Experience Loss due to an effect?

[Mr.PC0X]

So, as I posted previously, I've been working on converting old 2e 10th level spells and I'm a bit confounded by the wording of the negative effects fo the spell "Magical Minions", a portion of which which reads as follows:

"The strong link between wizard and minions can be dangerous as well. When a minion is destroyed, the wizard must save vs. death magic or be stunned for ld6 turns. The wizard also loses experience points equal to ten times the minion's XP value. The wizard cannot gain further experience points until the minion is either replaced or its death is avenged."

For ease of sake I have caluclated that each minion must be a 9th level wizard (or similar caster). How much would a caster lose if this minion were to be killed, and what would the additional ramifications of losing that much Experience be?

For a quick starter, I calculated that assuming six minions, each worth ex. 36,000* then a 20th level caster would lose all of their XP and then some. (There is a better than average chance that my math doesn't add up here)

On a somewhat related note, given the nature of this negative drawback of the spell what kind of ad hoc mitigation would you recomend it as a mitigating factor?

[noob]

So, as I posted previously, I've been working on converting old 2e 10th level spells and I'm a bit confounded by the wording of the negative effects fo the spell "Magical Minions", a portion of which which reads as follows:

"The strong link between wizard and minions can be dangerous as well. When a minion is destroyed, the wizard must save vs. death magic or be stunned for ld6 turns. The wizard also loses experience points equal to ten times the minion's XP value. The wizard cannot gain further experience points until the minion is either replaced or its death is avenged."

For ease of sake I have caluclated that each minion must be a 9th level wizard (or similar caster). How much would a caster lose if this minion were to be killed, and what would the additional ramifications of losing that much Experience be?

For a quick starter, I calculated that assuming six minions, each worth ex. 36,000* then a 20th level caster would lose all of their XP and then some. (There is a better than average chance that my math doesn't add up here)

On a somewhat related note, given the nature of this negative drawback of the spell what kind of ad hoc mitigation would you recomend it as a mitigating factor?
They said xp value, it might refer to the amount of experience you gain from defeating it?
Lots of monsters did not have experience or gain experience so referring to the experience the monster would need to reach its current level makes no sense. (it is also true in 3.5 since LA _ means that there is no defined amount of experience the monster must gain to reach its current level)
The issue would be that in 3.5 how much xp you gain from beating a creature depends on your equivalent character level(equal to your level if you have a level adjustment of 0) relatively to the cr of the creature.

[Mr.PC0X]

They said xp value, it might refer to the amount of experience you gain from defeating it?
Lots of monsters did not have experience or gain experience so referring to the experience the monster would need to reach its current level makes no sense. (it is also true in 3.5 since LA _ means that there is no defined amount of experience the monster must gain to reach its current level)

Embarassingly I just figured that out, because I'm a dingus. But that still means that each defeated minion costs the caster 140,000 XP*, and all six would cost 840,000 XP at that, amounts to losing nearly 6 levels. Admittedly I may have overreacted a tad bit, but I still wonder what kind of limitation this makes for mitgating factors.

[Darg]

Embarassingly I just figured that out, because I'm a dingus. But that still means that each defeated minion costs the caster 140,000 XP*, and all six would cost 840,000 XP at that, amounts to losing nearly 6 levels. Admittedly I may have overreacted a tad bit, but I still wonder what kind of limitation this makes for mitgating factors.

How did you calculate that? The XP reward value from a CR 9 creature is at most 7,200 when defeated at level 1 and only 350 XP when defeated at level 16. Table 2-6 in the DMG gives you a sliding scale. Is XP in AD&D a fixed amount per creature regardless of the level difference? If you want to find a balanced amount of XP to cost the character, find the ratio of level to level XP to XP value of the creatures. So if in AD&D the amount of XP needed for the next level is 1,000,000 at level 20 to 21, then the amount in 3.5e is only 20,000. If the creatures are worth 5,000 XP in AD&D then you should just cost a fixed amount of 1000 XP per death to keep the ratio the same.

[Mr.PC0X]

How did you calculate that? The XP reward value from a CR 9 creature is at most 7,200 when defeated at level 1 and only 350 XP when defeated at level 16. Table 2-6 in the DMG gives you a sliding scale. Is XP in AD&D a fixed amount per creature regardless of the level difference? If you want to find a balanced amount of XP to cost the character, find the ratio of level to level XP to XP value of the creatures. So if in AD&D the amount of XP needed for the next level is 1,000,000 at level 20 to 21, then the amount in 3.5e is only 20,000. If the creatures are worth 5,000 XP in AD&D then you should just cost a fixed amount of 1000 XP per death to keep the ratio the same.

