Top 10 level 1 spells at ECL2 & 20.

[Anthrowhale]

As a followup to top-10 cantrips (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?657743-Top-10-cantrips), here's a top-10 list for level 1 spells. As always, comments / questions / where am I wrong is welcome.

Fero had some good clarifying questions (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25823946&postcount=43) which I'll adopt into the OP.

What level? Let's go with ECL2 (slightly higher than ECL1 when they first become available) and ECL20 (which is basically a limiting case).
Essentials? Yes, let's include essentials like healing. There are many ways to find this in the game, but a list of 10 spells is also generous.
Combos? Yes, let's include relevant combos. These are most applicable in the ECL20 limit since often combos are incomplete at lower levels.


ECL2 list

W Color Spray (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/colorSpray.htm) Illusion(Pattern)[Mind-Affecting] 15' cone multitarget Will-or-lose / debuff vs. low HD targets. At level 1 a multitarget helplessness generator. Ages, but even at high levels often a way to trade one action for several enemy actions. Beats out the similar Sleep which is a full-round cast and does not function at even medium levels.
C Heartache (BoVD) Enchantment[Evil, Mind-Affecting] At close range target helpless for 1 round (will negates). If someone can Coup de Grace this is a save-or-die effect. Oh look, DMM[Quicken] is available at level 1 and Coup de Grace is an automatic hit with a Lucerne Hammer which you need not be proficient in. How many creatures survive a fortitude save of 10+8d4 (~= 30) at level 2? Note that Mesmerist Gloves (MIC) allow you to affect an additional creature within 10'. At level 20, Vision of Punishment is about as effective and already a swift action.
BW Charm Person (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/charmPerson.htm) Enchantment (Charm) [Mind-Affecting] Make a humanoid your dear friend for hour/level. Cast out of combat to avoid the +5 penalty. Note that Mesmerist Gloves (MIC) enable you to affect an additional creature within 10'.
COW Protection from Evil (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm) Abjuration [Good]. AC+2(deflect), Saves+2(resist), immune mental control, natural attacks of summoned for minute/level. Very powerful protections for a short period.


ECL20 list

C Conviction (Spell Compendium) Abjuration. Eventually saves+5(morale) for 10 min/level. An early highly orthogonal numbers bonus which just gets better with levels. This is better than Superior Resistance, a good 6th level spell since resistance bonuses are common.
B Improvisation (Spell Compendium) Transmutation. +caster level/2 to 4 skill checks in round/level as a luck bonus. Highly cumulative with other skill bonuses and skills matter. A Diplomacy check of 30 makes a hostile creature merely unfriendly as a full round action while DC 60 convert them to helpful (as good as an in-combat charm monster). A high Hide check beats even True Seeing. Concentration checks can replace saves. Iajutsu focus turns a skill check into damage. Also useful for straight attack rolls and ability checks.
DO Snowsight (Frostburn) Transmutation. You can see through snow for hour/level. This is extremely situational at ECL 1, but becomes amazing at ECL 3 when Obscuring Snow becomes available and stays useful from then on. The I-can-see-and-you-can't effect is similar to Firesight + smokesticks, but it lasts longer and is cumulative in the sense that you can use both and an adversary must counter both to see you. Overall, better than Swift Invisibility which comes online at level 1 but consumes a swift action to use, lasts a single round, and becomes increasingly obsolete at higher levels.
BW Loresong (Dragon #335). Divination. For round/level gain 4+1/2 levels competence bonus to skill and use untrained. Another first level skill bonus which is cumulative with Improvisation. Guidance of the Avatar also gives a competence skill bonus, but it's for only one try and at caster level 34+ it's smaller. Loresong is also persistable potentially providing an all-day giant skill bonus.


ECL2&20 list:

BW Silent Image (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/silentImage.htm) Illusion(Figment). 4+level 10' cubes of any object, creature, or force for concentration. Complements Ghost Sounds. Highly variable dependent on your imagination but potentially very useful until True Seeing becomes common.
W Nerveskitter (Spell Compendium) Transmutation. Initiative +5 as an immediate action that you can cast while flat-footed. Going first is always important, but particularly so at low levels and at high levels. At higher levels Contingency[cast Nerve Skitter][Celerity] unlocks _any_ action, even when you are flat-footed.
C Resurgence (Spell Compendium) Abjuration. Reroll any saving throw against Spell, SLA, or Supernatural ability. This provide an answer to any save-based status effect short of save-or-die.
BD Instant of Power (Forge of War) Transmutation. As an immediate action close range creature gains +4 enhancement bonus to next attack, damage, or save within a round. The +4 enhancement bonus to saves is what's most relevant since there are no other sources of enhancement bonuses to saves. Between Conviction and Instant of Power, first level grants a hefty+9 to saves, and Resurgence allows you to reroll them.
DO Entangle (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/entangle.htm). Transmutation. At long range, a 40' radius min/level Refl-or-entangled. Works for an entire combat at level 1 and even ranged enemies suffer -4 to hit. Beats out Grease and Ice Slick which are round/level and smaller radius. The only fly in the ointment is that this spell requires vegetation. Impeding Stones is more universal but prone is a significantly milder condition than entangled. Using the stronger effect by introducing plants into the battlefield via (for example) plant-based barding on minions seems like the better plan. Even at high levels, the long range and large AoE is situationally useful as a lockdown effect against enemies incapable of teleport.
CD Lesser Vigor (Spell Compendium) Conjuration(Healing). Heal touched living creature 1 hp/round for 10+level (max 15) rounds. Great on a wand for bulk healing and it can potentially be persisted, possibly with ocular spell.


B = Bard, C = Cleric, D = Druid, O = dOmain, W = Sorcerer/Wizard

Count by:
class: 3.5B, 3.5C, 3.5D, 2O, 4W
school: 2 Abj, 1 Conj, 0.5 Div, 1 Ench, 1.5 Ill, 4 Trans,
modifiers: 0.5 Charm, 0.5 Evil, 1 Figment, 0.5 Good, 1 Healing, 1 Mind-affecting, 0.5 Pattern
source: 0.5 BoVD, 0.5 Dragon, 0.5 Frostburn, 1 Forge of War, 3.5 PHB, 4 SC

We aren't including off-beat prestige class spells, but of note is Haste as a level 1 spell on the Trapsmith list.

Maybe not:
S Vision of Punishment Divination[Mind-Affecting] At close range, nauseate for caster level/3 rounds Will to sicken instead as a swift action. A swift action lose-or-debuff since it knocks an opponent out for the entire duration of combat. Presumably you can handle the 1d2 str damage at this level. The fundamental issues with VoP at at low level is that it lasts 0 rounds. The fundamental issue with VoP at high level is that Crown of Despair at level 7 is a more potent effect requiring no action. In between, it may be useful.
BW Skillful Moment (Dragon #350). Divination. Chosen skill next round takes 20 as a standard action. Aside from complementing the other skill boosters, there's a perhaps-unintended effect here where you can take 20 as a standard action, apparently even when the skill would normally take longer to apply or for skills where you normally can't take 20. Generally obsolete due to Surge of Fortune at higher levels, although you can still access for the abusive elements via Anyspell.

[Inevitability]

I think Resurgence deserves mention: getting a second save against all sorts of annoying ongoing conditions is extremely valuable. It's useful in-combat, and out of combat often acts as a Remove Curse or Dispel Magic. It even works against things that'd otherwise be permanent! (and arguably even instantaneous effects; plenty of spells can remove instantaneous effects, so a second save doing the same isn't unthinkably crazy).

edit: Also, Power Word Pain is a weird one; incredibly broken at low levels if you can outrun an enemy, useless later on.

[Anthrowhale]

I think Resurgence deserves mention: getting a second save against all sorts of annoying ongoing conditions is extremely valuable. It's useful in-combat, and out of combat often acts as a Remove Curse or Dispel Magic. It even works against things that'd otherwise be permanent! (and arguably even instantaneous effects; plenty of spells can remove instantaneous effects, so a second save doing the same isn't unthinkably crazy).
A level 1 status removal spell is interesting, but it's tough to drop something. Any ideas there?

In the early levels my experience is that most status effects time out reasonably quickly as an alternative to after-combat application. Once second level spells come around, you have to deal with things like Blindness, which really must be addressed...

For in-combat application, the opportunity cost of status removal is always something to consider. Save-or-suck effects probably aren't worth it in most circumstances? There are some save-or-lose effects you might encounter, but the window on application is further shortened by Dawn which copes with things like Sleep and nonlethal damage as a swift action. In the list we have, Color Spray and Entangle are examples, but addressing just one victim of a multitarget spells seems unlikely to be a worthwhile expenditure of effort. Heartache would be a great one to counter, but the window to do so may be to narrow in practice.

What are good examples of applications?



edit: Also, Power Word Pain is a weird one; incredibly broken at low levels if you can outrun an enemy, useless later on.
Yeah, I considered this. It depends a bit on whether you are judging spells over a 1-20 ECL range or a 1-2 ECL range (after which L2 spells come online.). I'm opting for the former.

[Zarvistic]

I would like to throw in Instant of Power as a recommendation.

Faith Healing doesn't even make a top 50 list I feel, seems like an odd choice.

[Anthrowhale]

I would like to throw in Instant of Power as a recommendation.
The enhancement bonus to attack or damage is initially decent, but the opportunity cost of the spell slot is high at low levels if we are operating on a 4-encounters-per-day norm.

Later the opportunity cost becomes low, but the bonus to attack and damage are subsumed by magic weapons or greater magic weapon.

That leaves the +4 to an ally's save as an immediate action. That's a decent effect---since you can effectively raise the party's saves by 4 vs. any save that can be predicted in a round.



Faith Healing doesn't even make a top 50 list I feel, seems like an odd choice.

Well, some healing effect is required by level 1. Cure Minor Wounds is super-inefficient. Cure Light Wounds is strictly inferior to Faith Healing as an effect. That leaves Faith Healing vs. Lesser Vigor. Faith Healing cures 80% of the hit points of Lesser Vigor while taking effect about 1000% faster. That seems like a good tradeoff?

Regardless of the Faith Healing vs. Lesser Vigor question, I don't think we can free up a slot for Instant of Power since some healing is just required for a party to function. Do you have another candidate to drop in mind?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Vision of Punishment (CoV) would be my suggestion.
It has a native swift action cast time, nauseates on a failed save and sickens on a successful save, so it's at least a -2 to the save against whatever you use your standard action for.
It's also a Sanctified spell so any prepared caster can use it (and good clerics cast it spontaneously).

