My take on the most recent strips.

[Tubercular Ox]

So my vacation is over today, and I thought I’d send myself off with some rambling since I may not be able to post as much in the future.

I think of the story as having a goal, except it’s my goal and not Rich’s goal. Sometimes Rich changes my goal without achieving the last one. This is a plot twist.

Right now my goal is reaching the ambush point. This involves moving the party from one spot to another and I try to imagine what locations they have to visit so that no one asks questions later about why they didn’t visit it. At first I thought it was just the entrance to the final dungeon and the ambush point, but when Rich posted the swapover strip I realized that was one, too.

The scenes in between are more important, because Rich had a choice to cut them and reduce the final page count of the final book, and didn’t.

Nevertheless, the soup scene baffles me. I’m not sure what’s important from my point of view. O-Chul offered things to Belkar that we’re not expecting him to get because Belkar is plotted to die. Closing the door on things that could have been plot holes were Rich not such a careful author as to close the door on them was important, talking about stasis traps was important, but they could’ve happened on the way to the ambush, for a better feel of distance. And Belkar mumbling to himself about Paladins pushes a button that’s been pushed several times before for Belkar. Maybe Rich wanted that button pushed in the final book, he talks sometimes about thinking about the paperback when writing the strip. I actually think that about a lot of things.

I think Mimi is going to Do Things™. A joke about Rich’s evolving art style that may be superimposed on a joke about AI generated art is not worth having another character to draw and drag around. I’ll be watching her characterization closely for signs of Redshirtitis, but maybe she’s going to be a hero.

Speaking of which, the party is way too big right now and adding Mimi hurt me. We’ve got half-page establishing shots (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1268.html), extra (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1259.html) panels (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1259.html) of characters stepping away for their own stories, Game of Thrones Season 8 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1281.html) dialog to hide that we’re just establishing everyone is there as they move from one point to another, and zoom-outs. So many zoom-outs, filled with so many characters, all of which took time to draw. It’s not wrong, Rich is doing it right for this many characters, but this is not how you finish a book on time, in either page count or real time.

I would be happy if something happened to break this up, and we went to the style Rich used in Blood Runs in the Family and Utterly Dwarfed, only with larger parties.

After Mimi is Blackwing. Blackwing is necessary, because if he showed up with any lines inside the final dungeon and hadn’t had this scene, people would complain. But that means Roy’s lines are necessary and therefore they don’t have to set anything up. This could be just characterization for Blackwing. Or maybe this will come up again, you never know.

I was half-ready for the POV to switch to Team Evil after Blackwing’s strip. It would’ve caused problems, but look at Mimi. I trust Rich, therefore it could’ve happened.

I really, really hope Urdook does not join the party. Not only is he another character, but he’s big. Rich has part of him hiding off panel just so he doesn’t have to get drawn, and if Urdook joins he’s going to have to keep doing that.

The revelation about how Serini runs things has already been talked about a lot, I’ll skip it to look at the hug scene with Sunny. IIRC, this is the huggiest Serini has been with Sunny. I’ve posted what I think of this before with no takers, but I’m going to do it again because vanity.

Between Serini (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1283.html), Roy (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1274.html), Haley (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html), maybe Elan (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0914.html), V's most pivotal moment, Mr. Scruffy, and Kudzu, Rich just keeps lining up characters against child endangerment. Which isn't exactly a difficult position to hold, but I'm predicting a child gets endangered before the end and people stop everything to confront it.

In fact I’ll stop being shy and say I think it’s going to be the Monster in the Dark. With or without being revealed, with or without following orders, I think Xykon is going to order it to tank for Team Evil, and if nothing else, Haley will remember it’s a child, trigger fireworks. I think it’s going to be the last and/or greatest kick the dog for Xykon. Nothing in particular has to happen after that.

Just to show off my level of paranoia, and my respect for Rich’s ability to flesh out details, I think this is the origin story for Kudzu, and the rest of Kudzu’s story is just what Kudzu needs to be a real part of the plot.

Urdook creates the need for at least one more strip before we move on to entering the Final Dungeon, but this is in the minimalist sense that I use to follow the story. My instinct is that Urdook’s appearance so far is a little light. The Sunny-Serini scene could’ve been introduced without him. If something more significant happens in the next strip I’ll take it.

And that’s the way it is inside my head today.

[gbaji]

Eh. The story is all the stuff that happens between the beginning and the end. Yes. Rich could just jump from one conflict to the next and resolve them, like checking off boxes in a list of plot items or somethng. But I think it's pretty obvious by now that this is not how Rich writes, nor is it what he's focused on. It's not about how the story ends, but what the characters experience and how they grow along the way.

And actually setting up the motivations for the various characters to do the things they do in the story too. I just find it amusing how many people complain about how long it takes to "get to something important". But it's all the other stuff that actually makes the story "good", and which makes us care about the "important stuff" when it finally happens. Let's not be in a rush to get to the end of the story, but just enjoy it as it unfolds.

[Tubercular Ox]

You got me, everything I said has an, "Are we there yet?" tone. But I allege Rich thinks this way at some point in the production process. "Cut til it hurts" is common writing advice, Rich gossips about page counts in almost every book, and my impression is that his writing is dense, like someone who is cutting until it hurts. It's amazing how fast the story goes by if you flip pages without reading.

