The Why of Prestige?

[quetzalcoatl5]

So I was trying to articulate a reason to homebrew Prestige classes for 5e. However, between the different rules for multiclassing, the nature of subclasses, the broader general power of feats, and just the inherent differences in the systems, it's a harder case to make despite there being potential design space for them. So I wanted to open up for discussion "why, from a design standpoint, do prestige classes exists in 3.5?" And this can include the emergent gameplay elements that come from the more unexpected mixing of classes.

Reasons that standout to me:

Dual Class Progression:
This is honestly probably the easiest one to point to since we start seeing these as early as the Dungeon Master's Guide. Classes like the Arcane Trickster or the Mystic Theurge are easy to explain as a few levels of each and then progress the main features from both.

Emphasize Specific Class Features:
For classes like the First of Raziel that eschews many of the core class features from the logical entry points in order to amplify a particular one or set.

Backdoor Patching of a Delinquent Class:
I'm thinking of the Hellfire Warlock in particular here, but any Prestige class that becomes almost required to properly utilize a base class that fell short of design goals.

Narrative Elements that have Gameplay Mechanics:
From Red Wizards to Bone Knights, there are plenty of setting specific character concepts that are difficult to execute with just a base class.

Introduce Gameplay Elements to a Presumed Entry Point:
Assassins (Rogue), Pious Templars (Fighter), Sublime Chords (Bard), hell even Blackguards (Fallen Paladin) all provide a new suite of abilities to a presumed entry point while advancing specific core ones.

What are other reasons you would design a prestige class in 3.5? What is the best solution to adapting those to 5e? Prestige classes were a hammer in the toolbox of game designers during 3.5 and it made just about every problem look like a nail, but that doesn't mean there isn't a use for a hammer in 5E and I'm wondering which problems still exist that they could solve.

Also, the goal here is not to be dismissive of the concept of prestige classes in 5e. I know that the designers tried to introduce them in UA's a few years back and there was an overwhelmingly negative reaction to it, so this is just me saying that I would like to explore the idea here.

[Inevitability]

If you want an ability to be:

1. Obtainable to characters of many different classes, with a minimum of invested levels needed.
2. Unobtainable at low levels.

Then a prestige class is a pretty elegant way of doing so.

Assassin is a nice example of this: it's not really restricted to any class, but it encourages sneaky and skillful ones, and it gives generically useful abilities (Death Attack, poison use, and potent unique-list spellcasting) that would probably be a bit overpowered to bundle together right at level 1. If you want a game where a character can be mostly a monk, or mostly a rogue, or mostly a ranger, and yet in all three cases have access to some unique assassin magic and Death Attacks, then a PrC is probably the best way to go about it. Similarly so with arcane caster classes whose abilities fit any base class equally well, or melee-based PrCs that really shouldn't be restricted to barbarians or fighters.


Feats could also work, but not all effects easily work as feats, and prestige classes can get a bit more complex with their requirements than feats, in addition to slotting into skill/HD systems that give you even more levers to build with.

[Morphic tide]

I'll add "switching tracks" as a reason for prestige classes. Paladins turning into Blackguards aren't just switching from Good to Evil, they're losing the Paladin's supportive abilities for more strictly offensive value that's significantly in the Rogue niche, including Hide in the skill list. Ur Priest, Divine Crusader, and Chameleon give you (sometimes) strong casting progression, too much so for the first. This is one bit that's much "cleaner" in 5e due to the tiering in class design, as the expectations make it much clearer what a character "should" have and thus what constitutes proper correction.

[Ramza00]

"why, from a design standpoint, do prestige classes exists in 3.5?"

Capitalism, by which I am about to start opinions / beliefs / doxa and it is not a smooth operation.

1) Opinion Prestige Classes were a way to originally create special PCs or special NPCs, like this is a wizard but it is a special wizard of a cult which we are calling a Red Wizard. They can do things like a Wizard but a couple special things like circle magic and thus you have both final game bosses but also module / dungeon bosses which you need to throw every 1 to 4 hours like one of those grinds games such as Dark Souls. Make something feel familiar is one goal of game systems but the opposite feeling you want to trigger to make something feel unfamiliar / special / alien / weird / strange / uncanny other words go here. These ruptures can make things feel impactful.

1b) It was also the 3rd edition with 30 years of licensed history since 1971, especially starting to actually make money in the late 80s and especially the 90s. Each of these dragon books or modules in 1st edition, 2nd edition may have thought of a 2 page magazine copy and then we want to update that stuff to 3rd edition and 3.5 likewise DND has never ever been self contained and imports ideas from other fantasy, sci fi, books, movies, culture etc so they too get 3.5 updates. Let’s make a Conan class and so on, how about Drizzit, the Witcher, Five Rings, etc, etc.

