RSoP Help

[Raendyn]

Hello playgrounders,

I am building a Radiant Servant of Pelor for an Expedition to Castle Ravenloft mini Campaign. And I got couple questions that you guys might have the answers for.
I am hard set on this character concept of anti-undead/anti-Evil Outsider thing and it seems a hybrid RSoP + Sacred Exorcist fits it well. The point is to have DMM persist few strong buffs (mostly for the rest of the party, i only plan to DPower myself) while doing strong Turning. So i planned to end up using my Cleric TU attempts for Persist and my Greater Turnings for the actual undead we're gonna fight.

As of now the Char starts at lvl 7 with Cloistered Cleric-6 / RSoP-1 and i plan to get 1 lvl RSoP then 2 lvls SaxEx then +1 w/e and that's around where the campaign will end.
The Reason I'm posting is that i am sort of a couple TU attempts to get a 3rd persisted buff and after some research I didn't manage to find a way to overcome this issue.
I am Human and I don't think i can change that since i need 3 feats for DmmPersist and 1 for the RSoP Req. I have 18 cha ATM (including the lvl4 increase) and ATM I count 19 attempts 3(base)+ 4(cha) + 2(Eagle's Splendor) + 4 Extra Turning + 4 Nightstick + 2 (Reliquary Holy Symbol).
This is extra important cause I will soon get a 2nd pool of TU and I'd rather go from 3 to 6 rather than 2 to 4 buffs.(I traded my TU for the module specific Destroy undead and I'll get TU again from SacEx), More Nightsticks are also out of the question.

#1 So is there anything else i can do to reach that 21 attempts I need??
#2 Any suggestions as for what to Persist are also welcome. The current plan is to Divine Power myself and then maybe Darkflame maybe mass vigor etc.
#3 I got the standard 19k gold and i was planning to buy a nightstick 7500 + Flametouched Greater True Reliquary Holy Symbol 2250 + Rod of Defiance 7300. Maybe you can suggest some other setup?

Thanks in advance for your help

[Inevitability]

Do you know your party members' builds? That'll help us suggest useful buffs for them.

[Raendyn]

Yes of course!

A Crackdown Warblade(or CRus idk) but its a tank tripper. A nucker sorc with arcane thesis'ed WoFlurry etc, a potato ranger skillmonkey with a bow

[Anthrowhale]

Some thoughts:


The "inner beauty" spell is potentially relevant if you have an archivist in the party who met a divine bard.
The "easy metamagic" feat reduces the cost by 1.
Levelups+Old age could increase Cha by 4 at level 8
A lesser rod of extend would make any 1st-3rd level persistent spell last for 2 days.
You might consider taking a level of Church Inquisitor to hasten entry into RSoP and in turn hasten entry into Sacred Exorcist.
Elation is another decent party buff.
If you wanted to really go nuts with persistent spells, you would use Spelldancer with the Sheltered Vitality spell.
Destroy Undead is actually a pretty good ACF in an undead heavy campaign.

[Raendyn]

Yeah.. thanks for your suggestion but i dont have that archivist, i cant afford any feats atm, the venerable thing would cost WAY too much and spelldancer is something i'd rather not touch. As for the rod, we (both my grp and I) dont see it working like this.

I considered CInq but it has alignment issues with RSoP which is the main hero of my theme, same with prestige paladin.
I have elation on my expanded Persist list but since i got like 2 buffs atm id rather get DP and fast healing. Nice one though, i rly do like it.

#8 you think its worth to keep few destroy undead attempts around for aoe dmg on anything i cant GreaterTurn? Even if it costs a persisted buff?

Edit: I am looking for a cleric spell that i missed which gives a non-enhancement bonus to cha, or an item or a class ability maybe assuming it wont ruin the RSoP

[Anthrowhale]

#8 you think its worth to keep few destroy undead attempts around for aoe dmg on anything i cant GreaterTurn? Even if it costs a persisted buff?

