A vibe check for a Rogue subclass

[Witty Username]

I have personally found that their are some gaps in Rogue for archetypes I like from 3.5 and as a character generally that is about exploiting skills during combat.

This one is going for something like the Thug variant fighter of 3.5, but from the other direction. A rogue that is more scrappy than the norm but is still about generating advantage over opponents using their Expertise. Here is what I have so far:


Marauder (Rogue subclass)
3rd- Bonus Proficiencies
Proficiencies in Athletics, Medium Armor, Martial Weapons, and Shields

3rd- Savage Guile
You may apply add sneak attack to melee weapons without the Finesse property, provided they do not have the Two-handed, Heavy, or Special properties. Additionally, as a bonus action, you may attempt to grapple or shove a creature within your reach.

9th- Extra Attack
You can attack twice instead of once, whenever you take the attack action on your turn. Additionally, when you take the attack action, you may apply sneak attack twice per turn instead of only once.

13th – Raider’s Might
You have proficiency in Constitution saving throws, and your movement speed is doubled while you are grappling another creature.

17th – Mastery of Pillaging
When you hit a creature with an attack, if the enemies, movement speed has been reduced to 0, is under the prone condition, or you have hit them with an attack previously this round, the hit is a critical hit.

What is on track and off base? Are there things missing that this subclass should be able to do but can't? Thank you for your time.

[JNAProductions]

I have personally found that their are some gaps in Rogue for archetypes I like from 3.5 and as a character generally that is about exploiting skills during combat.

This one is going for something like the Thug variant fighter of 3.5, but from the other direction. A rogue that is more scrappy than the norm but is still about generating advantage over opponents using their Expertise. Here is what I have so far:


Marauder (Rogue subclass)
3rd- Bonus Proficiencies
Proficiencies in Athletics, Medium Armor, Martial Weapons, and Shields

3rd- Savage Guile
You may apply add sneak attack to melee weapons without the Finesse property, provided they do not have the Two-handed, Heavy, or Special properties. Additionally, as a bonus action, you may attempt to grapple or shove a creature within your reach.

9th- Extra Attack
You can attack twice instead of once, whenever you take the attack action on your turn. Additionally, when you take the attack action, you may apply sneak attack twice per turn instead of only once.

13th – Raider’s Might
You have proficiency in Constitution saving throws, and your movement speed is doubled while you are grappling another creature.

17th – Mastery of Pillaging
When you hit a creature with an attack, if the enemies, movement speed has been reduced to 0, is under the prone condition, or you have hit them with an attack previously this round, the hit is a critical hit.

What is on track and off base? Are there things missing that this subclass should be able to do but can't? Thank you for your time.

Two things to mention-one minor issue, one major.

Minor issue: Raider's Might works even when grappling a Tiny creature, where your speed is not normally reduced. I'd simply change it to "Your speed is not reduced when grappling a target within one size of yourself."

Major issue: Damage output. At level 9, you're doing two attacks of 6d6+5 damage each, assuming a Dex of 20 and a mere d6 base damage weapon. That's 52 damage if both land.
Compare to a Fighter-two attacks of 2d6+5, for 24 total damage. They can have GWM, for 2d6+15, raising them to 42 damage at way less accuracy.

And Mastery of Pillaging makes it absolutely insane. With +17 to Athletics (if you max Strength and take Expertise), Reliable Talent, and a BA Grapple/Prone, you'll very reliably meet the conditions. So you're looking at 20d6+5 damage per attack. That's 150 damage, if both land.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Level 9 feature is on nitrous and needs to be brought down to something street legal. Reroll sneak attack damage and take better result seems appropriate, or convert a # of 1s on sneak attack equal to Str bonus into 6's.

Level 17 could maybe be # of times per day equal to proficiency or dex bonus convert a normal hit to a crit.

Here's a link to a Thug (https://www.dndbeyond.com/subclasses/1178625-the-thug)type rogue I wrote for inspiration.

[MrStabby]

I have personally found that their are some gaps in Rogue for archetypes I like from 3.5 and as a character generally that is about exploiting skills during combat.

This one is going for something like the Thug variant fighter of 3.5, but from the other direction. A rogue that is more scrappy than the norm but is still about generating advantage over opponents using their Expertise. Here is what I have so far:


Marauder (Rogue subclass)
3rd- Bonus Proficiencies
Proficiencies in Athletics, Medium Armor, Martial Weapons, and Shields

3rd- Savage Guile
You may apply add sneak attack to melee weapons without the Finesse property, provided they do not have the Two-handed, Heavy, or Special properties. Additionally, as a bonus action, you may attempt to grapple or shove a creature within your reach.

9th- Extra Attack
You can attack twice instead of once, whenever you take the attack action on your turn. Additionally, when you take the attack action, you may apply sneak attack twice per turn instead of only once.

13th – Raider’s Might
You have proficiency in Constitution saving throws, and your movement speed is doubled while you are grappling another creature.

17th – Mastery of Pillaging
When you hit a creature with an attack, if the enemies, movement speed has been reduced to 0, is under the prone condition, or you have hit them with an attack previously this round, the hit is a critical hit.

What is on track and off base? Are there things missing that this subclass should be able to do but can't? Thank you for your time.

A few things jump out:

1) Where are the non-combat options? Maybe an option to use strength to intimidate or to do double damage to objects or something?

2) Extra attack. Whut?! Not just extra attack but extra attack with sneak damage as well? This isn't just a bit overpowered, its a LOT overpowered. Given the ease with which you can be getting avantage, this is insane.

3) Proficiencies... maybe a bit generous. I would drop shields. You aready have a martial buff and with the other class abilities shield would just be a bit too attractive.

4) Raider's might. Given the name and the class I would have thought Str saves would be a better fit. It would also be more in keeping with the power level we should expect.

5) Mastery of Pillaging. Too good. Even if you removed extra attack, this is still very strong. 18d6 sneak attack damage per hit plus the usual weapon damage is a lot. It isn't like its asking you to do something that hard, that has a costly downside or is likely to fail. You were probably looking to shove or grapple or even two-weapon-fight anyway.

A typical rogue gets additional ways to sneak attack from a subclass - maybe allowing sneak attacks on speed 0 creatures could work, so you can grapple just fine and then cosh them. You might want to also diversify some of the higher level abilities - you will start to see enemies that can't be grappled or proned at higher levels and you would still like the subclass to have some tools to use.

[Witty Username]

Thank you for the feedback, as usual as soon as I put out a thread I get busy.

Quick things,
To make sure it is known,

Non-combat features were a low priority for a couple reasons:
1. Its rogue, so non-combat is pretty well covered by the base class
2. Subclass features are at a bit of a premium for rogue, especially level 3 because of that gap between 3 and 9.

That being said, I am probably outright replacing the level 9 feature so I will keep non combat options in line for that.