Do we know what happened between Nale and Malack?

[grandpheonix]

I'm a pretty big fan of OotS, but I don't know of we ever found out just what happened between Nale and Malack. So much rage and anger. Prepping murder at 9 years of age is pretty heavy and I have no idea exactly what happened.

Theories are always fun too. I like to imagine Malack killed his dog or something.

Edit : here's the strip in question https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0906.html

[Peelee]

I'm a pretty big fan of OotS, but I don't know of we ever found out just what happened between Nale and Malack. So much rage and anger. Prepping murder at 9 years of age is pretty heavy and I have no idea exactly what happened.

Theories are always fun too. I like to imagine Malack killed his dog or something.

Edit : here's the strip in question https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0906.html

Nale, the guy who formed and lead a group that was, in his own words, "practically synonymous with taking disproportionate revenge over quasi-imagined slights (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0257.html)"?

[Madwaltz]

My personal theory is that, as the son of Tarquin, Nale's ego was probably inflated from a very young age. As we saw with Elan, Tarquin's narcissistic attitude seems to extend to his children, so Nale probably felt he was better than everyone else from the get-go. And more importantly, no one is going to want to tell Nale that he's doing anything wrong, for fear of angering Tarquin and having their whole family executed for the insult.

So where does that leave Malack? He was Nale's teacher, and one of the only people in the country not afraid of Tarquin. This meant he treated Nale like a normal kid. He probably harshly pointed out Nale's every flaw and mistake. For someone like Nale, that's unforgivable.

[Tubercular Ox]

He was Nale's teacher, and one of the only people in the country not afraid of Tarquin. This meant he treated Nale like a normal kid. He probably harshly pointed out Nale's every flaw and mistake. For someone like Nale, that's unforgivable.

Totally agree on the teacher thing, Malack has the Wisdom to be a molder of young minds, but I don't know if it's "harshly" or "every."

I can picture one spectacular moment when Malack just had to be the wiser one, and fell back on, "Let's compromise and give me what I want," like he did with Durkon. That could've sealed it for Nale, whether Malack deserved it or not.

[ZhonLord]

There's also a possibility that Malak's spawn interacted negatively with Nale as well, prompting him to use them as a practice run for murdering their sire.

[Metastachydium]

Nale, the guy who formed and lead a group that was, in his own words, "practically synonymous with taking disproportionate revenge over quasi-imagined slights (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0257.html)"?

Very much this, plus Nale being offended by powerful people not serving him unquestioningly and Nale generously ignoring his own weight class as normal.

[woweedd]

I imagine it was either something hilariously petty, because Nale is hilariously petty, or something heinously awful, because Malack is heinously awful.

Nale, the guy who formed and lead a group that was, in his own words, "practically synonymous with taking disproportionate revenge over quasi-imagined slights (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0257.html)"?
To be fair, one could argue that, given what the Vector Legion are like, it's equally plausible that Malack did something truly awful, and their reason Tarquin and co are acting like Nale's just being a drama llama about it is because, ya know...Tarquin and co are also terrible people. Such is the dangers of navigating the gripe between two Evil SOBs.

[Yendor]

To be fair, one could argue that, given what the Vector Legion are like, it's equally plausible that Malack did something truly awful, and their reason Tarquin and co are acting like Nale's just being a drama llama about it is because, ya know...Tarquin and co are also terrible people. Such is the dangers of navigating the gripe between two Evil SOBs.

Very likely. Tarquin told Malack to suck it up over the children Nale killed and thought he was just being petty. (The fact that Malack's children were vampires doesn't mean it wasn't terrible.)

[ti'esar]

IIRC, I think Rich actually answered this in one of the Patreon Q&As - Nale hated the entire Vector Legion, he didn't actually have a special antipathy for Malack. The reason he put so much effort into figuring out how to kill Malack specifically is just because it's much harder to perma-kill a vampire than any of the living members.

[Metastachydium]

I imagine it was either something hilariously petty, because Nale is hilariously petty, or something heinously awful, because Malack is heinously awful.

To be fair, one could argue that, given what the Vector Legion are like, it's equally plausible that Malack did something truly awful, and their reason Tarquin and co are acting like Nale's just being a drama llama about it is because, ya know...Tarquin and co are also terrible people. Such is the dangers of navigating the gripe between two Evil SOBs.