Okay... so let my math be wrong again, let's say 7200 is the XP value of a 9th level wizard. Before we nitpick further I'll simply use this number, no sliding scale, as this is the XP awarded for defeating a single CR 9 Monster as per Table 6-14 of the Level-Independent XP Award, Unearthed Arcana. I'd post a link but I can't just yet.

That argument aside, each dead minion costs the caster 72,000 XP, with a grand total of 432,000 XP. Granted this is still two an a half levels of XP you can't get back until the minion is replaced or avenged.

The wizard also loses experience points equal to ten times the minion's XP value. The wizard cannot gain further experience points until the minion is either replaced or its death is avenged.

Between being forced to save or be stunned for 1d6 turns each time a minion is destroyed, losing 72,000 XP each time a minion is destroyed, not being able to gain ANY XP until the minion is replaced or avenged (replacing said minion would require at minimum another 150 days), and if ALL the minions are slain the spell can't be used again for 3 years, I'd give the spell and ad hoc mitigation of 20-25, is that fair?

[Darg]

That argument aside, each dead minion costs the caster 72,000 XP, with a grand total of 432,000 XP. Granted this is still two an a half levels of XP you can't get back until the minion is replaced or avenged.

Why don't you use the alternative XP progression found on the same page of UA? 432,000 XP is only 2x the XP of going from 15th to 16th level and approximately the cost of going from 17th to 18th. going from level 20 to 21 and it's less than half. From 23rd to 24th it's ~1/7th the level.

If you don't, just don't multiply the XP value by 10. You can get this by reverse engineering the Spell XP costs table on the very next page. Also, thought bottles do exist.

[GeoffWatson]

Do you have the full details of the spell?
Does it have an XP cost for creating the minions?

[Mr.PC0X]

Do you have the full details of the spell?
Does it have an XP cost for creating the minions?

I do. It doesn't have an XP cost for making minions per se, but it does require a set Intelligence score or higher. I decided to make the minions complicit assitants in a ritual version for conversion reasons, such that each would contribute a 5th level spell slot to reduce the overall cost of the DC because trying to follow this spell to the "T" results in a fairly high Spellcraft DC. Strap in though, the original spell's a doozy.


Magical Minions (Conjuration)

Range: Touch Components: V, S, M Preparation Time: 150 days Duration: Permanent Casting Time: 1 turns

Area of Effect: Undead creature touched Saving Throw: Neg.

This spell lets the wizard create a force of identical creatures who, in essence, become physical extensions of himself. The wizard can observe through their senses and use his powers through them, no matter where they are.

During the preparation time, the wizard must assemble the potential minions. Any creature can serve as a minion, provided it is of the same alignment as the caster and has a minimum of 15 Intelligence. The wizard can enchant a number of identical minions up to one third of his level, rounding down. For a good wizard, the minions must be willing subjects. Evil wizards can secure their minions through domination or other means. Minions and wizard must be locked away for the entire length of the preparation time, bonding personally, magically, and psionically.

Upon casting, the minions become tools of the wizard for the rest of their lives. If destroyed and raised, the raised form is no longer a minion of the wizard. The minions retain their physical form and attributes, including hit points, THAC0, Armor Class attacks, etc. They also retain any spell-like abilities they once had. They retain their raw intelligence and their original ability to make decisions, the minion's free will is not lost so he can undertake long-term functions without direct supervision.

However, the minions lose all magical and psionic powers. The wizard controls all such powers in the new union of beings. All material possessions are distributed by the controlling wizard unless an item is given to the minion by the wizard, or unless the wizard gives the minion specific instructions to obtain and use it, the minion ignores it.

The wizard has complete overriding control of his magical minions. Through concentration, he can know everything that the minion knows its location, situation, and emotional state. The wizard can see through the minion's eyes and use its other senses. His instructions to the minion will be carefully fulfilled. When the wizard is not concentrating, he knows nothing of his minions, but they can contact him empathically if they wish.

The wizard can cast magical spells and use psionic powers through his minions, no matter what the physical distance between them. Minions are especially deadly opponents since it is the wizard who must employ the various components, not the minion. Once the wizard casts a spell through a particular minion, the spell immediately works without action on the minion's part. Similarly, psionic checks are made and strength points spent by the wizard, but the effects can be channeled through the minion with but a thought. When these things are done, range and area of effect are measured from the minion's viewpoint, not the caster's. The minion cannot act in its own right while the wizard is using it this way. The connection does not work between different planes.