It does cause 1d2 Str damage once it ends so it's not something you use at first level, but once you have a Rod of Bodily Restoration or similar it's a fantastic spell.
It's also mind-affecting and only works on evil living targets, but that's not exactly a small niche for most good-aligned characters.

As for things to drop my pick would be Chill Touch. At low levels i don't want to go into melee range and at high levels i don't need to. In my experience it's only really worth casting with Poison Spell, and Parching Touch does that better.
A melee touch spell needs a lot more than that to be worth any kind of top 10 slot imo.

[Zarvistic]

I think Instant of Power is really good at the low to mid levels where you still would cast level 1 spells. I would prepare one after getting 2nd levels spells on a druid. Greater magic weapon is still a long way too go, say level 9 or higher.

Having a party with the same deity seems too much to ask for. That's why I feel Faith Healing just doesn't fit in a top 10. But ok, if you're going by that assumption I don't disagree it's really good.

Also agree with sleepyphoenixx about Chill Touch.

[Inevitability]

In the early levels my experience is that most status effects time out reasonably quickly as an alternative to after-combat application. Once second level spells come around, you have to deal with things like Blindness, which really must be addressed...

Well, if you judge spells over an ECL 1-20 range, then surely Resurgence becomes worth it for a significant chunk of that? Having to prepare Remove Blindness and Neutralize Poison and Remove Curse and Break Enchantment is going to be rough for a significant chunk of your cleric's career, and spending a few low-level slots on covering the common and uncommon status removers is not going to be a bad move.

I'd always prepare it if I were a cleric after level... let's say 5, when Blindness, Bestow Curse, and Stinking Cloud come online. I might honestly like it more than even Protection from Evil (which is another strong candidate i forgot about) just because I'd rather have something a little useful in a lot of situations than something razor-focused on mental control only.

It's also helpful against a ton of monster abilities, like dominating gazes, frightful presences, paralysis...

[Anthrowhale]

Vision of Punishment (CoV) would be my suggestion.
It has a native swift action cast time, nauseates on a failed save and sickens on a successful save, so it's at least a -2 to the save against whatever you use your standard action for.

It's also multiple rounds of nausea at a high level so trading a swift for multiple rounds of opponent actions on a failed save.

It's a really late bloomer though, since it seems to do nothing on a failed save at caster level 1&2 (the nausea lasts for 0 rounds) and that rod is probably only affordable around ECL 5 or 6.

...still thinking about this.


Vision of Punishment (CoV) would be my suggestion.
As for things to drop my pick would be Chill Touch. At low levels i don't want to go into melee range and at high levels i don't need to. In my experience it's only really worth casting with Poison Spell, and Parching Touch does that better.
A melee touch spell needs a lot more than that to be worth any kind of top 10 slot imo.

The <caster level>d6 damage from a level 1 slot is enchantingly large for a level 1 direct damage effect, and if you were using it off one of the more robust spellcaster chassis via Dragonblood Spellpact melee fragility would be less of a concern.

Nevertheless, at level 1 the distinction between touch AC and AC is minor, as is the difference in damage between just using a weapon and casting Chill Touch. And, at higher levels there are alternatives as you point out. It would be easier to drop this if we had the higher levels filled out with something more concrete.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I'd always prepare it if I were a cleric after level... let's say 5, when Blindness, Bestow Curse, and Stinking Cloud come online. I might honestly like it more than even Protection from Evil (which is another strong candidate i forgot about) just because I'd rather have something a little useful in a lot of situations than something razor-focused on mental control only.

It's also helpful against a ton of monster abilities, like dominating gazes, frightful presences, paralysis...
Resurgence needs neither CL nor a save so it's an ideal canditate for a wand or scroll (or rune, if you have the feat to spare).
It's one of those spells you should almost never prepare (because chances are you won't use it most of the time, but when you use it you'll likely need more than one).



The <caster level>d6 damage from a level 1 slot is enchantingly large for a level 1 direct damage effect, and if you were using it off one of the more robust spellcaster chassis via Dragonblood Spellpact melee fragility would be less of a concern.
...
It would be easier to drop this if we had the higher levels filled out with something more concrete.
The damage is also contingent on making the attack rolls and comes at a trickle. You'd get similar damage at range from Produce Flame and with no attack roll with Power Word: Pain.

As for filling out higher levels i'd look at Combust. It has obvious benefits (high damage for the level and no save) that make it worth it over just casting at range.
That's what a good melee touch spell should offer to make the list.

[Anthrowhale]

The damage is also contingent on making the attack rolls and comes at a trickle.
The Rules Compendium "clarifies" that all the touch attacks come with the standard action cast, so it's not at all a trickle. At caster level 20, you cast the spell and make 20 attacks as a standard action (that's quite the standard action...). Combust cannot compete.

[pabelfly]

The link to top 10 cantrips wasn't correct. Here it is again: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?657743-Top-10-cantrips

There was a thread a while back where everyone listed their best spells (here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25480197&postcount=209)), and I added up each time a spell was mentioned. All up, I think the list is pretty solid. Here's how often each spell at level 1 was mentioned:

1st Level
5 – Grease
5 – Nerveskitter
4 – Entangle
4 – Silent Image
3 – Colour Spray
3 – Power Word Pain
3 – Summon Marked Homunculus
3 – Wall of Smoke
2 – Benign Transposition
2 – Conjure Ice Beast I
2 – Conviction
2 – Ice Slick
2 – Lesser Vigor
2 – Mount
2 – Protection from Evil
2 – Protection from Good
2 – Ray of Resurgence
1 – Comprehend Languages
1 – Cure Light Wounds
1 – Disguise Self
1 – Impending Stones
1 – Improvisation
1 – Obscuring Mist
1 – Resurge
1 – Seething Eyebrain
1 – Shield of Faith
1 – Sleep
1 – Unseen Servant
1 – Backbiter

[Thunder999]

Protection from Evil has got to be in there.
Immunity to a lot of save or suck/save or lose would be great alone, but it's also good vs summoned creatures and at low level the +2 to saves and AC is actually pretty nice.

Definitely drop chill touch, it's just an ok damage spell, like maybe useful to deliver some rider effect, but really unimpressive on its own.

I think Benign Transposition probably deserves a mention, 1st level teleportation can be quite useful. Not sure what I'd drop for it though.

[Olive_Sophia]

Conviction is rightly rated. It's an amazing 1st level cleric spell, I'm finding.

I've used True Casting in a high level game when the DM kept throwing big SR monsters at us. But it probably doesn't deserve a spot.

[Zanos]

I think color spray is generally overrated for low level wizards. The range is extremely limiting and puts you within melee attack range if they make their saves. Sleep is a full round action to cast but the range is so large at level 1 that you don't have to do nearly as much finangling to safely use the spell. Also synergies well with uncanny forethought.

[Thunder999]

Colour spray is save or lose, that's worth a slightly short range, it's not like most low level encounters actually start more 60ft apart anyway.

[Troacctid]

I think color spray is generally overrated for low level wizards. The range is extremely limiting and puts you within melee attack range if they make their saves. Sleep is a full round action to cast but the range is so large at level 1 that you don't have to do nearly as much finangling to safely use the spell. Also synergies well with uncanny forethought.
Not a full-round action, but a full round, AKA it doesn't take effect until your next turn, and the enemies get a whole turn to take actions and possibly even break your concentration before then. And if you misjudge their HD, it has no effect at all, even if they fail the save.

Color spray is a lot better.

[Anthrowhale]

I think Instant of Power is really good at the low to mid levels where you still would cast level 1 spells.
Since it's an immediate action, I wouldn't be surprised if you could squeeze it in even at high level. But using it to add a bit to your attack or damage feels relatively marginal. If we are talking about 4 encounters/day and you cast one IoP per encounter, you might do an extra 4 damage per encounter, for example. That seems a bit meh? And, anyways, Kauper's Quickblast would do 5 damage as a freeswift action.

It's the save boost which really seems interesting---I'm not sure where else you can get a +4 enhancement bonus to saves.


Having a party with the same deity seems too much to ask for.
There's a cause&effect thing going on here. By default the party may not do so, but if you introduce the spell in the game, the party very well might. Also, it's somewhat ambiguous what happens when you put it on a wand and pass it around---plausibly the person triggering the wand still counts as the 'caster'.



Also agree with sleepyphoenixx about Chill Touch.
Even when you see it delivering 20 attacks in a single standard action? That's about 17x the damage that Instant of Power generates.


Well, if you judge spells over an ECL 1-20 range, then surely Resurgence becomes worth it for a significant chunk of that?
Yeah, I'm digging it. The question is: what to drop? I'm actually looking at Hand of the Faithful at the moment. It's redundant in purpose with Entangle although fairly additive by targeting Fort instead of Refl....


The link to top 10 cantrips wasn't correct.
Thanks, fixed.



There was a thread a while back where everyone listed their best spells (here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25480197&postcount=209)), and I added up each time a spell was mentioned.
Ah, thanks. Looking through the top entries MIA from the list:

Grease: I think Entangle just dominates this one. 40' radius instead > 5' radius, minute/level duration > round/level duration, and entangled > prone.
Silent Image: Definitely lots of utility here. Worth dropping something?
Summon Marked Homunculus: Decent at level 1 given the duration, but ages rapidly.
Wall of Smoke: More combat friendly than Hand of the Faithful, but a less powerful effect and not a party-friendly effect.
Benign Transposition: Mildly useful, probably not top 10.
Conjure Ice Beast 1: Ages rapidly.
Ice Slick: kinda like grease.
Lesser Vigor: see Faith Healing instead.
Mount: Buy it instead.
Protection from Evil: Definitely a good spell. The minute/level duration is off-putting, and it ends up obsolete later on.
Ray of Resurgence: negating strength damage at level 1 is nifty although Lesser Restoration (Renewal domain) is perhaps more broadly useful.
Seething Eyebane: Acid damage yourself and tank your Con? No thanks.
Shield of Faith: 1/10th the duration of Conviction is unconvincing.


Protection from Evil has got to be in there.
Immunity to a lot of save or suck/save or lose would be great alone, but it's also good vs summoned creatures and at low level the +2 to saves and AC is actually pretty nice.
My hesitation here is about the levels you would use it over, since better spells come online later. Which levels would you expect to use it over?


