What happens if you make a Will Save vs Disguise Self?

[Fiery Diamond]

The rules are clear on figments and phantasms: they become translucent outlines if you make your save. But what about glamers that allow saves, such as Disguise Self? It says "a creature that interacts with the glamer gets a Will Save to recognize it as an illusion." But what does that mean, exactly? What happens if you succeed on that Will Save?

1) You know it's an illusion, but it still looks exactly as it did before you made the save. You're just aware that what you see isn't the true appearance of the affected creature.

2) You see the illusion as a translucent overlay on the real appearance, similar to what you would see if you made a save against a figment or phantasm that shared space with a creature.

3) The illusion disappears from your perspective, revealing the true appearance. You know that what you saw before was an illusion, and that it's still there, but you are no longer affected by it.

4) Something else I haven't thought of.

Thoughts?

[Emberlily]

I would say the easiest read would be #1. Figments and Phantasms are effects in the minds of the viewers, and the rules treat them differently than the other kinds of illusion. To disbelieve is for your brain to work around the magic affecting it. But a Glamer changes what's being given off by what it's affecting.

I suppose one could think of a glamer on a subject being the difference between a turned off television screen vs one that's on that has images projecting from it; no matter how much you kno it's just lil LEDs it doesn't mean u stop seeing the image (if you're far enough away that they're not indvidually visible, for the sake of this analogy); you just know it's not actually real people you're seeing in there.

[Chronos]

Quoth Emberlily:

Figments and Phantasms are effects in the minds of the viewers, and the rules treat them differently than the other kinds of illusion.
You have that a bit mixed up. Phantasms and patterns are in the minds of the viewers, but figments and glamers affect the world that your senses perceive. The difference between a figment and a glamer is that a figment creates a completely new image ex nihilo, while a glamer changes the appearance of something else.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Based on what we can infer from the rules i'd go with option 3, but without the knowledge of what it was and if it's still active (because there is no RAW basis for that). The illusion just stops affecting you.

You can certainly make an educated guess that the change was caused by an illusion based on the change in appearance and the fact that you feel it when you succeed on a save, but if you want to know for sure you'll have to use spellcraft, Detect Magic or a similar ability.


A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.

Disbelief

A successful save lets the subject ignore the effect.
The general illusion rules at least heavily imply that illusions that aren't figments or phantasms don't remain as outlines, so option 2 is unlikely.
And at least to me the only way to ignore the effect of a visual illusion is to not see it, which rules out option 1.

[Gruftzwerg]

The rules are clear on figments and phantasms: they become translucent outlines if you make your save. But what about glamers that allow saves, such as Disguise Self? It says "a creature that interacts with the glamer gets a Will Save to recognize it as an illusion." But what does that mean, exactly? What happens if you succeed on that Will Save?

1) You know it's an illusion, but it still looks exactly as it did before you made the save. You're just aware that what you see isn't the true appearance of the affected creature.


Assume you realize that the beautiful young woman is just an illusion because:
- you shake hands and realize that the body shape you see is not the same as the one you feel ((e.g. claws)
- or that the skin feels more fitting to an old rotten witch and ain't soft as you would assume because the woman "looks" young and beautiful.
- maybe you notice that the shadow ain't fitting
- or you smell the rotten flesh of an undead
- the footprints in the mud don't match the shoes the woman is wearing
- ...

But you can't stop seeing the illusion, you just have enough evidence to be sure (remind you that we need interact with the illusion to get the Will save!) that this is not the true form. You would still need something like True Sight to see what is under the illusion.

[Fiery Diamond]

Based on what we can infer from the rules i'd go with option 3, but without the knowledge of what it was and if it's still active (because there is no RAW basis for that). The illusion just stops affecting you.

You can certainly make an educated guess that the change was caused by an illusion based on the change in appearance and the fact that you feel it when you succeed on a save, but if you want to know for sure you'll have to use spellcraft, Detect Magic or a similar ability.



The general illusion rules at least heavily imply that illusions that aren't figments or phantasms don't remain as outlines, so option 2 is unlikely.
And at least to me the only way to ignore the effect of a visual illusion is to not see it, which rules out option 1.

Worth noting is that for Disguise Self, at least, it's not actually "Will Disbelief" like figment and phantasm spells tend to be. There isn't actually a saving throw entry in the section where saving throws usually go. The fact that a saving throw applies at all is buried in the spell text, where it doesn't say anything about not being affected, just that you know it's an illusion if you make a save. Therefore, reasoning from the Will Disbelief description isn't actually definitive. The more I think about it, especially with two other people championing option 1, the more I feel option 1 is the most likely.