I imagine Rich asking himself at some point, "What is the minimum number of strips I need to create the right sense of distance between Serini's house and the ambush point?" which segues straight into my question: Which waypoints are required, and which waypoints does Rich get to make choices about?

It's not wrong to enjoy fiction as the product of a writing process.

[KorvinStarmast]

Speaking of which, the party is way too big right now Concur. Problem is, the alliance with folks that they meet along the way is necessary to deal with the World Level Problem that the Order is trying to resolve. I expect that your instinct of a considerable body count / red shirt syndrome, may be right, but I also think that when the IFCC's interrupt of Roy's quest arrives, the now bloated party will have to be split again. (See a similar set up for Ian and friends heading off to deal with Tarquin, as well as "the dwarves need to hunt down that last vampire" thread left untrimmed at the end of Utterly Dwarfed).
I
IRC, this is the huggiest Serini has been with Sunny.
He calls her Mom. Hugging Mom fits very well, and it's clear that she cares about all of the monsters whom she has brought into her inner circle.

I think Xykon is going to order it to tank for Team Evil, and if nothing else, Haley will remember it’s a child, trigger fireworks. If O-Chul is in the scene, MitD's internal conflict will be, IMO, far more important than Haley's perspective.

"Cut til it hurts" is common writing advice It is, IMO, good writing advice.

It's not wrong to enjoy fiction as the product of a writing process. That is one of the reasons I follow the strip: the writing/creative process that Rich has shared with the readers/fans along the way.

[Frozenstep]

So, I'm not sure if I'm quite on your wavelength here with this stream of thoughts, I sort of get where you're going with the whole goal-based story telling, even if I'm not sure I can agree with how you describe it.


Nevertheless, the soup scene baffles me. I’m not sure what’s important from my point of view. O-Chul offered things to Belkar that we’re not expecting him to get because Belkar is plotted to die. Closing the door on things that could have been plot holes were Rich not such a careful author as to close the door on them was important, talking about stasis traps was important, but they could’ve happened on the way to the ambush, for a better feel of distance. And Belkar mumbling to himself about Paladins pushes a button that’s been pushed several times before for Belkar. Maybe Rich wanted that button pushed in the final book, he talks sometimes about thinking about the paperback when writing the strip. I actually think that about a lot of things.

To me, stuff like the soup scene is part of the meat of the story. Seeing how characters feel about things, how they interact with each other, and where those things lead. These emotional journeys and their eventual conclusions are "the goal" for me. There's this big open question about where Belkar is going, emotion/story/plot wise. Is he going to be redeemed in the end? Fall short? Will anyone else in the order realize and care, or will they be more like "well, he was slightly less of a pain in the ass for that last part"? These uncertain parts make me want answers, want bits and information to help me see what the end of the journey could be, and at the same time each bit of information makes me want to see the conclusion even more.

The soup scene is great because it's got some funny jokes and it helps the team feel like a team (including their new and old allies. Eating together is a pretty common way of social bonding across most cultures). But also, because it gives some characters a chance to show their feelings about certain things. The fact that Belkar can be cordial with the paladins, that he can appreciate their kindness (even if it's tempered with reality), shows just how far he's come and where he's at emotionally.

It's also a chance for him to use his other skill set to benefit the team, which just...helps the character feel like the character? Like Haley occasionally doing some trap disarming or crazy diplomacy check gives her a cool moment but also makes the entire team feel more well-rounded, unique, and competent. But on top of that, I think this is the first time he's using his cooking skills for the team? Only time I've remembered him using his cooking before was for the vulture soup for monster in the dark (and maybe once during the search montage in the desert when he cooked a scorpion). So this is new, and I think it'll give the order one more thing to look back on and realize Belkar's changed. Or maybe when they look at his grave they'll say "Well...he did make some amazing soup that one time."


You got me, everything I said has an, "Are we there yet?" tone. But I allege Rich thinks this way at some point in the production process. "Cut til it hurts" is common writing advice, Rich gossips about page counts in almost every book, and my impression is that his writing is dense, like someone who is cutting until it hurts. It's amazing how fast the story goes by if you flip pages without reading.

I imagine Rich asking himself at some point, "What is the minimum number of strips I need to create the right sense of distance between Serini's house and the ambush point?" which segues straight into my question: Which waypoints are required, and which waypoints does Rich get to make choices about?

I don't think the number of strips between place A and place B matters for creating a sense of distance. Nor do I think a sense of distance is much of a goal. There are other things that need waypoints, like the "minimum number of strips" to make the upcoming ambush feel like something the order has set up and prepared for, to give Serini and Sunny a sense of mom and child, etc.

[Zarhan]

You have to realize that the "in-comic time" for all the Soup scenes and the like have only taken a few dozen minutes, but since the publishing schedule is irregular they have now been having that meetup with Serini for a year and a half now (1253 where Serini finally starts talking came out around the time Russia invaded Ukraine...). This is bound to alter perception.

[woweedd]

You're talking about a man who has, explicitly, said "conservation of detail is overrated". Also, that bit at the start about "I think of the story as having a goal, but it's my goal and not Rich's goal"...That does not sound like a healthy way to approach stories.

[brian 333]

The problem I am having is reading all the posts about how to end the comic faster.

I hope to die before the story ends, (of geriatric decline, not of accident or mayhem!) I would be happy if the story continued for another 20 years or more. In my opinion, it is far too early for the final battle and, as Serini said, the OotS does not have the juice to defeat Xykon. Yet.