Definitely drop chill touch, it's just an ok damage spell, like maybe useful to deliver some rider effect, but really unimpressive on its own.
70 damage from a level 1 spell slot is ok.



I've used True Casting in a high level game when the DM kept throwing big SR monsters at us. But it probably doesn't deserve a spot.
Yeah, I've found that just increasing caster level is a more comprehensive fix to SR.


I think color spray is generally overrated for low level wizards. The range is extremely limiting and puts you within melee attack range if they make their saves. Sleep is a full round action to cast but the range is so large at level 1 that you don't have to do nearly as much finangling to safely use the spell. Also synergies well with uncanny forethought.
A substantial advantage of Color Spray is that it keeps being useful. Even in an ECL 20 environment if you are forced to use a 1st a level spell, Color Spray is potentially useful.

Of the spells mentioned as alternative candidates for top-10, I can see some case for Instant of Power, Resurgence, Lesser Restoration, Silent Image at present. The real difficulty though is in dropping something.

Edit: and Vision of Punishment.

[Zanos]

Not a full-round action, but a full round, AKA it doesn't take effect until your next turn, and the enemies get a whole turn to take actions and possibly even break your concentration before then. And if you misjudge their HD, it has no effect at all, even if they fail the save.

Color spray is a lot better.
Yeah, a full round. But I'm generally not going to put my 4-6hp wizard with 11-13 AC within 15ft of a mob that I want to get to fail a will save. Sleep works from 110ft away, starting at level 1, and doesn't require a clean LoE to not friendly fire. Misjudging the HD shouldn't be super relevant at the levels where both spells are useful, and both spells do nothing on a failed will save. If your DM is of the particularly brutal type and makes you eat every enemy ranged attack if you start casting a full round spell, I can see an argument against it, but I usually find sleep to be far more practical than color spray, considering how much easier it is to start casting a spell your first turn and then target a 10ft burst anywhere within 110 feet, than getting 15ft away from the guys trying to kill you. It's also much harder to get two enemies within a 15ft cone originating from you than it is to get two or more enemies into a 10ft spread originating anywhere within 110 ft. And since these are your first level offensive spells that do nothing on a failed save, you're usually going to want to try to get as many enemies rolling against it as possible.

If you're some kind of melee hybrid, color spray can be useful. Otherwise I'm going to cast sleep every time, since it's far more practical and safe to actually hit enemies with it.


A substantial advantage of Color Spray is that it keeps being useful. Even in an ECL 20 environment if you are forced to use a 1st a level spell, Color Spray is potentially useful.
True, but you can just not prepare sleep, and sorcerers can just trade it out when it is no longer useful. 4th level is around when sleep starts falling off.

I don't think Hand of the Faithful makes this list either. An immobile stun barrier is nice, but it's immobile. Adventurers rarely defend fixed locations and are almost always on the offensive. Maybe for camp defense, but that makes it a spell with a niche use, not a top 10 best level 1 spells, especially since the duration isn't high enough to actually cover your rest until level 4, even with extend spell.

I'll contest chill touch also. The only possible reason I can think of for it being on this list is people playing by the rule that you discharge all of your touches instantaneously, which I have never seen used in actual play.

[eggynack]

Dunno if you folks are considering Kingdoms of Kalamar, but, if so, then summon fey is the strongest first level spell. For minutes/level it lets you summon a fey of HD equal to or less than the spell's level (cause you can put it in higher level slots if ya want). Notably, the pixie is a one HD fey. A creature that gets a ton of great SLA's, including dispel magic, lesser confusion, entangle, detect thoughts, and permanent image. If you're allowed to specify stuff about your summoning, then pixies also sometimes get irresistible dance, an 8th level wizard spell. One that pixies are pretty good at using given they can be invisible all the time. You can also summon other stuff, granting access to stuff like divination, charm person, comprehend languages, and magic circle against evil. Suffice to say, it's not just the most powerful first level spell by a wide margin. It's just one of the better spells.

Anyways, snowshoes is kinda cool? It's like longstrider if it worked on every movement mode you have, and also had some weird snow specific bonuses. Dunno if it deserves a top ten spot, but it's the best spell I know about that hasn't been mentioned. Y'know, besides summon fey.

[Harrow]

I would say Sticky Floor (Sor/Wiz 1, Races of the Dragon) is better than the Druid spell Entangle. First of all, Entangle requires existing plant matter. There are workarounds, but that's a hoop you don't have to jump through for Sticky Floor. Also, a 40' radius sounds nice, but it's actually prohibitively big. I can't recall if it's ever stated in the books, but at any table I've ever played at, you can't center a spell at a spot you don't have LoE to. This means that, in a dungeon scenario, it's easy to fill the whole room with Entangle, hitting all your allies as well. Finally, Sticky Floor entangles with no save, then forces a Reflex save or be stuck to the floor, unable to move. I don't know for certain, but I would argue that the Dex penalty from being entangled would apply before the save, effectively raising the DC by 2. If a creature is Large size (or larger), you can, with some maneuvering, hit it with both Sticky Floor and Grease.

[Ramza00]

The enhancement bonus to attack or damage is initially decent, but the opportunity cost of the spell slot is high at low levels if we are operating on a 4-encounters-per-day norm.

Later the opportunity cost becomes low, but the bonus to attack and damage are subsumed by magic weapons or greater magic weapon.

That leaves the +4 to an ally's save as an immediate action. That's a decent effect---since you can effectively raise the party's saves by 4 vs. any save that can be predicted in a round.


Instant of Power is nice in a wand inside a weapon (wand chamber) due to the immediate action casting time, how it works at full power with caster level 1, and it works on you or allies within 25 feet.

[noce]

I think Resurgence deserves mention.

Seconded, it's a very solid swiss army knife removal spell, and level 1 nonetheless.
For those saying that it's better in a wand, sure, but this statement remains true: it's a spell that every cleric and paladin should know, not necessarily prepare.


I would like to throw in Instant of Power as a recommendation.

This spell is so valuable. I once played a druid from 1 to 16 and I always had a couple prepared, and managed to help my party with so many saves.
It has the same use of a defensive casting of Alter Fortune, but better:

2 spell levels earlier
no XP cost
there are no items that give you +4 enhancement to a save, while there are at least 2 that allow you to reroll a save
if the target does have such an item, the +4 bonus applies to both rolls, since they're part of the same save.


Again, every bard, druid and ranger should know this spell exists and use it often. Maybe its best use is with a wand (if you're not wildshaped), but it still remains one of the top rated 1st level spells for your entire career.


Faith Healing cures 80% of the hit points of Lesser Vigor while taking effect about 1000% faster. That seems like a good tradeoff?

You're missing the fact that Faith Healing is basically Range: personal. Never played in a party where two characters worshiped the same deity.


I don't think we can free up a slot for Instant of Power since some healing is just required for a party to function.

Disagree. Especially in combat. Especially at level 1 when all you need is Cure Minor Wounds to stabilize unconscious party members.
At later levels, all you need are wands of Lesser Vigor outside combat (and Healing Belts).




W Chill Touch (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/chillTouch.htm) Necromancy. <level> touch attacks dealing d6+Fort-or-Str damage. Beats out Parching Touch by also affecting undead (will-or-panic for 1d4+level rounds). Very solid damage for a level 1 spell although never quite killer damage.
C Hand of the Faithful. (Spell Compendium) Abjuration[alignments]. Hour/level 10' radius fort-or-stun for those not carrying symbol of deity defensive position for the entire party with a potential conversion role play bonus. The big drawback is the one minute casting time, but it's reasonably common to know in advance about the possibility of a fight.
DO Snowsight (Frostburn) Trasnmutation. You can see through snow for hour/level. This is extremely situational at ECL 1, but becomes amazing at ECL 3 when Obscuring Snow becomes available and stays useful from then on. The I-can-see-and-you-can't effect is similar to Firesight + smokesticks, but it lasts longer and is cumulative in the sense that you can use both and an adversary must counter both to see you. Overall, better than Swift Invisibility which comes online at level 1 but consumes a swift action to use, lasts a signle round, and becomes increasingly obsolete at higher levels.



Chill Touch: at low levels, it doesn't last enough hits, while at higher levels everyone is passing the save. It still remains a good spell for Duskblades and some other gishes, but I feel its uses are too niche to be considered one of the top 10 spells.
Hand of the Faithful: at low levels it's very good to defend a doorway or a specific person/item. Later, thanks to a longer duration, it can be used as a defensive "alarm" when resting, but everyone will pass the save. Again, it's a bit too niche for my tastes, it's the BEST spell only for a situational need and only at low levels.
Snowsight: are we sure we should consider this spell good because of Obscuring Snow? To me, it seems Obscuring Snow is the strong spell here, while Snowsight is just taking profit of a specific situation. Snowsight alone is garbage.

[Inevitability]

Something we've been missing so far: Enlarge Person. Perhaps the best 1st-level buff, makes your greatsword fighter's damage go from 2d6+4 to 3d6+6 while increasing their zone of control from 8 threatened and 1 occupied squares to 28 threatened and 4 occupied. Great for damage output, great for defensive purposes, remains relevant at mid to high levels because size increases stack with most things, and it's not even touch range.

It presumes a humanoid melee type to buff (though strength clerics can put it on themselves and feel good about doing so), but if "everyone in the party worships the same god" is fair game, then so is this.

edit: Also, the reading of Chill Touch as giving you all the attacks in the same round... is that how anyone has actually ran the spell at an actual table? Because I think this list would be more useful if it wasn't just a list of exclusively theoretical exploits.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Snowsight: are we sure we should consider this spell good because of Obscuring Snow? To me, it seems Obscuring Snow is the strong spell here, while Snowsight is just taking profit of a specific situation unforeseen by game developers. Snowsight alone is garbage.

Obscuring Snow explicitly mentions the combo. So it's not an unforeseen situation, it's working as intended.
You can also get nearly the same effect from Ebon Eyes (SpC) and No Light (BoVD). Or Fire Eyes (MotW) and a smoke stick. Or several other ways.
"Make LoS blocker you can ignore while your enemies can't" isn't exactly unique, the Snowsight Combo just has the advantage of long duration and being harder to counter than most.

