[DndOne] Monk Proposal

[ZRN]

So one of the big issues with the current playtest monk is an old one: the class gets lots of cool mutually exclusive bonus action abilities but the actual attack action can feel a bit anemic, especially at higher levels.

I propose the same fix for monks that they basically just implemented with rogues via the Nick weapon mastery: Unarmed Fighting should give you two attacks as your action at level 1, upping to 3 at level 5. Get rid of the ability to make a single unarmed attack as a bonus action, BUT keep Flurry of Blows as is at two more attacks.

The end result: you can Abundant Step or Patient Defense or whatever and still get 3 attacks (at level 5+), and now if you blow a ki on flurry you get 5 total attacks. Better burst damage (though still less than other martials), better baseline damage when you're using your bonus action elsewhere.

Haven't done the math but maybe at some higher level you can spend 2 ki for 3 Flurry attacks (6 attacks total) to help burn down that excess ki at high levels.

I hear you asking: what am I supposed to use my bonus action for if I don't want to waste a ki? I propose Patient Defense becomes free. Monks need the added toughness in melee.

An unrelated other suggestion: monks get to pick additional saving throw proficiencies at a few points (maybe with feat levels at 4/8/12) before finally getting Diamond Soul at 14. This would help with the issue of monks' defenses being too back-loaded.

[Melil12]

I don’t think giving monks free dodges would be good for balance.

Free step of the wind with activation for dodge/disengage would be good. You can maneuver around the battle field and play out 3 attacks.

[Monster Manuel]

I like all of these proposals. Monks are meant to do their damage via lots of small, fast attacks. This doesn't unbalance them, I think.

A better way to open up that bonus action might be to give the Monk the ability to use weapon masteries on their unarmed attacks; their fists get the nick mastery (which, I know, doesn't make sense, but maybe "nick" isn't the right term for a second fast attack anyway), which lets them use an existing mechanic to get that second unarmed attack in without using up the bonus action. Having four attacks per round at level 2 IS a bit much, even tied to a limited resource, so to balance this I would limit flurry to 1 extra attack using a bonus action, increasing to 2 and then 3 at higher levels.

I also like making some of the monk's abilities not use ki/discipline. Still require the use of the bonus action to activate, yes, but give them something to do that doesn't pull from their resource pool. Patient Defense is a good choice; monks should be hard to hit. I don't have a strong feeling about this one, and could certainly live without it, but I don't hate it.

The last thing that I see as a commonly perceived weakness of the monk is their MAD ability score requirements. Would it be too much to give them a couple of free ASIs? Not even extra feats, but you could say "at level 5, choose an ability from CON, WIS, or DEX, and add +2, to a maximum of 20. At level 11 choose a second from that list, at 17 choose the last one".

Too much? If you had a standard array monk (custom lineage) starting off with str12 dex14+2 con15 int10 wis13+1 cha8, with the additional attribute boosts, you could get to st12 dex22 con19 int10 wis20 cha8 by level 20, or con18 if you took a +1con half feat instead of an ASI. That's a pretty strong stat block, and in line with the theme of the Monk as having perfected their physical and mental fortitude. This straight-up stat boost would be unique to the Monk, but I think not overpowering, and it side-steps the fact that they are a very MAD class by saying OK, you need a strong Dex, Con AND Wis to be effective? Here, have some boosts to those stats.

[LibraryOgre]

Replace Wisdom to AC with Proficiency Bonus.
Make ki power activation free actions, not bonus actions.
Make "monk" weapons "whatever you are proficient in"... dwarves should have martial arts that involve warhammers.

[Quietus]

Replace Wisdom to AC with Proficiency Bonus.
Make ki power activation free actions, not bonus actions.
Make "monk" weapons "whatever you are proficient in"... dwarves should have martial arts that involve warhammers.

That's largely my fix, though I have always proposed player's choice of dex or wis to power all effects (AC, save Dc's), and it's stat+prof for AC.

Make all ki abilities free to use, but only 1 ki ability per turn. You can flurry, or stun, but not both. Would have to find a way to make patient defense not broken, but otherwise this should work, you always get to do monk things.

And yes, it should absolutely be monk weapons = weapons you're proficient in. Maybe give the "No heavy weapons" limitation, and let the monk use their stat of choice for attack and damage with those weapons. Again you may find some issues with dips here, so that may be something that needs workshopping.

[LibraryOgre]

And yes, it should absolutely be monk weapons = weapons you're proficient in. Maybe give the "No heavy weapons" limitation, and let the monk use their stat of choice for attack and damage with those weapons. Again you may find some issues with dips here, so that may be something that needs workshopping.

See, I wouldn't even do "no heavy weapons", because of Sanosuke. (https://kenshin.fandom.com/wiki/Sagara_Sanosuke) Or, if you prefer, Talhoffer. (https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/fight/hd_fight.htm)

For dipping issues, that's always a problem, because "select a class each level" is a horrible way to do multiclassing, specifically because it creates dipping issues.

[Psyren]

5 attacks at level 5 is way too much, even with Simple Weapons/Unarmed Strikes. Even a Beast Barbarian with a generous reading of Dual Wielder wouldn't get that many.

Piling on more attacks isn't monk's problem; the primary problems are defense, resources and options. These can be fixed by:

- Give 1-2 bonus ASIs between levels 5-9
- Give +Wis to ki at level 2
- Give them a more powerful / more costly use for their ki/disc at level 11+, when they have more than enough points to flurry and SS every combat and use whatever their subclass schtick is.

[Boverk]

My first and most highly emphasized feedback will be to give them a couple more ASI

Then the Wisdom modifier (or proficiency bonus) + Monk level for the amount of discipline points

Then maybe giving them the ability to use Dexterity for jump distance and athletics checks no directly related to how much you can lift.


For the more costly level 11 use of Discipline Points, I'd like to see something like Steel Wind Strike.... zip through a crowd of people doing X martial arts dice of damage to up to Y targets within Z feet of each other, ending within 5 feet of one of them.

[Monster Manuel]

For the more costly level 11 use of Discipline Points, I'd like to see something like Steel Wind Strike.... zip through a crowd of people doing X martial arts dice of damage to up to Y targets within Z feet of each other, ending within 5 feet of one of them.

Second this, but I'd like to see the higher-level, higher-cost actions tied to the subclass, not the baseline core class. Their crazy super-anime move, whatever it might be, should be thematically tied to their subclass...and in a lot of cases in the playtest they did make an attempt to do just that, but the cost is either nothing, or no more than 3 DP. You're getting it at 17th level, make it impressively good, but you have to pay for it.

[Psyren]

I'd love a Qinggong-but-culture-agnostic set of techniques in the form of spells whose effects they can invoke at higher levels by spending X ki points. Stuff like Steel Wind Strike, Destructive Wave, Stoneskin etc.

[Melil12]

Currently as they are designed in one dnd it’s pick MAs or Weapon Masteries. And my argument is we shouldn’t be forced to choose.