Very likely. Tarquin told Malack to suck it up over the children Nale killed and thought he was just being petty. (The fact that Malack's children were vampires doesn't mean it wasn't terrible.)

I'm mostly so ready to pin it mainly on Nale since Malack is at least capable of pragmatism and working in a team (even with Nale) where his every whim is not always Priority No. 1.

[Jasdoif]

IIRC, I think Rich actually answered this in one of the Patreon Q&As - Nale hated the entire Vector Legion, he didn't actually have a special antipathy for Malack. The reason he put so much effort into figuring out how to kill Malack specifically is just because it's much harder to perma-kill a vampire than any of the living members.On one hand, yes (https://www.patreon.com/posts/39917949):


Why did Nale hate Malack so much as opposed to the rest of Tarquin's gang?

This question is sort of a category error, in that it presumes that the variable between how much Nale plotted the murder of Malack versus how much he plotted the murder of everyone else was the strength of his feelings about Malack, rather than the difficulty of the murder itself. In other words, Nale likely hated them all equally but spent more effort planning Malack’s death because Malack was harder to kill. Given his well-documented love of intricate plans, it’s reasonable to assume that he viewed it as a puzzle that was enjoyable to solve in its own right.

On the other hand, there would still have been an incident triggering Nale's decision to plot the murder of Malack; if not something Malack did that affected Nale, then something the Vector Legion did that affected Nale.

[Tubercular Ox]

I wonder about the timing of Nale killing Malack's spawn. Did Tarquin smooth it over somehow, or did it happen approximate to Nale's exit from the group?

First case is wow.

Second case means killing the spawn happened immediately before, during, or after the fight for Nale to replace the Blood Queen (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html). If it was immediately before, then it could still be considered a practice run, since Nale was imminently about to challenge Malack et al.

Nale is 21 in this strip (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html), but a lot of people have birthdays before Tarquin says installing the Blood Queen was two years ago, so Nale could've been 19-20 for the fight with the Blood Queen, which is a decade after the plans he made when he was 9.

So there's tension. Having the murders too close to the beginning of Nale's plans means more time for Malack to fail to calm down about it, despite working with Nale throughout that time. Having the murders too close to Nale's exit from the group implies more time for Nale to fail to calm down about it, despite working with Malack throughout that time.

So I'm starting to drift towards this being an ongoing thing and not a singular hate-inspiring event. Also, I lean towards the kills being a practice run for his coup attempt.

[RatElemental]

My favorite theory is that one time Malack babysat Nale and forced him to eat vegetables, go to bed on time, put away his toys, or some other similar thing and Nale is just that ridiculously vindictive.

[facw]

I don't think we've seen any details, so it's all speculation. Long ago, Rich hinted at a third prequel book, which would have to wait until later in the story. Obviously only he knows the specifics (and whether he still plans to do it), but it would make sense for it to be a Linear Guild/Vector Legion prequel focusing on the creation of the Guild and Nale's failed rebellion. And it would make sense to wait for such a book until after introduction of the Legion, the Malack reveal, and the dissolution of the Linear Guild in Blood Runs in the Family (Rich's comments were pre-BRitF). Who knows if that actually happens, but I think it would be fun, and would certainly fill in this "hole" (which of course isn't actually important to the plot of the main story, it's enough for us to know that Malack and Nale did not get along.)

[super dark33]

On one hand, yes (https://www.patreon.com/posts/39917949):



On the other hand, there would still have been an incident triggering Nale's decision to plot the murder of Malack; if not something Malack did that affected Nale, then something the Vector Legion did that affected Nale.

He always hated their old ways of decorum and formality, wasting their time playing in the sand when they could find Real Power.
I dont think its one page saying this, but its deffo spread along every time Nale talks about the legion.

[Jasdoif]

On one hand, yes (https://www.patreon.com/posts/39917949):



On the other hand, there would still have been an incident triggering Nale's decision to plot the murder of Malack; if not something Malack did that affected Nale, then something the Vector Legion did that affected Nale.He always hated their old ways of decorum and formality, wasting their time playing in the sand when they could find Real Power.
I dont think its one page saying this, but its deffo spread along every time Nale talks about the legion.That's his general stance now, and presumably for most/all of his adult life, yes.

But Nale would have had a specific experience that triggered the change from "Nale not having decided to plot the murder of Malack" and "Nale having decided to plot the murder of Malack", because that's how cause and effect works...one likely rooted in something more short-term, with as early in life as he said it happened.