I agree that it doesn't deserve a top 10 spot on its own though. It belongs on a top 10 list of spell combos for sure, but not on this one.

[Chronos]

I also don't think I've ever been in a party where any two party members worshiped the same deity. And among the folks I've played with, asking your allies to convert just so you can heal them slightly more efficiently is a big ask.

[Anthrowhale]

I dropped Hand of the Faithful and Chill Touch in favor of Instant of Power and Resurgence. IoP, Resurgence, and Conviction all accumulate effectively for a hefty +9 to saves with multiple saving throws. Vision of Punishment, Silent Image, and Sticky Floor are others under consideration, but I'm not sure what to drop in favor of them.

The convincing reason to drop Chill Touch is that it's not particularly capable at level 1 and there are certainly better melee touch spells later, regardless of your admission of the RC "clarification". Hand of the Faithful is situational.



True, but you can just not prepare sleep, and sorcerers can just trade it out when it is no longer useful. 4th level is around when sleep starts falling off.

For this particular effort, I'm trying to judge spells over the [1-20] interval.


Dunno if you folks are considering Kingdoms of Kalamar,
I'm not, principally due to obscurity and lack of "officialness". In essence KoK stuff was endorsed by WotC but never freely used as per Dragon/Dungeon Magazine content.

That's kinda arbitrary, I realize. I did read through your guide and noticed it. Very compelling if allowed.



Anyways, snowshoes is kinda cool? It's like longstrider if it worked on every movement mode you have, and also had some weird snow specific bonuses.
I think the question is: what should be dropped in favor of it?


I would say Sticky Floor (Sor/Wiz 1, Races of the Dragon) is better than the Druid spell Entangle.
Sticky Floor is quite good. It's a massively longer duration than Grease with the same area and entangled is a better effect than prone. In fact, in many situations it's to long. If you use it in a battle to block some passage, then you don't go down the passage or you need flight.

The centering of Entangle is a real issue though, as you suggest...



You're missing the fact that Faith Healing is basically Range: personal. Never played in a party where two characters worshiped the same deity.

And again, there's a cause and effect issue. If there's no point in coordinating the same deity, why would anyone bother? If there is a point, why wouldn't people bother?



Disagree. Especially in combat. Especially at level 1 when all you need is Cure Minor Wounds to stabilize unconscious party members.
You can stabilize fairly reliable with the heal skill so CMW seems kinda meh for that purpose.


At later levels, all you need are wands of Lesser Vigor outside combat (and Healing Belts).
Or wands of Faith Healing. Only 80% as efficient, but they also address dying->awake rather than merely dying->stable.



Hand of the Faithful: at low levels it's very good to defend a doorway or a specific person/item. Later, thanks to a longer duration, it can be used as a defensive "alarm" when resting, but everyone will pass the save.
W.r.t. the save at least, there's quite a bit that can be done with spells to elevate saves.



Snowsight alone is garbage.

This is a tough one to judge since it's the combo which matters.


Something we've been missing so far: Enlarge Person.
It is a great buff, particularly the increase in reach. I haven't included it here because the value falls off a cliff later and I wouldn't know what to replace in the current top-10.


Something we've been missing so far: Enlarge Person.
edit: Also, the reading of Chill Touch as giving you all the attacks in the same round... is that how anyone has actually ran the spell at an actual table? Because I think this list would be more useful if it wasn't just a list of exclusively theoretical exploits.[/QUOTE]
My understanding is that Troacctid does. It might be interesting to have a survey.



"Make LoS blocker you can ignore while your enemies can't" isn't exactly unique, the Snowsight Combo just has the advantage of long duration and being harder to counter than most.
And it's mobile, hence action-free. The Nolight combo is bypassed by darkvision which basically everyone gets. The Firesight combo requires deploying smokesticks which takes actions.


I agree that it doesn't deserve a top 10 spot on its own though. It belongs on a top 10 list of spell combos for sure, but not on this one.
I'm less sure here. The combo is very good for 18 levels, plausibly worth a first and second level spell slot.

[sleepyphoenixx]

And again, there's a cause and effect issue. If there's no point in coordinating the same deity, why would anyone bother? If there is a point, why wouldn't people bother?
There's no shortage of reasons why characters wouldn't have the same deity.
For pretty much any spellcasting class choosing a god that fits their build is the better - or even the only - option.

Wizards want Boccob or the equivalent for the Tome of Ancient Lore or domain ACFs.
Clerics want to pick a god with good domains, have to decide between turn/rebuke and how some spells work.
Druids are generally limited to nature gods and also have to think of alignment restrictions, both on their class and their spells, or that Mielikki lets you freely use metal armor.
The paladin can't be anything but LG (unless it's a variant, but the only official ones are evil). If you want to use one of the substitution levels you're forced to pick a specific god.

And all that's before even starting on prestige class and feat requirements.



I'm less sure here. The combo is very good for 18 levels, plausibly worth a first and second level spell slot.
I don't disagree that it's worth the spell slots. I just think a spell should be judged on its own merits for a top 10 spot unless it's for a list of spell combos.

[Fero]

Ah, thanks. Looking through the top entries MIA from the list:

Grease: I think Entangle just dominates this one. 40' radius instead > 5' radius, minute/level duration > round/level duration, and entangled > prone.
Silent Image: Definitely lots of utility here. Worth dropping something?
Summon Marked Homunculus: Decent at level 1 given the duration, but ages rapidly.
. . .
Benign Transposition: Mildly useful, probably not top 10.


Grease has two advantages over entangle: 1) based on the fluff description and school (Tra) Entangle arguably only works in an area with plant life; and (2) Grease does not always allow a save.

Silent Image is probably the best first level spell in the game. It can end encounters, by itself, all the way from 1-20. Of course, as an illusion it is limited by imagination/ DMs who don't like illusions. Note, Treatmonk's wizard guide also lists Silent Image as a/the best 1st level wizard spell and I believe this sentiment is widespread.

Summon Marked Homonculus is crazy powerful, even at higher levels, for a few reasons. First, the duration is long enough that you can easily build an army of these things, especially when you get Extend MM and Mnemonic Enhancer. Second, it gives a number of powerful utility options. Notably, the Expeditious Messenger allows at will two way communication up to 1 mile fir the duration (1 hr/lvl). This is very powerful for a level 1 spell.

Benign Transposition is also very good. Teleportation is one of the best and most broadly useful abilities in the game. Benign Transposition is the lowest level teleport, and a good one to boot. Combine with a flying familiar to get to locations you otherwise could not access at level 1. Switch your squishy wizard with the party beefcake to counter an enemy flank. As Silent Image, the uses for this spell are virtually unlimited.

*********
A few other lvl 1 spells of note (excluding PrC spell lists and not treating psionic powers as spells):

Charm Person: crazy good if you have the Cha to win the opposed checks.

Goodberry: Efficient healing and can drastically reduce party encumbrance by providing food.

Rhino's Rush: double damage on a charge. Simple and powerful.

Raptor's Sight: two good daylong buffs for a single spell slot.

[eggynack]

I'm not, principally due to obscurity and lack of "officialness". In essence KoK stuff was endorsed by WotC but never freely used as per Dragon/Dungeon Magazine content.
A tragedy greater than any man has otherwise experienced. That spell is borked as hell.



I think the question is: what should be dropped in favor of it?
Maybe instant of power? Like, the proposition in either case is that you're getting a no action cost benefit out of a first level slot, which has clear utility at higher levels. So the question is whether you'd prefer a one off +4 to saves, or an all day speed boost. A speed boost that notably transfers from one movement mode to another, which is rather important when you have access to all the movement modes later in the game. Really appreciate its fire and forget nature. You can also target other people which is kinda fun. Instant of power is real cool though. Lotta value on that one.

[Crichton]

Since it seems you're editing the initial post as the feedback comes in, would it be possible to include a 'changelog' of sorts at the bottom of the initial post, so we readers can see how the list has changed and why, at a glance?

[Gnaeus]

Grease has two advantages over entangle: 1) based on the fluff description and school (Tra) Entangle arguably only works in an area with plant life; and (2) Grease does not always allow a save.

More than that. Grease is also useful as a Save or Suck (a reflex disabler against weapon users), and as a counter to a common attack type (grapple), and as a utility spell (oh, the trap door is stuck? grease Need to escape chains? grease We need to push this heavy thing? grease).

[sleepyphoenixx]

More than that. Grease is also useful as a Save or Suck (a reflex disabler against weapon users), and as a counter to a common attack type (grapple), and as a utility spell (oh, the trap door is stuck? grease Need to escape chains? grease We need to push this heavy thing? grease).

It also causes enemies in the area who don't have 5 ranks in balance to be flat-footed, no save. And forces a new balance check to remain standing every time they get damaged.

[Rebel7284]

One quick comment is that you have Transmutation spelled three different ways.

For certain builds, Strength of the True Form can be REAL broken, but admittedly very niche.

Summon Marked Homunculus is broken at early levels, admittedly requires a dragonmark

[Thunder999]

My hesitation here is about the levels you would use it over, since better spells come online later. Which levels would you expect to use it over?
I do eventually switch to Magic Circle, but there's a lot of other 3rd level spells I want on most characters, so fitting in more than one cast of that is hard, wheras I usually end up with 1st level slots to burn.


70 damage from a level 1 spell slot is ok.
70 damage all in one go would be pretty amazing, but that's not what Chill Touch does, Chill Touch gives you one 1d6 touch attack per CL, so sure it eventually does 20d6 total, at level 20, but not only am I not relying on 1st level spells for damage at 20 (and 70 really isn't that much compared to monster hp by then), but that's split over 20 attacks, which is going to take forever to actually dish out, so it's functionally far worse.
It's actually closer to 1d6/round, eating your standard action each round, oh and this is melee so you're not using it to safely wear something down.

Yeah, I've found that just increasing caster level is a more comprehensive fix to SR.

Getting a +10 CL is not easy, Divine Spellpower+Prayer Bead of Karma is only a +8, and those are unusually high boosts. Oh sure there's nonsense like Circle Magic and Consumptive Field, but those are rarely allowed.