What they need to address is Nick/TWF with MAs and how lack luster the other masteries are for monks.

Keep simple weapons that dosnt bother me but give Martial Arts some way to interact with Weapon Masteries.

Give Flex +1 Dmg when used with martial arts 2handed
Make Nick not work when using MAs (twf or MAs you can pick)
Apply Vexing/Sap to unarmed strikes
Give us monk weapons with scaling dice back.

[titi]

Give Flex +1 Dmg when used with martial arts 2handed

They should rework Flex to reward the player for switching between 1-handed and 2-handed, rather than completly removing the versatile effect of your weapon. (idk, give a small effect when 1-handed and another effect when 2-handed or something)

But yeah I agree that they shouldn't tell monk player "you have to choose between using weapon masteries and following the class main fantasy of being an unarmed combattant"

[Melil12]

They should rework Flex to reward the player for switching between 1-handed and 2-handed, rather than completly removing the versatile effect of your weapon. (idk, give a small effect when 1-handed and another effect when 2-handed or something)

But yeah I agree that they shouldn't tell monk player "you have to choose between using weapon masteries and following the class main fantasy of being an unarmed combattant"

Note my proposal would be to place these changes in MAs feature not the individual weapon properties.

So MAs enhance and change how weapon mastery works.

[Kane0]

- can use dex for jumps, shoves and grapples
- level + wis ki
- each ASI is an ASI-and-a-half (+3 or +1 and a feat)
- flurry adds 1 attack to the attack action instead of two as a bonus action (you can still use your martial arts bonus action attack, or something else like step of the wind or patient defence while keeping 2-3 attacks)
- reword martial arts so your BA attack isnt reliant on the attack action (which saves needing ki-fuelled attack and lets you disengage or dash or dodge +punch without spending ki)
- give a fighting style (which im updating to incorporate masteries)

A bit of extra ki, more freedom of bonus actions, a bit more stats to address MADness, and some quality of life

[Quietus]

- can use dex for jumps, shoves and grapples
- level + wis ki
- each ASI is an ASI-and-a-half (+3 or +1 and a feat)
- flurry adds 1 attack to the attack action instead of two as a bonus action (you can still use your martial arts bonus action attack, or something else like step of the wind or patient defence while keeping 2-3 attacks)
- reword martial arts so your BA attack isnt reliant on the attack action (which saves needing ki-fuelled attack and lets you disengage or dash or dodge +punch without spending ki)
- give a fighting style (which im updating to incorporate masteries)

A bit of extra ki, more freedom of bonus actions, a bit more stats to address MADness, and some quality of life

I really like these two bolded bits. Assuming the bold comes through, since I'm on mobile.

[animewatcha]

Over the course of levels. How much good would 10+Dex+Wis+Prof in AC be?

Maxes out at 26 I believe excluding other factors like Ioun stone or legendary manuals.

[Psyren]

Over the course of levels. How much good would 10+Dex+Wis+Prof in AC be?

18 AC at level 1 with no disadvantage on stealth or racial restrictions is a tough sell. And yes, 26 AC at 20 before magic items is also a tough sell.

[Kane0]

Over the course of levels. How much good would 10+Dex+Wis+Prof in AC be?

Maxes out at 26 I believe excluding other factors like Ioun stone or legendary manuals.

Probably a bit too good, especially with bonus action dodges, evasion and deflect arrows/rays on top of that.
Maybe picking highest two of prof, dex and wis? If you're not adjusting for MADness in some other way

[LudicSavant]

Issues I'd like to see addressed:

-Less attribute dependency.

This isn't just a matter of the quantity of stats they need, but how much they need them. Think of it this way: If Paladin was designed like Monk, their AC wouldn't just need 15 Str, it'd need Str+Cha. Their Lay on Hands would scale on Cha. Their smites would scale on Cha. Maybe their Aura would use Str somehow. And so forth.

The upshot of this is that it's more costly than it has any right to be for a Monk to deviate from just advancing attributes to grab a feat or two (whereas a Paladin or Ranger can afford it).

- Less uneven subclasses. We want more Mercy and Shadow, less... most things.

- Monk defensive features are very backloaded. By contrast, they could probably use more offensive scaling in tier 3/4.

- Make sure they get something at level 11.

- More options (both in build and in gameplay) especially out of combat.

- Retain ranged monks and weapon monks, help melee monks get more payoff for being in melee (or give ranged Monks more reasons to opportunistically close). Don't remove reasons to do this like 2024 Monk did. Don't pigeonhole Monks into only being naked punch guys, the archetype should include our wire fu swordfights and Equilibrium gun kata and all.

- Make Stillness of Mind work on stuff that denies your actions already.

- QOL improvements, like removing timing issues from.bonus action features, or replacing Perfect Self with something that doesn't wncourage you to run ki to zero jist to generate more by starting initiative.

- Make their level 1-4 experience better. Heck, there's room to do it, as they're one of the only martials that doesn't get used much for dips.

- Don't just double down on mobility, lack of mobility isn't the problem. Don't just cram in way more defenses (especially if you put them at higher levels); they actually have some good ones, they're just too backloaded.

[Kane0]

- Make Stillness of Mind work on stuff that denies your actions already.


Oh yeah thats gotta be put in. Maybe also have it apply to Confused and Dazed too.

[Amechra]

This isn't just a matter of the quantity of stats they need, but how much they need them. Think of it this way: If Paladin was designed like Monk, their AC wouldn't just need 15 Str, it'd need Str+Cha. Their Lay on Hands would scale on Cha. Their smites would scale on Cha. Maybe their Aura would use Str somehow. And so forth.

The upshot of this is that it's more costly than it has any right to be for a Monk to deviate from just advancing attributes to grab a feat or two (whereas a Paladin or Ranger can afford it).

I mean, the Monk isn't actually that bad. It feels like it, sure, but the only things that every Monk needs Wisdom for are:


Their AC.
Their Ki save DC (which is only used for Stunning Strike on the base Monk.)


Anything else that needs Wisdom comes from their subclass. The only reason why the Monk needs Wisdom more than the Paladin needs Strength is that you have no real alternative to Unarmored Defense as your source of AC, and you need a Wisdom of 16 in order to match the AC you'd get in Studded Leather. I suspect that many of the complaints about the Monk feeling MAD would go away if you made Unarmored Defense 12+Dex+Wis (I've previously suggested 11+Dex+Wis, but that's probably thinking too small).

[titi]

Rather than changing their unarmored defense to work differently from any other unarmored defense, which would be unintuitive and provoke complaint from people who play barbarian and don't feel like monk needs more of a buff than their favorite class, couldn't they just make monk hit die a d10 ? It's a lot simpler and "can take a beating" isn't particularly against the class fantasy

[LudicSavant]

I mean, the Monk isn't actually that bad. It feels like it, sure, but the only things that every Monk needs Wisdom for are:


Their AC.
Their Ki save DC (which is only used for Stunning Strike on the base Monk.)


