Blade Singer Build Tips

[Onslaught]

Hello,

I'm expecting to play a Bladesinger soon and I'd like tips and commentaries on my current build:

Race: High Elf
Class: Wizard (Bladesinger)
Abilities:
STR 8
DEX 15 -> 17 (+2 Elf)
CON 14
INT 15 -> 16 (+1 Elf)
WIS 10
CHA 8



Lvl 1:

Cantrips: Booming Blade, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation, Tool of the Dead

1st Level Spells: Absorb Elements, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Find Familiar, Shield, Sleep

Lvl2:

Silvery Barbs, Mage Armor

Lvl 3:

Mirror Image, Web

Lvl 4:

ASI: Elven Accuracy for 18 DEX and Super Advantage

Mind Sliver (Cantrip), Shadow Blade, Suggestion

Lvl 5:

Fireball, Slow

Lvl 6:

Counterspell, Haste

Lvl 7:

Evards Black Tenctacles, Greater Invisibility

Lvl 8

ASI: +2 Int

Resilient Sphere, Pholymorph

Next levels aren't as thought out.

Strategies include:
- Use Owl Familiar to trigger Advantage
- Prioritize CC, have access to support spells for melee
- Target Greater Invisibility + Elven Accuracy is the main source of melee power

Things I'm still torn about...
- Using Elven Accuracy or Telekinesis (swapping racial bonus for Int and Dex)
- Not getting Greenflame Blade (seems redundant with Booming Blade)
- Skipping some nice Lvl 2 and 3 spells (Misty Step, Flaming Sphere, Ashardalon's Stride, Spirit Shroud, Hypnotic Pattern)

[Eldariel]

If you can swap the race, I'd just go Eladrin or Shadar-kai (MPMM) to get the Teleport with Advantage in there. Other than that, your build seems fine though I don't like Greater Invis too much; it's a decent ability, but offensively speaking you could do more with Shadow Blade in most cases and at range, Haste lets you kite to the ends of the Earth, which seems more valuable. Speaking of kiting, I'd probably pick up Phantom Steed over a 3rd level (or even a 4th level) spell known since that's just so, so good for staying out of range and getting value out of your Longbow and Minor Illusion/Mold Earth/Shape Water (my favourite cantrips; Shape Water and Mold Earth can simply provide you with almost any degree of cover in combo with the Bladesinger Extra Attack, and they solve a lot of problems incidentally and if anyone in the party has Water Walk, Shape Water almost lets you fly [Tenser's Floating Disk can be used to keep moldable earth available]).

Also, over Toll/Mind Sliver, do pick up one attack roll cantrip for range; Firebolt or Chill Touch lets you do stuff at 120' (I prefer Chill Touch since it does a more reliable damage type and randomly solves a bunch of annoying enemies but either is fine). I agree that GFB is, while nice, probably not worth the slot. I also don't like Mirror Image that much since it doesn't work with Bladesong and takes your action; if you want a Conc-free defense spell, pick Blink instead. For level 2 spells, Levitate is a nice offensive option that also makes up for your inability to cover 3d distances, Magic Mouth is amazing as a 30' detector that has various utility functions, etc.


I would definitely pack at least one Summon spell there; Summon Undead, Summon Shadowspawn and Summon Greater Demon are all great (SGD is the best and easiest to fit as your 4ths are much less replaceable than your 3rds). For scouting, combat, random problem solving, they excel on all fronts.

I like Elven Accuracy with Minor Illusion for something to shoot behind (unseen attacker), Shadowblade and Owl so do keep it IMHO. Telekinetic is nice but your bonus action is often spoken for (Bladesong, Shadow Blade, possible teleports - should definitely have Misty Step if you don't get the racials).

[RSP]

Lvl 1:

Cantrips: Booming Blade, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation, Tool of the Dead

1st Level Spells: Absorb Elements, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Find Familiar, Shield, Sleep

I’d get BB and GFB. Toll or Firebolt is fine. I’d get Mage Armor at 1, though.



Lvl 3:

Mirror Image, Web

I’d prioritize SB (assuming DM is okay with SB+GFB/BB).

If you’re planning on playing this as a melee character, SB is the way to go, imo. This is doubly true if going with EA at 4. SB grants Advantage in Dim Light or Darkness, so most times you’re benefitting, unless you have a non-Darkvision PC or are expecting lots of Bright Light environments.

I’m not a fan of Mirror Image: it costs an Action to get it going. A Bladesinger has plenty of defense baked in, AND better options than spending a turn on self only defense.

If going SB and melee, I’d prioritize non-Concentration spells for other castings. AoE damage like Fireball is great, but take the vast majority of Concentration off your board as it becomes opposed to what you’re otherwise built to do.

SB+GFB/BB+Bladesinger Extra Attack+Elven Accuracy is a great baseline at the cost of a 2nd level spell per combat.

Plus you can still take advantage of damage AoEs when appropriate/advantageous.

BB grants single target control (or added damage), while GFB gives Fire damage (for Trolls and whatnot) AND free damage sans hits for whenever enemies pair up.

You don’t need GI on this build as it will be a loss of damage compared to SB, and the added D is probably not needed, while costing a 4th level spell compared to a 2nd.

Save spell slots for SB, Shield/AW, Counterspell, and Damage AoEs. At 10+ they absorb damage too.

Feel free to upcast SB for big fights if needed.

[DarknessEternal]

- Target Greater Invisibility + Elven Accuracy is the main source of melee power


This is far too slow. A round spent doing absolutely nothing is far too much of a cost for the measly help advantage brings.

[Onslaught]

First of all, thanks for taking your time to help me. Very much appreciated!


