Had an idea for a fighting style, don't know if it's any good

[titi]

I had an idea for a fighting style to go with the fact that they put persuasion in the fighter's skill list :

Leader : As a reaction to an ally missing on an attack roll, you can add your charisma modifier to their roll, potentially turning it into a hit

[Kane0]

Seems fine to me

[stoutstien]

Just needs better framing for trigger. Does it work on spell attacks or only weapons? Does the ally need to see or hear user if the FS. What range does it have.

All though, it does suffer from the same issue twf style does where is scales backwards. Starts out strong (assuming they have the Cha to make it worthwhile) but quickly falls off as action economy values get higher. At lv 1 it amazing, at lv 10 it's meh, and by T4 it's dead weight.

[titi]

Just needs better framing for trigger. Does it work on spell attacks or only weapons? Does the ally need to see or hear user if the FS. What range does it have.

All though, it does suffer from the same issue twf style does where is scales backwards. Starts out strong (assuming they have the Cha to make it worthwhile) but quickly falls off as action economy values get higher. At lv 1 it amazing, at lv 10 it's meh, and by T4 it's dead weight.


Oh you're right I completly forgot to put a range. Well, flash of genius is 30ft so that should be alright

I did choose not to specify melee/ranged or weapon/spell, tho.

All right, adding a bit to the description :

Whenever another creature who can hear you within 30 feet fails an attack roll, you can use your reaction to add your Charisma modifier to the roll, potentially turning it into a success.


I don't have much of an issue with it being bad at tier 3 and 4, mostly because I don't play at those tiers, but also because you can ask your dm if you can swap fighting style if you really feel like it does nothing for you.

[JackPhoenix]

All though, it does suffer from the same issue twf style does where is scales backwards. Starts out strong (assuming they have the Cha to make it worthwhile) but quickly falls off as action economy values get higher. At lv 1 it amazing, at lv 10 it's meh, and by T4 it's dead weight.

Not really. It's a reaction, so it's got little competition unlike BA, and ensuring a rogue hits with a sneak attack (or, hell, any hit at all) is more valuable than an opportunity attack the fighter may or may not get.

[KorvinStarmast]

I had an idea for a fighting style to go with the fact that they put persuasion in the fighter's skill list:
Leader : As a reaction to an ally missing on an attack roll, you can add your charisma modifier to their roll, potentially turning it into a hit
I like it well enough to discuss play testing this with our next group.

Oh you're right I completly forgot to put a range. Well, flash of genius is 30ft so that should be alright

I did choose not to specify melee/ranged or weapon/spell, tho.

All right, adding a bit to the description :

Whenever another creature who can hear you within 30 feet fails an attack roll, you can use your reaction to add your Charisma modifier to the roll, potentially turning it into a success.


I don't have much of an issue with it being bad at tier 3 and 4, mostly because I don't play at those tiers, but also because you can ask your dm if you can swap fighting style if you really feel like it does nothing for you. Is this allowed for paladins also, or just Fighters? Rangers? Barbarians? (And FWIW, this seems to fit the Purple Dragon Knight theme pretty well).

[stoutstien]

Not really. It's a reaction, so it's got little competition unlike BA, and ensuring a rogue hits with a sneak attack (or, hell, any hit at all) is more valuable than an opportunity attack the fighter may or may not get.

Depends. Of the subclasses that see the most table time (IMO) most have built in reactions that quickly outpace OAs. The RK, which I believe is all around the best fighter, has so a list to choose from.

The other classes are going to be a little be better but it would still be a second tier pick. Could see some clerics grabbing it due to limited options.

It does have a niche for helping other who have big riders and seeing how it is intentional that it works with spells it gets better with select combos but is think it be better a stabled on features of the banner knight or a new subclass from scratch. Then you can adjust scaling without the limits FS have.


If I wanted to build a fighting style that was similar to this I would make a reaction to give an attack advantage before the roll and add on a passive advantage on persuasion checks for the user. It would be a little bit more intuitive because it's kind of hard to visualize how somebody can make an attack that missed hit simply by force of personality and it would be faster resolution.