There are 3 cases:
(a) Hordes of undead, with most not a high level: Destroy Undead is better since it hits everything in a 30' radius.
(b) A few undead, not a high level: Greater Turning dominates them.
(c) High level undead that you can't turn: use Destroy Undead to accumulate over rounds and other character actions.



Edit: I am looking for a cleric spell that i missed which gives a non-enhancement bonus to cha, or an item or a class ability maybe assuming it wont ruin the RSoP

Doesn't exist (https://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=176.msg577#msg577). If you fill in details about your feats/race, it may be possible to do some alteration for success.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The Prefect's Vestment (ECR, 6000gp) gives +1 turn attempt per day at a reasonable price, though since you're playing ECR you'll probably get it as loot anyway.
There's also the Sword of the Glorious Pearl (SW, 75k gp, +4 uses) and Sword of Crypts (A&EG, 43k gp, +1 use), but both are way too expensive if you don't use their other features.

[Khedrac]

Re. the number of turning attempts per day:

1. I don't think you should count on eagle's splendor giving you any extra turning attempts unless you run it by your DM first. An item of an enhancement bonus to charisma yes, but a short-turn buff like that is not something I have seen a DM ever allow to boost the number per day.

2. When are you getting an extra pool of turning from? (You say you will soon get a second pool.) Don't say "Sacred Exorcist" as it specifically doesn't do that:

Turn Undead (Su): Sacred exorcists can turn undead as clerics do. If a sacred exorcist has this ability from another class, her class levels stack to determine her effective turning level.
It's not one pool at level 8 and a second at at level 1, it's one pool at level 9.

[Raendyn]

There are 3 cases:
(a) Hordes of undead, with most not a high level: Destroy Undead is better since it hits everything in a 30' radius.
(b) A few undead, not a high level: Greater Turning dominates them.
(c) High level undead that you can't turn: use Destroy Undead to accumulate over rounds and other character actions.

Afterall, it seems I will have spare of those. :smallsmile:



If you fill in details about your feats/race, it may be possible to do some alteration for success.


I am Human and I don't think i can change that since i need 3 feats for DmmPersist and 1 for the RSoP Req.
I have 18 cha ATM (including the lvl4 increase) and ATM I count 19 attempts 3(base)+ 4(cha) + 2(Eagle's Splendor) + 4 Extra Turning + 4 Nightstick + 2 (Reliquary Holy Symbol).
I'll throw some additional info. Point buy is 32 i started with 11/11/13/9/16/16 and went middle age => 10/10/12/10/17/17. At lvl 4 i increased Cha to 18. RSoP is the main theme of this character and i wanna have it at lvl 7, this bugger has Alignment restriction of NG and req Extra Turning feat. I'd also rather have the ability to DMM Persist at lvl 7 as well.


Doesn't exist (https://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=176.msg577#msg577).
I was afraid it might be the case...

The Prefect's Vestment (ECR, 6000gp) gives +1 turn attempt per day at a reasonable price
That's actually good, now i only need +2 CHA which might make the aging option less of detriment, need to check on it. Thanks!


Re. the number of turning attempts per day:

1. I don't think you should count on eagle's splendor giving you any extra turning attempts unless you run it by your DM first. An item of an enhancement bonus to charisma yes, but a short-turn buff like that is not something I have seen a DM ever allow to boost the number per day.

2. When are you getting an extra pool of turning from? (You say you will soon get a second pool.) Don't say "Sacred Exorcist" as it specifically doesn't do that:

It's not one pool at level 8 and a second at at level 1, it's one pool at level 9.

1: DM said it does but getting an item isnt too much of a deal either.
2: I traded away my TurnUndead for Destroy undead, so now i dont have turn undead. That means SaxEx will give me one. DM accepted it works like this, so im good.

Thank you all for your answers!

[SirNibbles]

2: I traded away my TurnUndead for Destroy undead, so now i dont have turn undead. That means SaxEx will give me one.