Their AC, Ki save DC, and various subclass features is already enough to make them more stat-reliant than a Paladin. Heck, there's no other class in the game that relies on having two high stats just to have a competent AC (yes, Barbs have unarmored defense too, but they can just wear medium armor if they don't have the stats).

Monk features have a tendency to rely on both Dexterity and Wisdom for the same activity, while a Paladin generally doesn't. Want a good aura? It's just Cha. Want a good AC? It's just a modest Str (or Dex). Want to smite at full force? It's just Str (or Dex). And then there's plenty of actions like Lay on Hands or much of your spell list that just doesn't depend on a stat at all.

By contrast a Monk tends to use two stats to do a given thing. Want a decent defense? Dex and Wis. Want to Stunning Strike? Dex and Wis. Want to Flurry of Healing and Harm? Dex and Wis.

If anything, the two-stat AC further pushes them towards the ranged playstyle, because a kiting archer with 17 base AC is a lot better off than a melee character with that.


Rather than changing their unarmored defense to work differently from any other unarmored defense, which would be unintuitive and provoke complaint from people who play barbarian and don't feel like monk needs more of a buff than their favorite class, couldn't they just make monk hit die a d10 ? It's a lot simpler and "can take a beating" isn't particularly against the class fantasy

Barb could use some love too (they're mostly fine at tier 1 and early tier 2. After that...)

That said, an HD size bump won't make much of a difference either way, it's just a couple hit points. I'd like to see more substantive adjustments.

[Kane0]

Rather than changing their unarmored defense to work differently from any other unarmored defense, couldn't they just make monk hit die a d10 ?
They could, but I wouldnt say an average +1 hp per level would really fix much.


I mean, the Monk isn't actually that bad. It feels like it, sure, but the only things that every Monk needs Wisdom for are:


Their AC.
Their Ki save DC (which is only used for Stunning Strike on the base Monk.)


Hmm. Let them do monk things in light armor?

[titi]

They could, but I wouldnt say an average +1 hp per level would really fix much.

At level 1, a monk with +2 Con has 10 hp. A goblin (cr 1/4) deals an average of 5 per hit. Meaning on average, this monk gets knocked out in 2 hits by a goblin. Bumb his hit dice to a d10 and he now has 12 hp, meaning he's still able to fight after the second hit.

At level 2, that same monk with his +2 Con has an average of 17 hp (it's 8+5+2*2, right ?). An orc (cr 1/2) deals an average of 9 per hit. Meaning once again the monk goes down in 2 hits. With a hit dice bump, his average hp becomes 20, making him once again survive the second hit.

It might only be 1+(1 per level) hp, but it might means surviving one more round, particularly at low level.

[Kane0]

Here's my current draft:


Level 1:
- Unarmored AC 10 + Dex + Wis
- Unarmed damage (starts at d6, gains die size at cantrip levels)

[When wearing light or no armor]
- Can use Dex for shoves, grapples and jumps
- Can TWF with natural/unarmed strikes
- Reduce fall damage by 5x monk level
- Reaction to reduce ranged attack damage by 1d10 + monk level

Level 2:
- Learn two fighting styles, at the start of each turn choose one to have active (styles listed elsewhere, but there are some great ones trust me)
- Movement speed increase [light or no armor]
- Gain Monk level + Wis mod (min 1) Ki, recovering on short rest
- When you take the attack action, spend 1 ki to make one additional attack
- Can spend 1 ki to bonus action dash or disengage, plus double jump distance that turn
- Can spend 1 ki to bonus action dodge
- If you reduce a ranged attacks damage to 0 with your reaction, you can spend 1 ki to redirect it to another target within 60 feet of you (re-use the original attack and damage rolls)

Level 3:
- Subclass Feature
- When you spend Ki on your action, you can make a bonus action attack


Level 4:
Better-ASI (you get 3 stat points, but they cant all be in the same stat. You can trade 2 points for a feat)

Level 5:
- Extra Attack
- Your unarmed strikes are magical
- Once per turn when you hit with a melee attack you can spend 1 Ki to force the target to make a Wis save or be Dazed until end of your next turn. If they fail the save by 5+ they are instead Stunned until the end of your next turn

Level 6:
- Subclass Feature

Level 7:
- Evasion
- Prof in Wis saves
- As an action remove Charmed, Confused, Dazed or Frightened even if you couldn't normally take an action)

Level 8:
Better-ASI

Level 9:
- Prof in Con saves
- Poison and Disease Resistance
- Can speak to and be understood by anything with a langiage

Level 10:
Subclass feature

Level 11:
- If you start your turn with less Ki than your Prof bonus, gain one Ki

Level 12:
Better-ASI

Level 13:
- Prof in Int and Cha saves
- If you fail a save you can spend 1 Ki to reroll it

Level 14:
Subclass Feature

Level 15:
- Unaffected by age and don't need to sleep, eat or breathe

Level 16:
Better-ASI

Level 17:
- Bonus action spend 4 Ki to turn invisible and gain damage resistance to everything except force for 1 minute, or spend 8 ki to cast astral projection

Level 18:
- Flurry gives you two attacks instead of one
- Bonus action Dodge lasts until end of your next turn
- Bonus action Dash/Disengage gives you both

Level 19:
Better-ASI

Level 20:
- Epic Boon


Hopefully only the required buffs and not overshooting the mark, plus using the previous packet standardized subclass level progression.

[Psyren]

I mean, the Monk isn't actually that bad. It feels like it, sure, but the only things that every Monk needs Wisdom for are:


Their AC.
Their Ki save DC (which is only used for Stunning Strike on the base Monk.)


Anything else that needs Wisdom comes from their subclass. The only reason why the Monk needs Wisdom more than the Paladin needs Strength is that you have no real alternative to Unarmored Defense as your source of AC, and you need a Wisdom of 16 in order to match the AC you'd get in Studded Leather. I suspect that many of the complaints about the Monk feeling MAD would go away if you made Unarmored Defense 12+Dex+Wis (I've previously suggested 11+Dex+Wis, but that's probably thinking too small).

*points at your signature*
:smallsmile:


Their AC, Ki save DC, and various subclass features is already enough to make them more stat-reliant than a Paladin. Heck, there's no other class in the game that relies on having two high stats just to have a competent AC (yes, Barbs have unarmored defense too, but they can just wear medium armor if they don't have the stats).

Monk features have a tendency to rely on both Dexterity and Wisdom for the same activity, while a Paladin generally doesn't. Want a good aura? It's just Cha. Want a good AC? It's just a modest Str (or Dex). Want to smite at full force? It's just Str (or Dex). And then there's plenty of actions like Lay on Hands or much of your spell list that just doesn't depend on a stat at all.

By contrast a Monk tends to use two stats to do a given thing. Want a decent defense? Dex and Wis. Want to Stunning Strike? Dex and Wis. Want to Flurry of Healing and Harm? Dex and Wis.

