tie it to sneak attack directly, since sneak attack is one of the more linear scaling things.

For example, say an archetype that allows sneak attack with with a main hand attack, and off hand attack.
A third level rogue is getting 2d6 each side,

if say the character did a 3rd level dip in rouge, maybe after 5th because extra attack, they would add 2d6 damage on two attacks in their line, which is nice

but an 8th level rogue would continue to progress sneak attack, 4d6 each side, and on the cusp of 5d6 at 9th.

assuming something like short swords:
Fighter math
3d6 + dex, 3d6 + dex (off-hand), 1d6 +dex (extra)
Rogue math
5d6+dex, 5d6 + dex

so the difference is 3d6 of damage, vs an additional dex bonus

this implementation would mean that there would be niceness to the dip, but also rewards for sticking with rogue to the end.

Indirect methods do have greater risk, we see this already with some optimized builds dipping assassin for the auto crits, so they can use it with other high damage nonsense like shadow blade or smite. I don't think they are entirely unusable. sneak attack is a strong base for multipliers, I think the only big one is something that would make off turn attacks easier should likely be avoided, since that awards play for someone less squishy than rogue is traditionally.

So in short,
Safe methods from existing designs,
Phantom rogues wails from the grave,
Less safe methods,
Assassins auto-crits
Thief's Reflexes

[sayaijin]

What would peoples opinions be of rogues getting, as a general rule, a way to effectively double their sneak attack damage with the first sublclass feature? Like say if assassin auto-critted enemies while hidden or a swashbuckler type got to make a second sneak attack if it was with an off hand weapon.


I didn't come up with this idea, but one solution is to give a boost to uncanny dodge (either at 5 or a higher level) that allows the rogue to make a single attack against their attacker as part of the reaction. This way the rogue always has an off turn SA ready, and it requires them to be even more tactical.

[SharkForce]

Having played it and DM'd for it many times, I strongly disagree. IMO, the UA version should swap out the level-to-damage part and replace it with an auto-crit; leaving the rest as-is.

Broken doesn't only mean overpowered. It can also just mean that it doesn't really work.

To be clear, I am not interested in arguing that it was overpowered or underpowered. But I do think there's a pretty strong argument that it didn't work well.

There was also a trend of people using it to boost non-assassin sources of damage rather than anything to do with being an assassin... like looking for a flaming sword, using a paladin's smite, a battlemaster's maneuvers, or a warrior's extra attacks. Because nothing says you're a stealthy assassin quite like walking around with a highly visible sword-shaped light source and smiting your enemies in the name of justice/happiness/vengeance/whatever in a brilliant flash of light.... except for doing that 3 times in around (other than the actual sneak attack portion of the damage).

(as a side note, I am also not interested in trying to argue whether the new class feature is good, or that it feels properly assassin-themed, or that it is neither of those things. I'm just pointing out that in my opinion there were definite flaws with the old class feature and I'm happy to see them at least try to address that).

[Amnestic]

You can take Assassin in a number of directions, and given that Thief is meant to be the "Champion" of Rogues I don't think Assassin being a bit more complex is a bad thing; it'd be hard for it to be more complex than the spellcasting Arcane Trickster, after all.

In the context of a team game where solo adventures of the stealth assassin are less likely to get a lot of play focus, I'd prefer one of two routes to go with it.
A) Stealth support - that is, your features are aimed towards making the party better at stealth and better at getting those surprise rounds together, instead of being 'selfish'. They might be similar (though perhaps with a more mundane focus) to current era shadow monks, in that regard.
B) Poison-master - rather than worry about surprise or first-turns, you get more readied access to poisons, better at applying them and - at higher levels - perhaps work in a bypass for poison resistance/immunity. If arcane trickster can be magical, then an assassin can brew up some magic poison that's just that potent.

I'll admit the second one is born out of a bit of annoyance that Mercy monk is a better poisoners than any rogue (sub)class.

[Dork_Forge]

At level 5 3d6 -> 3d8 is +3 damage, when you crit is +6, if you crit 10% of the time (because you attack with advantage and I am rounding up) you are getting +3.3

And 5 is bigger than 3.3

You'd need to raise sneak attack dice to d10 just to be equal with the +rogue level, and d12s actually get you ahead.

This kind of maths as an end statement really bugs me. By doing it this way you're saying that the value of increasing the dice by a size is simply +1 and that the crit value is only 0.3 on top of that. Except that this is entirely divorced from actually playing the game.

- You don't experience decimal points in play, they're entirely irrelevant. If the average increase for SA going to d8s is +3, then that bonus cumulatively becomes +6 at that level when crits happen. This will continue to grow with SA progression. Working out the value of a crit based on crit chance without any acknowledgment of the actual numbers when you do crit is just doing a disservice to whatever is being discussed. This is even more true because the individual doesn't experience averages, I've had players roll a fistful of crits in a session, sometimes back to back and even sometimes rolling two 20s at once at advantage. The nature of using dice means you can't just park in this kind of maths alone.