So who's with me in hoping that Serini is about to schnoocker some schmucks into teleporting halfway around the planet rather than to the final dungeon?

[Aquillion]

I think that that as we approach the end of the comic, the strips are being written more with an eye towards what they'll read like in the final book than with an eye towards the drip-drip-drip of online releases. After all, the online releases will end shortly and it'll be the book that lasts.

In that context, these strips are probably our last "calm before the storm" time with these characters, so they have to serve the purpose of any last character development that isn't, like, capstone character stuff that will only happen in a big dramatic scene or the conclusion.

And it's also the last chance to flesh out supporting characters who haven't had as much screen time (notably, a lot of strips have focused on the paladins, Serini, and Sunny.)

[Sir_Norbert]

The problem I am having is reading all the posts about how to end the comic faster.

I hope to die before the story ends, (of geriatric decline, not of accident or mayhem!) I would be happy if the story continued for another 20 years or more. In my opinion, it is far too early for the final battle and, as Serini said, the OotS does not have the juice to defeat Xykon. Yet.

So who's with me in hoping that Serini is about to schnoocker some schmucks into teleporting halfway around the planet rather than to the final dungeon?

I'm on neither side. I don't want the comic's pace to increase or decrease. Rich has told a great story so far and I trust that if he continues telling the story he wants to tell, it will be better than the story it would be if we tinkered with it.

Yes, OOTS has been part of my life for so long that it will feel really strange when there is a last page, no more point checking the feed because there will never be another new OOTS strip. But the reason I've become so heavily invested and remained invested through these years is that it is a journey with a destination. It holds my attention by keeping me guessing about where the story is heading -- yes, it's 99% certain that it will end with Xykon destroyed, but I want to know what happens to the world and as many of the characters' fates as Rich decides to share with us -- and the mysteries that have been planted along the way, especially regarding the nature of the Snarl. (And, of course, I want to live to see the reveal of MitD, but that's a different kind of investment. At least, I think it is, in a way I can't really explain.)

The tension is mounting as we are obviously getting closer and closer to the destination, and I don't feel cheated by things like the soup scene, because it is still moving us forward, inch by inch. If we suddenly went halfway round the planet for an unthematic sidequest, that would feel like a betrayal at this point.

(And just to forestall the obvious way my words could be misinterpreted -- I did not feel betrayed by the story sidetracking to deal with the vampires, because (1) that was a necessary step for this story to get to its destination; (2) we were not, at that point, right on the threshold in the way we are now. Of course, knowing in advance that OOTS was intended to be seven books helped with this.)

[KorvinStarmast]

I would be happy if the story continued for another 20 years or more. Not I.

I think that that as we approach the end of the comic, the strips are being written more with an eye towards what they'll read like in the final book than with an eye towards the drip-drip-drip of online releases. Seems that way to me. And I like strips with Lien and O-Chul in them.

I did not feel betrayed by the story sidetracking to deal with the vampires, because
(1) that was a necessary step for this story to get to its destination;
(2) we were not, at that point, right on the threshold in the way we are now.
Of course, knowing in advance that OOTS was intended to be seven books helped with this.)
We also got to understand that the stakes were, in a different sense, much graver than the "stop Xykon" theme which Roy had already embraced. The reveal on how many times the deities had screwed up was for me a great moment in the comic, since it underscored that the deities can't seem to agree on much other than "let's try again, we screwed up again" as their eternal modus operandi.

If Roy/Durkon succeed in getting the purple quiddity added to the snarl's restraints, Roy hasn't just saved this world, he (and the Order) has helped to save the gods from the threat of the Snarl. Cosmic level achievement for the Order, if successful.

[Tubercular Ox]

I don't feel cheated or betrayed, and I'm not trying to hurry the story to a conclusion, although I get where people are coming from when they say that. I'm trying to see the story from the point of view of Rich writing it.


And it's also the last chance to flesh out supporting characters who haven't had as much screen time (notably, a lot of strips have focused on the paladins, Serini, and Sunny.)

Ahahaha, yes. This is why I post these things. I get tunnel vision sometimes. I'm down for this being the purpose of the part of the soup scene where it happens.


(And, of course, I want to live to see the reveal of MitD, but that's a different kind of investment. At least, I think it is, in a way I can't really explain.)

Can I try? Sometimes it helps to hear someone say something just so you can call them right or wrong. The Monster in the Dark is like a birthday present. You know it's coming, you don't know what it is, you're excited for it, but whatever it is, you know it's going to fit in a box. In theory, you could open it early, like many of us are wont to try.

How the story ends is not going to fit in a box. You can't even open it early, because it takes the whole story to tell the whole story. Which technically means you're six and a half books into opening it and still going.

[Ruck]

I wanted to write a longer response to OP, but I haven't had time. That said:


I think that that as we approach the end of the comic, the strips are being written more with an eye towards what they'll read like in the final book than with an eye towards the drip-drip-drip of online releases. After all, the online releases will end shortly and it'll be the book that lasts.

I did want to emphasize this, because it's key to understanding any questions or concerns about pacing. I'll be more definite than this post and say the strip has, for a long time now, been written with more concern as to what the final product will look like and how it will read in book form, than as periodically released as a webcomic. I know this because Rich has said precisely this.

[Sir_Norbert]

Can I try? Sometimes it helps to hear someone say something just so you can call them right or wrong. The Monster in the Dark is like a birthday present. You know it's coming, you don't know what it is, you're excited for it, but whatever it is, you know it's going to fit in a box. In theory, you could open it early, like many of us are wont to try.