If you can swap the race, I'd just go Eladrin or Shadar-kai (MPMM) to get the Teleport with Advantage in there.
I'll look into Eladrin, the point with Elf is more of a Lore thing since I'm playing in the Forgotten Realms with an Old School DM (and I'm also an Old School guy).


Other than that, your build seems fine though I don't like Greater Invis too much; it's a decent ability, but offensively speaking you could do more with Shadow Blade in most cases

This is far too slow. A round spent doing absolutely nothing is far too much of a cost for the measly help advantage brings.

Yeah, I'm thinking of Greater Invisbility as a Defense-Offense combo while going into melee, as part of the appeal was imposing disadvantage on enemy attacks, but getting the vibe that Shadow Blade is usually a better option, even though I'm not sure from theorycraft and experiences pont of view.


I also don't like Mirror Image that much since it doesn't work with Bladesong and takes your action; if you want a Conc-free defense spell, pick Blink instead.
I could swear that Blink was a Concentration spell!
They seem to be interchangeable, with Mirror Image better against single attack foes and short duration fights.


I’d prioritize SB (assuming DM is okay with SB+GFB/BB).

He's usually friendly to these things, and I've JC's Tweet to back it up, so I think he probably will be OK.


If going SB and melee, I’d prioritize non-Concentration spells for other castings. AoE damage like Fireball is great, but take the vast majority of Concentration off your board as it becomes opposed to what you’re otherwise built to do.
Isn't better to have some CC Concentration to deal with mobs, like... Web, Slow, Evards Black Tentacles...

I feel that if I go the AoE Damage route, I'm leaving behind the best spells while also competing with myself (AoE or SB?)

My train of though is something like "If the encounter is against a lot of enemies that are clustered, focus on CC and reduce enemy Action Economy; otherwise go melee"


Telekinetic is nice but your bonus action is often spoken for (Bladesong, Shadow Blade, possible teleports - should definitely have Misty Step if you don't get the racials).
This is genius... Telekinetic have a nice Cool Factor, but hadn't though about Bonus Action starvation

[RSP]

This is genius... Telekinetic have a nice Cool Factor, but hadn't though about Bonus Action starvation

Telekinetic is nice: I’m playing a gish now that has it (though the suggestion was misattributed to me in your post). SB and Bladesong will take up BA uses. And MS is a great call to have as well.

It’s particularly nice on ledges to push enemies off, or, if using GFB, to line enemies up within 5’ of each other.

However, it will be your 2nd or 3rd priority with BA usage.

As for CC vs direct damage AoE: Bladesingers are good and versatile, but I wouldn’t try to do everything. Either way, you want Dex and Int maxed, however, on a melee BS, you want Dex maxed first (your saves will still be fine, particularly when they take damage on a successful save).

If the enemies are clustered up, then they’re in good position for a fireball. So you could cast HP on them, then stay back and use a bow/Toll the Dead. Or, drop the Fireball and start Bladesong (if an appropriately tough seeming combat for a use of it), then start carving them up with SB+GFB.

One of those options is a lot more fun (in my opinion) and fulfilling: if the enemies roll well on their saves, you still do decent damage to a bunch of enemies when using Fireball. If they roll well on HP, you’ve basically just wasted a 3rd level slot, and now doing damage is more important as you’ve wasted your first round action and you’ll need to drop HP to get SB up anyway.

If the enemies roll poorly on HP, great: you may have made the encounter a lot easier. Same as if they had poor saves against Fireball though as they all drop a lot sooner.

Plus, if it’s not a huge threat of a combat (like a lot of lower CR enemies with no boss), Fireball in round 1 may be just as effective in shutting down the encounter as a control spell. It also in certain fights lets you forgo using SB and Bladesong; save those resources for later. Control spells can successfully let you do this as well, but dropping concentration means the encounter is back to its original difficulty, meaning it’s time spend more resources. That doesn’t happen with Fireball.

Just my opinion, but I’d generally advise going one route or the other: control can be fantastic, but usually doesn’t mix well with jumping into melee. Wizards get enough spells you can still prep one for when you think it’s really needed (I prefer Fear over HP, but both are great), but as a general rule, I’d prioritize how you want to play your PC and stick with it.

Doing what’s most fun for you is what’s important though; this is just my preference of choosing what you want to be best at, then using that, rather than trying to go routes of less effective play, hoping the dice help you out. There’ll be plenty of times you still need the dice to fall your way: give yourself the best chance to have them help you.

[Eldariel]

It's worth noting that higher Int means more spells prepared and better Bladesong Concentration too. I generally take Res: Con fairly late on Bladesingers because I like playing the ranged Bladesinger with Sharpshooter, which means that in many cases I can just stand outside the range of most enemies in some fights saving Bladesong uses and making Con-saves less likely. But on more typical BS builds it's of course the first or second feat you should take, letting you reach the +9 needed to autosucceed vs. 21 damage or less, when Bladesong is active.

Mirror Image is sadly pretty bad on Bladesingers: they have only 13-15 AC meaning most hits that hit them will miss your main body (that can easily have 20 AC with +5 from Shield) meaning you might not get any benefit whatsoever out of it. Meanwhile, Blink works on autohit abilities, AOE spells and effects, etc. too. Its only real weakness is that when you blink out, you can't Counterspell, which can be inconvenient against spellcasting enemies. But otherwise it's kinda good.