Not sure I understand what you mean.

"Destroy undead still counts as turn undead for the purpose of meeting prerequisites for feats, prestige classes, and so forth. A lightbringer cleric can use this ability the same number of times per day that he could turn undead. If a feat requires the expenditure of one or more uses of turn undead, it instead consumes uses of this ability. Any ability that grants a bonus to turning checks instead grants an equal bonus to this ability's save DC. This is a supernatural ability."

Also, if you know you're fighting undead, especially with RSoP light radius bonus, this build is begging for Celestial brilliance/Bane magic.

[Raendyn]

Also, if you know you're fighting undead, especially with RSoP light radius bonus, this build is being for Celestial brilliance/Bane magic.

Damn that's so good! I had in mind to get persistent positive energy aura to both solve healing OOC and passive undead dps. Now you are tempting me with this superior range, nice catch!


MAybe we could find a way to get one of the spells from bardList/FiendishCodex/Paladin that give non-enhancement bonus to CHA? As long as i dont sacrifice spellcasting progression, even if i get it at lvl 8 or 9 it should be alright.

[Raendyn]

I am not very good with crafting rules, so i'll need some help with the cost here, but could I order a custom make item I could use without UMD check that would allow me to cast on myself one of the spells in question?

Snowsong: Bard 6; +4 cha (morale)
Righteous Aura: Paladin 4; +4 cha (sacred)
Inner Beauty: Bard 4; +4 dex (sacred)

Or even Devil's Ego: Diabolic 3; +4 cha (profane), but Idk how it would fit into my concept of good and righteousness well...

Which one would be the cheapest?

[Anthrowhale]

I'll throw some additional info. Point buy is 32 i started with 11/11/13/9/16/16 and went middle age => 10/10/12/10/17/17. At lvl 4 i increased Cha to 18. RSoP is the main theme of this character and i wanna have it at lvl 7, this bugger has Alignment restriction of NG and req Extra Turning feat. I'd also rather have the ability to DMM Persist at lvl 7 as well.

That's helpful, thanks.

If you can use flaws, that of course helps with the feat situation opening up possibilities.

Further aging appears unhelpful, since you could just start with different/better stats.

There are a couple LA+0 templates which give cha+2: Magic-blooded (Dragon #306), and Unseelie Fey (Dragon Compendium). If you add one, the other, or both onto a human, you keep the bonus feat.

[Raendyn]

Magazines aren't allowed. Is dragon compendium official wotc material? if yes i might be able to

I'm afraid i'll have to craft the item

[Inevitability]

Magazines aren't allowed. Is dragon compendium official wotc material? if yes i might be able to

It's officialler than dragon magazine: there's a WotC logo in the front, which dragon magazine lacks but which official books have. At the same time, it's still material written by a second-party publisher and only after the fact approved for publication by WotC, and there's some genuinely wonky stuff in there (not overpowered, just grossly unlike the rest of the game in how it functions). I'd say it's first-party, personally.

[SirNibbles]

It's officialler than dragon magazine: there's a WotC logo in the front, which dragon magazine lacks but which official books have. At the same time, it's still material written by a second-party publisher and only after the fact approved for publication by WotC, and there's some genuinely wonky stuff in there (not overpowered, just grossly unlike the rest of the game in how it functions). I'd say it's first-party, personally.

Drag mag 342 has the D&D logo on the cover and says 100% official content. I don't have the others within arms reach but assume most have the same.

Also, most magazine content was written by the same people who contributed to the 'official' books.

[Saintheart]

I am not very good with crafting rules, so i'll need some help with the cost here, but could I order a custom make item I could use without UMD check that would allow me to cast on myself one of the spells in question?

Snowsong: Bard 6; +4 cha (morale)
Righteous Aura: Paladin 4; +4 cha (sacred)
Inner Beauty: Bard 4; +4 dex (sacred)

Or even Devil's Ego: Diabolic 3; +4 cha (profane), but Idk how it would fit into my concept of good and righteousness well...