How the story ends is not going to fit in a box. You can't even open it early, because it takes the whole story to tell the whole story. Which technically means you're six and a half books into opening it and still going.

That's a great metaphor. Thank you for that.

[Precure]

So my vacation is over today, and I thought I’d send myself off...Nevertheless, the soup scene baffles me. I’m not sure what’s important from my point of view. O-Chul offered things to Belkar that we’re not expecting him to get because Belkar is plotted to die.

Which is why I'm expecting the worst regarding Belkar's story: He's most likely survive by some plot twist and get an undeserved* redemption.

* Before "everyone deserves redemption :(" crowd gets here: It will be undeserved due to how fast it happened, contradicting his established character and personality.

[KorvinStarmast]

Which is why I'm expecting the worst regarding Belkar's story: He's most likely survive by some plot twist and get an undeserved* redemption. He's got a very long way to go, and it may be a journey too far to get there before his demise.

* Before "everyone deserves redemption :(" crowd gets here: It will be undeserved due to how fast it happened, contradicting his established character and personality.
But that's not Rich's position, I don't think, if we take the discourse offered by Soon's ghost as the author speaking to us (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html).


"Redemption is a rare and special thing, after all. It is not for everyone."

[Precure]

I guess by "It's a special thing" he meant "for special people" like PCs, not smelly NPCs like Miko. :smallannoyed:

[Ruck]

Which is why I'm expecting the worst regarding Belkar's story: He's most likely survive by some plot twist and get an undeserved* redemption.

* Before "everyone deserves redemption :(" crowd gets here: It will be undeserved due to how fast it happened, contradicting his established character and personality.

Geez, if I thought Rich was that bad a writer, I never would have stuck with the story to this point.

[gbaji]

Geez, if I thought Rich was that bad a writer, I never would have stuck with the story to this point.

Yeah. I do suspect there will be a twist with regards to Belkar (and I've written my prediction in another thread). But Rich is not going to have it be anything that contradicts what we've been told (not long for this world, takes his last breath, etc).

So no. He will not be working in a soup kitchen in Azure city after the adventure is over. But the point of that scene wasn't some kind of foreshadowing of Belkar's future employment, but an observation of Belkar's character development to date.

[Precure]

Geez, if I thought Rich was that bad a writer, I never would have stuck with the story to this point.

Disagreeing with some of his writing choices doesn't mean I think he's a bad writer overall. I think he regrets how much of an evil character he turned Belkar into after the first book, and tries to redeem him to justify why Roy tolerate him on his team.

[Metastachydium]

smelly NPCs like Miko. :smallannoyed:

Right? It's not Miko's fault she was born a Human!


Disagreeing with some of his writing choices doesn't mean I think he's a bad writer overall.

Disagreeing with writing choices he didn't make strikes me as odd, nevertheless.

[Precure]

Disagreeing with writing choices he didn't make strikes me as odd, nevertheless.

He's been in his puppy mode for close to 100 strips by now, and Mr. Burlew himself, in this fifth panel (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1279.html), seems like trying to tell us something.

[Metastachydium]

He's been in his puppy mode for close to 100 strips by now, and Mr. Burlew himself, in this fifth panel (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1279.html), seems like trying to tell us something.

He spent
–a book and a half being a hateful ball of wanton violence pretending to be a team-player;
–another book being an angry ball of often wanton violence who kinda cares about a select few people but can't really deal with the feeling properly; and
–less than a half book so far being an actual teamplayer who kinda cares about a few more people but still enjoys violence and is very passive-aggressive all the time.

There's nothing "abrupt" about that, and I wouldn't call any of those stages "puppy mode".

[Aquillion]

He spent
–a book and a half being a hateful ball of wanton violence pretending to be a team-player;
–another book being an angry ball of often wanton violence who kinda cares about a select few people but can't really deal with the feeling properly; and
–less than a half book so far being an actual teamplayer who kinda cares about a few more people but still enjoys violence and is very passive-aggressive all the time.

There's nothing "abrupt" about that, and I wouldn't call any of those stages "puppy mode".

Plus it was foreshadowed over 400 strips ago. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0807.html)

It's not like it's that much of a surprise.

[Precure]

It doesn't work like that. All these events take place within just few weeks

[KorvinStarmast]

He spent
–a book and a half being a hateful ball of wanton violence pretending to be a team-player;
–another book being an angry ball of often wanton violence who kinda cares about a select few people but can't really deal with the feeling properly; and
–less than a half book so far being an actual teamplayer who kinda cares about a few more people but still enjoys violence and is very passive-aggressive all the time.

There's nothing "abrupt" about that, and I wouldn't call any of those stages "puppy mode".
Not to mention spending three-and-a-half books as a one-dimensional killer with a sarcastic quip for almost ever situation.

[Metastachydium]

It doesn't work like that. All these events take place within just few weeks

Oh, no! That's terrible. Even more terrible, I dare say, than Elan reaching an epiphany in BRitF that turns him into as responsible an adult as he'll probably ever get or V's complete worldview shattering in jut a book and a half or Durkon's one book journey of self-discovery or…

It's not the years, Precure. It's the mileage. Or would you rather character development didn't happen at all to any member of the party? I mean, it's been less than a year since leaving Dorukan's Dungeon!