[hroþila]

I don't think a specific trigger is needed, it could be as simple as "it just occurred to him one day that he could try to murder Malack"

[Jasdoif]

I don't think a specific trigger is needed, it could be as simple as "it just occurred to him one day that he could try to murder Malack"It could certainly be something as trivial as "glimpsed the desiccated husk of a lizard baking in the desert sun", but there'd still be something specific.

[Synesthesy]

I think that the difference is between we'll ever get a prequel book/arc about Vector Legion / Linear Guild or not.

If not, then it was just petty revenge against his father's gang. That's it.

If yes, I would like to point out that Nale was more deep than he seemed. Yes he was a comic villain inside... well, a comic. But in the end of his life, his story and his reasons were more important then what they were during the first book. Tarquin is a very bad person and his group is too. Nale got a sad story. If we'll ever know the real reason why Nale hated Malack, I bet it was a good reason, as Nale got good reasons to hate his father and philosofically even a good reason to hate Elan.

By the way, it's interesting how the Giant was able to transform so much a character in so few pages. It's so much better then many high budget productions like SW:ROS

[Errorname]

The idea that Nale hated the entire Vector Legion does track with what little we saw of his interactions with "Aunt" Laurin. Him prioritizing Malack being due to seeing him as the biggest threat makes sense enough.


Nale got a sad story.

You could certainly write a sad backstory for Nale, but I don't find the character we meet in the comic particularly sad. Like it's sad for Elan, because he wanted and deserved a better brother than that, but Nale's a petty spiteful murderer with an insane overconfidence in his own abilities and he had a lot of chances to make better choices.

[hroþila]

It could certainly be something as trivial as "glimpsed the desiccated husk of a lizard baking in the desert sun", but there'd still be something specific.
I dunno, sometimes random ideas pop up in my head without any external stimuli

[Metastachydium]

I dunno, sometimes random ideas pop up in my head without any externial stimuli

Like, "huh, I totally want to murder these six people and their little dogs too" random?

[Tubercular Ox]

Like, "huh, I totally want to murder these six people and their little dogs too" random?

Actually, hold on... why not? Look what he did in Cliffport, and remember that he and Sabine would kill people as a part of their relationship.

He seems like a genuine psychopath.

[hroþila]

Like, "huh, I totally want to murder these six people and their little dogs too" random?
Yes

I mean not like that in my case but yes. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Nale spent every night brooding in bed about how much he hated the Vector Legion, as you do, and one night he was suddenly like "wait a minute, I think I could actually take on Malack"

[Jasdoif]

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Nale spent every night brooding in bed about how much he hated the Vector Legion, as you do, and one night he was suddenly like "wait a minute, I think I could actually take on Malack"So what you're talking about here is the external event being what made Nale hate the Vector Legion that much; and reviewing it this time, unlike any prior time, his mental context detected a potential path forward with the "want to kill Malack" aspect and he decided to reify the idea with a plan to accomplish it.

We could get further into (pre)conscious/(in)voluntary mental mechanics, but somehow I suspect I've already taken "the Giant saying Nale hated the Vector Legion equally doesn't make this thread pointless" farther than expected :smalltongue:

[Errorname]

My instinct is that Nale resented being looked down on as just Tarquin's brat. Dude gets murderous about perceived disrespects and slights, and I imagine the Vector Legion's disdain was very real. He's Tarquin's nepotism hire, and I don't think Nale ever made a good first impression in his life. He's a little Tarquin with all the same insufferable flaws but none of the talent or professionalism that made his dad's antics worth tolerating. I doubt they ever treated him well. The resentment simmers Nale's whole life, whatever justified hatred he has gets warped into hating them for petty "they aren't being evil correctly" reasons. In the early years 'thinking about killing you' were probably idle thoughts, desires that you don't dare dream could actually end up being real.

I assume the point where Nale got serious about trying to usurp his father and the Vector Legion was when Sabine entered his life. She validated all his superiority complexes and convinced him that yeah, he was a bad enough dude to go up against the Vector Legion and win. Which uh... didn't really turn out for him either time but he gave it his best shot.

[Ruck]

I imagine it was either something hilariously petty, because Nale is hilariously petty, or something heinously awful, because Malack is heinously awful.

That's what makes it so fun for me and why I don't need an answer. Malack being Malack, it could easily be justified. Nale being Nale, it could easily be as petty as "made him finish his homework before he got dessert."