[Jay R]

My vague impression is that it's like noticing the Hollywood make-up on an actor. Suppose Orlando Bloom came to a convention as Legolas. You make your Will save, and you can see the join where the ears go on. You still see the Legolas ears and hair, but you know he's not a real elf.

[Emberlily]

You have that a bit mixed up. Phantasms and patterns are in the minds of the viewers, but figments and glamers affect the world that your senses perceive. The difference between a figment and a glamer is that a figment creates a completely new image ex nihilo, while a glamer changes the appearance of something else.
The wording here is where I got my impression:
"A figment spell creates a false sensation." vs "A glamer spell changes a subject’s sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear." A sensation is something within the viewer's mind, whereas the subject's sensory qualities are located in/around the thing being perceived. But I am noticing now that figments aren't actually listed as mind-effecting, so that distinction is not as cut and dry as I had remembered bc it's based on description wording and not listed as mechanically different. But I still think it's solidly outcome #1.

[rel]

I'd rule option 3.

[Duke of Urrel]

The rules are clear on figments and phantasms: they become translucent outlines if you make your save. But what about glamers that allow saves, such as Disguise Self? It says "a creature that interacts with the glamer gets a Will Save to recognize it as an illusion." But what does that mean, exactly? What happens if you succeed on that Will Save?

1) You know it's an illusion, but it still looks exactly as it did before you made the save. You're just aware that what you see isn't the true appearance of the affected creature.

2) You see the illusion as a translucent overlay on the real appearance, similar to what you would see if you made a save against a figment or phantasm that shared space with a creature.

3) The illusion disappears from your perspective, revealing the true appearance. You know that what you saw before was an illusion, and that it's still there, but you are no longer affected by it.

4) Something else I haven't thought of.

Thoughts?


Based on what we can infer from the rules i'd go with option 3...


I'd rule option 3.

I have my own house rules for Glamer effects such as the Disguise Self spell. Basically, I accept Option Three, but I add on extra rule of my own.

If you disbelieve an illusory disguise of the Glamer subschool, I allow you either to see or not to see the illusion, as you choose. In other words, when you disbelieve a Glamer, I allow you to have complete power over it. This house rule of mine makes it easier to wear your own illusory disguise, because you can choose either to see yourself as you really look or to see yourself as the illusion makes you seem to look. I allow you to change your perception of a disbelieved Glamor at any time, as a special free action that you can take either during your turn or between turns.


Worth noting is that for Disguise Self, at least, it's not actually "Will Disbelief" like figment and phantasm spells tend to be. There isn't actually a saving throw entry in the section where saving throws usually go. The fact that a saving throw applies at all is buried in the spell text, where it doesn't say anything about not being affected, just that you know it's an illusion if you make a save. Therefore, reasoning from the Will Disbelief description isn't actually definitive. The more I think about it, especially with two other people championing option 1, the more I feel option 1 is the most likely.

The absence of a "Will disbelief" line should not trouble us too much. This only means that when you cast the Disguise Self spell upon yourself, you get no Will save against being disguised. (Contrast the statistics block of the Seeming spell, which mentions two kinds of Will saves, because this spell allows the subject to make a Will save to avoid being disguised.)

The descriptive text of the Disguise Self spell makes clear that everybody who interacts with you gets to make a Will save to disbelieve your illusory disguise. When in doubt, it is proper to give greater weight to a spell's descriptive text than to its statistics block.

[ericgrau]

Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)

Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.
First, you often don't get a save in the first place until you "study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion." I also would not consider a cursory glance to be interacting with it, since that would render "study it carefully" pointless. Touching it is likewise usually too much, because that usually means you have proof and auto disbelieve without rolling a save. So I would consider it holding an extended conversation with a disguised person, landing a hit with a melee weapon, closely watching his movements for combat for a round or two of engagement even without a hit, or some other kind of involved interaction.

Now on to a passed save:



Glamer

A glamer spell changes a subject’s sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear.




A creature that interacts with the glamer gets a Will save to recognize it as an illusion.


Since it's a glamer, not a figment or phantasm, and per the spell description, the disguise is still there but the one who passed the save noticed the disguise is an illusion. I would fluff it as noticing inconsistencies in the illusion indicating that it's not real. Maybe some of the caster's real clothing sticks out outside of the disguise, it doesn't respond correctly to wind or debris, or etc. I think this likewise is related to how the DM determines interaction and the how he describes the illusion being broken. So while his opinions may be different from mine above on when a save is rolled (since it's partly subjective), it's all part of a creature figuring out that it is an illusory disguise.