[Tubercular Ox]

Oh, no! That's terrible. Even more terrible, I dare say, than Elan reaching an epiphany in BRitF that turns him into as responsible an adult as he'll probably ever get or V's complete worldview shattering in jut a book and a half or Durkon's one book journey of self-discovery or…

It's not the years, Precure. It's the mileage. Or would you rather character development didn't happen at all to any member of the party? I mean, it's been less than a year since leaving Dorukan's Dungeon!

This is the kind of distance I meant when I said Rich was creating a sense of distance between Serini's home and the ambush point.

[Ruck]

Disagreeing with writing choices he didn't make strikes me as odd, nevertheless.

Yeah, that. This isn't disagreeing with a choice he's made; it's assuming he's going to make a bad choice and pre-criticizing him for it. (An assumption for which, I might add, there isn't any evidence to support.)

[Tubercular Ox]

When I said the soup scene was weird because Belkar is plotted to die, I thought everyone understood that the soup scene is weird because it suggests Belkar is going to live. I interpret Precure's comment as a recommendation to question my assumptions and imagine Belkar not dying. I was prepared to do this anyways, which is why I said "weird" and "plotted to die" and not "not gonna happen" and "going to die".

So if I make the minimum effort necessary to reach out to her position, I wonder if the soup scene weren't written to create suspense. Maybe, after slamming the "die" button as hard as possible, Rich has decided there should be more ambiguity about the outcome of Belkar's character arc. Tension, resolution, etc. etc. That would mean Precure is ahead of us. She is the first to credit Rich with the skill to turn the plot around when he wants to, even if it makes her sick, even if she can't predict how he's going to do it. She is invested in the story, and we're giving her grief for it.

And this is why I made a distinction between my goal and Rich's goal at the top of the thread. Precure is trying to see the future of a story that ends with Belkar living. I'm sure she'd object to me calling it a goal, but for the purpose of comparing it to what I tried to say earlier, it is. If Rich ends up killing Belkar, Precure is not wrong for trying to see a story that ends with Belkar living, because she is considering the consequence of evidence Rich has placed.

On my side, I think Rich is telling us that we're on our way to the ambush point, but if the IFCC ambushes the party before we get there, I'm not wrong for thinking Rich was telling us we're on the way to the ambush point at this point in time. So the goal set for me by Rich is not necessarily Rich's goal. They have to be separate, because Rich wants them to be separate.

[KorvinStarmast]

On my side, I think Rich is telling us that we're on our way to the ambush point, but if the IFCC ambushes the party before we get there, I'm not wrong for thinking Rich was telling us we're on the way to the ambush point at this point in time. So the goal set for me by Rich is not necessarily Rich's goal. They have to be separate, because Rich wants them to be separate. I am still mulling over Eugene's recent appearance, and how it fits into the larger narrative.

IFCC interrupting the ambush makes sense, as it will build dramatic tension in terms of "we need to deal with it in a hurry.

Serini and Roy have shown us how fast the Quinton will help Xykon get to his goal.
There is now a signal to the party (via the pea) that will alert them to that event when (I predict) they are up to their neck in some kind of trouble (my guess is the IFCC's devious plan is put into action, and V gets pulled away for a bit).
Roy ahs to either split the party (which has gotten kind of large) or do "something" involving risk to deal with Xykon and Redcloak arriving at their intended destination.

(But doesn't the ritual take a couple of weeks to perform? Am trying to recall where that info comes from).

[Tubercular Ox]

I was going to post this in the Discussion thread, but I guess it's here now.

If Sunny's AMF absolutely has to matter for the pea's use, then the IFCC could attack the party, Sunny would have to go into overwatch, and then Serini needs the pea because she's in Sunny's AMF. This implies Serini hanging on to the pea herself instead of taping it to Sunny, but there are various motivations she could have to achieve that, momentum being one.

If the IFCC ambushes the party before they enter the Final Dungeon, or better yet halfway through entering (remember only Serini's butt can activate the portal), then Urdook's warning could give them just a few rounds to prepare before Team Evil is on top of them. Likely Xykon would come in first, since we've been shown him flying ahead already. They need an excuse to explore past the corpses, but that could simply be the Quinton saying something Lawful about how to thoroughly check a dungeon.

That is beyond what I would normally be willing to predict, so I'll repeat this is predicated on, "Sunny's AMF absolutely has to matter for the pea's use." And I still think the pea will get a second use later on, I'm just even less inclined to predict what.

[Ionathus]

No, I don't think so little of Rich's writing & drawing ability that I worry adding an extra mimic or...whatever Urdook is...to the party will be a detriment to the comic as a whole. That's a surface-level "audience" concern in my opinion, very much like when audience members would come up to me after a stage play and, instead of asking how I got into character or managed to portray a complex emotion/moment, asked me "how did you manage to learn all those lines?? That's so impressive!" Memorizing the lines is nothing compared to the timing, emotion, characterization, and a dozen other factors. But for whatever reason, audiences always seem to think the surface-level nuts and bolts are the limiting factor.


You're talking about a man who has, explicitly, said "conservation of detail is overrated".

Keep in mind, I don't think he was saying that as it pertains to general worldbuilding and story structure -- I'm pretty sure that was in response to somebody saying "XYZ has to be a Chekhov's Gun, because there's no other reason to include minor details if they don't impact the main story." And Rich was saying no, that absolutely happens all the time, sometimes a detail is just a detail to give some flavor to a story.