I like warlord style mechanics as long as they're not bogging anything down.

[titi]

I like it well enough to discuss play testing this with our next group.
Is this allowed for paladins also, or just Fighters? Rangers? Barbarians? (And FWIW, this seems to fit the Purple Dragon Knight theme pretty well).

Thank you, that's really nice of you.

It would probably be a fighter/paladin one (because they're the 2 closest to the fantasy of the leader in battle) but I'm sure people can make a character that fit the fantasy with any martial

[JellyPooga]

The only aspect that makes me a little leery is the "after you see it's a miss" part. Using your reaction to add (up to) +5 to a miss is way more powerful than adding (up to) +5 to an attack roll before seeing the outcome. At first pass, I'd be inclined to make it proactive (i.e. use before roll) rather than reactive (i.e. use after roll) in that way.

It's worth bearing in mind that Archery style only adds +2 and is considered one of, if not the, most powerful FS's. For a character that often has little use for their reaction, +5 to hit for someone else, especially someone that has much bigger riders on their damage rolls (e.g. Rogues and Paladins), is more than significant, particularly given that you a) aren't risking it's expenditure unless you know it will be useful and b) is a resource that replenishes every turn.

[Frogreaver]

In t1 and t2 you probably have 16 cha if you are using this.

Back of napkin math.

So essentially a +3 to hit. For t1 thatÂ’s probably about a 50% chance to be useful a turn. For t2 itÂ’s probably like a 66% chance.

An attack does around 8 damage on a hit. So the ability is roughly adding 4 DPR in t1 -> letÂ’s reduce this to 3 due to imperfect use the ability only has room to improve in more optimal parties (GWM, SS, rogue, hex, hunters mark, magic weapons. ThatÂ’s huge! Dueling style only adds about +1 DPR for comparison.

I feel better about this styles power level in t2 compared to other styles as the gap narrows, but t1 itÂ’s probably the best style available. That said a couple more points of dpr isnÂ’t going to be game breaking and it wonÂ’t hurt spotlight balance since itÂ’s the kind you share with AllyÂ’s.

An alternative might be for it to add a flat +2 instead of cha mod. That would help it in t1 without making it useless in t2.

[Saelethil]

In t1 and t2 you probably have 16 cha if you are using this.

Back of napkin math.

So essentially a +3 to hit. For t1 thatÂ’s probably about a 50% chance to be useful a turn. For t2 itÂ’s probably like a 66% chance.

An attack does around 8 damage on a hit. So the ability is roughly adding 4 DPR in t1 -> letÂ’s reduce this to 3 due to imperfect use the ability only has room to improve in more optimal parties (GWM, SS, rogue, hex, hunters mark, magic weapons. ThatÂ’s huge! Dueling style only adds about +1 DPR for comparison.

I feel better about this styles power level in t2 compared to other styles as the gap narrows, but t1 itÂ’s probably the best style available. That said a couple more points of dpr isnÂ’t going to be game breaking and it wonÂ’t hurt spotlight balance since itÂ’s the kind you share with AllyÂ’s.

An alternative might be for it to add a flat +2 instead of cha mod. That would help it in t1 without making it useless in t2.

Half way through reading this I thought “PB instead of Cha. might work pretty well” and got to the bottom and saw your idea wasn’t too far off. Maybe 1 + 1/4 your martial level to be decent at every tier without being to much dip bait.

[Frogreaver]

In t1 and t2 you probably have 16 cha if you are using this.

Back of napkin math.

So essentially a +3 to hit. For t1 thatÂ’s probably about a 50% chance to be useful a turn. For t2 itÂ’s probably like a 66% chance.

An attack does around 8 damage on a hit. So the ability is roughly adding 4 DPR in t1 -> letÂ’s reduce this to 3 due to imperfect use the ability only has room to improve in more optimal parties (GWM, SS, rogue, hex, hunters mark, magic weapons. ThatÂ’s huge! Dueling style only adds about +1 DPR for comparison.