2) Which I think is more impactful but acknowledge these are different goals in the same company. Capitalism. A toy company that sold trading cards bought dnd and then Hasbro like Barrie bought that trading card company in 1999. They think in ways how to sell books, and we need new books every 3 months like we need 4 seasons in a year. Capitalism.

Thus these goals are congruent but also conflict and I limited myself to 3 things even if I think we can go in more depth. Prestige Classes may have been originally something like homebrew guidelines for DMs, but then quickly become like licensed homebrew which no longer feels special and powerful but an add on to your existing classes. One prestige’s out of the main class.

[Quertus]

Because of the "build-a-bear" aspect? That draw of engineering something unique out of a huge array of diverse pieces.

The ability to give crunch, statistical "oomph", to what a character has actually done? (This works better with homebrew classes and feats, or just straight up GM fiat of "sure, Quertus can leverage the fact that he's now Mayor of Mudville to..." than existing / pre-published prestige classes, IME, especially if one values representing "organic growth".)

Because it helps sell more books?

It's right there in the name: Prestige classes. For the prestige of being a Dread Pirate or Eunuch Warlock.

Differentiation. There is power in names. It's good for beginning players to understand that they're playing a "Wizard" or "Fighter", but, to stand out from everyone else, it's nice to be able to have that little bit of flair, and be an Arcane Archer or Incantatrix to differentiate yourself from the pack.

(OK, maybe I should have swapped those last two. :smallamused:)

Balance. By creating ****-tons of completely unbalanced content, the user is able to mix-and-match components in order to create a balanced character. Prestige Classes of vastly different quality add to this ability to self-correct builds to match the needs of the table.

Anyway, there's lots of reasons for the existence of Prestige Classes. Shrug. Not all find Prestige Classes to be the best possible implementation of those desires, but they are good at doing something to scratch an awful lot of itches.

[gijoemike]

Prestige classes RUIN and actively prevent emergent character development.

I have several times on this board used the PClass of hospitalier. The whole idea is a cleric/pally on horseback that goes around and acts as a doctor/healer. The idea is simple but the execution is T R A S H. To meet the entry requirements you must have both mounted combat and ride by attack but also 5 ranks in handle animal. These both play into the idea of a competent mounted fighter, but a cleric who wants to go into this class needs to hit level 7 before entering it. So the cleric must begin assigning skill points and taking exact feats from level 1.

There is no emergent entry for this as a GM cannot wave ALL the requirements.

[Quertus]

Prestige classes RUIN and actively prevent emergent character development.

I have several times on this board used the PClass of hospitalier. The whole idea is a cleric/pally on horseback that goes around and acts as a doctor/healer. The idea is simple but the execution is T R A S H. To meet the entry requirements you must have both mounted combat and ride by attack but also 5 ranks in handle animal. These both play into the idea of a competent mounted fighter, but a cleric who wants to go into this class needs to hit level 7 before entering it. So the cleric must begin assigning skill points and taking exact feats from level 1.

There is no emergent entry for this as a GM cannot wave ALL the requirements.

Well, yes and no. Imagine a 5th level Cleric who discovered the joys of mounted combat. As a Human with 12 Int, they dumped all their 6th & 7th level skill points into Ride and Handle Animal, and even took the Mounted Combat feat. At which point, the GM created the "Hospitalier" class for them.

But, yeah, as written / with pre-written Prestige Classes, if a player went in blind, they might well never qualify for Prestige Classes that were thematically appropriate to their concept. There's too many (generally meaningless) prerequisites, many of which ought to have been shifted to being things the class granted. Point being, one could definitely fiddle with the implementation of Prestige Classes if implementing them in 5e, in order to optimize their value for whatever criteria are most important to the end user(s). As I generally find no (or, actually, negative) value in the jigsaw, build-a-bear aspect of Prestige Classes, I would tend towards dropping prerequisites almost entirely (having the class grant most "prerequisites" instead), and moving more towards a tiered career paths model.

Once upon a daydream, I had the idea of breaking Prestige Classes down into 2 or 3 sub-classes, each only a few levels long. So, for instance, while Knight of the Rose might require Mounted Combat, Rideby Attack, Diehard, etc, Squire of the Rose had approximately no prerequisites, and granted Mounted Combat and Rideby Attack, and had Ride as a class skill. Then the intermediary class required ranks in ride, and the 2 feats Squire of the Rose granted, and granted Diehard and some other prerequisites for the final Prestige Class. Point being, one could enter the Prestige Class chain at any point. It was trivially easy to enter the not-so-prestigious 1st link in the chain, and use that to bootstrap into the later classes; however, if one had a different build / different experiences that met the actual prerequisites, they could just jump straight into the later links. It also brought back the "good old days" of early D&D, with different names for different levels of skill in the same class, and did so in a way that IMO felt a little more "in character" than someone with 1 and 10 levels in a class both identifying themselves the same way. There's a difference between... [looks for good example]... someone who's attended Wistram for a year, a Wistram graduate, and an Archmage of Wistram, dagnabbit! (Or, in case that doesn't make any sense, there's a difference between a Hogwart's 1st year, a Hogwart's Graduate, and a Hogwart's Headmaster, and they shouldn't all identify themselves the same way, dagnabbit!)