If anything, the two-stat AC further pushes them towards the ranged playstyle, because a kiting archer with 17 base AC is a lot better off than a melee character with that.

Adding to all this, Paladins have d10 HD and can use shields. Most martial feats also need a martial weapon proficiency, which they have built in and Monks don't (Treantmonk pointed out this was the likely/insidious reason behind removing Shortswords from them). Paladins even get a Fighting Style. It's not even close.



Barb could use some love too (they're mostly fine at tier 1 and early tier 2. After that...)

That said, an HD size bump won't make much of a difference either way, it's just a couple hit points. I'd like to see more substantive adjustments.

I pushed for Barbarians to get some kind of Magic Sunder ability at higher levels. Would give them a unique niche while also being a nod to their AD&D roots.

[elyktsorb]

Can we just let the Monk Unarmored Defense work while using a shield?

[Amnestic]

Can we just let the Monk Unarmored Defense work while using a shield?

I don't think that's a solution, because the monk aesthetic is not a shield wearer, and many may feel pigeonhold to wear one due to their AC issues.

[Quietus]

They could, but I wouldnt say an average +1 hp per level would really fix much.


Hmm. Let them do monk things in light armor?

Or, give them proficiency in light armor, but make it so Martial Arts only turns off if you wear armor that gives you disadvantage on stealth. If you otherwise gain proficiency somewhere and find some mithril armor, go nuts! Or wear a breastplate! It's all good!

I'd still make AC 10+dex or wis+prof while unarmored.

[LudicSavant]

Can we just let the Monk Unarmored Defense work while using a shield?

Not unless we also give them a good reason to play Monks that don't use shields.

[animewatcha]

Slight problem on comparison of ideas. I ask for proficiency which makes it go up to 26 AC and it is a problem. You guys want light armor/shield and it is okay? When light armor or shield can bring AC up to 25 (assuming one of them) without needing attunement AND upon attunement is bound to have any number of additional magical properties that more than make up for 1 AC.

Sounds like my idea of Dex+10+WIS+Prof. is exactly too much on game balance.

[Kane0]

Slight problem on comparison of ideas. I ask for proficiency which makes it go up to 26 AC and it is a problem. You guys want light armor/shield and it is okay? When light armor or shield can bring AC up to 25 (assuming one of them) without needing attunement AND upon attunement is bound to have any number of additional magical properties that more than make up for 1 AC.

Sounds like my idea of Dex+10+WIS+Prof. is exactly too much on game balance.

I was under the impression that the suggestion of being able to use a shield or light armor was as an option instead of unarmored AC, not stacking with the +wis.

[Sindeloke]

I was under the impression that the suggestion of being able to use a shield or light armor was as an option instead of unarmored AC, not stacking with the +wis.

I believe the assumption here is access to magic items, which the monk can never have. +3 studded leather and 20 Dex puts you at 20. Put a +3 shield on that and you hit 25.

[Gignere]

I believe the assumption here is access to magic items, which the monk can never have. +3 studded leather and 20 Dex puts you at 20. Put a +3 shield on that and you hit 25.

Rogues can’t use shields though and Monks can use bracers of defense.

[Quietus]

Rogues can’t use shields though and Monks can use bracers of defense.

Bracers of defense cost a precious attunement slot, +3 armor/shield (which is only a feat away for rogues, or a common multiclass dip proficiency) does not.

[Kane0]

I think i’d rather assume +3 robes and handwraps.

[Saelethil]

I think +Wis to ki, extra ASIs at 6 and 10, and Martial weapons (I’d be fine if they said you could only use Dex for attacks with non heavy weapons) would pretty much get them where I’d want them.

[titi]

Slight problem on comparison of ideas. I ask for proficiency which makes it go up to 26 AC and it is a problem. You guys want light armor/shield and it is okay? When light armor or shield can bring AC up to 25 (assuming one of them) without needing attunement AND upon attunement is bound to have any number of additional magical properties that more than make up for 1 AC.

Sounds like my idea of Dex+10+WIS+Prof. is exactly too much on game balance.

1. Psyren also pointed out that it meant 18 AC with no drawbacks at level 1, which is a MUCH bigger problem.

2. It's 26 AC WITHOUT ANY magic item, meaning you still have full room for other stuff (because no PC has an infinite amount of magic item)

[Melil12]

Monk dosnt need more AC … you can meet all the thresholds for each bump and have options for defense. Though a d10 hit dice would be perfect.

They do need at least 1 more ASI I feel … but I am not sure which feats synergies with monk. Sentinel? Mage slayer? Charger?Crusher/slasher/piercer?
(That is if they allowed monks to qualify for the above feats which currently … they don’t.)

[Saelethil]

Monk dosnt need more AC … you can meet all the thresholds for each bump and have options for defense. Though a d10 hit dice would be perfect.

They do need at least 1 more ASI I feel … but I am not sure which feats synergies with monk. Sentinel? Mage slayer? Charger?Crusher/slasher/piercer?
(That is if they allowed monks to qualify for the above feats which currently … they don’t.)

My bet would be that a lot of Monk players would still be on the race to get 20 Dex and Wis but with extra ASIs at 6 and 10 they should have that covered around 10 or 12. Personally I’d probably grab skill expert, crusher, and some utility feat or tough. Elven accuracy would be a great addition but obviously it narrows your species choices substantially. It really would depend on where you wanted to lean.

[Boverk]

Here's an idea I had today (feel free to tell me if it is silly/unreasonable), but what if monks could spend their movement for something else?

i.e. what if starting at level X, monks could spend 30 ft of movement to take the dodge action? and/or for every Y (maybe 20?) feet of movement you give up, you gain +1 to the next check using your monk DC. Basically, you take some time from your turn to focus your discipline, etc.

Really need your stunning strike to hit? spend a bit of time standing still powering up like Goku with a Spirit Bomb and let them have it!

[Nidgit]

Here's an idea I had today (feel free to tell me if it is silly/unreasonable), but what if monks could spend their movement for something else?

i.e. what if starting at level X, monks could spend 30 ft of movement to take the dodge action? and/or for every Y (maybe 20?) feet of movement you give up, you gain +1 to the next check using your monk DC. Basically, you take some time from your turn to focus your discipline, etc.

Really need your stunning strike to hit? spend a bit of time standing still powering up like Goku with a Spirit Bomb and let them have it!
I really like this! I'm reminded of Frosthaven's Blinkblade class, which has a capstone ability of turning any number of move actions into equivalent attacks. For a class that allows you to stack speed in insane ways, it lets you do some really crazy things.

Two of the key limiting factors on monks' effectiveness is the size of their ki pool and the competition for their bonus action. Their bonus speed is situationally useful since skirmishing causes a distinct drop in damage output. This uses a somewhat wasted resource to alleviate the stress on an overtaxed one.

From a design perspective, I'd probably suggest offering only defensive options early on when monks tend to lack those and then offering more offensive things like additional attacks, disadvantage on the Stunning Strike save, and so on at higher levels when monk damage tends to plateau.

[animewatcha]

1. Psyren also pointed out that it meant 18 AC with no drawbacks at level 1, which is a MUCH bigger problem.


Technically he said no disadvantage on stealth or racial restrictions being a tough sell. level 20 - 26 ac also being a tough sell.

Each class gets a x10 modifier for starting gold except for monk.

so for monk at level 1 for 18 ac. Requires 18 in dex and wisdom after adjustments. Not always room for con in there for the needed hitpoints. Monk is meant to be skirmisher anyway not necessarily a tank. Adjusting for 'pick your stat' and 'beginning feat' being itself having an attribute. Monk needs to get really lucky with starting rolls (around 15-16 in each stat) or significant investment from point-buy. Or even a special starting stat arrangment ( 18, 16, 14, etc. ) We haven't even gotten into Con yet. only a d8 hitdie

Barb unarmored at level 1 for 18 ac. Shield costs 10 gold and adds 2 to ac and it logical to carry and cheap for even starting gold. This reduces stat need after adjustment to being 16 dex and 16 con. Constitution is already there and is natural to invest more later on. d12 hitdie. Meant to be frontliner. Before stat adjustment for starting feat/pick-your-stat is more likely achievement via 14 or so. Whether it is starting rolls, point buy or 'special arrangement. 14 is more forgiving than 15-16.

Other classes, to specifically reach this ac would be 20 dex ( or close to it ) or around this would need shield. cheap for their starting gold ( proficiency in shield would be needed is a different matter and sorcerer and wizard get mage armor which is like shield built in ). Allowing for more freedom on starting rolls ( can allow for 16 for one stat and do ASI at first with pick-your-stat ), point buy, or special stat arrangement ( again the 18, 16, 14, etc. ).

Level 20 ish. Maintaining good con score ( we are getting into area effects and things that do HP damage even on a fail ) while keeping up with maxing Dex and Wis requirement more 'feat' investment/consideration than usual other classes. A little extra AC shouldn't hurt too much while other classes could get comparable to it as well as whatever magic bonuses the +3 armor and +3 shield may have that may or may not requirement attunement (that they were planning to use anyway ).

Now if 5e monks could get the 3.5e version of mettle/improved mettle, I could lean a bit more into not needing 26 ac.

[Boverk]

I really like this!
From a design perspective, I'd probably suggest offering only defensive options early on when monks tend to lack those and then offering more offensive things like additional attacks, disadvantage on the Stunning Strike save, and so on at higher levels when monk damage tends to plateau.

Thanks!

And I agree about having it ramp up/offering more options as monks level.

[Sindeloke]

1. Psyren also pointed out that it meant 18 AC with no drawbacks at level 1, which is a MUCH bigger problem.

Is that a problem?

Generally, I think level 1 is about the worst place to try to gauge anything, but for what it's worth, building for good defensive stats in 2014 dnd, and ignoring accuracy:

Level 1 human fighter, 16/13/14/12/12/12: 18 AC, disadvantage on stealth, 12 hp, +9 total saves w/at least +1 in each, at least +1 on every skill, 9.5 avg dmg per turn
or
Level 1 fighter, 16/13/14/12/12/12: 19 AC, disadvantage on stealth, 12 hp, +9 total saves w/at least +1 in each, at least +1 on every skill, 7.5 avg dmg per turn

or, if your DM allows the completely reasonable "start with gold" or even just "trade my chain mail for a chain shirt which is 25 gp cheaper," and you swap Str and Dex and go with a Dex build, you can completely eliminate the stealth disadvantage without giving up anything.

meanwhile,
Level 1 monk, 11/16/14/10/16/10: 16 AC, no disadv on stealth, 10 hp, +8 total saves incl three with no bonus at all, many skills with no bonus at all, 13 avg dmg per turn.

So it's obvious that just having 18 AC when the game starts doesn't break anything. It's an exercise for the individual whether the monk's [2 fewer HP, worse saves and skills, and 3.5 extra damage] weighs more, less, or the same as the fighter's [stealth disadv] which may or may not exist, depending on DM permission.

[LudicSavant]

Is that a problem?

Not really.

In addition to your handy cross class comparisons, it's worth noting that current Monk can already reach 18 AC or higher with no drawbacks, simply by getting lucky on initial stat rolls.

If anything, making low level defenses more consistently available is probably a good thing. Monks have a weak level 1 as is (it's basically a weaker version of level 1 TWF Fighter).

Monk's design problem with defenses is generally that their defenses are backloaded (they squishy early, chonky bois late). Makin' em a bit chunkier at level 1 ain't gonna break a darn thing. Makin' em chunkier at higher levels is unnecessary.

[ZRN]

5 attacks at level 5 is way too much, even with Simple Weapons/Unarmed Strikes. Even a Beast Barbarian with a generous reading of Dual Wielder wouldn't get that many.

Late to respond on this one but I finally ran some super-preliminary numbers on these.

First, I'm assuming here we revert to starting at d4 unarmed attacks.

Damage-wise, a dual-wielding rogue with weapon mastery at level 5 is basically on par with a level 5 monk doing 4 unarmed attacks per round (currently that means using FoB). A monk using no resources is worse than a rogue. My change would make a monk using resources at level 5 more damaging than a rogue - but still, of course, way worse than a damage-optimized fighter or barbarian.

To my mind, there's some reason in calling monks "warrior group" like fighters and barbarians: what do they bring to the table OTHER than combat support? They're not skill monkeys and they don't have any spells. They even lost a lot of what little utility they got from subclasses in this latest UA draft. So I say let them hit harder (or at least more often).

Another option if this is overkill: make 2 unarmed attacks at level 1 (at 3 at level 5) count as an action, and then let FoB scale up so at level 2 you can spend 1 ki for 1 attack with your bonus action, at level 11(?) you can spend 2 for 2 attacks, at level 17 3 for 3 attacks.

[LudicSavant]

5 attacks at level 5 is way too much, even with Simple Weapons/Unarmed Strikes. Even a Beast Barbarian with a generous reading of Dual Wielder wouldn't get that many.

Why use Dual Wielder, with any reading? Save a feat and use a double scimitar or something.

[titi]

Not really.

In addition to your handy cross class comparisons, it's worth noting that current Monk can already reach 18 AC or higher with no drawbacks, simply by getting lucky on initial stat rolls.

If anything, making low level defenses more consistently available is probably a good thing. Monks have a weak level 1 as is (it's basically a weaker version of level 1 TWF Fighter).

Monk's design problem with defenses is generally that their defenses are backloaded (they squishy early, chonky bois late). Makin' em a bit chunkier at level 1 ain't gonna break a darn thing. Makin' em chunkier at higher levels is unnecessary.

If current monk can reach 18 AC at lvl1 by being lucky on the dice rolls, then a monk that adds prof to his AC would start at 20 AC with the same luck. That's more than what the tanking classes are able to start with. MONK IS NOT A TANKING CLASS.

If you want to make them a bit chunkier at low level, make their hit die a d10, don't give them a +2 AC that's an absurdly strong bonus

[LudicSavant]

If current monk can reach 18 AC at lvl1 by being lucky on the dice rolls, then a monk that adds prof to his AC would start at 20 AC with the same luck. That's more than what the tanking classes are able to start with

The point isn't that the feature lacks problems (it doesn't). It's that being able to get 18 AC at level 1 ain't it.

Now, the ability to grab 22 AC at level 1 simply by rolling well, then scaling to 27 or more (just with a 1-level dip), is an entirely different matter. It's pretty easy to get an impenetrable AC by combining the suggested feature with other ones. Moreover, it doesn't actually lessen the Monk's issue of scaling too much based on their attributes.


MONK IS NOT A TANKING CLASS.

Ah, stereotypes in allcaps.

Monks actually can be tanks. They've got some pretty solid defensive and control features on offer, they're just backloaded, so it depends what level you're playing at. Look up the math for Mercy Monk tanking vs Barbarians, for instance.

[titi]

The point isn't that the feature lacks problems (it doesn't). It's that being able to get 18 AC at level 1 ain't it.



Ah, stereotypes in allcaps.

Monks actually can be tanks. They've got some pretty solid defensive and control features on offer, they're just backloaded, so it depends what level you're playing at. Look up the math for Mercy Monk tanking vs Barbarians, for instance.

My bad, then. I minsunderstood what you meant.

Also "monks aren't a tanking class" does not mean they cannot be tanks. It means they were not made with tanking as a primary goal.

Look at barbarian : at level 1, they have the most hp and the ability to halve most damage they'll take.

Or fighter, with self-heal, the ability to start at 18 AC and at least 2 defensive fighting style.

Monks can be tanks, and probably very good too. But it wasn't their primary design.

[Hael]

Monks can be tanks, and probably very good too. But it wasn't their primary design.

Monks dont really have a primary design. They are pretty good at offense early, then get progressively worse relatively after lvl 5.
They are bad at tanking early, but pretty strong late game.
As a controller, they are bad in the early game, get really good in the mid game, and get progressively worse at the endgame.

The design of the class is really rather strange, as they never really are great at any one role for very long, other than being the guys with great movement speed (which eventually get superceded by mounts).


I am even less sure what they are suppose to be in 1DnD.

[Kwinza]

Here's what I'd do(this uses onednd monk as the base);

Basics - Upgrade HP to D10

Lvl 1 -
Remove the Bonus unarmed strike, it wont be needed.
Unarmored Defense is your choice of Dex+prof or Wis+Prof
Weapon mastery lets you pick a mastery and apply it to your unarmed strikes.

Lvl 2 -
FoB is free, only cost is the bonus action, however to keep it balanced, the number of attacks mirror your attack action. So 1 attack at 1-4 and 2 from 5+
Step of the Wind is also free. Rogues get it for free and monks "should" feel faster than rogues, its their entire thing.
Patient defense is removed. I want monks to "feel" faster than fast, kungfu panda silly fun. So we replace it with "Lightning Reflexes". If an attack hits, as a reaction you may spend 1 Ki point to make a Dex save Vs the attack roll that hit you, if you succeed, the attack instead misses.

Lvl 3 -
Deflect missiles does not use your reaction to catch the arrow, it does to throw it back though.

Lvl 4 -
All good here

Lvl 5 -
Stunning strike is a Wis save. No reason it should be Con when Hold Person is Wis. Oh and remove that stupid limit.

Lvl 6 -
All good here

Lvl 7 -
Heightened Metabolism is Wis times per day. I want it to be functionally permanent, but without the ability to spam it. Wis times per day is perfect for an average adventuring day.

Lvl 8 -
All good here, dead level for most classes other than the feat.

Lvl 9 -
Keep Acrobatic Movement as is.
Add an ability called "Mental Discipline" it's evasion for Wis saves.

Lvl 10 -
Keep Self-restoration, though I'd change the name and make it a free action(no action) Also straight up say that you no longer need to eat or drink, given the wording you'd still die of starvation, you just wouldn't get exhaustion points.

Lvl 11 -
All good here

Lvl 12 -
All good here

Lvl 13 -
All good here

Lvl 14 -
All good here

Lvl 15 -
Improved Step of The Wind replaces Perfect Discipline. You gain a fly speed equal to your speed. We've all watched DBZ, we all want this, it's not even remotely op as its emulating a 3rd lvl spell.

Lvl 16 -
All good here

Lvl 17 -
All good here

Lvl 18 -
Change Superior Defense to Martial Mastery, you can simulate the haste and etherealness spells for 5 Ki points, whilst hasted your movement is so fast that you become almost imperceptible to a normal eye, you appear to phase through objects and objects through you. You maintain the effect for 1 minute or until you fall unconscious.

Lvl 19 -
All good here

Lvl 20 -
Replace Defy Death with Perfect self every stat increases by +4, this can go above 20 but not above 30. (this is my least liked feature but I can't think of anything else, all capstones are a bit meh if you ask me)

I'd love to hear what you all think.

[Psyren]

Why use Dual Wielder, with any reading? Save a feat and use a double scimitar or something.

I was assuming a Beast Barb who wanted to use their claws, plus DBS is setting-specific I believe.


I think +Wis to ki, extra ASIs at 6 and 10, and Martial weapons (I’d be fine if they said you could only use Dex for attacks with non heavy weapons) would pretty much get them where I’d want them.

I'd be fine with this even without the martial weapons, so long a you could apply a Mastery or two to your fists eventually. The subclasses do need another pass as well.

[LudicSavant]

I was assuming a Beast Barb who wanted to use their claws,
So was I. You can use both in the same turn.

[Psyren]

So was I. You can use both in the same turn.

I meant exclusively. Also, the other thing.

[ZRN]

I meant exclusively. Also, the other thing.

I mean, if you want five attacks you could also just play the current UA monk (level 5+) with two daggers and Flurry of Blows. My proposed changes just let you do that with unarmed strikes.

[Saelethil]

I'd be fine with this even without the martial weapons, so long a you could apply a Mastery or two to your fists eventually. The subclasses do need another pass as well.

That would be fine with me as long as they went back to martial arts die applying to their weapons as well.

[Psyren]

I mean, if you want five attacks you could also just play the current UA monk (level 5+) with two daggers and Flurry of Blows. My proposed changes just let you do that with unarmed strikes.

Your proposal in the opening post would be like giving them TWF + Dual Wielder for free at level 5, because they'd effectively be dual-wielding d8 weapons and getting Dex to damage added to all 5 attacks. And the rapiers in question would eventually become finessable light greataxes. I don't mind boosting monk, but I don't think this is the best way.

The current playtest monk can get this many attacks with a combination of daggers and unarmed strikes at level 5, sure - but the former are d4 weapons, and only 4/5 of the attacks (i.e. the main hand dagger + flurry) would get dex to damage as written.

