Hunter's Mark and Hex fix: Make them cantrips

[Talij]

Both Hunter's Mark and Hex have been made class exclusive in the new UAs and tweaked to only apply once a turn. The damage calculations work out to be about the same with the new version... as long as you up cast them to the highest level slot available. It also seems like WotC is pushing both spells to be core features of the classes, but right now they feel like traps.

The latest UA gives the ranger a bunch of free castings so you should never need to spend a first level slot to cast it. If they are going that route, why not go all the way and make them cantrips?

HUNTER’S MARK
Cantrip Divination Spell (Ranger)
Casting Time: Bonus Action
Range: 90 feet
Components: V
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour

You choose one creature you can see within range and magically mark it as your quarry. Until the spell ends, you deal an extra 1d6 Force damage to the target the first time you hit it with an attack roll on any turn. You also have Advantage on any Wisdom (Perception or Survival) check you make to find it.

Cantrip Upgrade. The spell deals extra damage when you reach higher Ranger levels: at level 9 the extra damage increases to 2d6 and at level 17 the extra damage increases to 3d6.



You can remove the moving to another target clauses as you can just cast again on the new target. I also dropped the duration extension as it's no longer useful other than for tracking and 24 hour tracking seems too good for a cantrip. Hex could get a similar treatment.

This would prevent full casters from dipping into these classes and getting more benefits sooner than straight classes. I'd still argue both classes have better things to concentrate on at mid to high levels, but at least it doesn't waste your spell slots too. It would also make dropping concentration significantly less punishing than losing a 5th level slot as a melee ranger/warlock when you inevitably get hit. You still have to recast it, so no other bonus action or leveled spells that turn and concentration prevents stacking with other buffs.

Would these be too strong as cantrips or do you think this seems like a viable fix? I defer to those better at damage calculations.

[Unoriginal]

Both Hunter's Mark and Hex have been made class exclusive in the new UAs and tweaked to only apply once a turn. The damage calculations work out to be about the same with the new version... as long as you up cast them to the highest level slot available. It also seems like WotC is pushing both spells to be core features of the classes, but right now they feel like traps.

The latest UA gives the ranger a bunch of free castings so you should never need to spend a first level slot to cast it. If they are going that route, why not go all the way and make them cantrips?

HUNTER’S MARK
Cantrip Divination Spell (Ranger)
Casting Time: Bonus Action
Range: 90 feet
Components: V
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour

You choose one creature you can see within range and magically mark it as your quarry. Until the spell ends, you deal an extra 1d6 Force damage to the target the first time you hit it with an attack roll on any turn. You also have Advantage on any Wisdom (Perception or Survival) check you make to find it.

Cantrip Upgrade. The spell deals extra damage when you reach higher Ranger levels: at level 9 the extra damage increases to 2d6 and at level 17 the extra damage increases to 3d6.



You can remove the moving to another target clauses as you can just cast again on the new target. I also dropped the duration extension as it's no longer useful other than for tracking and 24 hour tracking seems too good for a cantrip. Hex could get a similar treatment.

This would prevent full casters from dipping into these classes and getting more benefits sooner than straight classes. I'd still argue both classes have better things to concentrate on at mid to high levels, but at least it doesn't waste your spell slots too. It would also make dropping concentration significantly less punishing than losing a 5th level slot as a melee ranger/warlock when you inevitably get hit. You still have to recast it, so no other bonus action or leveled spells that turn and concentration prevents stacking with other buffs.

Would these be too strong as cantrips or do you think this seems like a viable fix? I defer to those better at damage calculations.

Being able to cast those spells at will is not the last thing those classes need, but it's pretty close to the last.

[tKUUNK]

Yeah I like your train of thought on this. Makes sense as a cantrip.

I'm still wondering why the decision to make these spells trigger on only one hit per turn. Why the fear of allowing melee characters to do more damage with multiple attacks? I used to think Hunter's Mark would be great for a monk (from a feat or dip), but then again, you would give up a BA to cast it or switch targets....and for monks, a BA is often worth two attacks. So, not exactly power gaming.

A spell that does extra damage on a single attack feels more suited to classes like clerics and rogues. Stack it with SA or divine strikes.

But anyway, yeah making it a cantrip is a reasonable (smart, even) home brew.

[Amnestic]

It wouldn't surprise me if they didn't want to make it a cantrip due to the unusual scaling. Right now the binary is non-scaling (eg. Prestidigitation) or scaling (1,5,11,17). Hunter's Mark/Hex would presumably get their own 'special' scaling, and though I personally don't have a problem with that, it might be something they had in mind when they were reworking them. Giving it a bunch of free casts may have been the 'compromise'.

[Saelethil]

My concern with making it a cantrip is that a 1 level dip and straight Ranger gain the same benefit from it.
I think my preference would be for the free casting to scale with Ranger level.
Better yet would be for the free castings to scale with Ranger level and for Hunter’s Mark to increase by 1d6/spell level(maximum of 4/5d6.

[JonBeowulf]

Making HM a cantrip means Vengeance Pallys won't get it at level 3. Therefore I cannot support this.