I feel better about this styles power level in t2 compared to other styles as the gap narrows, but t1 itÂ’s probably the best style available. That said a couple more points of dpr isnÂ’t going to be game breaking and it wonÂ’t hurt spotlight balance since itÂ’s the kind you share with AllyÂ’s.

An alternative might be for it to add a flat +2 instead of cha mod. That would help it in t1 without making it useless in t2.

[Arkhios]

I had an idea for a fighting style to go with the fact that they put persuasion in the fighter's skill list :

Leader : As a reaction to an ally missing on an attack roll, you can add your charisma modifier to their roll, potentially turning it into a hit

Rephrased it for you.
Leader: As a reaction, when an ally within 30 feet of you makes an attack roll and misses, you can grant your Charisma modifier to that attack roll, potentially turning it to a hit.

As for which classes should have access to this Fighting Style? I'd say any class that is reasonable to have this sort of utility in their pocket: Fighter and Paladin (obviously), maybe even Ranger (Beast Master for example) even though Charisma is a "tertiary" score for them at best. If a Bard has a subclass feature that gives them options to choose a Fighting Style from, then that one too (College of Swords comes to mind).

[KorvinStarmast]

Rephrased it for you.
Leader: As a reaction, when an ally within 30 feet of you makes an attack roll and misses, you can grant your Charisma modifier to that attack roll, potentially turning it to a hit. Nice and concise. +1. :smallsmile:
EDIT (I found the ability)
As an observation:
This is very similar to the Knight NPCs Leadership ability to "bless" his allies.
The PC one, rather than being a "spell like ability" is a reaction. I'll pass this to our next DM as a suggested test play.
(And if that game, which is supposed to start in September, falls apart due to RL stuff, I'll be mucho sad.)

My recommendation will be: Fighters and Paladins only. I am open to "Rangers too" arguments, though.
Using PB might be as good of a mod as could be, but in higher tiers this might get out of hand ... :smalleek:

[Arkhios]

Nice and concise. +1. :smallsmile:

Thanks! :smallredface:


Using PB might be as good of a mod as could be, but in higher tiers this might get out of hand ... :smalleek:

Half a PB (rounded up or down - might have to playtest) maybe? Even +1 is pretty good, and +3 at higher tier is not over the top; especially if you're only limited by how many Reactions you can take.

[KorvinStarmast]

Half a PB (rounded up or down - might have to playtest) maybe? Even +1 is pretty good, and +3 at higher tier is not over the top; especially if you're only limited by how many Reactions you can take. 1/2 PB Rounded up is my suggestion but Cha Mod is more thematically in synch.

[Arkhios]

1/2 PB Rounded up is my suggestion but Cha Mod is more thematically in synch.

Indeed. Charisma is THE leadership score, after all :smallcool:

[titi]

Rephrased it for you.
Leader: As a reaction, when an ally within 30 feet of you makes an attack roll and misses, you can grant your Charisma modifier to that attack roll, potentially turning it to a hit.

Thank you. Yeah that's much better

[Kane0]

I would note this is considerably better on a paladin than a fighter, because the former already has plenty of reasons to want a good charisma and the latter pretty much none.

You could swap it to Int so it is mapped to a secondary stat for fighters, paladins, rangers and valor bards equally (except for arguably EKs).

[Quietus]

I would note this is considerably better on a paladin than a fighter, because the former already has plenty of reasons to want a good charisma and the latter pretty much none.

You could swap it to Int so it is mapped to a secondary stat for fighters, paladins, rangers and valor bards equally (except for arguably EKs).

I'd even go so far as to say, let the character pick the (mental) stat it uses when they choose the fighting style. Paladins will almost universally pick charisma, of course, but I could see a fighter picking any of the stats - int is the logical warleader, the strategist. Wis is the opportunist, the person who sees how the battle is shaping up and gently nudges things in their favor. And charisma is the classic battle leader, claiming victory at the top of their lungs.