And yeah, I'd definitely make sure to pack one Wis AOE SoL, Dex AOE SoL (Web is good for getting advantage on your own attacks too) and AOE damage spell (it's hard to say "no" to Fireball since it's so efficient when it works). The cost for having "preparation for everything" is three spells known...and on this level you already know 11-13 even without magic items. You should be able to cover the rest easily enough with the remaining 8-10 spells known. One teleport, Shield/AE/Silvery, Shadow Blade, Haste, that's 6. Leaves you with two others. One 4th level spell known like Summon Greater Demon or Polymorph is nice and then pack Counterspell. If you have extra Int, you can afford vanity options like Blink, Greater Invis, Dimension Door, or company; more variety never hurts but even the basic set will have you covered for most instances (especially since you have Ritual Casting and Cantrips on top of it, both of which can do a lot of work).

Thing is, there are situations for all of them and while Hypnotic Pattern can approximate Fireball in some cases and Fireball Hypnotic Pattern or Web in others, there are lots of cases where the difference is just too massive. Like you're fighting a horde of hundred Orcs or Goblins, you will want Fireball since it finishes them off typically even on a failed save. OTOH if you're fighting high HP enemies like almost anything of higher CR, you'll just pick the appropriate AOE CC and land it there; it's always going to be preferable to doing a bit of damage to them.

Like, Elven Accuracy works on targets restrained by Web, Watery Sphere, or similar, too. Which is pretty nice for finishing targets off before they get out of the restraints.

[RSP]

It's worth noting that higher Int means more spells prepared and better Bladesong Concentration too.

Sure, but I’d still prioritize Dex on a melee build: the always “on” +1 AC and +1 to hit/dam is worth it.

For the suggested build, EA at 4 to even out Dex at 4, then Dex 20 at 8 is what I’d go with.

If assuming the 5 ASIs on the build will be:
EA (+1 Dex to make it 18)
+2 Dex (20)
+2 Int (18)
+2 Int (20)
Resilient (Con)/Warcaster

Dex has the most use throughout melee combat: it’s affecting your hit, damage, avoidance and, in that you won’t even have to make them, Conc Svs.

Int is obviously a priority as well: it helps with Wiz spells known and DCs, and when BS is active, helps AC and Conc saves.

Resilient Con/Warcaster helps with Conc saves.

On a melee BS, I’d argue Dex is the priority, for the following:

Tier 1: level 1 you’re in need of AC so your castings are Mage Armor and either Sleep to end an encounter or Shield to stay alive. But 2-5, you’re capable of getting into your build/playstyle. At 4 you get 18 Dex and EA to take advantage of SB’s Advantage and get consistent hits and extra Crits. This is, generally, added success and more fun.

Alternatively, you can increase Int, and have +1 AC/Conc saves 2x/day. And 1 extra spell prepared. But you’re generally easier to hit, thus rolling more Conc saves and worse at melee combat in general (what you’re spending your time doing). Due to limited spell slots in this tier, and the relatively simplistic combats, the extra spell prepared is less helpful.

Tier 2: you get more uses of Bladesong, which adds to the effectiveness of upping Int earlier, and you get more slots, making extra spells known a little more worthwhile.

However, you also get BS’s Extra Attack: which essentially DOUBLES the offensive effectiveness of being in melee, and of having EA with SB. You can now be at 20 Dex, meaning 10% more hits, and 10% less getting hit, vs having added Int.

You also get Synaptic Static here. Compare SS to HP: same range. HP is 30’ cube vs 20’ for SS. HP is Conc, SS isn’t. HP does nothing on a successful save, SS does 1/2 damage still.

SS is, essentially, Fireball+Super Bane without Conc.

Tier 3: in my experience, this is where defensive capabilities are really needed to be in melee. Fortunately, the combo of Shield, AE, Bladesong and Song of Defense are pretty much the best melee defense package. Plus, you get +INT to damage on melee attacks.

Tier 4: you’ve caught up either way, and should now have maxed both INT and DEX, so you’re fine either way.

In general, there’ll be niche cases in tier 2+ where you’ll want a Fear or HP, and to sit back and cast Firebolt/Toll: fighting Assassins comes to mind (Evasion and high Dex Sv means damaging AoEs aren’t recommended, SA high damage hits mean dropping Conc, so stay out of melee).

But, generally speaking, if you want to be in melee, build and act in accordance with what best supports that: which is Dex>Int>Resilient (Con). Play to your strengths (SB+GFB/BB, with damage AoEs where needed).

I just think it’s more fun when you’re more successful doing what you want to do.

Mind you, there’s nothing wrong with building a BS for control and staying out of melee to ensure Conc is preserved: it’s a great way to build a control oriented Wizard as well. It’s just a different playstyle.

As the thread wanted build advice, I’m going with “pick what you want to do, and work to be best at that.”

[Gignere]

I’m going to chime in to say you should redo your stats to fit in resilient con. I’m playing a Shadarkai Bladesinger right now and that resilient con has been enormous. Because with Bladesong up I’m exactly at +9 to con saves so I don’t have to make any rolls for con saves at all to maintain concentration for anything short of 22 damage in one hit.

Of course if you’re playing with a Paladin you might not even need the resilient con to hit the +9 to con saves.

[Unoriginal]

Remember that as a Bladesinger, you are a Wizard who can do some melee by spending ressources.

Your strengths do not lie in doing the same as what martials do.

[Gignere]

Remember that as a Bladesinger, you are a Wizard who can do some melee by spending ressources.

Your strengths do not lie in doing the same as what martials do.

I disagree you can totally step into a martial roles with the right spells and proper use of your resources. Hell just went through a marathon series of sessions where we went like 8 encounters with no rest (not even a short rest) and my Bladesinger is still tanking and DPRing in melee in the last fight.

[RSP]

Remember that as a Bladesinger, you are a Wizard who can do some melee by spending ressources.