Which one would be the cheapest?


Of those, Devil's Ego would come out cheapest since it's assumed a magic item is crafted at the minimum possible caster level capable of casting the spell to begin with. Assuming an magic item you can use at will, the base price therefore would be 3 [Level of Spell - this is a 3rd level domain (Diabolic) spell] x 5 [Minimum Cleric Caster Level - see below] x 2,000 gp [normal multiplier for an at-will item] = 30,000 gp.

Base prices on at-will items of the other spells, calculated the same way:

- Bard 6 spell item be 6 x 16 x 2,000 = 192,000 gp

- Bard 4 spell item = 4 x 10 x 2,000 = 80,000 gp.

- A Paladin 4 spell would be 4 x 14 x 2,000 = 112,000 gp. (EDIT: Zarvistic below is quite right, it's actually CL 7, not 14. Thus, 4 x 7 x 2,000 = 56,000 gp).


So yeah, an item of Devil's Ego beats all these by a country mile at 30,000 gp, but it's obviously still not cheap.

You can resort to some cheesemongery to get that base price down further -- if you can convince the DM that your Devil's Ego item was made by a Divine Crusader.

These guys cast domain spells (indeed that's all they can cast), and a Divine Crusader gets third level domain spells at CL 3 -- they have what I call a "fast spellcasting progression", i.e. they pick up a new level of spells with every increase in caster level, i.e. every class level. If you convince your DM the item was made by a Divine Crusader, the base price of the item would be 3 [level of spell] x 3 [Caster Level] x 2,000 = 18,000 gp base price. Items are priced on the assumption that the lowest possible caster level capable of creating the item, but when the crafting rules were made fast progression classes like the Divine Crusader and the Ur-Priest weren't around.

And obviously other discounts can include cutting the number of uses per day, or deem it only useable by a certain class or race. SRD talks about these more.

[Zarvistic]

Just wanted to note, I believe that paladin item is at caster level 7, so would be 56k.

[Clause]

You can go on levels of war Weaver + uncanny tricster, so you will put 7th lvl spells on your weave. Cerullean keeper will open a new gamma of buffs you can put in your weave too.

Keeper of the cerullean sigil*.

[Raendyn]

30,000 gp.
192,000 gp
80,000 gp.
56,000 gp
18,000

How much would these become for 1/day assuming X skillRanks on Y skill and NG alignment restriction requirements?

I def wont get away with fast progression caster crafter, but the DMG cost reductions should be game.

[Saintheart]

How much would these become for 1/day assuming X skillRanks on Y skill and NG alignment restriction requirements?

I def wont get away with fast progression caster crafter, but the DMG cost reductions should be game.

If you're going to restrict them to 1/day, it's one-fifth of the price in each case.

30,000 gp becomes 6,000 gp.
192,000 gp becomes 38,500 gp
80,000 gp becomes 16,000 gp.
56,000 gp becomes 11,200 gp.

Getting discounts by reason of the item having restrictions is more a DM fiat question, albeit the SRD/DMG gives recommendations for how much a restriction should warrant. You're going to get the hairy eyeball from your DM if you just happen to have all the skills and alignment required to use the custom item in question and then claim discounts on its price, i.e. it's cheesemongery to some extent.

That said: requiring a particular skill (no particular skill rank required) warrants about a 10% cost reduction, and requiring a specific alignment cuts it by 30%. So total of 40% reduction on the above prices if your DM is generous enough to allow a cumulative discount. Remember, these are guidelines, not absolute RAW. In particular even if I were a generous DM I'd balk at creating an item that casts Devil's Ego with a neutral good alignment restriction -- that's just chalk and cheese in my view.

[Olive_Sophia]

I am playing a similar character right now. I was able to take flaws though which gave me more feats to work with.