- This is also just talking about the average damage, whereas it raises the ceiling of a non-crit SA at 5th level by +6. This should also be considered because there will be times where players roll above average.

Now, I would personally prefer the flat damage just because I like grabbing flat damage numbers, but the argument is far more nuanced than 5 is greater than 3.3, especially when the UA Rogue in question is always attacking at advantage when this ability is relevant.



Separately, I don't think either option is actually good enough. An ability that only functions on the first round of every combat can and should be significantly powerful because it's so limited and subject to waste. The Gloomstalker did this well, it got a bunch of stuff besides the additional attack and then the attack itself was extremely high value with a high ceiling. When certain other Rogues can exploit damage boosts at times they choose, looking at you in this UA Arcane Trickster (but also Phantom and Soul knife in 5e), then a Rogue whose foundation ability revolves around one hard-hitting round needs to really bring the heat.

[Mastikator]

This kind of maths as an end statement really bugs me. By doing it this way you're saying that the value of increasing the dice by a size is simply +1 and that the crit value is only 0.3 on top of that. Except that this is entirely divorced from actually playing the game.

- You don't experience decimal points in play, they're entirely irrelevant. If the average increase for SA going to d8s is +3, then that bonus cumulatively becomes +6 at that level when crits happen. This will continue to grow with SA progression. Working out the value of a crit based on crit chance without any acknowledgment of the actual numbers when you do crit is just doing a disservice to whatever is being discussed. This is even more true because the individual doesn't experience averages, I've had players roll a fistful of crits in a session, sometimes back to back and even sometimes rolling two 20s at once at advantage. The nature of using dice means you can't just park in this kind of maths alone.

- This is also just talking about the average damage, whereas it raises the ceiling of a non-crit SA at 5th level by +6. This should also be considered because there will be times where players roll above average.

Now, I would personally prefer the flat damage just because I like grabbing flat damage numbers, but the argument is far more nuanced than 5 is greater than 3.3, especially when the UA Rogue in question is always attacking at advantage when this ability is relevant.



Separately, I don't think either option is actually good enough. An ability that only functions on the first round of every combat can and should be significantly powerful because it's so limited and subject to waste. The Gloomstalker did this well, it got a bunch of stuff besides the additional attack and then the attack itself was extremely high value with a high ceiling. When certain other Rogues can exploit damage boosts at times they choose, looking at you in this UA Arcane Trickster (but also Phantom and Soul knife in 5e), then a Rogue whose foundation ability revolves around one hard-hitting round needs to really bring the heat.

There are two important aspects that stands out to me when dealing with the assassin: the expected DRP and the ludonarrative.

From the DPR aspect I think a flat bonus is better than changing it to a D8, however if you prefer the dice upgrade then my point wasn't that 5 is bigger than 3.3. My point is that D8 is not enough, it should be D10, or D12 even. Yes, if you just want assassins to make big sneak attacks or whatever and don't like the flat bonus then I advocate for upgrading their sneak attack dice to D12. Yes really. D12 sneak attack.

However the more ludonarrative also matters. Getting a free crit on a surprised target is very ludonarratively harmonic, it jives with the class. It is however mechanically bad. So instead change the "free crit" to "use D12 for sneak attack", and change the "surprised" condition with another condition, a condition that the assassin can impose on a target.

For example, I would let assassins have a chance to daze a target, (maybe with a bonus action, and the target can save against it?), and then when it deals sneak attack damage against a dazed target they sneak attack dice are upgraded to D12.
It would be ludonarratively harmonic and mechanically sound, you impose a condition on a target that allows you to assassinate it, then you assassinate it. It gives the power to the player to use their class feature. AND it helps other players, AND it is helped by other players.

[Dr.Samurai]

To piggyback off Mastikator's post, would it be too much to:

1. Let the assassin make all types of cool poisons at level 3. This could be similar to Cunning Strike, getting it earlier, and doing other things. (Out of combat, let the assassin be someone from which others can procure poisons.)
2. Auto-crit enemies suffering from the Poisoned condition? This could still be limited to the first round of combat, but then you run into action economy (rogue won't typically be able to pull off by themselves). Also won't work on some enemies unless they ignore Poison immunity. Maybe at level 3 they get a bonus action to be used in the first round that can Poison a target hit?

[Boverk]

2. Auto-crit enemies suffering from the Poisoned condition? This could still be limited to the first round of combat, but then you run into action economy (rogue won't typically be able to pull off by themselves). Also won't work on some enemies unless they ignore Poison immunity. Maybe at level 3 they get a bonus action to be used in the first round that can Poison a target hit?

Maybe once per target and dex-mod per day..i.e. once you've auto-crit against this mook, you can't do it again, because they're wary of you.

That would prevent you from doing 5 auto crits against the same mob, but you could clear out a pack of fodder.