Your strengths do not lie in doing the same as what martials do.


I disagree you can totally step into a martial roles with the right spells and proper use of your resources. Hell just went through a marathon series of sessions where we went like 8 encounters with no rest (not even a short rest) and my Bladesinger is still tanking and DPRing in melee in the last fight.

Yeah, BS can absolutely jump into melee if a) built for it, and b) the playstyle is committed to it.

I will say it’s hard to do melee and control: they don’t go well together.

But if you commit to the playstyle, plan your build, spells and slot usage around it, you’ll be fine.

If you forgo Dex for Int, though, and start each combat with your highest level slot and jump into melee; might not end as well as hoped.

Keep 1st level slots for Shield/AE. 2nd level slots for SB, and, as you reach higher levels, adjust so you can do some upcast SB and keep an extra 2nd level slot or two for Shield, you can play in melee just fine.

[Eldariel]

If you forgo Dex for Int, though, and start each combat with your highest level slot and jump into melee; might not end as well as hoped.

In long days, the trick is remembering of course that you only can melee when you have BS up. There's nothing wrong with shooting people full of holes every now and then and conserving your Bladesongs, using them only when necessary or highly beneficial. On this level, you only have 3/day so there'll still be a good few days when you might have more encounters than Bladesong uses, and ranged combat has its benefits anyways.

That said, IME martial combat and CC work incredibly well together; unlike with spells, you can ready attacks for after enemy turns so that you essentially get two turns of actions before they get to act post-Hypnotic Pattern for instance, and many CC spells like Web, Watery Sphere, Hideous Laughter, etc. can provide you with advantage too (which with Elven Accuracy is a substantial crit range increase as well, and you get extra dice from your cantrips so your crits are fairly decent).

[Frogreaver]

The only reasons to be melee in the first place are to try and do solid single target damage or to try and tank to keep an enemy off your Ally’s.

I’d suggest that in most circumstances you’ll gain more damage by using Tasha’s summoning spells or animate objects or possibly others spells than you will by shadow blade or spirit shroud. Even a fireball against a group of enemies likely performs better as well.

Thus, setting yourself up so that you can AOE control or AOE damage and then tank some of what’s left seems the ideal bladesinger playstyle to me.

In which case, I’d focus int over dex. I’d aim for a starting dex of around 16 and would likely keep it there. Hopefully I could find a str boosting item to raise my attack and damage bonuses. I’d probably take warcaster for booming blade opportunity attacks (assuming you play with that ruling) and the concentration buff. If not then probably sentinel.

That said the alternative won’t be unplayable, it’s just not leaning into your strengths as a wizard as much as you otherwise might.

[RSP]

In long days, the trick is remembering of course that you only can melee when you have BS up.

Disagree. Mage Armor + Prioritized Dex lets you be in melee even when not in Bladesong. Shield is there to mitigate hits, when needed, but an AC 17 or 18 is fine for smaller fights.

There isn’t anything wrong with staying back and using a bow (assuming Elven Weapon Training), if the battle allows for it to conserve resources.

But you can build and play a melee Bladesinger. Yeah, you want to use Bladesong in big fights, but it isn’t unplayable without it.

Note: I’m not particularly interested in optimization here. My understanding is the OP wants a melee build. In my experience, melee BS works fine, and it’s more about committing to playing that way than any sort of ineffectiveness.

If wanting to play in melee, I find it’s less fun to be standing away from melee to preserve your big spell.

Also, once in Tier 3, Tenser’s Transformation works fine in place of a BS, conserving a BA use, Shield and SB uses.

[Catullus64]

I'm a big advocate of Mobile on Bladesingers who want to be in close combat. It means a lot more mileage out of your +10 movement speed, and helps avoid quite a lot of damage, provided your party has other primary melee fighters to hold the line. You can also get more Booming Blade bonus damage triggers by kiting the enemy. Consider putting off the other ASI/Feats in favor of that, 16/17 will serve you just fine until Level 8.

Mage Armor isn't terribly vital since you have light armor proficiency. Get another utility or crowd control spell instead, would be my advice. If you must have Mage Armor, take it at 1st Level before you get your armor & Bladesong.

Depending on if you're starting at 1st level or higher, I might have other recommendations.

[Gignere]

Disagree. Mage Armor + Prioritized Dex lets you be in melee even when not in Bladesong. Shield is there to mitigate hits, when needed, but an AC 17 or 18 is fine for smaller fights.

There isn’t anything wrong with staying back and using a bow (assuming Elven Weapon Training), if the battle allows for it to conserve resources.

But you can build and play a melee Bladesinger. Yeah, you want to use Bladesong in big fights, but it isn’t unplayable without it.

Note: I’m not particularly interested in optimization here. My understanding is the OP wants a melee build. In my experience, melee BS works fine, and it’s more about committing to playing that way than any sort of ineffectiveness.

If wanting to play in melee, I find it’s less fun to be standing away from melee to preserve your big spell.

Also, once in Tier 3, Tenser’s Transformation works fine in place of a BS, conserving a BA use, Shield and SB uses.

Yes exactly this, any fight that’s not hard or deadly I just tank with my non Bladesong AC and melee with my +1 rapier. Although now that I can cast Shadowblade 5x a day (6 with arcane recovery) I’ve been using SB even in the easier fights.

[RSP]

Mage Armor isn't terribly vital since you have light armor proficiency. Get another utility or crowd control spell instead, would be my advice. If you must have Mage Armor, take it at 1st Level before you get your armor & Bladesong.

Depending on if you're starting at 1st level or higher, I might have other recommendations.

Good point about Light Armor Prof, but I’d wait until you have +1 Studded to switch out.

