Tumbling and Movement Question

[incog64]

When one tumbles do they need to tumble their entire movement or just the needed space? If one doesn't need to use their entire movement for tumble, can you break it down so I can convince my DM? I am relatively new so I don't speak DM very fluently yet.

My position is that they can because in the PHB (p.84), it says Action: Not applicable. Tumbling is part of movement, so a Tumble check is part of a move action. So to me, that implies that you can tumble as part of your movement not necessarily the entire movement.

Thanks in advance.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Rules Compendium makes it clear:

While making Tumble checks, you move at half speed, but
you do so only in squares that you make Tumble checks to
move through.

[Darg]

You make a tumble check for every square you want to tumble through and every one of those squares is half-speed.

[KillianHawkeye]

You make a tumble check for every square you want to tumble through and every one of those squares is half-speed.

The first part is incorrect, if you Tumble past an enemy it's only one Tumble check no matter how many of his threatened squares you move through. Alternatively, you have to make two Tumble checks if you try to Tumble away from two foes, even if you're only leaving one threatened square.

[Darg]

The first part is incorrect, if you Tumble past an enemy it's only one Tumble check no matter how many of his threatened squares you move through. Alternatively, you have to make two Tumble checks if you try to Tumble away from two foes, even if you're only leaving one threatened square.

Except the problem with this is that you only move half speed when you actually tumble. Even the RC points out that only the squares you make a tumble check for are half speed. In your scenario, at 30 speed you could move 25ft even passing through 3 or more squares threatened by an opponent. Then, what happens if you also move through an occupied square? What happens if you tumble past an opponent and then come back through again? Two separate instances of tumbling but only one check?

To make a comparison to another skill that works similarly, you don't make just one jump check if you jump more than once in a movement. Likewise, you don't make just one tumble check if you are tumbling multiple times in a movement.

[Crake]

In your scenario, at 30 speed you could move 25ft even passing through 3 or more squares threatened by an opponent.

That's not how tumbling works. When you tumble, you don't avoid, or deny your opponent an attack of opportunity, you simply don't provoke. If you stop tumbling, you resume provoking, and thus, if you wish to tumble through 3 threatened squares, you need to use 15ft of movement, even if it's only one enemy and one check. The RC sentence doesn't say anything about needing to roll a tumble check for every square, and the actual tumble rules are pretty clear that you need to tumble through all the squares, as you're simply avoiding provoking. If you stop tumbling, you no longer avoid provoking, and thus provoke, but just in a different square than you normally would have otherwise.

[Darg]

That's not how tumbling works. When you tumble, you don't avoid, or deny your opponent an attack of opportunity, you simply don't provoke. If you stop tumbling, you resume provoking, and thus, if you wish to tumble through 3 threatened squares, you need to use 15ft of movement, even if it's only one enemy and one check. The RC sentence doesn't say anything about needing to roll a tumble check for every square, and the actual tumble rules are pretty clear that you need to tumble through all the squares, as you're simply avoiding provoking. If you stop tumbling, you no longer avoid provoking, and thus provoke, but just in a different square than you normally would have otherwise.


While making Tumble checks, you move at half speed, but you do so only in squares that you make Tumble checks to move through.

The RC seems pretty explicit to me. For ease of play making a single check is nice, but at the same time a single check per character does not accomodate every logical scenario. What happens if you tumble past character A, tumble for character B, and then go back past character A? The rules aren't clear unless you make checks for every square you need to travel through. The only time you don't make checks for every square is if you need to make a DC 25 check to pass through "the area" occupied by a creature, and that's only if you aren't making DC 15 checks for other creatures threatening that area.

[Crake]

The RC seems pretty explicit to me. For ease of play making a single check is nice, but at the same time a single check per character does not accomodate every logical scenario. What happens if you tumble past character A, tumble for character B, and then go back past character A? The rules aren't clear unless you make checks for every square you need to travel through. The only time you don't make checks for every square is if you need to make a DC 25 check to pass through "the area" occupied by a creature, and that's only if you aren't making DC 15 checks for other creatures threatening that area.

You just ignored the "to move through" part. You make a single tumble check to move through multiple squares, that doesn't mean only the square you make the tumble check IN, it's the squares you make tumble checks to move through.

[Darg]

You just ignored the "to move through" part. You make a single tumble check to move through multiple squares, that doesn't mean only the square you make the tumble check IN, it's the squares you make tumble checks to move through.