I'm on neither side. I don't want the comic's pace to increase or decrease. Rich has told a great story so far and I trust that if he continues telling the story he wants to tell, it will be better than the story it would be if we tinkered with it.

Amen. I've been very satisfied with the story Rich is telling for 10 years now, I trust his pacing. While it might feel frustrating or meandering to have 10 strips in a row of "downtime" while they're being uploaded one at a time, it never reads that way in the final book or in an archive binge. Case in point...


(And just to forestall the obvious way my words could be misinterpreted -- I did not feel betrayed by the story sidetracking to deal with the vampires, because (1) that was a necessary step for this story to get to its destination; (2) we were not, at that point, right on the threshold in the way we are now. Of course, knowing in advance that OOTS was intended to be seven books helped with this.)

I struggled to get through Durkon's vampire plot when it was coming out. The constant flashback scenes of Durkon's family, the party taking AGES to figure it out...it was a slog. I wanted fights. I wanted action.

But I wouldn't change a thing about how the story culminated. The climax of UD is one of my favorite resolutions in all of fiction -- the way it all comes together, the way we get to see how Durkon became the person he is, and the reveal of his secret plan to overwhelm the HPoH; it was all incredibly worth the wait. I trust him to tell the story he has in mind, in the way he's chosen.


It doesn't work like that. All these events take place within just few weeks

Eh. Time doesn't matter to me as much as screen time. Far more drastic personality shifts have happened in less time across all of fiction. Hell, plenty of D&D campaigns go from 1-20 in less than a month, once you measure out all the in-game time.

[Peelee]

When I said the soup scene was weird because Belkar is plotted to die, I thought everyone understood that the soup scene is weird because it suggests Belkar is going to live.

It does not suggest Belkar is going to live. It suggest Belkar (and the paladins) believe Belkar will live. Which makes sense, none of them know about the prophecies.

[KorvinStarmast]

It does not suggest Belkar is going to live. It suggest Belkar (and the paladins) believe Belkar will live. Which makes sense, none of them know about the prophecies. I think that the only two characters who are sure that Belkar will die (and pretty soon) are Haley and Roy, based on their conversation near the end of Book IV. (DStP) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html)

[Peelee]

I think that the only two characters who are sure that Belkar will die (and pretty soon) are Haley and Roy, based on their conversation near the end of Book IV. (DStP) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html)

Well, I'd say three with the Oracle, but yeah, that pretty much sums up "everyone who knows about the prophecy".

[hroþila]

I thought that post meant "why would the Giant bother to talk about the arrangements for Belkar's post-OotS life if he wasn't going to live".

(And my answer to that would be, "because it shows the current state of Belkar's development: he's willing to accept his prison sentence and make the most of it without trying to game the system, and instead of antagonizing the paladins for the sake of it he's tacitly accepting their point of view")

[Sir_Norbert]

See also: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IfWeGetThroughThis

[Kish]

I thought that post meant "why would the Giant bother to talk about the arrangements for Belkar's post-OotS life if he wasn't going to live".

(And my answer to that would be, "because it shows the current state of Belkar's development: he's willing to accept his prison sentence and make the most of it without trying to game the system, and instead of antagonizing the paladins for the sake of it he's tacitly accepting their point of view")

I'd add that it would make no sense for either Belkar or the paladins to act like they know he's going to die when they don't. As well ask why Sally would look for her marble where she left it instead of going straight to where Anne moved it.

[Somniloquist]

Besides, there's a whole trope about doomed characters talking about how they're going to enjoy the rest of their lives after retirement.

[Precure]

Oh, no! That's terrible. Even more terrible, I dare say, than Elan reaching an epiphany in BRitF that turns him into as responsible an adult as he'll probably ever get or V's complete worldview shattering in jut a book and a half or Durkon's one book journey of self-discovery or…

It's not the years, Precure. It's the mileage. Or would you rather character development didn't happen at all to any member of the party? I mean, it's been less than a year since leaving Dorukan's Dungeon!

Then I demand a redemption for Xykon.

Roy: "We can end this now. It's not too late, Xykon!"

[Peelee]

Then I demand a redemption for Xykon.

Roy: "We can end this now. It's not too late, Xykon!"

Sure. But redemption is entirely built on whether the person wants it. Miko didn't want redemption, she wanted to be retroactively right; she didn't feel bad for what she did, she felt tricked. Belkar is actually feeling bad for what he did and is actively trying to change.

I doubt your demand will have the author write Xykon as feeling bad for what he did.

[Precure]

After learning about the true nature of Redcloak's plan, he'll have an epiphany about how it's wrong to use people against their will ("You and your god were using me this whole time?") and how painful it is to lose something important ("I lost my humanity for this!"). Then Roy will purify him with his green wishy washy emotional magic and turn him back to human.

[Ionathus]

Dear gods above, Precure, please use blue text here, you're scaring me :smalleek:

[Tubercular Ox]

It does not suggest Belkar is going to live. It suggest Belkar (and the paladins) believe Belkar will live. Which makes sense, none of them know about the prophecies.

I feel like we think so differently that I should go over my reaction to this post, just in case it surprises you.

What I hear you saying is, “The soup scene is justified because Belkar and the paladins are well characterized.” Maybe diverging already? Anyways, my problem with this is that I consider characterization necessary. There is never a day when Rich sits down at his desk and says, “I think I’ll mischaracterize someone this strip. It’ll be good for the story.”