The difference is 1 AC, but I like having as much AC as possible when in melee - you’ll take attacks throughout the day. Not only is it a couple hits a day you can avoid, but it’s another couple hits you can prevent with Shield, if needed.

Shield is more effective the higher your AC, and it’s also more efficient in that you need it less, the higher your base AC.

Just my experience, but playing for melee is more important than worrying about more spell options, when your intent is to be in melee.

If your intent is to have as many spell options as possible, I think you’re going to have more fun, and success, avoiding melee. The Wizard is a very flexible class, but it can’t really do everything.

[Rukelnikov]

I don't like Mirror Image much, its AC is pretty bad, so hits that would've missed you anyways still can take an image out if they end up targeting it. Its good as an extra layer of defense if for some reason you can go "full buff". I'd take Blur at level 3.

[Gignere]

I don't like Mirror Image much, its AC is pretty bad, so hits that would've missed you anyways still can take an image out if they end up targeting it. Its good as an extra layer of defense if for some reason you can go "full buff". I'd take Blur at level 3.

I second this MI is pretty bad on BS, it’s much better on the low AC typical wizard. Blur is fantastic as disadvantage becomes even better the higher your AC as each point of AC scales exponentially. What I mean by this is that the odds of you getting hit is scaled exponentially. When the enemy has 1/10 chance of hitting you normally going to 1/20 means the probability of hitting you just went from 1/100 to 1/400 with disadvantage. Blur is just nuts on a Bladesinger.

[RSP]

I second this MI is pretty bad on BS, it’s much better on the low AC typical wizard. Blur is fantastic as disadvantage becomes even better the higher your AC as each point of AC scales exponentially. What I mean by this is that the odds of you getting hit is scaled exponentially. When the enemy has 1/10 chance of hitting you normally going to 1/20 means the probability of hitting you just went from 1/100 to 1/400 with disadvantage. Blur is just nuts on a Bladesinger.

Yes and no. Blur is very effective, however, it’s also an Action to cast, and cost Concentration.

It certainly a good option for a highly defensive situation: let’s say the BS is the only PC within the enemies’ range, so the BS will be eating attacks, and the rest of the party is capable damage dealers at range. Blur is great here (as is using Blade Ward).

However, BSers don’t really have much to keep attackers on them. So if the options are going after the impossible to hit PC, or the easier to hit other PCs, the BS will be ignored.

What makes the BS a target is when they’re either doing a lot of damage, or controlling the battlefield with a Conc spell the enemy wants to break.

If you’re using your Conc on Blur, you’re not using it on damage or control. If your first Action in combat is to cast Blur, enemies will focus on other PCs who are a) more effectively harming them, and b) easier to take down.

If you cast Blur to only then stay back and launch damage AoE’s, why not save that 3rd level slot and just launch damage AoE’s a round earlier.

Blade Ward has similar (and complementary) effects and situations where you’d want it, with less cost: it can be cast in lieu of an Attack once EA is in play, and doesn’t cost Conc or a slot.

Now, a lot of this is about play style, which can be greatly influenced by your group. If you have lots of damage dealers vs other controllers, or melee vs ranged teammates, you can plan accordingly.

To me, only certain situations call for Blur, so it’s not a go-to strategy. However, it is a situation that can realistically occur multiple times in a campaign depending on group tactics, so is a worthwhile addition to the BS’ tool kit, much like Blade Ward.

[Gignere]

Yes and no. Blur is very effective, however, it’s also an Action to cast, and cost Concentration.

It certainly a good option for a highly defensive situation: let’s say the BS is the only PC within the enemies’ range, so the BS will be eating attacks, and the rest of the party is capable damage dealers at range. Blur is great here (as is using Blade Ward).

However, BSers don’t really have much to keep attackers on them. So if the options are going after the impossible to hit PC, or the easier to hit other PCs, the BS will be ignored.

What makes the BS a target is when they’re either doing a lot of damage, or controlling the battlefield with a Conc spell the enemy wants to break.

If you’re using your Conc on Blur, you’re not using it on damage or control. If your first Action in combat is to cast Blur, enemies will focus on other PCs who are a) more effectively harming them, and b) easier to take down.

If you cast Blur to only then stay back and launch damage AoE’s, why not save that 3rd level slot and just launch damage AoE’s a round earlier.

Blade Ward has similar (and complementary) effects and situations where you’d want it, with less cost: it can be cast in lieu of an Attack once EA is in play, and doesn’t cost Conc or a slot.

Now, a lot of this is about play style, which can be greatly influenced by your group. If you have lots of damage dealers vs other controllers, or melee vs ranged teammates, you can plan accordingly.

To me, only certain situations call for Blur, so it’s not a go-to strategy. However, it is a situation that can realistically occur multiple times in a campaign depending on group tactics, so is a worthwhile addition to the BS’ tool kit, much like Blade Ward.

I agree its not a go to in every encounter but it’s strong (nearly broken) when it is needed. With booming blade the BS is stickier than most melee anyway. Certainly much better than MI or Blink.

[Frogreaver]

Yes and no. Blur is very effective, however, it’s also an Action to cast, and cost Concentration.

It certainly a good option for a highly defensive situation: let’s say the BS is the only PC within the enemies’ range, so the BS will be eating attacks, and the rest of the party is capable damage dealers at range. Blur is great here (as is using Blade Ward).

However, BSers don’t really have much to keep attackers on them. So if the options are going after the impossible to hit PC, or the easier to hit other PCs, the BS will be ignored.

What makes the BS a target is when they’re either doing a lot of damage, or controlling the battlefield with a Conc spell the enemy wants to break.