Turn Undead can be really really great if you optimize it. Greater Turning is a lot better than Destroy Undead if you do. Even against hordes, wiping out several to most of them is way stronger than lightly damaging a bunch. Turn also has a bigger range - huge actually. You can still keep a usage or two of Destroy Undead if you think that your DM will be throwing a lot of big, turn-resistance heavy undead your way, but as you're noticing those usages are going to be very sparse with DMM.

I think you're fine to gain extra turn attempts from a temporary Cha buff. I looked into it a bit and I didn't see anything that would indicate otherwise. And it's not like you have to prepare the attempts or anything like spells. I wish you luck in gaining another two attempts, but it can be difficult. If you have another pool set up for the future, I would tell you not to worry about it for now. Think about it this way: If you had enough attempts to persist three spells, but then you didn't have a single turn attempt left to actually use your optimized turning, would you be satisfied? It feels like you need two more attempts, but you'd probably want three or four more if possible.

Your effective turning level is the most important thing to optimize if you're going to actually be using these attempts. I'd recommend a Phylactery of Undead Turning instead of a Rod of Defiance, as it's slightly cheaper - and because +4 Effective Turning Level is better than -4 turn resistance. The latter doesn't do anything if the enemies don't have turn resistance. And the former actually improves your turning damage as well.

Here are some other good options for making your Greater Turn Undead better:
Ephod of Authority (+ 1 turning level)
A level of Paragnostic Apostle, taking See through the Veil (+ 2 turning level) - very easy to qualify for.
Flametouched Iron Holy Symbol (+ 1 turning level) - Stronger than the reliquary one, but you'd lose a few attempts.
Sacred enhancement for armor/shields. (+2 turning level) - too expensive for now, but maybe later on.

Glory Domain - + 1d6 to turning damage! and +2 to the turning check
Quicken Turning - Use your Greater Turn Attempts as a free action. This is a great feat if you plan to actually use turning.
Empower Turning - After everything else, multiply your turning damage by 1.5.

The last time my character used a Greater Turning, she was able to automatically destroy undead up to 17 HD. And she destroyed 43 HD of them. At level 7. :smallbiggrin:

--

And here are some of the best spells to persist at your level:

Holy Transformation, Lesser - Gain a fly speed, darkvision, +2 sacred to Strength, Constitution, and all saves.
Mass Aid - Give the whole party a bunch of temp hp and +1 morale to attacks (and saves against fear but who cares.)
Elation - Give the whole party +2 morale to Strength and Dexterity, and +5ft speed.
Recitation - Give the whole party +2 luck to AC, Attacks, and all Saves. It's a +3 instead for you and anyone who happens to worship your deity. (You can grab a lower level version from the purification domain if you want.)
Cloud of Knives - A great spell anyways - just keep it on all day to have another free action every turn in combat.
Conviction - Give the whole party +3 morale to all saving throws (at this level, it can scale higher.)

[sleepyphoenixx]

I'd recommend a Phylactery of Undead Turning instead of a Rod of Defiance, as it's slightly cheaper - and because +4 Effective Turning Level is better than -4 turn resistance. The latter doesn't do anything if the enemies don't have turn resistance. And the former actually improves your turning damage as well.


The Rod of Defiance doesn't reduce turn resistance, it makes undead count as 4 HD lower for turning.
It's much better than +4 turn levels since you need 2 turn levels to destroy/command for every HD an enemy has.

The same applies to the Lyre of the Restful Soul (LM) which does reduce turn resistance but can explicitly go into the negatives.

[Olive_Sophia]

The Rod of Defiance doesn't reduce turn resistance, it makes undead count as 4 HD lower for turning.

Ah, I was looking at a different Rod of Defiance then (the one from LM).


It's much better than +4 turn levels since you need 2 turn levels to destroy/command for every HD an enemy has.