With those two characters in particular, the range of possibilities is so wide that I kinda like that we don't have a specific reason.

[KorvinStarmast]

I don't think a specific trigger is needed, it could be as simple as "it just occurred to him one day that he could try to murder Malack" Given that he had needed a wingman to pull this off (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0907.html) (Z'zdtri), I suspect that it had to do with his own group's status and his ego, and the original slight that triggered "hold a grudge since I was nine years old" could have been anything.

Look what he did in Cliffport, and remember that he and Sabine would kill people as a part of their relationship.

He seems like a genuine psychopath. Yes. See also their plan for Haley in Azure City ... they may have a thing for each other, but I don't think it's healthy.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Nale spent every night brooding in bed about how much he hated the Vector Legion, as you do, and one night he was suddenly like "wait a minute, I think I could actually take on Malack" And he held it in reserve for a long time. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0907.html)

My instinct is that Nale resented being looked down on as just Tarquin's brat. As likely as any other motivation.

With those two characters in particular, the range of possibilities is so wide that I kinda like that we don't have a specific reason. Concur. It's OK for us to fill in the blanks. :smallsmile:

[Errorname]

I assumed Nale meant they had it in their back pocket since they noticed Malack used his emergency protection spell on his Thrall.

Their tactics against Malack were very effective but highly situational, and it wouldn't have been in Nale's power to force Malack into that situation had it not come up organically.

[Peelee]

I assumed Nale meant they had it in their back pocket since they noticed Malack used his emergency protection spell on his Thrall.

Their tactics against Malack were very effective but highly situational, and it wouldn't have been in Nale's power to force Malack into that situation had it not come up organically.

That's my take on it 100%.

[Aquillion]

I think it was probably mostly about his father. The fact that he taunted Tarquin about it at the first opportunity (even though doing so was a terrible idea that led directly to Nale's death) seems telling to me.

Like... if Nale is that good at planning, why didn't he hide the fact that he'd turned on the Vector Legion and let them think that Malack was killed by the OOTS somehow? Nale is certainly capable of lying, most of the time. And the immediate answer that comes to mind is that rubbing it in his father's face was the entire point.

[Metastachydium]

I think it was probably mostly about his father. The fact that he taunted Tarquin about it at the first opportunity (even though doing so was a terrible idea that led directly to Nale's death) seems telling to me.

I wouldn't really call that the first opportunity, though. It was more like his last resort when he tried to make the scene about himself with other taunts and all he got was a "shut up, Nale, I'm busy".

[WanderingMist]

Nale's biggest flaw is his massive ego. Malack probably just dismissed him as a kid once and he refused to let it go.

[brian 333]

Nale didn't care about Malack, other than as an object of transference. His issue was with Tarquin. Killing Malack was his way of demonstrating to Dad that he was worthy of paternal respect.

All of his life Nale was little more than a fashion accessory of Tarquin. Defeating Malack demonstrated that he was his own man in terms Tarauin could not help but understand.

Rejecting his father's assignment of Nale as the one to continue the legacy of Tarquin was the point at which Tarquin turned. So long as it was youthful rebellion, Nale's antics were tolerable. When Nale rejected the role assigned by Tarquin he was no longer protected by the narrative Tarquin had woven about him.

It may be that Tarquin was proud of Nale solving the Malack Problem because as long as Malack was not dead, Nale would have been at best second fiddle. Tarquin envisioned himself as leader, and his replacement would have to have been leader as well. This could not have happened with Malack still in the game.

[Devils_Advocate]

Yeah, even after Nale killed Malack and was obnoxiously smug about it, Tarquin still wanted to bring Nale on board Tarquin's team (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0913.html). Nale rejecting that offer is what Tarquin found unforgivable. Like father, like son. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0061.html)

[No good @ names]

Malack was playing an even longer, more conservative game than Tarquin. He was Lawful, and expected a hierarchy to be followed for the benefit of the group (as with him following Tarquin’s lead), pretty much all of which Nale was against.


So Nale hated Malack for being Malack. As a unstable murderer in general, that’s enough to want to kill Malack. As others have pointed out, the planning is as much about the difficulty of the task. If 9 year old Nale *could* have killed Malack when the desire first emerged, he probably would have.

[Precure]

Nale has the sort of damaged ego that would force him to try to surpass his father at all costs, which of course would fail and thus lead to his presence in the dungeon. If Nale had been raise by an evil mother, I think he would have been more of a "corrupt prince" sort of character rather than an angry rebel looking for a magic doodad to go back and seize power. In this case, plot dictated characterization.