I did not ignore it; it's part of the quote after all. You make a check or checks to move through each square. The way you do it makes the skill require DM adjudication for what qualifies for a new tumble check and how to determine the DC when players go back and forth with their movement.

[KillianHawkeye]

If you look at the actual table for Tumble actions (on page 84 of the Player's Handbook 3.5), under DC 15 it says:


Tumble at one-half speed as part of normal movement, provoking no attacks of opportunity while doing so. Failure means you provoke attacks of opportunity normally. Check separately for each opponent you move past, in the order in which you pass them (player’s choice of order in case of a tie). Each additional enemy after the first adds +2 to the Tumble DC.

It clearly says you make the check for each opponent you move past, not for each square you tumble through.

The Rules Compendium also backs this up if you bother reading more than the first sentence about Tumbling.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Has anyone here actually used the "one check per square" interpretation in practice? Because even one check per enemy is already a lot of rolling sometimes.

I can hardly imagine rolling a dozen or more tumble checks every time the rogue moves through a crowded melee fight, it sounds terrible.
Though it would explain where the games with hour-long combat rounds come from.

[Crake]

Has anyone here actually used the "one check per square" interpretation in practice? Because even one check per enemy is already a lot of rolling sometimes.

I can hardly imagine rolling a dozen or more tumble checks every time the rogue moves through a crowded melee fight, it sounds terrible.
Though it would explain where the games with hour-long combat rounds come from.

I don't think anyone's actually advocating for one check per square, the thing Darg is arguing about is that you only move half speed for the square you make the check in, as opposed to the squares in which you avoid attacks of opportunity

[Duke of Urrel]

Has anyone here actually used the "one check per square" interpretation in practice? Because even one check per enemy is already a lot of rolling sometimes.

I can hardly imagine rolling a dozen or more tumble checks every time the rogue moves through a crowded melee fight, it sounds terrible.
Though it would explain where the games with hour-long combat rounds come from.

I feel your pain, SleepyPhoenix. The rules as written can be complicated, and it's a little scary to imagine how much work we may need to do, in theory, to determine whether a tumbler can tumble through a very thick crowd of enemies.

On the other hand, as my grandfather used to say, "What's the worst that could happen?"

Here's the most complicated scenario that I can think of within the rules. It's complicated, but it's not too bad.

Suppose your speed is 30 feet, suppose you stand immediately in front of a phalanx of fifteen orc warriors, three orc-files wide and five orc-ranks deep, and suppose you want to try to tumble past them all. We'll assume that this is the only way for you to get past the orcs, because they fill up a tunnel 15 feet wide and there is no path around them. Thirty feet is as far as you can possibly tumble without using the accelerated tumbling option. Thus, according to the rules, whenever you try to avoid an attack of opportunity by tumbling out of a threatened space, you must make a Tumble check at DC 15, and whenever you try to enter a space occupied by an orc, you must make a Tumble check at DC 25.

You can eliminate five Tumble checks simply by choosing to tumble through the right-hand file or the left-hand file of five orcs rather than through the middle file. Tumbling through the middle file would mean having to make three Tumble checks at DC 15 every five feet, because doing so provokes attacks of opportunity from three orcs at once. Tumbling through the right-hand or left-hand file means never having to avoid more than two attacks of opportunity at once, so that you make only two Tumble checks at DC 15 every five feet. So the total number of Tumble checks at DC 15 that you must make to run the whole gauntlet is 10 (because you need to make this check only once per orc, never more than once, even though you must leave three threatened spaces every time you try to tumble past a single orc).

There is no way around making five Tumble checks at DC 25, because you must enter the spaces occupied by five orcs before you emerge on the far side of the phalanx. So in addition to the 10 Tumble checks that you make at DC 15, you must make five Tumble checks at DC 25.

I you have to roll each Tumble check and cannot take 10 – which is likely, because you're threatened every step of the way – you need a lot of Tumble skill even to attempt this difficult challenge. When you enter the first space occupied by the first orc, you must make only one Tumble check at DC 25 (because you aren't taking any action except for one withdraw action and you don't provoke any attacks of opportunity when you start this action by moving only five feet).


If this Tumble check fails, you can't move at all and must end your turn where you are standing.

If your this Tumble check succeeds, you move five feet into the first game square occupied by an orc. Doing so costs 10 feet of your movement allotment.