I get that characterization is difficult and we can admire Rich’s skill in doing it, so maybe it’s friction between us that I use a word like “necessary”? Would it improve our relationship if we picked a different word for all the responsibilities Rich is never going to say no to?

I reserve the right to someday in the future care about the character-driven drama going on, but I opened this thread to talk about Rich’s choices, meaning the things that are not necessary in the sense defined above. For example, the soup scene is a choice. We didn’t have to have one. But we do. Rich chose it.

I’ve said in the past that I believe Rich’s choices are more important than the things that are necessary, was that a mistake? I can apologize for it. I can definitely open my mind to appreciating character more if it smooths things out between us.

But what I experience you doing is telling me a scene is sufficient so long as the necessary parts are present. There is no need for Rich’s choice to justify a scene, and therefore no purpose in examining Rich’s choice.

It feels like you are telling me to sit down and shut up about Rich’s choices in a thread I created to talk about Rich’s choices. I know you don’t mean that, which is why I’m a full page down explaining why I feel that way. To smooth things out between us.

Maybe it works in reverse? Maybe you are so bothered by my talking about the plot that you feel you have to come in and remind me that character-driven drama exists? If so, it is wonderful to learn that about you. I, too, enjoy character-driven drama. Just not right now.


I thought that post meant "why would the Giant bother to talk about the arrangements for Belkar's post-OotS life if he wasn't going to live".

Yup. And while you were mostly uninvolved, the tenor of the thread has become that I am doing it out of malice. You’re my opportunity to say that’s not true, it was always in the spirit of inquiry. I am often a dunce until someone gives me a lead. It’s related to the one-way memory thing.


(And my answer to that would be, "because it shows the current state of Belkar's development: he's willing to accept his prison sentence and make the most of it without trying to game the system, and instead of antagonizing the paladins for the sake of it he's tacitly accepting their point of view")

Good answer. So are these:

See also: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IfWeGetThroughThis


Besides, there's a whole trope about doomed characters talking about how they're going to enjoy the rest of their lives after retirement.


Which is why I'm expecting the worst regarding Belkar's story: He's most likely survive by some plot twist and get an undeserved* redemption.

And now that I’m clued in, I’d like to throw in two more:

Maybe Rich is shutting the door on people who might say in the future that Belkar sacrificed himself (assuming that’s what happens) because he only has a dismal future in prison to look forward to. Thanks to the soup scene, Belkar has a future worth having again, and if he gives it up it means more. And, nod to Precure, it also makes it more plausible that he wouldn’t go through with it.

Or maybe Rich is setting up future dialog with O-Chul about missed soup-themed opportunities, just before they do something stupidly heroic together, in a trope that lives next door to the one Sir_Norbert references.


I'd add that it would make no sense for either Belkar or the paladins to act like they know he's going to die when they don't. As well ask why Sally would look for her marble where she left it instead of going straight to where Anne moved it.

No one suggested that should be the case. Characterization is necessary and Rich is good at his job. I do not now nor have I ever come to this forum to drag Rich or his admirers. I am one of his admirers.

[Peelee]

After learning about the true nature of Redcloak's plan, he'll have an epiphany about how it's wrong to use people against their will ("You and your god were using me this whole time?") and how painful it is to lose something important ("I lost my humanity for this!"). Then Roy will purify him with his green wishy washy emotional magic and turn him back to human.
OK, so you're talking about forgiveness from Roy, which is a whole 'nother thing.:smalltongue:

I feel like we think so differently that I should go over my reaction to this post, just in case it surprises you.

What I hear you saying is, “The soup scene is justified because Belkar and the paladins are well characterized.” Maybe diverging already? Anyways, my problem with this is that I consider characterization necessary. There is never a day when Rich sits down at his desk and says, “I think I’ll mischaracterize someone this strip. It’ll be good for the story.”

I get that characterization is difficult and we can admire Rich’s skill in doing it, so maybe it’s friction between us that I use a word like “necessary”? Would it improve our relationship if we picked a different word for all the responsibilities Rich is never going to say no to?

I reserve the right to someday in the future care about the character-driven drama going on, but I opened this thread to talk about Rich’s choices, meaning the things that are not necessary in the sense defined above. For example, the soup scene is a choice. We didn’t have to have one. But we do. Rich chose it.

I’ve said in the past that I believe Rich’s choices are more important than the things that are necessary, was that a mistake? I can apologize for it. I can definitely open my mind to appreciating character more if it smooths things out between us.

But what I experience you doing is telling me a scene is sufficient so long as the necessary parts are present. There is no need for Rich’s choice to justify a scene, and therefore no purpose in examining Rich’s choice.

It feels like you are telling me to sit down and shut up about Rich’s choices in a thread I created to talk about Rich’s choices. I know you don’t mean that, which is why I’m a full page down explaining why I feel that way. To smooth things out between us.

Maybe it works in reverse? Maybe you are so bothered by my talking about the plot that you feel you have to come in and remind me that character-driven drama exists? If so, it is wonderful to learn that about you. I, too, enjoy character-driven drama. Just not right now.
I have a very difficult time understanding what you're trying to say sometimes.

The soup scene, IMO, exists to show that Belkar is coming to terms with his situation and reacting differently than he would before.