If you’re using your Conc on Blur, you’re not using it on damage or control. If your first Action in combat is to cast Blur, enemies will focus on other PCs who are a) more effectively harming them, and b) easier to take down.

If you cast Blur to only then stay back and launch damage AoE’s, why not save that 3rd level slot and just launch damage AoE’s a round earlier.

Blade Ward has similar (and complementary) effects and situations where you’d want it, with less cost: it can be cast in lieu of an Attack once EA is in play, and doesn’t cost Conc or a slot.

Now, a lot of this is about play style, which can be greatly influenced by your group. If you have lots of damage dealers vs other controllers, or melee vs ranged teammates, you can plan accordingly.

To me, only certain situations call for Blur, so it’s not a go-to strategy. However, it is a situation that can realistically occur multiple times in a campaign depending on group tactics, so is a worthwhile addition to the BS’ tool kit, much like Blade Ward.

I agree with most, I’d just add that For the non short rest recharge blade singer that blur gives him a solid path to melee in lieu of blade song in encounters that he can 1) prebuff and 2) aren’t overly difficult. It’s also not extremely resource expensive especially considering it’s only a 2nd level slot and likely saves a shield spell or 2.

[Gignere]

I agree with most, I’d just add that For the non short rest recharge blade singer that blur gives him a solid path to melee in lieu of blade song in encounters that he can 1) prebuff and 2) aren’t overly difficult. It’s also not extremely resource expensive especially considering it’s only a 2nd level slot and likely saves a shield spell or 2.

Also I must be playing a different game then most a lot of encounters takes almost a full turn before you can effectively do anything unless you’re just dashing into bad positioning. So usually taking your first turn to buff is a non issue. Blur + bladesong move into advantageous position, the white room of dpr starting the second initiative is rolled is probably the exception and not the rule.

[Frogreaver]

I second this MI is pretty bad on BS, it’s much better on the low AC typical wizard. Blur is fantastic as disadvantage becomes even better the higher your AC as each point of AC scales exponentially. What I mean by this is that the odds of you getting hit is scaled exponentially. When the enemy has 1/10 chance of hitting you normally going to 1/20 means the probability of hitting you just went from 1/100 to 1/400 with disadvantage. Blur is just nuts on a Bladesinger.

So if an enemy has a 1/100 chance to hit you then their DPR for the round is almost certainly less than 1 (more than 1 would require they do over 100 damage). Going from taking 1 DPR per round to .25 per round doesn’t seem worth the additional ac investment even if it is exponentially scaling.

[Gignere]

So if an enemy has a 1/100 chance to hit you then their DPR for the round is almost certainly less than 1 (more than 1 would require they do over 100 damage). Going from taking 1 DPR per round to .25 per round doesn’t seem worth the additional ac investment even if it is exponentially scaling.

Just using easy numbers to illustrate the point but it’s the same whether it’s 20% chance of hitting you to 15%, disadvantage just scales exponentially. With shield spell you can literally be in a situation where unless the DM rolls double 20 he can’t hit you even though normally he’d have a solid 30% chance of landing a hit.

[Frogreaver]

Just using easy numbers to illustrate the point but it’s the same whether it’s 20% chance of hitting you to 15%, disadvantage just scales exponentially. With shield spell you can literally be in a situation where unless the DM rolls double 20 he can’t hit you even though normally he’d have a solid 30% chance of landing a hit.

Your first claim was each point of ac while having disadvantage scales exponentially. I refuted that such matters. Now you’ve changed the claim without acknowledging that rebuttal. Not sure how to respond to that.

Note: you mean quadratically, not exponentially, but that’s a rather minor point.

[RSP]

Your first claim was each point of ac while having disadvantage scales exponentially. I refuted that such matters. Now you’ve changed the claim without acknowledging that rebuttal. Not sure how to respond to that.

Note: you mean quadratically, not exponentially, but that’s a rather minor point.

AC does reach a point of diminishing returns, but one of the fun things regarding a Bladesinger, is how many options for raising AC (and Defense in general) there are.

You can have Studded + Dex, for 15-17 AC.
You can opt for Mage Armor + Dex for 16-18 AC
You can Shield for +5
You can add Bladesong for +Int (+3-5, usually)
You can add Blur/Greater Invis for Disadv on attacks against you
You can add Blade Ward for PSB Resist
You can add MI
You can add Blink

Other than having to choose which formula you use between light armor or Mage Armor, I think you could actually have all of the above up at the same time (not that I recommend doing so).

So, having a high base AC (say 18 or 19) leads to a lot of ways to mitigate incoming damage from attacks, which could skew those AC with Disadvantage numbers in different ways, depending on what’s used that turn.

[Onslaught]

Again I'd like to thank all you guys who came here and took your time to share your points of view and experiences. It's been a long time since I've asked for community like this help, wasn't expecting this much contribution. Thanks!


One of those options is a lot more fun (in my opinion) and fulfilling: if the enemies roll well on their saves, you still do decent damage to a bunch of enemies when using Fireball. If they roll well on HP, you’ve basically just wasted a 3rd level slot, and now doing damage is more important as you’ve wasted your first round action and you’ll need to drop HP to get SB up anyway.

Yeah, I'm torn between this approach and the "optional" one, as HP reduces enemy Action Economy and thus tip the combat in favor of the party. Alas, that's all theorycraft and the more I read this thread, the more I feel there are two components that makes these things hard to judge: 1) Context/situational component; 2) Personal preference.


(I prefer Fear over HP, but both are great)
Why?

I feel this level has a lot of CC spells competing between themselves, all of them depending on Concentration: Hypnotic Pattern, Fear, Slow... probably I'm missing others. Between friendly fire and type of save, HP seems the best option for me... but it's been a while since I play (and theorycraft).