[Zanos]

For this particular effort, I'm trying to judge spells over the [1-20] interval.
I don't think that's a particularly useful way to actually grade 1st level spells. Conviction for example is certainly a good spell, but are you going to use a substantial portion of your spell slots at first level to give one person a +2 to their saving throws? It seems pretty unlikely to me. If I have 3rd and 4th slots kicking around, it's also pretty unlikely that I'm going to cast sleep or color spray, because 1st level slots just fall off after a certain amount of time due to various issues with them; a wizard shouldn't be walking next to ogres or trolls to hit them with a spell that no longer has a great chance of disabling them do to DCs scaling primarily with spell level. If you actually are thinking about casting color spray past level 7 or so, there's a very good chance that something is either seriously wrong with your tactics or you are about to die anyway. I think a spell that completely dominates 1-3 like sleep does deserves a slot, because the first picks for first level spells should be spells that are useful at low levels, not spells that are useful at level 10 or 20 when your level 1 slots should primarily be buffs and utility, not offense.


I would say Sticky Floor (Sor/Wiz 1, Races of the Dragon) is better than the Druid spell Entangle. First of all, Entangle requires existing plant matter. There are workarounds, but that's a hoop you don't have to jump through for Sticky Floor. Also, a 40' radius sounds nice, but it's actually prohibitively big. I can't recall if it's ever stated in the books, but at any table I've ever played at, you can't center a spell at a spot you don't have LoE to. This means that, in a dungeon scenario, it's easy to fill the whole room with Entangle, hitting all your allies as well. Finally, Sticky Floor entangles with no save, then forces a Reflex save or be stuck to the floor, unable to move. I don't know for certain, but I would argue that the Dex penalty from being entangled would apply before the save, effectively raising the DC by 2. If a creature is Large size (or larger), you can, with some maneuvering, hit it with both Sticky Floor and Grease.

The reason that entangle is is strong is that, while the spell is situational, the situation it is useful in is both common and the spell is enormously powerful in that situation. The area of effect of entangle is so enormous that it can completely shut down basically any outdoor encounter with melee creatures, which is going to be a lot of encounters. The spell is not particularly useful in barren interiors though, so druids should probably prepare something else in those situations.


As for sticky floor vs grease, these spells have different uses. Grease is most useful when applied to a melee choke because standing up provokes an aoo and inflicts substantial melee debuffs, passing out tons and tons of free damage to your frontline. Sticky Floor is useful at cutting off an enemy approach, but grease can do that a bit as well as massively swinging a melee fight. So I'm usually going to prepare grease over sticky floor, unless i'm at exactly level 1 when the difference in duration matters, or my frontline is particularly anemic at killing stuff.

[Anthrowhale]

There's no shortage of reasons why characters wouldn't have the same deity.
Ok... maybe Lesser Vigor instead.



I don't disagree that it's worth the spell slots. I just think a spell should be judged on its own merits for a top 10 spot unless it's for a list of spell combos.
If you are trying to pick spells, the combos available to a spell do seem relevant.


Entangle arguably only works in an area with plant life
And what if you bring plants with you?



Silent Image is probably the best first level spell in the game.

Definitely a good spell.



Notably, the Expeditious Messenger allows at will two way communication up to 1 mile fir the duration (1 hr/lvl). This is very powerful for a level 1 spell.

Good for a level 1 spell, but at higher levels I'm more skeptical given alternatives like Telepathic Bond.



Benign Transposition is also very good.

I agree it's good.



Charm Person: crazy good if you have the Cha to win the opposed checks.

I considered this but dropped it in favor of Diplomancy which is more universal.



Goodberry: Efficient healing and can drastically reduce party encumbrance by providing food.

I'm more skeptical here. Food isn't that heavy.



Rhino's Rush: double damage on a charge. Simple and powerful.

It's decent, but charging is a situational tactic.



Raptor's Sight: two good daylong buffs for a single spell slot.
Yep.

What would you drop in favor of the above, and why?



Maybe instant of power? Like, the proposition in either case is that you're getting a no action cost benefit out of a first level slot, which has clear utility at higher levels. So the question is whether you'd prefer a one off +4 to saves, or an all day speed boost.
There are two difficulties with the argument: (1) the enhancement bonus to saves is unique and hence cumulative while the enhancement bonus to speed is not cumulative with many other sources. (2) It might look like a one-off +4 to saves, but since it's an immediate action it's sort of "virtually" applied to all party members at all times when the spellcaster has an immediate action available.

[eggynack]

There are two difficulties with the argument: (1) the enhancement bonus to saves is unique and hence cumulative while the enhancement bonus to speed is not cumulative with many other sources.
Pertinent if you're buffing your speed by other means, I guess, but I dunno how often I wanna be doing that. Like, what buffs are we actually talking about that are in competition with snowshoes?

(2) It might look like a one-off +4 to saves, but since it's an immediate action it's sort of "virtually" applied to all party members at all times when the spellcaster has an immediate action available.
I'm aware you can use it whenever it's most apparently advantageous, but it's still a one off. The speed, by contrast, is actually always on. Anyways, I'm not saying snowshoes is definitely better. Save buffs are nice. I just like snowshoes a bunch. Such a clean bonus.

[noce]

Pertinent if you're buffing your speed by other means, I guess, but I dunno how often I wanna be doing that. Like, what buffs are we actually talking about that are in competition with snowshoes?

Monk, Scout and Dervish all get an enhancement bonus to land speed. Please note that Scout and Dervish in particular are maybe the two classes that benefit most from speed bonus in the entire 3.5.
Ronove Vestige, Absolute Steel Stance, Heart of Fire, Longstrider, Mass Longstrider and Primal Speed all give you an enhancement bonus to land speed.
Boots of Striding and Springing, Boots of Skating, Sandals of Sprinting, Sandals of the Light Step, Acrobat Boots, Boots of Desperation, Boots of Unending Journey, Boots of the Wanderer, Quickness armor enhancement and Panther Mask all give an enhancement bonus to land speed.
I surely have missed some.

Chances are, if you need a reliable source of bonus speed, by the time Snowshoes lasts long enough you'll have another source of enhancement bonus.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Snowshoes is nice, but i don't think it's impactful enough to warrant a top 10 spot.
It's something you cast once you have the slots to spare because why not, but a minor speed bonus just isn't that valuable compared to the spells it's competing against.


If you are trying to pick spells, the combos available to a spell do seem relevant.

To an extent, sure. But if a spell only really has value when combined with another, higher level spell it belongs in the entry of that spell, not a top 10 spot of its own.
And without a way to make your own long-lasting, moves-with-you snow bubble Snowsight is incredibly situational and just not that great.

[Chronos]

On thinking about it more, I think the premise of this thread is inherently flawed. It's not really possible, nor is it desirable, to rank spells over the full range of level 1-20. There's going to be almost no overlap between the spells that are best at low levels, when they're your primary tools, and the spells that are best at high levels, when you have other primary tools and so your low-level slots are for utility. And spellcasters will change their spell lists anyway: Even spells-known casters like sorcerers can still swap out some of their spells. A level 10 caster has no reason to care that a particular spell is good at shutting down low-level monsters: They'll want the list of spells that are good at high levels. And likewise, a level 3 caster can't afford to spend spell slots on generic utility: They'll want the list of spells that are good at low levels.

[eggynack]

Monk, Scout and Dervish all get an enhancement bonus to land speed. Please note that Scout and Dervish in particular are maybe the two classes that benefit most from speed bonus in the entire 3.5.
Ronove Vestige, Absolute Steel Stance, Heart of Fire, Longstrider, Mass Longstrider and Primal Speed all give you an enhancement bonus to land speed.
Boots of Striding and Springing, Boots of Skating, Sandals of Sprinting, Sandals of the Light Step, Acrobat Boots, Boots of Desperation, Boots of Unending Journey, Boots of the Wanderer, Quickness armor enhancement and Panther Mask all give an enhancement bonus to land speed.
I surely have missed some.
Okay, yeah, if this is the list then snowshoes is pretty great. Two things of import here are, first, that the central utility I'm talking about is self-buffing, and, second, that land speed is only part of the equation relative to boosting every movement mode. I mean, one of the main things you're after here is that boost to flight speed, and the fact that you can also hit your swimming, burrowing, and I guess climbing speeds is a really nice benefit on top of that. These demands relate to each other because a caster gets a lot of utility from all those movement modes getting buffed, especially in such a way that you can swap from one to another and be continuously buffed.

So, most of this list doesn't really do the thing. Primal speed and heart of fire are the closest to relevant, being spells, but the former is mostly pretty mediocre, and the latter is a bit less mediocre but has the limitation on the movement modes it applies to. The items have the downside of, y'know, being items and taking up money/slots, but, more critically, are mostly either land speed locked and/or have uses per day. Boots of the unending journey seem like the closest match, so I suppose the actual point of comparison is between a first level spell and a 4k GP foot slotted item. I feel like snowshoes does pretty well in that comparison, and also all the other comparisons.


Snowshoes is nice, but i don't think it's impactful enough to warrant a top 10 spot.
It's something you cast once you have the slots to spare because why not, but a minor speed bonus just isn't that valuable compared to the spells it's competing against.
As Chronos is indicating, it really depends on level. At first level, no, you will likely never cast the funny speed boosting spell over all the critical combat oriented spells you have access to. At somewhat later levels though, it's going to be a better pick than the majority of the list. You're just not all that likely to be casting a heartache or whatever when you could be using 5th level spells to deal with opponents. There are essentially two kinds of spells out there. The in-combat spells that are, at that moment, worth your time relative to what you're getting out of that time, and the low action cost options that you cast when the value of a given slot has been reduced below the amount of time it takes to use it. Snowshoes is quite good in the latter category.

[Fero]

I agree with the comments above that we cannot identify the "best" spells because the word "best" is vague. However, we can somewhat define the term "best" by answering the following:

1. Does best refer to spells that shine brightly at certain levels or spells that shine less brightly over a longer level range? For example, Sleep dominates at very low levels but quickly loses its luster. Silent Image is less powerful at level 1, but remains useful through level 20.

2. Does best refer to spells that are broadly useful to most builds or to spells that are powerful with specific builds/combos. For example, Nerve Skitter is broadly useful to most builds. By contrast, Snow Sight is a niche utility spell that only becomes broken in combination with other spells.

3. How much weight do we give spells for being "neccesary?" For example, must the list include a healing spell because healing is critical to adventuring?

4. Similarly, are we looking at how important the spell is to memorize or how important it is to the game world. For example, Identify is an essential spell. However, many parties rely on items/spellcasting services to cast Identify. Is it one of the "best" spells because it is essential, or does it not make the list because it is seldom worth memorizing?