[wilphe]

Prestige classes RUIN and actively prevent emergent character development.

There is no emergent entry for this as a GM cannot wave ALL the requirements.

Have you considered Test Based Prerequisites?

[Beni-Kujaku]

The design space for PrC is basically the same as subclasses in 5e. "I want to be something more special than a [insert base class]"
PrC are supposed to be a mechanical and flavorful representation of specializing in one thing so much that you gain powers from it. They also represent a reward of sort for sticking to your guns and persevering in one direction with one goal in mind for your character build.

A lot of PrC would just be subclasses in 5e. However, some PrC actively encourage multiclassing. Mystic Theurge, Fochlucan Lyrist, True Necromancer, Knight of the Sacred Seal... They are supposed to represent the pinnacle of the multiclassing system of 3rd edition. As such, they cannot just be subclasses, and combining both subsystems would feel clunky. I suggest these be made into feats.

Example to convert Theurge classes:

Versatile Spellcaster : If you have levels in several spellcasting classes, you can prepare, learn, scribe, or otherwise gain access to a spell of a level higher than your actual level in the class would give you access, up to a level equal to your level in the class, as long as you have the spell slots for it. For example, a wizard 3/cleric 9 has access to 6th level spell slots. She could scribe in her spellbook and prepare the 3rd level spell Fireball as a wizard spell, or the 6th level spell Heal as a cleric spell, but not the 4th level spell Polymorph, since the level of the spell is higher than her actual wizard level, even if she would have the spell slots to cast it. If she next gains a wizard level, she could now scribe Polymorph and cast it using her cleric slots.

[pabelfly]

Prestige classes RUIN and actively prevent emergent character development.

I have several times on this board used the PClass of hospitalier. The whole idea is a cleric/pally on horseback that goes around and acts as a doctor/healer. The idea is simple but the execution is T R A S H. To meet the entry requirements you must have both mounted combat and ride by attack but also 5 ranks in handle animal. These both play into the idea of a competent mounted fighter, but a cleric who wants to go into this class needs to hit level 7 before entering it. So the cleric must begin assigning skill points and taking exact feats from level 1.

There is no emergent entry for this as a GM cannot wave ALL the requirements.

GIJoeMike has a bit of a point here: prestige classes often require several levels of prior planning, often have prereq feats you don't want, and taking feats you don't want in exchange for more power later feels bad when you first take the feats, doubly so if the feats don't seem connected to the abilities on offer in the prestige class.

And yet... we're all on a forum chatting about a RPG system that last released official content over fifteen years ago, so 3rd Edition got a few things right, and I think one of those things was Prestige Classes.

[Darg]

There is no emergent entry for this as a GM cannot wave ALL the requirements.

DM has rule 0. DM is also expected in the introduction to PRCs to customize or create from scratch your own PRCs to fit the campaign. Entry requirements don't make sense? Want to adapt a racial specific PRC to another race? You are expected to do these things. Is it fair to just offload all the responsibility to make things work on the DM? No. It is how it is however. WotC abused this to make money and they can point the blame at the DM.

[eggynack]

Prestige classes RUIN and actively prevent emergent character development.
This would be a lot more true if emergent build based character development weren't already set on fire by other things. Like, feats are right there with ridiculous chains and similarly fiddly prerequisites. Various classes demand that you lock in choices at first level that influence the structure of your build for the rest of the game. Hell, there's even a variety of build resources that are dependent on your frigging alignment. You wanna cast luminous armor on yourself and thus live out your dream of perfected defense? Better not have gone neutral under the assumption that you'd still get access to all the sanctified spells that way.

So, yeah, prestige classes are not typically that emergent. But I'm not sure that's a thing the game was going for in the first place. 3.5 is a game made for wizards, not fighters, and that means you sit in a giant tower with piles of books before the game even started and plot out a perfected 20 level build. You make sure you're the right race for the substitution levels you're after, that you've allocated your skill points and feats perfectly to get into the prestige class at the right level, and that you even make sure you're from the right region to meet an obscure prerequisite. Is any of this, y'know, good design? Probably not, but I've always kinda dug the vibe.

[Tyndmyr]

There is no emergent entry for this as a GM cannot wave ALL the requirements.