[Hurrashane]

To piggyback off Mastikator's post, would it be too much to:

1. Let the assassin make all types of cool poisons at level 3. This could be similar to Cunning Strike, getting it earlier, and doing other things. (Out of combat, let the assassin be someone from which others can procure poisons.)


They get poisoners kit proficiency so they can technically do this already via crafting rules.

[KorvinStarmast]

When certain other Rogues can exploit damage boosts at times they choose, looking at you in this UA Arcane Trickster (but also Phantom and Soul knife in 5e), then a Rogue whose foundation ability revolves around one hard-hitting round needs to really bring the heat. Amen.

There are two important aspects that stands out to me when dealing with the assassin: the expected DRP and the ludonarrative. Applaud the whole post.

Yes really. D12 sneak attack. I like it. D8 in tier II, D 10 in Tier 3, D 12 in Tier 4, or, D8 at level 3, D10 at (some level?) and D12 at (some level) the way a Bardic Inspiration die increases at certain levels.

However the more ludonarrative also matters. Getting a free crit on a surprised target is very ludonarratively harmonic, it jives with the class. It does.

They get poisoners kit proficiency so they can technically do this already via crafting rules. We'll discuss how many monsters are poison immune / resistant separately. :smallwink:

[sayaijin]

Which is preferable for the assassin at level 3? A way to deal extra damage to an "unsuspecting" enemy or damage over time from poisoning?

In other words, would it be better if the level 13 ability was the one they get at level 3? Realizing of course that this would require cunning strikes to come online earlier or this feature not be tied to cunning strikes.

I would personally give them both nova damage and damage over time, but I'm biased.

[elyktsorb]

They get poisoners kit proficiency so they can technically do this already via crafting rules.

Unless they've changed the crafting rules for poisons, the current rules for making them are absolute dogwater and basically require you to have the highest skill possible, and to my knowledge there's no way to get Expertise on Poisoner's Kit (or any tool aside from Thieve's Tools)

[Amnestic]

Unless they've changed the crafting rules for poisons, the current rules for making them are absolute dogwater and basically require you to have the highest skill possible, and to my knowledge there's no way to get Expertise on Poisoner's Kit (or any tool aside from Thieve's Tools)

Not for Assassin. Artificer does get expertise in all tools they're proficient with, so far as I know that's the only option, and it's not a 'cheap' level investment (Artificer 6) to get either, so it does basically preclude it from availability for an assassin.

[Dr.Samurai]

I know there are already crafting rules for poison.

But you're one of those "exceptional" PCs so... Assassins should be able to set the DCs on their poisons, get Expertise in the tool kit, make poisons others can't, make them more quickly/efficiently, etc. Probably make a batch every long rest, and not the kind that stop working after the next rest.

People with the resources and inclination should be coming to you for poison stuff.

[Oramac]

I would personally give them both nova damage and damage over time, but I'm biased.

Agreed. One big fun nova at the start of combat; damage over time thereafter. Perhaps the DoT could be based on the damage of said nova.


But you're one of those "exceptional" PCs so... Assassins should be able to set the DCs on their poisons, get Expertise in the tool kit, make poisons others can't, make them more quickly/efficiently, etc. Probably make a batch every long rest, and not the kind that stop working after the next rest.

People with the resources and inclination should be coming to you for poison stuff.

Also agreed. The subclass called "Assassin" should be, you know, an assassin. Special tools/skills/weapons related to assassination. Hell, on top of poisons, give em a garrote while we're at it. Perhaps even a cyclone dagger (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01NAZK69G?tag=bravesoftwa04-20&linkCode=osi&th=1&psc=1&language=en_US) (or whatever it's called).

[Dr.Samurai]

I am all for gear. The issue is that people complain that subclass features requiring gear can't be used if you lose that gear. That's where we get things like:

Assassin's Garrote
You learn the ability to summon a spectral garrote if both hands are free. The garrote deals radiant force damage. As a bonus action, you can let the garrote go and it floats in the air and continues to fight for you, making an attack using your spell attack modifier. On following turns, you can use your bonus action to make an attack with the garrote.

But a garrote would be a great addition to the assassin subclass. Perhaps, so long as you have tools on you, you can craft a garrote in some number of minutes (although virtually anything can be used as a garrote)? The garrote could do a number of things:

1. If you hit, the assassin can make a grapple attempt.
2. Base the Escape DC off Dexterity instead of Strength.
3. Deal Sneak Attack damage to any creature it is grappling with the Garrote.
4. Maybe at level 9 it imposes Disadvantage on the escape save?
5. Maybe at level 9 you get a new Cunning Strike feature: When you Sneak Attack a grappled enemy with your Garrote, you can initiate suffocation? Or you get the Knockout feature early, and a save-or-die feature with Devious Strikes later?

Just off the top of my head. But I agree the assassin should have some cool gear.