In order to tumble the next five feet, you must make two Tumble checks: one at DC 15 to avoid the first orc's an attack of opportunity and another at DC 25 to enter the next game space, which is occupied by an orc in the second rank.


If either one of these Tumble checks fails, you risk ending your turn in an illegal space. Since the closest legal space is behind you, you are shunted into the closest legal space, which is the space where you started. Better luck next time!

If your first Tumble check at DC 25 succeeds, you move five feet into the first game square occupied by an orc. Doing so costs 10 feet of your movement allotment.


In order to tumble all the way through the orc phalanx, you must make all of these Tumble checks and spend your movement allotment as follows.

Square 1: one Tumble check at DC 25, movement cost 10 feet.
Square 2: two Tumble checks at DC 15, one Tumble check at DC 25, movement cost 10 feet.
Square 3: two Tumble checks at DC 15, one Tumble check at DC 25, movement cost 10 feet.
Square 4: two Tumble checks at DC 15, one Tumble check at DC 25, movement cost 10 feet.
Square 5: two Tumble checks at DC 15, one Tumble check at DC 25, movement cost 10 feet.
Square 6 (unoccupied): two Tumble checks at DC 15, movement cost 10 feet.

This is, as far as I can imagine, the worst that can happen. The maximum number of Tumble checks that you have to make in one turn (unless we try to imagine really weird and unlikely arrangements of enemies, including some flying overhead and others striking out of holes in the ground) seems to be fifteen.

But there are still some issues that I would like to discuss here.

Issue One.
Suppose, in the scenario described above, you make a Tumble check at DC 25 somewhere in the middle of the phalanx and it fails. According to the rules, whenever your turn ends in an illegal space, you must be shunted into the nearest legal space. So if your first, second, or third Tumble check at DC 25 fails, you must be shunted back into the space in which you started. But if your fourth, fifth, or sixth Tumble check at DC 25 fails, you must be shunted forward – right into the space where you want to go! This raises the question: Don't you provoke one or more attacks of opportunity while you are being shunted forward? And my answer to this question is: Yes, you do. In fact, since you're moving by "being shunted" rather than by tumbling, you can no longer avoid these attacks of opportunity by making Tumble checks. (Individual dungeon master judgement may vary. Ask your dungeon master.) So we have some good news and some bad news. The good news is that you bypass all the rest of orcs without having to make any more Tumble checks. The bad news is that this may hurt.

Issue Two.
Here's another point to make. Since a tumbling move like the one in the scenario described above is so risky, you're probably not going to try to make it unless you have a LOT of ranks in Tumble skill. Indeed, you're probably not going to try to make it unless at least some of your Tumble checks succeed even if you roll a natural one. But of course, this drastically reduces the number of Tumble checks that you have to make. And the best way to make a tumbling move like this is to apply the rogue's Skill Mastery class feature to Tumble skill, so that you can take 10 on Tumble checks even while you're threatened. This can allow you to survive even the most complicated tumbling scenario without having to roll any Tumble checks. All that you need to do is determine whether you can make one Tumble check that succeeds at DC 25 by taking 10, and you're home free.

Issue Three.
The tumbling rules require a Tumble check to reduce your speed for two reasons: (1) because you make the Tumble check to avoid attacks of opportunity, and (2) because you make the Tumble check to enter an occupied space. I consider it convenient to represent each slowing effects of tumbling as a movement cost. Somebody might reason that since these slowing effects are movement costs, therefore they should stack with each other. If you agree with this reasoning, then entering Square One in the scenario above imposes a movement cost of only 10 feet (because your speed is merely halved), but entering Square Two, which requires you to avoid attacks of opportunity as well as to enter another occupied space, should impose a movement cost of 20 feet (because your speed has now been quartered). I personally disagree with this reasoning, but if your dungeon master agrees, then it is not possible for you to tumble through five ranks of orcs. It is possible for you to tumble through only three ranks, because your movement cost (in the orc-phalanx scenario described above) is as follows:

Square One: move 5 feet, cost 10 feet, total cost 10 feet
Square Two: move 5 feet, cost 20 feet, total cost 30 feet
Square Three: move 5 feet, cost 20 feet, total cost 50 feet
Square Four (unoccupied): move 5 feet, cost 10 feet, total cost 60 feet

The good news is that this reduces the maximum number of Tumble checks that you need to make from fifteen down to nine. The bad news is that the higher movement cost rather sucks for tumblers, in my opinion. I would rather impose a lower movement cost, allow tumblers to tumble farther, and accept the greater complexity.