Sure we can. If something makes thematic sense, I cheerfully waive requirements. In addition, things like retraining help. That reduces the lead time from seven levels to...two. But in this case, I'd likely go even further. If it fits the story to be a cleric on a horsey? **** it, retrain all that stuff at level seven, if need be. It isn't going to break the game.

Yeah, the designs are sometimes feat heavy and sorta clunky, but GMs traditionally wield significant power in terms of permitting a bit of flexibility, particularly if it fits the story or the player is new and didn't know what they could do, or what they wanted to do.

[wilphe]

Reasons that standout to me:

Dual Class Progression:
This is honestly probably the easiest one to point to since we start seeing these as early as the Dungeon Master's Guide. Classes like the Arcane Trickster or the Mystic Theurge are easy to explain as a few levels of each and then progress the main features from both.


But it is simply not true that this is an early feature of PRCs

Both Mystic Theuge and Arcane Trickster are in the 3.5 DMG but not the 3.0 one, though I recall that Trickster was in one of the paperback 3.0 splats; and most of the rest of the Theuge classes come along very late in 3.5s lifecycle

[Luccan]

Mechanically, Prestige Classes exist to level gate a suite of abilities, while also ensuring many different types of characters could access them (at least, in theory). The designers thought that being able to teleport from shadow to shadow, hide in an empty room, and summon shadows to fight for you were cool, but thought they needed to be higher level abilities. They also wanted to leave the potential that a multiclass or even non-rogue character could take it, so it couldn't just be a series of Rogue options. Thus, Shadowdancer is a prestige class, which in theory any character could take (even though in practice pretty much only rogues can/will)

I don't think Prestige Classes are suitable for 5e. The baseline of character customization is much less restricted than 3.X*, if less robust, so it's not like how you absolutely have to take a spellsword PrC to build an effective warrior/caster (in fact depending on how far you want to lean into one or the other, you may not even need to multiclass). You would also need to set a fairly consistent power level, with the understanding that taking a PrC could either be seen as pointless or necessary for every character. 3.5 couldn't seem to decide if they were lateral moves, simply offering a different progression than 10 more levels of Fighter, or pure power boosts, like the ones that just give spellcasters full casting progression + better class features, or largely for flavor, like Ruathar. Also while setting specific prestige classes can be helpful to flesh out a concept, a custom 5e style feat could replace the need for an entire PrC like Knight Phantom. And PrCs like Shadowdancer have already been shown they can be adapted to the existing subclass system (Way of Shadows)

I'm critical of the idea of non-class-specific subclasses in 5e, but I think that would be the way to do it. The reason it doesn't work well for 5e (beside the obvious of subclass levels) is because subclasses build on your base class abilities. So you can't just throw Way of Shadows on a Rogue, even if it gained subclass abilities at the same rate as a Monk. And if you changed it enough to work for Rogue and other classes, suddenly you're not using your Ki for your subclass anymore as a Monk.

*very little "well, you could play a Druid/Wizard, but that's actually a bad idea unless you follow these exact steps", niche protection isn't as harsh, less mechanical complexity creates fewer Air Breathing Mermaid abilities

[Akal Saris]

I think PF 1st edition shows the use cases for prestige classes quite well. PF has a huge number of character sub-classes (called archetypes) - I just checked the paladin class and there are 37 variants released by Paizo alone, and some of these variants have their own sub-variants. However, there are also prestige classes in the system. The vast majority of builds ignore prestige classes, because the sub-classes tend to be more mechanically powerful and represent most character concepts just fine on their own. However, the PrCs provide flavor for specific organizations, such as a cult or a knightly order, which is sometimes appealing to players.

Personally, I don't particularly miss prestige classes in 5E, but I also think that 5E's sub-classes are too limited and often gate their most interesting abilities at far too high a level.

[Maat Mons]

From my point of view, prestige classes were an attempt to fix a major design flaw in the multiclassing system.

As a rule, high-level class features are better than low-level class features. When you multiclass, you get the low-level features of a second class instead the higher-level features of your first class. As previously noted, exchanging high-level class features for low-level class features is generally a bad trade. This means multiclassing is generally worse than being single-classed.

Now, there are situations where multiclassing can work out. In 3rd edition, the designers forgot to make the high-level class features of martials better than their low-level class features. This made multiclassing work just as well for martials as staying single classed. Unfortunately, the result was that you perform poorly no matter which option you pick. But I guess that’s a kind of balance.

The problem is especially obvious with something like Cleric 10 / Wizard 10. The existence of Mystic Theurge, and all classes like it, serves as a tacit admission that the baseline multiclassing system doesn’t work.

Prestige classes, if designed correctly, can allow you to multiclass while still getting class features that suit your character level, rather than class features that suit a 1st-level character. In an sense, this is good, but you really should be asking why the multiclassing system needed this patch in the first place. Fix multiclassing, and make prestige classes obsolete.