I think 4 attacks at 5 is fine; they just need more ki and stronger defenses, or at least the ability to increase their defense without delaying/sacrificing offense or vice-versa.

[ZRN]

Your proposal in the opening post would be like giving them TWF + Dual Wielder for free at level 5, because they'd effectively be dual-wielding d8 weapons and getting Dex to damage added to all 5 attacks. And the rapiers in question would eventually become finessable light greataxes. I don't mind boosting monk, but I don't think this is the best way.

The current playtest monk can get this many attacks with a combination of daggers and unarmed strikes at level 5, sure - but the former are d4 weapons, and only 4/5 of the attacks (i.e. the main hand dagger + flurry) would get dex to damage as written.

I think 4 attacks at 5 is fine; they just need more ki and stronger defenses, or at least the ability to increase their defense without delaying/sacrificing offense or vice-versa.

1. I'd probably revert to the original unarmed damage dice (starting at d4).

2. Every other martial class gets better damage scaling. Do we say a ranger is dual-wielding greatswords because Hunter's Mark makes each attack 2d6+5? When you do the math on actual damage output, monks are behind everyone and an extra unarmed attack doesn't even get them close to e.g. fighters and barbarians.

[Amechra]

When you do the math on actual damage output, monks are behind everyone and an extra unarmed attack doesn't even get them close to e.g. fighters and barbarians.

Something to bear in mind: most of the feats and things that made martial damage really high in 5e aren't going to be a thing in DONE. Heck, the proposed DONE Monk actually keeps really close pace with a GWM-using Greataxe-using DONE Barbarian. Like, we're talking "roughly 1 point of expected damage away from each-other from 1st to 20th" here¹.

One of the recurring issues with how this forum analyzes stuff is that we mostly look at classes in terms of what you'd get out of them when hard optimized, which isn't what the dev team is really interested in. This becomes especially problematic when we look at the Monk, because the Monk's issue isn't that it has a bad baseline², it's that it has a low optimization ceiling. And the optimization ceiling for martial characters is being dragged down in general, so...

¹ I didn't factor in the extra damage from Cleave, because splash damage.
² The only real problem with the Monk's baseline is that their ability score assignment is really inflexible. This is pretty much just a general 5e problem, though.

[ZRN]

Something to bear in mind: most of the feats and things that made martial damage really high in 5e aren't going to be a thing in DONE. Heck, the proposed DONE Monk actually keeps really close pace with a GWM-using Greataxe-using DONE Barbarian. Like, we're talking "roughly 1 point of expected damage away from each-other from 1st to 20th" here¹.

One of the recurring issues with how this forum analyzes stuff is that we mostly look at classes in terms of what you'd get out of them when hard optimized, which isn't what the dev team is really interested in. This becomes especially problematic when we look at the Monk, because the Monk's issue isn't that it has a bad baseline², it's that it has a low optimization ceiling. And the optimization ceiling for martial characters is being dragged down in general, so...

¹ I didn't factor in the extra damage from Cleave, because splash damage.
² The only real problem with the Monk's baseline is that their ability score assignment is really inflexible. This is pretty much just a general 5e problem, though.

Citation needed my friend. When I crunch the numbers I'm getting way higher numbers for e.g. fighters and barbarians, just taking obvious feats like Greatweapon Master.

[Amechra]

Citation needed my friend. When I crunch the numbers I'm getting way higher numbers for e.g. fighters and barbarians, just taking obvious feats like Greatweapon Master.

The important question: which version of GWM are you using?

The 5e version, with the -5/+10? Or the DONE version, which is +prof to a single attack made as part of the attack action?

[Sorinth]

One path forward with regards to weapon mastery is to allow your unarmed strikes to gain the weapon mastery of whichever weapon you are wielding (Must have proficiency in it). So if you are wielding say a Club then your unarmed strikes also have the Slow mastery. There would have to be some word massaging to get Nick to work as desired since I don't believe Unarmed Strikes are considered Light and we'd want to still add mod to damage. But the gist of it would be there and your weapon selection would matter and differentiate monks amongst themselves even when mostly making unarmed strikes.

[ZRN]

The important question: which version of GWM are you using?

The 5e version, with the -5/+10? Or the DONE version, which is +prof to a single attack made as part of the attack action?

Playtest version.

Just as an example, a level 11 champion fighter with a greatsword and GWM (and no other damage-relevant feats or non-class abilities) does about 44 DPR against AC 15, while a monk does about 32.6 WITH Flurry (in the current version). (An optimized fighter with a better subclass does a lot more.) My change would bring the monk up to about 40.75 with flurry.

[titi]

Playtest version.

Just as an example, a level 11 champion fighter with a greatsword and GWM (and no other damage-relevant feats or non-class abilities) does about 44 DPR against AC 15, while a monk does about 32.6 WITH Flurry (in the current version). (An optimized fighter with a better subclass does a lot more.) My change would bring the monk up to about 40.75 with flurry.

What monk ? A mercy monk ? An element monk ? A subclassless monk ? You specified 'champion fighter' so you must have taken subclasses into account

[ZRN]

What monk ? A mercy monk ? An element monk ? A subclassless monk ? You specified 'champion fighter' so you must have taken subclasses into account

None of the playtest ones meaningfully impact single-target DPR at this level (except mercy), so take your pick. I guess if you use the Topple option with Open Hand monk your DRP on the last flurry attack might be a little higher from advantage (if the first flurry trip succeeds). And if you're able to keep the target in darkness you get advantage.

[titi]

None of the playtest ones meaningfully impact single-target DPR at this level (except mercy), so take your pick. I guess if you use the Topple option with Open Hand monk your DRP on the last flurry attack might be a little higher from advantage (if the first flurry trip succeeds). And if you're able to keep the target in darkness you get advantage.

So none of the 4 subclasses meaningfully impact single-target DPR except 3 of them do ?

[LudicSavant]

So none of the 4 subclasses meaningfully impact single-target DPR except 3 of them do ?

The 2024 versions of the subclasses have less of an effect on the class's damage than the 2014 versions of said subclasses. Even Four Elements!

Like, there's an effect, it's just not much. The biggest one is probably the Shadow Monk's see-through Darkness, but... I mean... it's still less than what an optimized shadow gunk could do with the 2014 rules.

The main thing that the 2024 Monk has is that they've got a lot more ki, but... they no longer have ki sink abilities, so there's not really much to do with it. By the time you hit tier 3 you can casually afford 2 ki per round every round, and it's rare to use more than that for any of the 2024 Monks.

[ZRN]

So none of the 4 subclasses meaningfully impact single-target DPR except 3 of them do ?

Yes, as a shadow monk, if you give up an action to cast Darkness, and you succeed in keeping enemies in that darkness (without just pissing off all your teammates), your subsequent rounds will have slightly higher DPR because you'll get advantage. And as an open hand monk, if you consistently use the trip option you'll probably see a maybe... 5% improvement in DPR? If that? None of those will get you close to the most straightforward fighter build.