It's worth noting that higher Int means more spells prepared and better Bladesong Concentration too. I generally take Res: Con fairly late on Bladesingers because I like playing the ranged Bladesinger with Sharpshooter, which means that in many cases I can just stand outside the range of most enemies in some fights saving Bladesong uses and making Con-saves less likely. But on more typical BS builds it's of course the first or second feat you should take, letting you reach the +9 needed to autosucceed vs. 21 damage or less, when Bladesong is active.
It does make the build more "stable" in melee, but I think it kind of misses the "fun" factor... the other alternatives changes how the character is played (Mobile hit & run, Telekinetic BB+Push, Elven Accuracy forces to fight in darkness and hardly misses)...
The other trade off is, actually, ASI's to improve Dex and Int... currently I'm leaning into RSP's progression: EA (18 DEX) -> Dex-> Int -> Int-> Resilient or Warcaster


Meanwhile, Blink works on autohit abilities, AOE spells and effects, etc. too. Its only real weakness is that when you blink out, you can't Counterspell, which can be inconvenient against spellcasting enemies. But otherwise it's kinda good.
I fear Blink is not reliable, and in my hands will work like this:
1st) Cast Blink as Pre Buff
2nd) Roll "You Stay in Material Plane" for 5 rounds straight
3rd) End of combat



And yeah, I'd definitely make sure to pack one Wis AOE SoL, Dex AOE SoL (Web is good for getting advantage on your own attacks too) and AOE damage spell (it's hard to say "no" to Fireball since it's so efficient when it works). (...)
This was a great guideline on how structure the spell pool, thank you! Gave me confidence in the way I'm planning the character.

Actually, I managed to change from High Elf to Eladrin... fits the lore/theme, and the Short Rest Misty Step is great (also conserves spell prepared and a few slots).




You also get Synaptic Static here.
I hadn't seen that spell... the area of effect is a bit meh, but also fits the theme...


But, generally speaking, if you want to be in melee, build and act in accordance with what best supports that: which is Dex>Int>Resilient (Con). Play to your strengths (SB+GFB/BB, with damage AoEs where needed).

I just think it’s more fun when you’re more successful doing what you want to do.
That overview on character progression was also amazing, thanks!

Currently it's not clear what the party will be, but it's leaning to...
Moon Druid
Bard (I think even the player don't know what to do)
Grave Cleric (that will work mostly as a Meat Shield / Support)
Ranger TWF


I’m going to chime in to say you should redo your stats to fit in resilient con. I’m playing a Shadarkai Bladesinger right now and that resilient con has been enormous. Because with Bladesong up I’m exactly at +9 to con saves so I don’t have to make any rolls for con saves at all to maintain concentration for anything short of 22 damage in one hit.
How high is your AC? And how common you get to roll that in your experience?

Because DC 10 with +5 (+2 CON + 3 INT) isn't that bad... expecially if I manage to get Bardic Inspiration (or any kind of Inspiration) to keep the spell up.


Depending on if you're starting at 1st level or higher, I might have other recommendations.

I'm starting Lvl 1, yes :)

Just planning ahead, a habit I got from the 3.0 / 3.5 days... and because I think this kind of character needs to be well thought out beforehand in order to be effective and fun.


Also I must be playing a different game then most a lot of encounters takes almost a full turn before you can effectively do anything unless you’re just dashing into bad positioning. So usually taking your first turn to buff is a non issue. Blur + bladesong move into advantageous position, the white room of dpr starting the second initiative is rolled is probably the exception and not the rule.
I agree that most of time one round of prebuff is acceptable... but those are the "easier" fights. Ambushes tend to be a lot harder, and have a character that can "come on line" in the first round means more survivability.

[Rukelnikov]

I agree that Blur won't make you a better tank for your team, since its highly likely enemies go for easier to hit targets, but at lvl 3, you may not have the resources needed to effectively be the tank for your party, namely HP and spell slots, and as others have said it can be a replacement for when you run out of Bladesinging uses.

[Frozenstep]

Why?

I feel this level has a lot of CC spells competing between themselves, all of them depending on Concentration: Hypnotic Pattern, Fear, Slow... probably I'm missing others. Between friendly fire and type of save, HP seems the best option for me... but it's been a while since I play (and theorycraft).

You're right, there's a lot of good CC at this level competing. HP is amazing, and even though it has plenty of weaknesses, it's a solid choice unless you know you're going against charm-immune foes.

But for a bladesinger specifically, Fear has some extra perks and some of its downsides matter way less. The extra speed and the fact a bladesinger might be closer to the action, if not tangled up in melee, makes it easier to maneuver to a good spot for a cone to hit multiple enemies while avoiding allies. Also, once an enemy is feared, you could potentially just walk up and get an opportunity attack on them when they run on their turn, and you can position yourself to force them to run away from their allies or something, whatever works best, since the enemy is forced away from you. You also have an easier time chasing a running enemy down to avoid it getting out of line of sight.

[RSP]

But for a bladesinger specifically, Fear has some extra perks and some of its downsides matter way less. The extra speed and the fact a bladesinger might be closer to the action, if not tangled up in melee, makes it easier to maneuver to a good spot for a cone to hit multiple enemies while avoiding allies. Also, once an enemy is feared, you could potentially just walk up and get an opportunity attack on them when they run on their turn, and you can position yourself to force them to run away from their allies or something, whatever works best, since the enemy is forced away from you. You also have an easier time chasing a running enemy down to avoid it getting out of line of sight.