This list is just illustarative. Ultimately, I just think we need to better define "best" to come up with a list of the 10 best spells.

[Anthrowhale]

More than that. Grease is also useful as a Save or Suck (a reflex disabler against weapon users), and as a counter to a common attack type (grapple), and as a utility spell (oh, the trap door is stuck? grease Need to escape chains? grease We need to push this heavy thing? grease).


It also causes enemies in the area who don't have 5 ranks in balance to be flat-footed, no save. And forces a new balance check to remain standing every time they get damaged.
It's a fair point that Grease has other uses. Do you think it's better enough to replace Entangle? Or something else?


One quick comment is that you have Transmutation spelled three different ways.
Fixed.


For certain builds, Strength of the True Form can be REAL broken, but admittedly very niche.
Where?


Summon Marked Homunculus is broken at early levels, admittedly requires a dragonmark
I'm not really understanding the 'broken' here.


I do eventually switch to Magic Circle, but there's a lot of other 3rd level spells I want on most characters, so fitting in more than one cast of that is hard, wheras I usually end up with 1st level slots to burn.
The duration is offputting. At low levels it's a single encounter and an action tax in many cases. At higher levels it might stretch but there are better effects.



70 damage all in one go would be pretty amazing,

That's what RC says.



Getting a +10 CL is not easy, Divine Spellpower+Prayer Bead of Karma is only a +8, and those are unusually high boosts. Oh sure there's nonsense like Circle Magic and Consumptive Field, but those are rarely allowed.
Consumptive Field may be overpowered, but it's definitely available.


I don't think that's a particularly useful way to actually grade 1st level spells. Conviction for example is certainly a good spell, but are you going to use a substantial portion of your spell slots at first level to give one person a +2 to their saving throws?

Instant of Power starts looking better in this sense as it kicks in with a +4.

How to judge is a good question to ask.


Pertinent if you're buffing your speed by other means, I guess, but I dunno how often I wanna be doing that. Like, what buffs are we actually talking about that are in competition with snowshoes?

Snowshoes is definitely good. I guess I don't have experience where it's a really key spell.



To an extent, sure. But if a spell only really has value when combined with another, higher level spell it belongs in the entry of that spell, not a top 10 spot of its own.
It sounds like an argument to cheat on the 10 constraint. "Prioritize harder".

More later.

[eggynack]

Snowshoes is definitely good. I guess I don't have experience where it's a really key spell.

I dunno that it's really key, precisely. It's just nice. You're never going to not want a bit more speed, and snowshoes is one of the more efficient options for providing it. Also, it does combo with cloud wings, so one of the other good speed modifiers actually does interact fine with it. Also, it's bonus nice with something like, say, octopus tree or yellow musk creeper, what with their ridiculously low base speeds.

[sleepyphoenixx]

It's a fair point that Grease has other uses. Do you think it's better enough to replace Entangle? Or something else?
It's hard to say since they're both good. And you usually only have access to one or the other anyway.
I'd probably have to favor Grease just because it's usable pretty much anywhere, few enemies have ranks in Balance and making opponents flat-footed never goes out of style.

But Entangle's huge area and long duration make it a very difficult choice.


It sounds like an argument to cheat on the 10 constraint. "Prioritize harder".

It's more that Obscuring Snow is a really good spell if you can see through it, but Snowsight is just one (attractively simple) way of doing that. The main power of the combo definitely comes from OS here.

It'd be different if we were talking about a spell that grants blindsight, where the combo condition is a more loose "pretty much anything that blocks LoS" and it also lets you see through BFC you're likely to encounter, but Snowsight is too specific for that.

[Anthrowhale]

1. Does best refer to spells that shine brightly at certain levels or spells that shine less brightly over a longer level range? For example, Sleep dominates at very low levels but quickly loses its luster. Silent Image is less powerful at level 1, but remains useful through level 20.

I was imagining some kind of uniform average of utility over a level 1-20 build, but perhaps that's to abstract? There are two limits: ECL2 and ECL20.



2. Does best refer to spells that are broadly useful to most builds or to spells that are powerful with specific builds/combos. For example, Nerve Skitter is broadly useful to most builds. By contrast, Snow Sight is a niche utility spell that only becomes broken in combination with other spells.

I believe we should include combos. The key observation here is that there are many ways to get off-list spells. Furthermore, the utility here is in some sense listing key power-combos.



3. How much weight do we give spells for being "neccesary?" For example, must the list include a healing spell because healing is critical to adventuring?

Quite a bit. As an extreme, let's assume no one has access to spells not on the lists. Erring towards completeness seems the right bias and 10 is actually quite a large number of spells per level. Of course, skills exist and can displace spells to some extent (or vice-versa).



4. Similarly, are we looking at how important the spell is to memorize or how important it is to the game world. For example, Identify is an essential spell. However, many parties rely on items/spellcasting services to cast Identify. Is it one of the "best" spells because it is essential, or does it not make the list because it is seldom worth memorizing?

Identify is an interesting case, because spellcraft (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#spellcraft) can duplicate it for free, and it's feasible to do so in the mid-levels.



This list is just illustarative. Ultimately, I just think we need to better define "best" to come up with a list of the 10 best spells.
These are good questions which pin down things well. I'll add them to the OP and split the list into ones for ECL 2 and 20.


I dunno that it's really key, precisely. It's just nice.
Agreed that it's nice. Maybe a good entry for the ECL20 list?



I'd probably have to favor Grease just because it's usable pretty much anywhere, few enemies have ranks in Balance and making opponents flat-footed never goes out of style.

But Entangle's huge area and long duration make it a very difficult choice.
Let's break out into ECL 2 vs. 20 and see where things are.



It's more that Obscuring Snow is a really good spell if you can see through it, but Snowsight is just one (attractively simple) way of doing that. The main power of the combo definitely comes from OS here.
I mostly agree, except that it's also attractively simple, long-lasting, and low-level.

[pabelfly]

I think a best-of list should be split into two: low-level (say, below level 5 or whatever), and beyond low-level, say, level 5 and over. And, to be clear, level 5 is just a rough suggestion. And the reason I say this is because the reasons people use spell slots, and what else a player can do during their turn besides using a level 1 spell, can vary greatly between low level and high level. At low level, a first-level spell can be powerful, relatively speaking. At higher levels, you have more options so level 1 spell slots need long-term utility or can be cast as support without interrupting use of your more powerful spells.

[Anthrowhale]

I finished rejiggering the ECL2&20 lists---please take a look. There's a fair bit of divergence between the lists now and I added in some spells which are particularly compelling in the lower levels and took some (like Conviction) out.

There's still a lingering BFC question. Which is best? And should it be more than one?
Grease: 10' square round/level reflex or prone each round, balance check to move, fail by 5->prone. Alternatively, escape grapple. Alternatively, disarm.
Ice Slick: 20' square round/level balance check or prone. Synergizes with Snowshoes which provides immunity.
Entangle: 40' radius minute/level stuck and Entangled Refl half speed. Requires plants in the area.
Impeding Stones: 40 radius minute/level Refl or prone each round + -2 attack debuff.
Sticky Floor: 10' square hour/level Stuck Refl Entangled.

There's also the Snowshoes debate. The speed for which this is most relevant is flight since going 3d is handy. Heart of Air might be on the list for L2 spells and provides the same bonus there. I'm not sure it will make the list, but this seems worth revisiting later.

Am I missing anything?


I think a best-of list should be split into two:
Is the current split (ECL2 & 20) satisfying? These seem particularly concrete.

Oh, and on the sleep vs. color spray question, I definitely favor color spray. Volunteering for enemies to go first and providing an incentive to be attacked means you are hoping enemies can't prioritize well.

[pabelfly]

Is the current split (ECL2 & 20) satisfying? These seem particularly concrete.

I'm pretty happy with this split. I think a lot of the discussion here was centred around different levels of play and what levels were most valued, and I think this solves that problem quite well.

[Anthrowhale]

FYI, I swapped in Loresong (Dragon #335) on the ECL20 list.

[aglondier]

Coming in from Pathfinder as I am, I have to suggest...

Snapdragon Fireworks...early on, you cast it and it fires off a 5' diameter blast each round without requiring concentration, allowing you to get in an extra spell each round while still causing damage. And it has a huge range (long 400' + 40'/level), because it creates fireworks originally intended to be shot into the sky. And, it leaves your target Dazzled as well. It also dodges around intervening persons and terrain on its way to the target.

Secure Grimoire...expensive in terms of effectively wasting a 1st level slot each day, but given that it places your spellbook out of harms way, potentially priceless. You memorise your spells for the day, then cast this to hide your spellbook away indefinitely. The next time you need the book, usually the next morning, you speak the word and your spellbook appears in your hand ready to use. How many low level wizards have been impoverished by the DM damaging or stealing their spellbook? No longer!

[Anthrowhale]

Coming in from Pathfinder as I am, I have to suggest...

Snapdragon Fireworks...early on, you cast it and it fires off a 5' diameter blast each round without requiring concentration, allowing you to get in an extra spell each round while still causing damage. And it has a huge range (long 400' + 40'/level), because it creates fireworks originally intended to be shot into the sky. And, it leaves your target Dazzled as well. It also dodges around intervening persons and terrain on its way to the target.

Secure Grimoire...expensive in terms of effectively wasting a 1st level slot each day, but given that it places your spellbook out of harms way, potentially priceless. You memorise your spells for the day, then cast this to hide your spellbook away indefinitely. The next time you need the book, usually the next morning, you speak the word and your spellbook appears in your hand ready to use. How many low level wizards have been impoverished by the DM damaging or stealing their spellbook? No longer!

Both of these seem nice, but I'll stick with 3.5 for this exercise. In essence, just thinking about all the 3.5 spells seems quite difficult.

[Harrow]

Not trying to complicate things too much further, but what about more obscure lists? The Trapsmith prestige class gets Haste as a 1st level spell, which you can hypothetically gain access to early on other classes, such as Artificers by making scrolls or casting the Spell Storing Item infusion or an Archivist if any of various arcane-spells-as-divine tricks are allowed. It's not fantastic at level 2 specifically, but by level 3 it seems more than competitive with most 1st level spells and I don't think there's ever a point where Haste becomes not worth a 1st level slot.