The strong link between wizard and minions can be dangerous as well. When a minion is destroyed, the wizard must save vs. death magic or be stunned for 1d6 turns. The wizard also loses experience points equal to ten times the minion's XP value. The wizard cannot gain further experience points until the minion is either replaced or its death is avenged. The loss of a minion disrupts the casting time or preparation time of all spells in development.

Also, opponents can use a minion to locate and psionically attack the wizard. If the minion's mind is controlled through domination or similar magic, psionic powers can be launched through it against the wizard, regardless of distance.

A wizard can have only one set of minions at a time. If all are slain, he can start a new set after a period of three years. No minion can serve more than one wizard.

The material components for this spell are possessions, once prized by the minions that are no longer needed in the wizard's service.

Subnote: I dispute this spell being a Conjuration Spell, and I dispute it "creating undead minions". By the wording it doesn't kill or revive targets and it doesn't create, move, or conjure anything. This spell seems predominantly like an Enchantment spell to me.

[Mr.PC0X]

Why don't you use the alternative XP progression found on the same page of UA? 432,000 XP is only 2x the XP of going from 15th to 16th level and approximately the cost of going from 17th to 18th. going from level 20 to 21 and it's less than half. From 23rd to 24th it's ~1/7th the level.

If you don't, just don't multiply the XP value by 10. You can get this by reverse engineering the Spell XP costs table on the very next page. Also, thought bottles do exist.

Because, with all due respect, I'm not proficient with this system and haven't played it in over a decade. I'm trying to convert the spells for my own benefit and I want to keep them as close to their source material as possible, but I'm doing it on my own and I'm a little bit out of my element, especially where it concerns the vast treasure trove of items, class options, and the like that exist within this system. So if I ask a question which would seem obvious, it's because I quite literally don't have a clue what I'm doing other than following some vague guides and doing math.

So, just to clarify, assuming this spell is cast by a 20th level caster* (specifically a wizard) to turn six 9th level casters (such as wizards) into minions, and assuming each of those wizards is worth roughly 7200 XP each, and then assuming all of them are killed by someone/thing the resulting 10 times XP loss to the caster amounting to roughly 432,000 would be neglible as the caster at that point has 2.6 million XP. Is that the gist I'm getting from this?

[icefractal]

This wouldn't be a straight conversion, but personally I'd base it on the XP cost for similar spells rather than trying to convert that aspect directly.

While there aren't any directly similar spells, there are some candidates that create indefinite-duration minions or provide a related effect:
* Simulacrum: 100 / HD, minimum 1000
* Ice Assassin: 5000
* Mind Seed: 3000
* Permanent Telepathic Bond: 2500

That said, even if the cost was small, the drawbacks of this spell are quite large! Not being able to gain XP until you avenge the minion, or three years if you can't? Being subject to mental attacks via the minion? Those make me wonder whether it's worth it.

Although being able to cast spells remotely is pretty potent, and there is the "The wizard controls all such powers in the new union of beings" part - would that mean that you can minion-ize some other casters and become an ultra-theurge, while keeping those minions safe in your fortress? So maybe the downsides are merited, but they really push it toward "don't send your minions anywhere dangerous".

[ciopo]

Is this wizard someone that the party is expected to defeat/clash with?

If that is so, this minion mechanics feels interesting to me, because it makes for an interesting delving scenario: wizard is described as powerful, BUT if they defeat the minions first, they can weaken him!

I would tune the wizard levle vs the minion levels such that he'd lose 4 levels at most if all minions are hunted down first, which is "losing two spell levels" as far as tuning go, so instead of being, I don't know, a party capable of 4th level spell dieing horribly against a caster capable of 8th level spell, it'll be "only" 6th level spell ( or whatever numbers you feel is appropriate for a boss encounter, I'm spitballing now)

[Mr.PC0X]

Is this wizard someone that the party is expected to defeat/clash with?

If that is so, this minion mechanics feels interesting to me, because it makes for an interesting delving scenario: wizard is described as powerful, BUT if they defeat the minions first, they can weaken him!

I would tune the wizard levle vs the minion levels such that he'd lose 4 levels at most if all minions are hunted down first, which is "losing two spell levels" as far as tuning go, so instead of being, I don't know, a party capable of 4th level spell dieing horribly against a caster capable of 8th level spell, it'll be "only" 6th level spell ( or whatever numbers you feel is appropriate for a boss encounter, I'm spitballing now)

I'm not gonna lie, that thought did cross my mind. I thought it would be a neat spell for an enemy wizard to get a hold of too. Plus, with the part about a minion stops being a minion if slain and brought back I was thinking about perhaps forcing an NPC the party might care about into becoming a minion, only for the party to be forced to kill them to save them. Evil cult leader kind of thing.