This imply that Nale's rebellion (and the killing of Malack's children) was due to Nale's own daddy issues, not something Malack done.

[Khay]

If yes, I would like to point out that Nale was more deep than he seemed. Yes he was a comic villain inside... well, a comic. But in the end of his life, his story and his reasons were more important then what they were during the first book. Tarquin is a very bad person and his group is too. Nale got a sad story. If we'll ever know the real reason why Nale hated Malack, I bet it was a good reason, as Nale got good reasons to hate his father and philosofically even a good reason to hate Elan.

I always thought it interesting that Nale claims to be Lawful Evil, but doesn't really act that way. I think the only Lawful thing he ever does is insisting on 'evil opposites,' even when that wastes time and hinders his plans. Other than that he's a force of Chaos wherever he goes, and when he dies it's because he refuses to be a cog in someone's clever scheme. I still wonder what's up with that.

[ti'esar]

I still wonder what's up with that.

I think it's the daddy issues just mentioned. He claims he's Lawful Evil because Tarquin's Lawful Evil and he's fixated on surpassing him.

(If he'd lived past the "I want NOTHING to do with you" speech, I actually wonder if he'd have kept doing it.)

[Aquillion]

FWIW Giant has implied that he's not really lawful, here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?286395-Vigilantism-and-the-Lawful-Alignment-in-OotS&p=15364378#post15364378).

It's not 100% unambiguous but it's enough that the Class and Level Geekery thread lists Nale as non-Lawful.

(Another possibility is that Nale once was more Lawful, but has become less so due to Sabine's influence and doesn't realize this.)

[KorvinStarmast]

Do we know what happened between Nale and Malack?
I will rephrase this thread title
Do we need to know what happened between Nale and Malack?
The simple answer is no.

Rich has left a variety of things vague, to good purpose.
V is but one example.
But, based on the notes in one of his books (War and XP?) the "who started killing whom first way back in history" between Azure City and the Goblins, Rich has stated that he is content to leave that vague.

What happened between Nale and Malack is not important. That there is bad blood between them is what is important ... and I'll point out that this isn't Nale's story, and it isn't Malack's story.

[Ruck]

I always thought it interesting that Nale claims to be Lawful Evil, but doesn't really act that way. I think the only Lawful thing he ever does is insisting on 'evil opposites,' even when that wastes time and hinders his plans. Other than that he's a force of Chaos wherever he goes, and when he dies it's because he refuses to be a cog in someone's clever scheme. I still wonder what's up with that.

"Interesting, that. Don't you think? (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=15364378&postcount=36)"

[Khay]

I do think!

Wonder if the "I'm my own man" speech was the payoff for that. Nale is practically screaming a summary of Chaotic beliefs there.

[Ruck]

I do think!

Wonder if the "I'm my own man" speech was the payoff for that. Nale is practically screaming a summary of Chaotic beliefs there.

Ooh, I hadn't thought of it that way before, but I like the connection.

I think Nale and Eugene are the two characters whose general actions and outlook on life display a morality that is not consistent with how they describe and presumably perceive themselves. Nale seems Chaotic Evil to me, between his obvious evilness, the chaos he causes, and his lack of any kind of code. Eugene strikes me as True Neutral: not evil, certainly, but not someone who's notably done good, and whose life and actions seem to center around being selfish and self-absorbed more than anything else.

[Errorname]

Do we know what happened between Nale and Malack?
I will rephrase this thread title
Do we need to know what happened between Nale and Malack?
The simple answer is no.

What happened between Nale and Malack is not important. That there is bad blood between them is what is important ... and I'll point out that this isn't Nale's story, and it isn't Malack's story.

It's not necessary information and the story is comprehensible without it, so what? It's still fun to speculate about.

[MReav]

Do we know what happened between Nale and Malack?
I will rephrase this thread title
Do we need to know what happened between Nale and Malack?
The simple answer is no.

Rich has left a variety of things vague, to good purpose.


It doesn't help that Nale is proudly a spiteful jackass prone to disproportionate retribution over insults, real or imagined. Malack could have handed him the wrong toy or told him to wait for dessert and Nale would have formed a burning lifelong hatred of Malack.

[Precure]

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25864578&postcount=37

This isn't a good answer?