Well, you don't though, with Greater Turn Undead, which we're using here. So the phylactery comes out better again. Because it gives you the same effective buff to your turning ability, and also improves your turning damage.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Well, you don't though, with Greater Turn Undead, which we're using here. So the phylactery comes out better again. Because it gives you the same effective buff to your turning ability, and also improves your turning damage.

It's not. +4 turning damage lets you turn 4HD more. All undead within range counting as 4HD lower is at worst even for a single undead and much better when turning multiple undead.

[Olive_Sophia]

It's not. +4 turning damage lets you turn 4HD more. All undead within range counting as 4HD lower is at worst even for a single undead and much better when turning multiple undead.

Point taken. I hadn’t considered that the -4 HD would also help with turning damage. So that would let you turn low HD undead with minimum cost to your turn damage pool. That’s pretty amazing. I’ll have to pick one up for my character. I wonder if my DM will let me add the property to the weapon I’m using.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Point taken. I hadn’t considered that the -4 HD would also help with turning damage. So that would let you turn low HD undead with minimum cost to your turn damage pool. That’s pretty amazing. I’ll have to pick one up for my character. I wonder if my DM will let me add the property to the weapon I’m using.

The rod does count as a +1 heavy mace already, so you have a good argument for enchanting it further at least.
If you have anyone in the party who can manage the perform check - and don't mind making any future undead encounters completely trivial - i'd also suggest getting a Lyre of the Restful Soul since it does pretty much the same thing (and they stack).

Also while it's not applicable to an RSoP the rod and lyre are even better for rebuking/commanding since it'll also make commanded undead take less of your command pool HD (it escalates quickly (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25485822&postcount=9)).

[Troacctid]

Here's my list of items you can buy that will help you out with your turning attempts: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1sJRCphWkrtLm8Q6iD6_YPp00MggiAT556j9231uu5Lg/edit#gid=0&fvid=1055312144

The way I personally rule temporary Cha bonuses is that you have the number of turning attempts you've used today, and you have the maximum number you're allowed to use, and eagle's splendor increases the latter but doesn't reset the former. So if you've used up 6/7 attempts, and you cast eagle's splendor, now you're at 6/9 attempts used. Let's say you use another during the duration of the spell, and you're at 7/9 used. Then the spell wears off, and you're back to 7/7 uses expended—none left. Your effective daily uses didn't actually increase. But if you used up three uses during the duration instead, you'd be at 9/9 and then go back to 9 uses expended out of a max of 7, and that's where you get your value. Of course, that's all the value you could get out of that spell, since if you cast it again, it'll just put you back at 9/9 uses expended—still capped out for the day.

It sounds like that's how your DM is ruling it too, so I approve.

[Raendyn]

If you're going to restrict them to 1/day, it's one-fifth of the price in each case.

30,000 gp becomes 6,000 gp.
192,000 gp becomes 38,500 gp
80,000 gp becomes 16,000 gp.
56,000 gp becomes 11,200 gp.
...
that's just chalk and cheese in my view.

Its cheese in mine as well, and i'd slap myself be4 i suggested a NG devil's ego item or a non-LG paladin spell, but an items casting a bard4 spell with NG alignment and Perform skill req sounds less irritating. By lvl nine i can have someone in the lightbringers craft it for me, isnt this a major reason we subscribe to guilds? :elan:


... stuff ...

I like your buffs list. hadnt found all of em.
My symbol is already flametouched, and i get Empowered Turning cause the symbol is also Greater, also True and Also Reliquary, DM said it will work, i didnt touch the topic afterwards.
I see ppl already explained why the Rod is the highest priority on Turning optimization so that's cool.

DM rulled that all turning specs will apply to Greater Turning as well, so i can literally optimize turning and use it with Greater turning and all the other turning pools can be DMM'ed.


Here's my list of items you can buy that will help you out with your turning attempts: ...
It sounds like that's how your DM is ruling it too, so I approve.

That's a nice list thanks.
Also, that's how the Sage said temp Cha buffs and turn attempts/day work. I explained it to my DM and she agreed :smallcool: