Meeting half-way between Healing Surges and expending Hit Dice

[Arkhios]

So,

Before I start, I know DMG has an optional/variant rule for Healing Surges, but that's not what I'm looking for.

For someone who is playing a single classed character, expending hit dice is somewhat simple (though I still find it clumsy when I to try to explain it every time to new players, even if I'm using plain words outside Rules Jargon to convey the exactly same thing), but it's rather complex for multiclassed characters - especially if you multiclass between classes with varying Hit Dice.

I'm fairly positive that I'm not alone with this and that someone has come up with something to make it easier and simple.

I'm looking for a middle ground, something between expending hit dice and using healing surges (as in 4th edition) on a short rest as a way to regain hit points via rest, rather than magic.

My initial thoughts are something along these lines:
- You still have your hit dice as normal, depending on your class etc. So, as a fighter3/wizard 2 your hit dice would still be 3d10 and 2d6.
- Instead of saying you expend a hit die and roll the die and add your Con modifier per each hit die expended, you have a fixed value of hit points you regain with each "Surge". The fixed value doesn't care about what is the size of each of your individual hit dice, and instead is something you calculate otherwise. The total number of these "surges" you can use to recover should of course be tied to your total number of hit dice, but how exactly, and how you should calculate the Surge value be to keep it "in check" and "balanced"? This is what I'd like to hear opinions and suggestions about.

[Kaviyd]

For healing surge size, maybe you should divide total hit points by character level and let that be your healing surge value.

As advantage of this method is that you can adjust the divisor if you don't want the number of healing surges to exactly match your character level/number of hit dice.

[Anymage]

If you want a flat value instead of rolling, just say that everybody has reserve points equal to their full HP value and can spend those points during a short rest to recover HP.

[Kane0]

Spitballing off the top of my head:
When you take a short rest you heal HP equal to Con Mod x level. If you have the Tough or Durable feats, double it.
Or just have a pool that you can choose to spend on a short rest, like two-thirds your maximum HP or something.


Alternatively, maybe you'd want ways to spend hit dice without resting? For example:
When you are subject to a healing spell you can spend up to 1 hit die per level of the spell to heal extra
When you are subject to healing/treatment from a class ability, healer's kit or healing potion you can spend a number of hit dice up to your Prof bonus to heal extra, once per long rest

[Wandiya]

Could you generate the healing per surge by using the average of the hit dice rolls? I.e. 3×5.5 + 2×3.5 = 23.5.

Split that over 5 surges (1 surge per hit dice or level)= 4.7 hp per surge. Then add Con Mod. Adjust rounding however you want

[DammitVictor]

Not sure how helpful any of this is, since I'm using a lot of house rules in this area, but:

All characters are effectively (for your purposes) single-classed in my game; I'm using different multiclassing rules.
Characters have a number of Hit Dice equal to their character level + bonus in Endurance (CON) skill.
Characters can spend one Hit Die as an action, per short rest, to regain hit points equal to Hit Die roll + Endurance. Some classes get substantial improvements, especially dwarves and ogres.

Healing during a short rest works the same way. Hit Dice are rolled one at a time.

The reason I buff Hit Dice so much is that I nerf magical healing: magical healing is tied to and limited by Hit Dice, like in 4e. Cure Wounds and Healing Word allow (and encourage) characters to spend Hit Dice, lay on hands allows a "paladin" to spend their Hit Dice to heal someone else.

[Arkhios]

Spitballing off the top of my head:
When you take a short rest you heal HP equal to Con Mod x level. If you have the Tough or Durable feats, double it.
Well, at least it's simple. It has potential, though it is maybe a little to simple; I'll have to think about this.



Or just have a pool that you can choose to spend on a short rest, like two-thirds your maximum HP or something.
Hmmm. Now there's an idea. Two-thirds of maximum HP could be the maximum per long rest you can recover during short rests.

Also, the result of "two-thirds of your maximum HP divided by your character level" could be the equivalent value of each "hit die" you have. So, whenever you take a long rest and you would recover expended hit dice, your pool regains hit points equal to your hit die "value" per each hit die regained.


Could you generate the healing per surge by using the average of the hit dice rolls? I.e. 3×5.5 + 2×3.5 = 23.5.

Split that over 5 surges (1 surge per hit dice or level)= 4.7 hp per surge. Then add Con Mod. Adjust rounding however you want.

I actually thought about that after posting the OP. The idea of using averages feels tempting, as I've grown used to doing that myself, but explaining the "average of each die" is somewhat necessary to people who don't "understand it by default", like for someone who's not that into a more detailed math or is not old enough to have been taught similar math in school, and it might actually be more trouble than it's worth.

An alternative solution for this could be to simply use the amount of hit points you would gain at level up, for all the hit dice you have, and then divide the total by the amount of hit dice and then add your Con modifier to each surge. I.e. 3x6 + 2x4 = 26. Divided by 5, we get 5.2. Since we're adding Con modifier on top, I'm inclined to rounding down as a rule (for this option)

Not sure how helpful any of this is, since I'm using a lot of house rules in this area, but:

All characters are effectively (for your purposes) single-classed in my game; I'm using different multiclassing rules.
Characters have a number of Hit Dice equal to their character level + bonus in Endurance (CON) skill.
Characters can spend one Hit Die as an action, per short rest, to regain hit points equal to Hit Die roll + Endurance. Some classes get substantial improvements, especially dwarves and ogres.

Healing during a short rest works the same way. Hit Dice are rolled one at a time.

The reason I buff Hit Dice so much is that I nerf magical healing: magical healing is tied to and limited by Hit Dice, like in 4e. Cure Wounds and Healing Word allow (and encourage) characters to spend Hit Dice, lay on hands allows a "paladin" to spend their Hit Dice to heal someone else.

Not exactly what I was looking for, but interesting nonetheless. But what is the die characters are rolling? Is Hit Die the same for every class or is it determined by some other means since all characters are effectively single-classed even when they're not?

[DammitVictor]

Not exactly what I was looking for, but interesting nonetheless. But what is the die characters are rolling? Is Hit Die the same for every class or is it determined by some other means since all characters are effectively single-classed even when they're not?

It differs by class, it's just the same die for every character level-- d4 for most mages, d6 for shamans and thieves, d8 for swashbucklers, d10 for cavaliers and berserkers, d12 for dwarves and giff. A multiclass character might change their class Hit Die (a little), even after 1st level... but all of their hit dice will always be the same size.

[Frogreaver]

I like the pool per long rest idea. Always feels bad to roll low in hit dice anyways and doesn’t feel particularly great to roll high.

I think I’d set it to 100% of hp though. On average that’s right at what healing surges should provide anyways outside the first few levels (or right near it).

A level 5 fighter with 16 con will have 49 hp. He can restore 42.5 hp on average via hit dice. That’s 87% hp and it only increases as you level.

[Arkhios]

It differs by class, it's just the same die for every character level-- d4 for most mages, d6 for shamans and thieves, d8 for swashbucklers, d10 for cavaliers and berserkers, d12 for dwarves and giff. A multiclass character might change their class Hit Die (a little), even after 1st level... but all of their hit dice will always be the same size.

I'm not sure if I understood this right. Does the different hit dice affect each other somehow, like if I have a d10 hit die first, and then multiclass to a class with d4 hit die, do I use d10, d4, or something else in between?

Let's take an example: If I have a multiclassed character, say a cavalier 5 and mage 2, and those classes individually have d10 and d4 hit dice, respectively, what die would they roll for their effectively single class?

[DammitVictor]

I'm not sure if I understood this right. Does the different hit dice affect each other somehow, like if I have a d10 hit die first, and then multiclass to a class with d4 hit die, do I use d10, d4, or something else in between?

Let's take an example: If I have a multiclassed character, say a cavalier 5 and mage 2, and those classes individually have d10 and d4 hit dice, respectively, what die would they roll for their effectively single class?

I see the problem. I'm not using "standard" multiclassing, so you're not going to have different levels in different classes-- you'd be a level 5 character, with d8 hit dice.