[Anthrowhale]

Not trying to complicate things too much further, but what about more obscure lists? The Trapsmith prestige class gets Haste as a 1st level spell, which you can hypothetically gain access to early on other classes, such as Artificers by making scrolls or casting the Spell Storing Item infusion or an Archivist if any of various arcane-spells-as-divine tricks are allowed. It's not fantastic at level 2 specifically, but by level 3 it seems more than competitive with most 1st level spells and I don't think there's ever a point where Haste becomes not worth a 1st level slot.

It's a good question.

In general, I'm assuming access to NPCs of a similar or lower level than the characters. Hence, it could not appear on the ECL2 list. It could appear on the ECL20 list. What would you drop for it though? It would probably need to be an attack spell, so Vision of Punishment, Heartache, or Entangle, since losing out on the save spells (conviction, resurgence, instant of power), the skill spells (improvisation, loresong), going first (Nerveskitter), or not being seen (Snowsight+Obscuring Snow combo) seems like a bad idea.

[Harrow]

I would drop Heartache, easily. At higher levels, the save to resist a 1st level spell is trivial, and from level 1 being [Mind-Affecting] really hurts it's general applicability.

[Zanos]

With the list being split out I'll once again suggest that sleep replace color spray at level 1. Walking into near-melee to leverage color sprays 15 foot cone is not a good idea on a wizard, and sleep will probably get more targets.


I would drop Heartache, easily. At higher levels, the save to resist a 1st level spell is trivial, and from level 1 being [Mind-Affecting] really hurts it's general applicability.
I think the forums generally exaggerate how common immunities are to mind-affecting. Unless you're fighting undead, plants, and constructs mind-affecting stuff should work. Maybe for some DMs all high level encounters are geared and buffed like PCs but that hasn't been my experience. If you look at the actual printed monsters at higher CRs, you won't find too many that just get mind-affecting immunity for free.

[Anthrowhale]

I would drop Heartache, easily. At higher levels, the save to resist a 1st level spell is trivial, and from level 1 being [Mind-Affecting] really hurts it's general applicability.

Well, suppose an anthropomorphic bat is a spontaneous cleric who takes a level of Shaper of Form to change race to a silverbrow human then pays for a sorcerer to Dragonblood Spellpact[Dragonblood Spellpact], then uses Dragonblood Spellpact[Suffer the Flesh] and Dragonblood Spellpact[Owl's Insight]. The cleric then, at ECL 20, casts Persistent Suffer the Flesh raising caster level to 25, uses a prayer bead to lift it to caster level 29 which becomes caster level 30 for evil spells (since the cleric has the evil domain). At this point the cleric casts Persistent Consumptive Field and uses it to increase caster level to 45. Then the cleric casts Persistent Greater Consumptive Field. The very conservative view here is that the greater consumptive field does not accumulate with the first, so you can "only" add another +15 to caster level, leading to caster level 60. After that, the cleric casts Owl's Insight. The result is a wisdom of: 70=24(base)+5(level)+5(inherent)+6(enhance)+30(ins ight) which implies the saving throw for Heartache is 41=10(base)+1(level)+30(wisdom). A Balor has a will save of +19 (95% fail), a pit fiend is +21 (95% fail), and a wyrm black dragon is +23 (85% fail), and none of these are immune to mind-affecting.

Often when I point things out like this, people protest that it's cheese. That doesn't seem like the right response here because it's simply a straightforward (and even conservative) application of spells as intended. What is certainly true is that this is overpowered compared to game expectations, but "overpowered" seems almost inevitable if we are picking the top few spells of thousands and using them reasonably intelligently.

So, should we take into account the value of Heartache in the context of reasonably intelligent use of the top spells we are trying to identify? Or trying to think of each spell in the list under the assumption that other spell choices are taken in a more random fashion? The former is more coherent, but the latter may be closer to existing game play.

[Harrow]

I think the forums generally exaggerate how common immunities are to mind-affecting. Unless you're fighting undead, plants, and constructs mind-affecting stuff should work. Maybe for some DMs all high level encounters are geared and buffed like PCs but that hasn't been my experience. If you look at the actual printed monsters at higher CRs, you won't find too many that just get mind-affecting immunity for free.

You're forgetting Vermin and Oozes, as well as anyone who can get a Mind Blank effect on them. Or Deformity (madness).



(stuff)


There are a few things here I could pick out to take issue with, but I think I'm going to prioritize the fact that Owl's Insight lasts for 1 hour and cannot be persisted. What do you do if you're attacked or forced to fight during the other 23 hours of the day?

[Anthrowhale]

There are a few things here I could pick out to take issue with, but I think I'm going to prioritize the fact that Owl's Insight lasts for 1 hour and cannot be persisted. What do you do if you're attacked or forced to fight during the other 23 hours of the day?
Well you could play with ocular spell for persistent spell eligibility or just use a rod of extend spell and 3 slots for 6 hour/day coverage. (Note also that +30 to wisdom adds about +4 spell slots of each level.)

[Zanos]

You're forgetting Vermin and Oozes, as well as anyone who can get a Mind Blank effect on them. Or Deformity (madness).
Vermin and Oozes are not particularly challenging threats. They're mindless beat sticks or dungeon hazards.

If your DM is frequently handing out 8th level spell effects or 80K+ items to all the encounters I dunno what to tell you. I don't see this as being any different than saying that acid damage is bad because maybe all your fights come prebuffed with elemental immunity(acid). I don't think acid damage is bad because there's a 7th level spell that makes you immune to acid.

I've never seen deformity(madness) used by anyone, but I guess that one could at least feasibly show up on evil cultists or something.


Well, suppose an anthropomorphic bat is a spontaneous cleric who takes a level of Shaper of Form to change race to a silverbrow human then pays for a sorcerer to Dragonblood Spellpact[Dragonblood Spellpact], then uses Dragonblood Spellpact[Suffer the Flesh] and Dragonblood Spellpact[Owl's Insight]. The cleric then, at ECL 20, casts Persistent Suffer the Flesh raising caster level to 25, uses a prayer bead to lift it to caster level 29 which becomes caster level 30 for evil spells (since the cleric has the evil domain). At this point the cleric casts Persistent Consumptive Field and uses it to increase caster level to 45. Then the cleric casts Persistent Greater Consumptive Field. The very conservative view here is that the greater consumptive field does not accumulate with the first, so you can "only" add another +15 to caster level, leading to caster level 60. After that, the cleric casts Owl's Insight. The result is a wisdom of: 70=24(base)+5(level)+5(inherent)+6(enhance)+30(ins ight) which implies the saving throw for Heartache is 41=10(base)+1(level)+30(wisdom). A Balor has a will save of +19 (95% fail), a pit fiend is +21 (95% fail), and a wyrm black dragon is +23 (85% fail), and none of these are immune to mind-affecting.

Often when I point things out like this, people protest that it's cheese. That doesn't seem like the right response here because it's simply a straightforward (and even conservative) application of spells as intended. What is certainly true is that this is overpowered compared to game expectations, but "overpowered" seems almost inevitable if we are picking the top few spells of thousands and using them reasonably intelligently.

So, should we take into account the value of Heartache in the context of reasonably intelligent use of the top spells we are trying to identify? Or trying to think of each spell in the list under the assumption that other spell choices are taken in a more random fashion? The former is more coherent, but the latter may be closer to existing game play.

I think this is a pretty extreme scenario to evaluate a spell under. I'd just say it's a 1st level spell, and just because it can't one shot the CR=ECL encounter that the whole party is meant to overcome with an overwhelming success rate doesn't make it useless, and not every encounter is going to be against a single mob of CR=ECL.

I would normally consider a caster at level 20 as having a score of 36(18 base, 2 racial, 5 levels, 5 tome/wish, 6 enhancement). Not 70 because owls insight exists and CL buffs can be abused. The spell is still useful in that scenario against many monsters, just not the nastiest ones.


Furthermore, replace color spray with sleep. :smalltongue:

[Harrow]

Vermin and Oozes are not particularly challenging threats. They're mindless beat sticks or dungeon hazards.

If your DM is frequently handing out 8th level spell effects or 80K+ items to all the encounters I dunno what to tell you. I don't see this as being any different than saying that acid damage is bad because maybe all your fights come prebuffed with elemental immunity(acid). I don't think acid damage is bad because there's a 7th level spell that makes you immune to acid.

I've never seen deformity(madness) used by anyone, but I guess that one could at least feasibly show up on evil cultists or something.


First of all, isn't That Damn Crab just a "mindless beatstick"? Isn't the Tarrasque supposed to be played as such? Just because something can't teleport or see invisible doesn't mean it can't ruin at least one party member's day if it gets a hold of them when you can't do anything about it.

Also, your argument is inconsistent. You seem to start off with "Why bother preparing spells for use against easy enemies?", but that rather implies that you should be preparing spells against powerful enemies. In my experience, high ranking enemies tend to be casters, often a couple levels above the party. You know, exactly the kind of enemy that would have Mind Blank available.

There aren't 5 entire creature types with immunity to acid, and, yes, a caster could have acid immunity up, but, why would they? Who uses acid? [Mind-affecting] tends to be much more common, and with much more dire consequences for not having protections against. If you search the Lists of Necessary Magic Items, acid immunity doesn't come up, but Mind Blank does.

And, ultimately, I'm not arguing that Heartache is a bad spell. I'm arguing that Haste, cast out of the same spell slot, is better. Do you disagree on that point?

[Zarvistic]

Maybe it's too late to suggest or maybe i am missing the goal but figured I would suggest it at least. What do you think of this.

Instead of having the different lists, have a single list simply ranking the top 10 based on how good they are compared to other spells of that level. Assuming there is no combos, metamagic, feats or anything else outside of the spell effect. No need to absolutely have a heal or a damage or any sort of effect unless it's actually a top 10 spell.

[Zanos]

And, ultimately, I'm not arguing that Heartache is a bad spell. I'm arguing that Haste, cast out of the same spell slot, is better. Do you disagree on that point?
Why even argue then?

Anyway, yeah, haste is a better spell in the vast majority of circumstances. I'm not really sure that the list is all that useful to anyone but archivists if we start including discounted spell access off obscure prestige lists, though.

[Anthrowhale]

I think this is a pretty extreme scenario to evaluate a spell under...I would normally consider a caster at level 20 as having a score of 36(18 base, 2 racial, 5 levels, 5 tome/wish, 6 enhancement). Not 70 because owls insight exists and CL buffs can be abused. The spell is still useful in that scenario against many monsters, just not the nastiest ones.