[Daisy]

Remember however, that you only check once per opponent per triggering action. So given you are only doing one type of provoking action (moving) you will only need to check 6 times: DC 25 for the 3 orcs whose squares you are tumbling through, and DC 15 for the 3 adjacent ones.

But...

Each opponent after the first adds 2 to the DC. So the checks are:

1st square of movement:
1st orc through his square: DC 25.
2nd orc no provoke due to withdrawal.

2nd square of movement:
3rd orc through his square: DC 25+2=27.
2nd orc now needs a check as this is the second of his threatened squares you are leaving at DC 15+4=19.
4th orc DC 15+6=21.

3rd square of movement:
5th orc through his square: DC 25+8=33.
6th orc DC 15+10=25.

Each orc has checked once so no more checks required. At least, that's how we do it at my table.

[Duke of Urrel]

Remember however, that you only check once per opponent per triggering action. So given you are only doing one type of provoking action (moving) you will only need to check 6 times: DC 25 for the 3 orcs whose squares you are tumbling through, and DC 15 for the 3 adjacent ones.

Ah, thank you for this! I think you are right about this, though I can't remember where the rule "you only check once per opponent per triggering action" appears.

This brings the total number of Tumble checks for the theoretical "Most Complicated (Realistic) Case Scenario" described above from fifteen down to ten! (The orc phalanx is three wide, but five deep, so that you trigger six times, not merely three.)


Each opponent after the first adds 2 to the DC. So the checks are:

1st square of movement:
1st orc through his square: DC 25.
2nd orc no provoke due to withdrawal.

2nd square of movement:
3rd orc through his square: DC 25+2=27.
2nd orc now needs a check as this is the second of his threatened squares you are leaving at DC 15+4=19.
4th orc DC 15+6=21.

3rd square of movement:
5th orc through his square: DC 25+8=33.
6th orc DC 15+10=25.

Each orc has checked once so no more checks required. At least, that's how we do it at my table.

And thank you for this, too. I completely forgot about the rule that raises the Tumble DC by two for each previous opponent. (D'oh!).

With your help, I can revise the pattern for the theoretical "Most Complicated (Realistic) Case Scenario" as follows.

Square 1: one Tumble check at DC 25, movement cost 10 feet.
Square 2: one Tumble check at DC 15+2, one Tumble check at DC 25+4, movement cost 10 feet.
Square 3: one Tumble check at DC 15+6, one Tumble check at DC 25+8, movement cost 10 feet.
Square 4: one Tumble check at DC 15+10, one Tumble check at DC 25+12, movement cost 10 feet.
Square 5: one Tumble check at DC 15+14, one Tumble check at DC 25+16, movement cost 10 feet.
Square 6 (unoccupied): one Tumble check at DC 15+18, movement cost 10 feet.

Wait a minute. Let's not make this harder than it needs to be. If we adjust the order of Tumble checks a little, we can make this epic feat of tumbling a tad more feasible.

Square 1: one Tumble check at DC 25, movement cost 10 feet.
Square 2: one Tumble check at DC 25+2, one Tumble check at DC 15+4, movement cost 10 feet.
Square 3: one Tumble check at DC 25+6, one Tumble check at DC 15+8, movement cost 10 feet.
Square 4: one Tumble check at DC 25+10, one Tumble check at DC 15+12, movement cost 10 feet.
Square 5: one Tumble check at DC 25+14, one Tumble check at DC 15+16, movement cost 10 feet.
Square 6 (unoccupied): one Tumble check at DC 15+18, movement cost 10 feet.

Clearly, this is not a move for amateurs. Unless you're a superstar rogue, your best bet is to succeed well enough to get yourself shunted forward and to accept the attacks of opportunity that you must suffer the rest of the way.

Of course, if we also follow the rule that making two Tumble checks at once must double the movement cost, then you can't tumble through more than three ranks of orcs.

Square 1: one Tumble check at DC 25, movement cost 10 feet.
Square 2: one Tumble check at DC 25+2, one Tumble check at DC 15+4, movement cost 20 feet, total movement 30 feet.
Square 3: one Tumble check at DC 25+6, one Tumble check at DC 15+8, movement cost 20 feet, total movement 50 feet.
Square 4: one Tumble check at DC 15+10, movement cost 10 feet, total movement 60 feet.