[Arkhios]

I see the problem. I'm not using "standard" multiclassing, so you're not going to have different levels in different classes-- you'd be a level 5 character, with d8 hit dice.

I'd like to understand the logic behind this. Could you elaborate?

[DammitVictor]

I'd like to understand the logic behind this. Could you elaborate?

If you weren't the OP, I would say that I'm worried about diverting attention away from your thread.

I'm an AD&D guy, or better yet, an "even edition" guy. I'm trying to get multiclassing to work more like AD&D or 4e hybrid multiclassing, a "partial gestalt" solution where you give up a little of each class's power and accept a higher XP requirement to gain levels in exchange for simultaneous progression.

The d8 Hit Die is the standard for Warrior classes. d10 and d12 are "above and beyond" for classes like the Berserker and the Dwarf, so a multiclassed... well, cavalier or berserker or dwarf would step it back by one. A multiclassed Warrior or Rogue gains martial arts like a medium initiator, a multiclassed Mage or Priest gains spellcasting like a medium spellcaster, a multiclassed Psychic gains psionics like a medium manifester. (While retaining their single-class access to maneuver/spell/power lists.)

It's all still very much a work-in-progress.

[Arkhios]

If you weren't the OP, I would say that I'm worried about diverting attention away from your thread.

Well, as I said, it's not exactly what I was looking for ...but it's not too far off either. It does have a solution to the issue: "change the Hit Die for a multiclass based on the combination, therefore making it easier to handle regaining hit points through hit dice". The execution is different from the norm, due to different classes and hit dice, but the principle is mostly straightforward, and imho, could be ported to more standard 5th edition.


I'm an AD&D guy, or better yet, an "even edition" guy. I'm trying to get multiclassing to work more like AD&D or 4e hybrid multiclassing, a "partial gestalt" solution where you give up a little of each class's power and accept a higher XP requirement to gain levels in exchange for simultaneous progression.

The d8 Hit Die is the standard for Warrior classes. d10 and d12 are "above and beyond" for classes like the Berserker and the Dwarf, so a multiclassed... well, cavalier or berserker or dwarf would step it back by one. A multiclassed Warrior or Rogue gains martial arts like a medium initiator, a multiclassed Mage or Priest gains spellcasting like a medium spellcaster, a multiclassed Psychic gains psionics like a medium manifester. (While retaining their single-class access to maneuver/spell/power lists.)
Now I think I understand it. Basically it's same as finding a middle ground (or "average") between two (or more) types of classes and especially their hit dice. For example if you were to combine a d10 class with a d6 class, you'd have a d8 Hit Die, since it's between the other two dice. Of course, sometimes it's not as straightforward, if the two classes' hit dice are already "adjacent" to each other. Such as d8 and d6, or if there's two steps between the two dice, such as d12 and d6. I suppose in those cases you'd have to make a choice depending on what is the focus of said combination.


It's all still very much a work-in-progress.
Well, there's always room to grow, even for a finished product. Nothing wrong in being work-in-progress.

[DammitVictor]

Of course, sometimes it's not as straightforward, if the two classes' hit dice are already "adjacent" to each other. Such as d8 and d6, or if there's two steps between the two dice, such as d12 and d6. I suppose in those cases you'd have to make a choice depending on what is the focus of said combination.

Basically, yeah. I'm still really up in the air about a lot of the base Hit Die values, a rough estimate that Warriors gravitate around the d8, Rogues/Priests/Psychics the d6, and Mages the d4... with tougher and weaker exceptions in most categories. And aliens generally running the full gamut of d6 up through d10/d12.

[Arkhios]

That out of the way, and while a "hybrid hit die" system is definitely an option in a game I might run myself, I'm looking for an optional system to offer anyone, even for our current game where I'm only a player (and co-writer for the setting).


I like the pool per long rest idea. Always feels bad to roll low in hit dice anyways and doesn’t feel particularly great to roll high.

I think I’d set it to 100% of hp though. On average that’s right at what healing surges should provide anyways outside the first few levels (or right near it).

A level 5 fighter with 16 con will have 49 hp. He can restore 42.5 hp on average via hit dice. That’s 87% hp and it only increases as you level.

A Pool per Long Rest seems like it would be a good alternative, and simple enough to more easily explain to others than the current "expend a hit die and add your con modifier, for each die expended separately, where expending a hit die doesn't reduce your actual hit dice" which is very confusing to say the least.

I find something like this to be better, though it might still need more work.
Pool of Natural Healing
You have a pool of natural healing equal to your Maximum Hit Points. During a Short Rest, you can spend any number of points from your Pool and regain an equal amount of Hit Points. The pool regenerates over time by increments called Healing Surges. A Healing Surge is equal to [one sixth*] of your Maximum Hit Points (rounded down).
At the end of a long rest, a character regains all lost hit points. The character also gains Healing Surges up to a number equal to the character's Proficiency Bonus, or until your Pool of Natural Healing is fully restored.

For example, a level 5 fighter with Constitution 16 has 49 hit points, which is also the maximum of the fighter's Pool of Natural Healing, and their Healing Surge is worth 8 points.
Prior to a Short Rest they have taken damage and have 10 hit points remaining. After finishing a Short Rest, they spend 39 points from their pool and regain an equal amount of Hit Points.
After finishing a Long Rest, the fighter's Pool of Natural Healing regenerates by three Healing Surges (equal to 24 points), because their proficiency bonus is +3, leaving their Pool of Natural Healing at a total of 34 points.

Likewise, a multiclassed character with 3 levels in fighter and 2 levels in wizard, with Constitution 16, has 45 hit points. Their Healing Surge is worth 7 points. Since the character's total level is 5, their proficiency bonus is similarly +3. Therefore, on a Long Rest their pool of Natural Healing would regenerate by three Healing Surges (equal to 21 points), unless already fully restored.

[*subject to change, as I'm still trying to figure out a reasonable fraction considering the mechanic I came up with.]

[Quietus]

That seems unnecessarily complicated. The math is petty close, why not just make it, the pool is your max HP, and it recovers half each long rest? Mimics hit dice in that way but it's more reliable.

[Mongobear]

Make the Medicine skill, and by extension the Healer Feat a baseline mechanic. Limited use, but whenever you rest, someone can heal allies up. Clean, simple, already supported by 5e, just tweaked a bit to make it more applicable.

At most, add a scaling bonus to how much it heals, based on a Medicine check. Maybe it starts out as just a flat amount, then scales up with dice every 5 points of your check? Maybe for every range of multiples of 10 (1-10, 11-20, 21-30, etc) the target can heal as if they expended a hit die, without actually expending a hit die?

[Anymage]

Making healing surges work like they did in 4e would require building a couple of things that aren't in 5e. First off they made healing scale since most heal effects were also surge spenders. Second they made healing limited based on the recipient's available surges instead of the healer's spell slots. These are good ideas on their own, but they don't really fit in with the spell slot system and how many things - including healing - are so tightly tied to it. If the goal is simplicity, making "hit dice" a pool of points equal to max HP instead of a pool of dice that winds up being essentially the same thing is probably the easiest way to do that.

[Arkhios]

That seems unnecessarily complicated. The math is petty close, why not just make it, the pool is your max HP, and it recovers half each long rest? Mimics hit dice in that way but it's more reliable.

As I said, it needed more work. As in, it's not ready. A work-in-progress.

It was convoluted, yes. Your proposal is a good one.


Making healing surges work like they did in 4e would require building a couple of things that aren't in 5e. First off they made healing scale since most heal effects were also surge spenders. Second they made healing limited based on the recipient's available surges instead of the healer's spell slots. These are good ideas on their own, but they don't really fit in with the spell slot system and how many things - including healing - are so tightly tied to it. If the goal is simplicity, making "hit dice" a pool of points equal to max HP instead of a pool of dice that winds up being essentially the same thing is probably the easiest way to do that.

(We) shouldn't get too hung up on the term Healing Surge (as a note-to-self, as well; I may have focused too much on the Healing Surge to forcibly include the nomenclature in the previous iteration above). I'm not trying to bring a complete 4e mechanic to 5e, only something that might have a resemblance to (some parts of) it.