I agree.



Furthermore, replace color spray with sleep. :smalltongue:
I hear you, I'm just not convinced. Color Spray is risky to deploy, but it's also risky to not wipe out enemies before they get to act.



Assuming there is no combos, metamagic, feats or anything else outside of the spell effect.
Evaluating spells without context seems kind of tricky to me, because they are used in context.


Anyway, yeah, haste is a better spell in the vast majority of circumstances. I'm not really sure that the list is all that useful to anyone but archivists if we start including discounted spell access off obscure prestige lists, though.
It's only the ECL20 list where this is relevant, and there are only a few such spells---it seems reasonable to acknowledge them.

A question for Zanos and Harrow: Why Heartache instead of Vision of Punishment? They are both [mind-affecting] and Will saves. VoP has a better downside (sickened) but Heartache's upside (helpless) is significantly more terrifying than VoPs upside (dazed). VoP is a swift action, but at ECL20 Heartache can easily be a swift action as well.

[Thunder999]

Sleep is a 1 round cast time, that gives plenty of chance for enemies to split up or just attack you.
Oh and it's 4HD total, so facing a pair of 3HD enemies (perfectly possible at level 2 with how CR and HD work) means you can only get one of them.

[Harrow]

A question for Zanos and Harrow: Why Heartache instead of Vision of Punishment? They are both [mind-affecting] and Will saves. VoP has a better downside (sickened) but Heartache's upside (helpless) is significantly more terrifying than VoPs upside (dazed). VoP is a swift action, but at ECL20 Heartache can easily be a swift action as well.

Eh, there are a couple of reasons. Heartache can be a save or die, but it only lasts one round and a coup de grace is a full-round action, so you really need to coordinate with your party to get it to work right. VoP at higher levels has a duration of "the whole fight" regardless of where your fellow party members are. VoP is also natively a swift action. It costs more resources (turning attempts or uses of a metamagic rod) to make Heartache a swift than it takes to counteract the strength damage from VoP.

This last one might be a nit-pick or just irrelevant to the discussion, but I also weigh the alignments of the spells. Heartache is an [Evil] Cleric spell, where VoP is a Sanctified spell. That means wider spell access, both in the classes that can use it and in actual games (I see Evil characters and their resources banned much more frequently than Sanctified ones).

[Anthrowhale]

...

I'm convinced. I downgraded Heartache to the ECL2 list and added Haste on the ECL20 list from Trapsmith. I suspect there aren't any other early-level choices. With a quick look:

Trapsmith offers Arcane Sight at level 1. It's a good effect but I'm skeptical about the glowing eyes part.
Runescarred Berserker has Cure Moderate Wounds. But there are much better healing spells at ECL20.
Runescarred Berserker has See Invisibility. But there are other choices available at ECL20.
Knight of the Weave has Lesser Restoration. But by ECL20 you'll have some Heal variant on list.

[Chronos]

I'm against considering obscure lists like Trapsmith or Runescarred Berserker on this list at all. Yes, technically Haste can be a level 1 spell... but let's be honest, the vast majority of casters who can cast Haste cast it as a level 3 spell. And these unusually-low-level lists are all for prestige classes that have their own casting, and who therefore don't get access to those spells until about the same total character level as wizards or clerics anyway, so they're functionally higher-level spells even for those PrCs.

There will eventually be some oddities on these lists when we get to spells that are on both the wizard and cleric list but at significantly different levels, like Plane Shift. Unless we're splitting up the list by class, that's unavoidable. But we don't need to make that problem even worse.

[Fero]

I'm against considering obscure lists like Trapsmith or Runescarred Berserker on this list at all. Yes, technically Haste can be a level 1 spell... but let's be honest, the vast majority of casters who can cast Haste cast it as a level 3 spell. And these unusually-low-level lists are all for prestige classes that have their own casting, and who therefore don't get access to those spells until about the same total character level as wizards or clerics anyway, so they're functionally higher-level spells even for those PrCs.

There will eventually be some oddities on these lists when we get to spells that are on both the wizard and cleric list but at significantly different levels, like Plane Shift. Unless we're splitting up the list by class, that's unavoidable. But we don't need to make that problem even worse.

I concur. If we include trapsmith etc. This list will change from the "best" spells to the "spells that happened to be printer under leveled on a random PrC that had built in balancing limitations that clever players learned to bypass." That second list is, to me, much less interesting.

[Anthrowhale]

...


...

I'm happy to go with the crowd here. However, I'm skeptical that it makes much difference in practice. There are rather few spells on the oddball lists which actually measure up in a meaningful way with the best spells at that level so I expect it's overall a minor effect.

The argument for VoP over Heartache is sound though, so is there a different L1 spell we should have on the ECL20 list?

Edit: swapped Heartache back for Haste. However, I would invite alternate choice for an ECL20 L1 spell.

[Anthrowhale]

Swapped Silent Image to also be on the ECL20 list at the cost of Entangle. Entangle is a generally weaker effect than Kelpstrand at ECL20.

Also thought about the L1 BFC spells.


Grease: 10' square round/level reflex or prone each round, balance check to move, fail by 5->prone. Alternatively, escape grapple. Alternatively, disarm.
Ice Slick: 20' square round/level balance check or prone. Synergizes with Snowshoes which provides immunity.
Entangle: 40' radius minute/level stuck and Entangled Refl half speed. Requires plants in the area.
Impeding Stones: 40 radius minute/level Refl or prone each round + -2 attack debuff.
Sticky Floor: 10' square hour/level Stuck Refl Entangled.

Only Entangle and Impeding Stones strike me as a reasonable duration at ECL2---Sticky Floor is to long while Grease and Ice Slick are to short. Entangle is the stronger effect while Impeding Stones is a bit more universally applicable. Overall, it seems we should stick with Entangle for now.

[Quertus]

Only thing I haven't seen mentioned (just used Search, rather than read everything) was Wield Skill. +10 bonus to a skill check, or getting to roll on a Trained Only skill? Whether to punch above their weight class, or spontaneously pick up new talents, I've found the spell quite useful, personally.

[Kalkra]

Only thing I haven't seen mentioned (just used Search, rather than read everything) was Wield Skill. +10 bonus to a skill check, or getting to roll on a Trained Only skill? Whether to punch above their weight class, or spontaneously pick up new talents, I've found the spell quite useful, personally.

Wieldskill was nerfed in PGtF, now only available through a feat and only granting a +5 competence bonus rather than +10.

[Anthrowhale]

Wieldskill was nerfed in PGtF, now only available through a feat and only granting a +5 competence bonus rather than +10.

Loresong from Dragon #335 is in there and will give a larger competence bonus(+14) at caster level 20.

[Fero]

Skilfull Moment from Dragon 350 let's you take a 20 over two standard actions. I read the spell to allow you to take a 20 on skills that do not normally allow taking a 20, such as UMD. However, others disagree.

[Anthrowhale]

Skilfull Moment
It's a great spell for the ECL20 list which I dropped heartache from the ECL20 list since Vision of Punishment is there as an alternative.

Note that Surge of Fortune at level 4 can create the same effect amongst others.

[Fero]

I don't think I mentioned this one before:

Transferance, from the PHBII Web Supplement allows you to take XP from willing, not coerced creatures to use in magic item creation.

[Anthrowhale]

Transferance, from the PHBII Web Supplement allows you to take XP from willing, not coerced creatures to use in magic item creation.

This is unquestionably powerful at ECL20 because it changes the dynamics of item creation in a party. But, what to drop at ECL20? Silent Image?

[Inevitability]

This is unquestionably powerful at ECL20 because it changes the dynamics of item creation in a party. But, what to drop at ECL20? Silent Image?

Do we need to have Improvisation and Skillful Moment and Loresong in there? I get that skill optimization is powerful, and I get that an optimal build wants to combine all of these, but elsewhere in this project spells have gotten moved off-list for being worse than some other spell in the same niche, even where it'd make sense to combine the two.

[Fero]

This is unquestionably powerful at ECL20 because it changes the dynamics of item creation in a party. But, what to drop at ECL20? Silent Image?

I would say either: (a) Snow Sight, because many enemies at ECL 20 have blindsight/sense, etc.; (b) one of the three skill ones, as mentioned above, or (c) resurgence, b/c the actions to move/cast in combat are very valuable and also b/c most ECL 20 Save or X effects are just instant death.

[Anthrowhale]

Do we need to have Improvisation and Skillful Moment and Loresong in there? I get that skill optimization is powerful, and I get that an optimal build wants to combine all of these, but elsewhere in this project spells have gotten moved off-list for being worse than some other spell in the same niche, even where it'd make sense to combine the two.

I think the question is: what is enough?

For melee combat, we potentially have touch attack no-save daze with two (or more) colossal weapons adding sneak attack, acid, and poison riders. Between these, you can wipe the floor with even epic level monsters, so the necessity of adding multipliers like Girallon's Blessing, Battle Arms, Arms of Plenty, Cloud of Knives, etc... just seems marginal.

For skills though, even if we combo all the spells together and get a +30 out of Loresong and Improvisation from caster level shenanigans then leverage Skillfull moment, it's only making DC80 checks. That's good enough for an Incantatrix or a node caster, but still falls rather short of some epic skill checks.

With that said, I'm not sure about Skillful Moment. Will Surge of Fortune be in the top 10 for level 5 and eclipse it? It's definitely a monstrously powerful spell.

Fero's point about Resurgence at level 20 seems partially valid. There are, of course still many effects which don't outright kill like Molydeus poison and quicken rods for L1 spells are relatively cheap.

[Chronos]

Quoth Fero:

Transferance, from the PHBII Web Supplement allows you to take XP from willing, not coerced creatures to use in magic item creation.
As in, the willing creature still loses the XP? For that, you don't even need a spell at all. The standard magic item creation rules allow multiple characters to collaborate in the creation of an item, and any of the creators can pay the XP cost.

[Anthrowhale]

As in, the willing creature still loses the XP? For that, you don't even need a spell at all. The standard magic item creation rules allow multiple characters to collaborate in the creation of an item, and any of the creators can pay the XP cost.
Oh, good point. This spell saves man-hours, but perhaps that's less compelling than changing who pays the XP.