[Saelethil]

Making HM a cantrip means Vengeance Pallys won't get it at level 3. Therefore I cannot support this.

I always thought Hex was more thematic anyway.

[JonBeowulf]

I always thought Hex was more thematic anyway.

I'll take HM every time.
"He thinks he got away but no, I let him go. I will find him, and when I do, I will destroy him and everyone around him."

[Saelethil]

I'll take HM every time.
"He thinks he got away but no, I let him go. I will find him, and when I do, I will destroy him and everyone around him."

Fair enough, I guess it comes down to preference.

[JonBeowulf]

I'm not hating on Hex. I like teaming up with Warlocks who throw that around.

[Boverk]

Making HM a cantrip means Vengeance Pallys won't get it at level 3. Therefore I cannot support this.

Vengeance Paladin's have already lost it in the 6th UA. They got compelled duel instead.

[Pex]

Making HM a cantrip means Vengeance Pallys won't get it at level 3. Therefore I cannot support this.

In 5.5E, for now, Vengeance Paladins don't get Hunter's Mark anyway, so it won't matter.

[CTurbo]

I already wish that HM was NOT a spell at all, but a Ranger specific feature like Hunter's Quarry was in 4e. I especially hate the it's a concentration spell. I'd be much happier if they removed the concentration aspect of it as opposed to making it a cantrip. Maybe it could be con free only for Rangers....

[Talij]

My concern with making it a cantrip is that a 1 level dip and straight Ranger gain the same benefit from it.
I think my preference would be for the free casting to scale with Ranger level.
Better yet would be for the free castings to scale with Ranger level and for Hunter’s Mark to increase by 1d6/spell level(maximum of 4/5d6.
I had it scale purely on class level like the did for eldritch blast in the last UA, so dips wouldn't get the scaling.


I already wish that HM was NOT a spell at all, but a Ranger specific feature like Hunter's Quarry was in 4e. I especially hate the it's a concentration spell. I'd be much happier if they removed the concentration aspect of it as opposed to making it a cantrip. Maybe it could be con free only for Rangers....
They said in the latest UA that they added concentration back because it was too powerful in play test without it. I'd be fine with both just being class features instead of spells too, but they are currently tending to make everything spells at this point anyway

[Saelethil]

I had it scale purely on class level like the did for eldritch blast in the last UA, so dips wouldn't get the scaling.

Ah, missed that. Still not used to cantrips that scale with class level instead of character level. In that case, I don’t think it would be a bad idea.

[Leon]

No. Its a good but situational spell, no need for it to be "on tap"

Having free castings of it means your less worried about having to drop it for another spell and using up your limited slots on it. And if you do spend slots on it you can make it more potent.

[Zhorn]

If they were being removed from spell slots; I'd be more in favour of them being moved to being 100% class features instead of spells/cantrips.

"but what about other specific subclasses accessing it?"

Fighting styles and extra attack also exist as class features multiple classes get access to. Didn't need those to be spells.
If there's a big concern of printing space and not wanting to write it into the book multiple times, just do it once outside the class section like they've done for feats.
Features section; class/subclass progression gives access to them; written in a small alphabetical list afterwards.
Multiclassing; if a feature has a scaling value for it (ie: "your levels in this class") and you get it from two or more different sources -> add them as though it's a combined total of a single source (might even be a solution for the caster vs martial disparity where multiclass casters can still progress spell slots while martials didn't have an equivalent).

[JonBeowulf]

Vengeance Paladin's have already lost it in the 6th UA. They got compelled duel instead.


In 5.5E, for now, Vengeance Paladins don't get Hunter's Mark anyway, so it won't matter.

A perfect example of why I'm staying with "everything published before Tasha's".

[KorvinStarmast]

Being able to cast those spells at will is not the last thing those classes need, but it's pretty close to the last. I don't see a need to fix what isn't broken.

Making HM a cantrip means Vengeance Pallys won't get it at level 3. Therefore I cannot support this. Concur. Vengeance paladin is a good choice as is.

I'll take HM every time.
"He thinks he got away but no, I let him go. I will find him, and when I do, I will destroy him and everyone around him." :smallbiggrin: Yep.

Vengeance Paladin's have already lost it in the 6th UA. They got compelled duel instead. Which is a terrible choice.

[Witty Username]

So, I see three versions of this:
Warlock - UA reverted to short rest casting (my personal preference)
Warlock- half caster
Ranger - half-caster

For short Warlock, this would be a significant increase in power due to hex not costing slots for full power.

For UA warlock, I could see the feel bad at high levels, but like short Warlock, hopefully you have better things to do with high level spell slots.

For Ranger, this would simply be a significant increase in power, having additional castings for Hunter's mark is already good, and with only 2 attacks base the damage decrease is pretty insignificant for most builds. This change would be a second boost on top of that.

For Warlock, short rest version works fine with modified hex.
For Ranger, it is already a boost.

For UA warlock, sure past 11th level, but for 10 and earlier free castings is probably still a boost.