[Amechra]

Two things:



Mea culpa! It turns out that you forget important things when you crunch numbers at 3am, like how GWM gives you a BA attack when you crit. :p You're right about the Monk falling behind a GWM Barbarian and/or Fighter.
... but I don't think that actually disproves my argument (because, lo and behold, I was also falling into a build trap!)


Let me explain (since otherwise this is going to look like goal-post shifting of the highest degree)... why is our standard for comparison here the GWM Fighter (a purely damage-focused build) and not, say, a S&B Fighter (which is less focused on damage, but has other fun stuff it can pull off like the BA push from Shield Master or the Interception fighting style)? Why is the idea that the Monk (or Rogue)'s baseline needs to be comparable to a Fighter build focused on pushing out as much damage as possible?

And if the answer to that is that the damage-focused Fighter build is the only one worth playing... isn't that a bigger problem?

...

For fun, I drew up a chart comparing the damage dealt by a few D&DONE classes to a baseline of a S&B Champion that took Interception at 1st and Dueling at 6th (AC is 12+Tier, because that's easy to toss into a spreadsheet and kinda-sorta is how the average monster's AC scales anyways):



The S&B Fighter itself, to set a baseline.
A greatsword-using GWM Fighter that grabbed GWF at 1st and GWM at 4th.
A Way of the Elements Monk that just punches things. Damage from 1st to 10th assumes that you're just using Martial Arts, while damage from 11th onward assumes Flurry of Blows. Looking at the chart should make why I made that choice pretty obvious.
A Beast Master Ranger shooting stuff with a longbow. We're assuming that they're using Beast of the Air (for the Flyby Helps and Attacks) every round, and that they're only using the "free" Hunter's Mark from Favored Enemy.
A dual-wielding Swashbuckler without advantage — a rapier in one hand, a dagger in the other (for Nick).
A S&B Devotion Paladin casting a 1st level Divine Smite. The first version is without Sacred Weapon, the second one is with Sacred Weapon. I assumed that you'd prioritize Charisma over Strength, and started with a Strength of 15 for fun (and profit!).


https://i.imgur.com/zcJomof.png

Make of this what you will.

[Kane0]

Ooh, can you add in a rogue?

[Ganryu]

I keep reading this thread title as "A modest proposal", and getting concerned

[Amechra]

Ooh, can you add in a rogue?

That's what "swash" is.

[ZRN]

Let me explain (since otherwise this is going to look like goal-post shifting of the highest degree)... why is our standard for comparison here the GWM Fighter (a purely damage-focused build) and not, say, a S&B Fighter (which is less focused on damage, but has other fun stuff it can pull off like the BA push from Shield Master or the Interception fighting style)? Why is the idea that the Monk (or Rogue)'s baseline needs to be comparable to a Fighter build focused on pushing out as much damage as possible?

And if the answer to that is that the damage-focused Fighter build is the only one worth playing... isn't that a bigger problem?


I appreciate the chart and understand your point. My response would be that a champion fighter with a greatsword and GWM as his only damage-relevant feat, the baseline I was using, is NOT in fact a "purely damage-focused build," or at least not a particularly well-done one. If the fighter is serious, he should be taking PAM and a better subclass (Battlemaster works well), along with other damage feats like Charger, and probably doing something clever with his weapon mastery. Heck, I didn't even factor in fighting styles (because I don't like GWF) and a champion has two of them. My point was that a fighter wallops the best monk option without even really trying.

[Theodoxus]

Seems the best option, for both Barbarian and Monk is to make their unarmored defense be 8 + Prof + Dex + Con/Wis

That way it plays exactly the same in tier 1 and gets slowly better over time, as one would expect.

[Amechra]

is NOT in fact a "purely damage-focused build,"

Nah, it is. They dumped defense and utility in order to smack things with a big ol' sword — that's damage-focused. Sure, it's not optimized, but eh — I'll redo the chart tonight with a more optimized damage-dealing Fighter (still using Champion, because who knows what the other three D&DONE Fighter subclasses will look like?) as the top-end. I have a suspicion that the distance between the PAM+GWM+Graze Fighter and the GWM+Graze Fighter is going to be smaller than the one between the S&B+Flex Fighter and the GWM+Graze Fighter, but I'd have to run the numbers to make sure. I'll also probably redo it starting at 6th level, just to avoid that big ol' spike in Tier 1.

Because I think you understood part of the argument... but then didn't understand the whole thing? Because you're still going "the Monk's damage should be closer to the ballpark of a damage-focused build of a damage-focused class", which is honestly setting the bar pretty high? Like, the Beastmaster Ranger is making four attacks per round starting at 11th level (two of their own, two using their Beast), is making their first attack per turn with Advantage (from their Beast's Flyby Help), and is spending their Concentration on a damage buff (which effectively double-applies thanks to Beastmaster), and they still are pretty far behind what the 11th level Fighter who picked up a Greatsword, GWF, and GWM can do without spending any resources and with a pretty middling subclass.

[ZRN]

Nah, it is. They dumped defense and utility in order to smack things with a big ol' sword — that's damage-focused. Sure, it's not optimized, but eh — I'll redo the chart tonight with a more optimized damage-dealing Fighter (still using Champion, because who knows what the other three D&DONE Fighter subclasses will look like?) as the top-end. I have a suspicion that the distance between the PAM+GWM+Graze Fighter and the GWM+Graze Fighter is going to be smaller than the one between the S&B+Flex Fighter and the GWM+Graze Fighter, but I'd have to run the numbers to make sure. I'll also probably redo it starting at 6th level, just to avoid that big ol' spike in Tier 1.

Because I think you understood part of the argument... but then didn't understand the whole thing? Because you're still going "the Monk's damage should be closer to the ballpark of a damage-focused build of a damage-focused class", which is honestly setting the bar pretty high? Like, the Beastmaster Ranger is making four attacks per round starting at 11th level (two of their own, two using their Beast), is making their first attack per turn with Advantage (from their Beast's Flyby Help), and is spending their Concentration on a damage buff (which effectively double-applies thanks to Beastmaster), and they still are pretty far behind what the 11th level Fighter who picked up a Greatsword, GWF, and GWM can do without spending any resources and with a pretty middling subclass.

1. The greatsword guy has 3 feats open for defense and utility. (Heavy Weapon Master is good now! Maybe that, Sentinel, and Alert?) Fair point about the other subclasses, but let's just keep in mind that assuming no major changes, BM or EK would probably be better damage AND better defense AND better utility.

2. Here's the thing: rangers (and rogues and spell casters) add something to the party, through skills and spells. Monks are "warriors" because they're in the same boat as fighters and (now to a lesser extent) barbarians: 90+% of their class and subclass features are combat-focused. Rogue is probably the closest comparison: the new monk probably has comparable mobility in battle to a rogue, not drastically better defenses, and worse damage, (now) worse debuffs, and worse out-of-combat capabilities. That's bad! They could improve the classes in other ways, but I think a baseline DPR buff helps a lot.