This plus a line in the spell that I think is very pertinent: on a failed save, the affected creatures “drop whatever it is holding”.

So cast it on humanoids or giants, and, even if they pass their save after the initial round of running, they’re fighting without weapons. DMs, in my experience, have had enemies do stuff like draw daggers, but with stuff like Fire Giants wielding Great Swords, it doesn’t really make sense they then draw their back up great sword so I’d rather face 1+Str damage, or 1d4+Str damage, than 2d6+Str…plus if it’s a poisoned or, even better, magic weapon the enemy has, it’s worth removing it from the equation. Flametongue wielders, for instance, are great targets for Fear. (Note: if you really want to win the combat, ask the DM for a description of the humanoids/giants before casting Fear: it makes it less likely they have a back up giant weapon that was completely unnoticed prior to casting…)

HP has the flaw of enemies can awaken their affected friendlies. And I dislike the not being able to damage them, though it’s easily workable with your own group.

[Eldariel]

I always just pick up Hypnotic Pattern. It has the longest range meaning it works when you're dealing with annoying kiting enemies; it's a huge box meaning it can hit a ton of enemies; and it completely removes the enemies from the fight! Like I've seen 4 Hunter Sharks and 5 Chuul all get caught in a single Hypnotic Pattern (because they were ganging up on the lone character they could reach) and all fail their save. That's like 633 HP of enemies removed from combat with a single level 3 spell; that kind of efficiency is almost impossible to find elsewhere.

My philosophy for picking spells is pick the generalist spells with big upsides. When they don't work? Well, that's why you have your other spells; you probably weren't gonna HP a charm-immune enemy anyways, since charm immune enemies tend to have pretty good Wis-saves (or then they are weird). And when it works, it works great


As for Blink...by same logic you'll never hit an attack roll. I wouldn't recommend bothering with that logic. Honestly, you don't need auxiliary layers of defense most of the time; even Blink is largely unnecessary as is MI/Blur. Greater Invis is also useful offensively and provides utility too so it's a better pick to this end, but I wouldn't typically bother with the pure defense options on a Bladesinger since BS natural defenses are so great.

[Frozenstep]

This plus a line in the spell that I think is very pertinent: on a failed save, the affected creatures “drop whatever it is holding”.

So cast it on humanoids or giants, and, even if they pass their save after the initial round of running, they’re fighting without weapons. DMs, in my experience, have had enemies do stuff like draw daggers, but with stuff like Fire Giants wielding Great Swords, it doesn’t really make sense they then draw their back up great sword so I’d rather face 1+Str damage, or 1d4+Str damage, than 2d6+Str…plus if it’s a poisoned or, even better, magic weapon the enemy has, it’s worth removing it from the equation. Flametongue wielders, for instance, are great targets for Fear. (Note: if you really want to win the combat, ask the DM for a description of the humanoids/giants before casting Fear: it makes it less likely they have a back up giant weapon that was completely unnoticed prior to casting…)

And that's when your DM reveals the great swords were weapons of legacy, and with a "pwok!" and burst of green fire, they teleport back into their wielder's hands. :tongue:

[Onslaught]

And that's when your DM reveals the great swords were weapons of legacy, and with a "pwok!" and burst of green fire, they teleport back into their wielder's hands. :tongue:

That means that when we defeat the Giants, we have Weapons of Legacy for us (or to sell)... AMAZING!

[Gignere]

To OP I think it really depends on your character concept and what you want to achieve with your Bladesinger PC. My current Bladesinger is reskinned as a sword saint (Kensai) so I am focused on building a wizard with minimal buffs that can stand toe to toe with the biggest and meanest NPC in play.

I don’t want to cc the field (done that with my divination wizard) so I pick spells that satisfies a wuxia style sword saint over flashy spells like hypnotic pattern or even fireball. I focus on stuff like Shadowblade/blur/gift of alacrity, I even reskinned counterspell as my character cutting at the other spell casters connection to the weave.

I didn’t know if I could do it when I rolled the character but it’s working out really well right now. I am a badass Kensai dueling the biggest baddest mofos.

[RSP]

To OP I think it really depends on your character concept and what you want to achieve with your Bladesinger PC.

I’m a big fan of fun, play style, and theme over optimization.

[Onslaught]

I’m a big fan of fun, play style, and theme over optimization.

I agree with you, I just tend to suffer if I go with a Theme that works so poorly that my character end up sucking... or, what I usually say is, optimize the concept.

In this case, I'm going with a classic Forgotten Realms Elf Bladesinger concept... so some things are off the table: Goblin, Shadar Kai... and certain things are expected, like: be at melee.



To OP I think it really depends on your character concept and what you want to achieve with your Bladesinger PC. My current Bladesinger is reskinned as a sword saint (Kensai) so I am focused on building a wizard with minimal buffs that can stand toe to toe with the biggest and meanest NPC in play.
That's awesome!

I'll probably risk the concentration / resilient stuff, just because Elven Acc fits more the concept... and hope for the best heheh

[tieren]

For my bladesinger I choose spells that compliment the melee style and don't tempt me to just stand back and do the normal wizard thing.

First level slots are for defense; shield, absorb elements, silvery barbs
Second level is for Misty Step, vortex warp or Shadow Blade
Third level is for the concentration melee buff; spirit shroud, haste, upcast SB, or counterspell
Fourth level is for Banishment, Dimension Door, Psychic Lance (especially w/ warcaster)
Fifth Level is Steel Wind Strike time.

I focus a lot on the teleportation spells and its pretty fun to have that level of maneuverability on the battlefield.
I've also learned every ritual spell I could which increases my utility in the normal wizard role stuff (identify, tiny hut, etc...)