Is this "necessary", or whatever other word you want to use? Maybe, maybe not. But it doesn't seem to have any reflection on indicating that he will survive; he has no reason to think he won't survive, any more than he would have reason to think he wouldn't survive the Dungeon of Dorukan, or the siege of Azure City, or Girard's Pyramid, or any other adventures he's had. He doesn't know about the prophecy so this is business as usual for him, except for his personal growth. And the discussion with the paladins further touches on his personal growth.

Also, I'm going to try to phrase this as kindly as possible - you seem to be under the impression that I have some sort of grudge against you, or that I am being unduly rude. It's a discussion board. People discuss. Sometimes - frequently, really - people disagree. You intoned that, in your understanding, the scene suggest Belkar will live. I said, very simply and without any editorializing, that none of the characters involved have reason to imagine he won't, so it's not suggesting he will live so much as portraying characters not having meta-knowledge that the audience does.

If you feel like this is telling you to sit down and shut up, then, as kindly as I can say, you may need to grow thicker skin. It was a very straightforward, plainly-written rebuttal. I am not bothered by what you say any more than I am bothered by anything else anyone else writes. There is no personal grudge here. This was a bog-standard disagreement. I honestly don't know how I could have made it any more neutrally. If that comes across as telling you to sit down and shut up, then quite frankly I don't know how to express any disagreements with you in any way without the likelihood that you may take it as a personal attack.

[Aquillion]

Then I demand a redemption for Xykon.

Roy: "We can end this now. It's not too late, Xykon!"

You joke, but I do think that it's possible that Xykon dies pulling a screw-you on either the fiends, Redcloak, or the Dark One.

Xykon's thing is that he wants absolute freedom do whatever he wants (with the corollary that most of what he wants is awful.) If he finds out that Redcloak or the Dark One has betrayed him, or that the Fiends are using him, and he's given the choice between "lose, and let them win" or "lose, and screw them over in the process", he would definitely choose the latter and it's entirely in-character with what we've seen about him so far.

It's not exactly redemption or even character development (it's who he has always been), but it's something to consider.

[Kish]

I guess by "It's a special thing" he meant "for special people" like PCs, not smelly NPCs like Miko. :smallannoyed:
In perfect seriousness, are you confident Redcloak won't be redeemed? He's an NPC.

[Aquillion]

In perfect seriousness, are you confident Redcloak won't be redeemed? He's an NPC.
I'd honestly be shocked. It's been really really heavily indicated that he's in too deep. He might have a last-minute redemption but I genuinely do not think it's going to happen - there have been no hints at all that he has even the slightest willingness to rethink any of his position, and numerous indicators that...

Honestly, I'd go further and say that I would be less surprised if Xykon was redeemed. Both are unlikely, but Redcloak has spent his entire adult life actively coming up with justifications to make himself more and more terrible, every one of them bound by the weight of all the terrible choices he made in the past. For him to experience serious self-doubt on his overarching mission at this point would require admitting, for example, that he murdered his own brother and betrayed his own people for nothing.

Xykon, by comparison, is just a bad person who enjoys doing terrible things. He's sufficiently chaotic that nothing really stops him from deciding to do something good and then finding he enjoys it and continuing to do so, while still fighting any attempt to restrict or restrain him. He's unlikely to do so (there's been no real hint of it), but it wouldn't require a total betrayal of everything he believed and stood for the way a change of course for Redcloak would.

The only thing that I really think could make Redcloak change direction at this point is a direct order from the Dark One, which isn't going to happen for narrative reasons (the Dark One is barely a character, so the plot isn't going to hinge on his actions.)

Like, yeah, Redcloak has self-justifications for what he does, but that makes him less likely to change course.

[Kish]

I disagree with your reading of both Redcloak and Xykon, but mainly I want to know if Precure is genuinely confident that, in the comic, only PCs (Vaarsuvius and Belkar) will achieve redemption. "This is protagonist-centered morality" is a legitimate complaint; "This is redeeming a character I hate, after not redeeming a character I liked" is not.

[Ionathus]

What I hear you saying is, “The soup scene is justified because Belkar and the paladins are well characterized.” Maybe diverging already? Anyways, my problem with this is that I consider characterization necessary. There is never a day when Rich sits down at his desk and says, “I think I’ll mischaracterize someone this strip. It’ll be good for the story.”

I get that characterization is difficult and we can admire Rich’s skill in doing it, so maybe it’s friction between us that I use a word like “necessary”? Would it improve our relationship if we picked a different word for all the responsibilities Rich is never going to say no to?

I reserve the right to someday in the future care about the character-driven drama going on, but I opened this thread to talk about Rich’s choices, meaning the things that are not necessary in the sense defined above. For example, the soup scene is a choice. We didn’t have to have one. But we do. Rich chose it.

I’ve said in the past that I believe Rich’s choices are more important than the things that are necessary, was that a mistake? I can apologize for it. I can definitely open my mind to appreciating character more if it smooths things out between us.

But what I experience you doing is telling me a scene is sufficient so long as the necessary parts are present. There is no need for Rich’s choice to justify a scene, and therefore no purpose in examining Rich’s choice.

(Emphasis mine)

Well. None of it is necessary. Nothing in writing is necessary, because it all depends on the story you want to tell and the medium you want to use. You use the pieces that work the best to get people to feel the things you want them to feel -- that's it, that's the whole trick. The distinction between what's "necessary" and what's "a choice" (to use the dichotomy you outlined above) is entirely arbitrary, and not really useful as a descriptor. There's no actual true, official formula for writing or critiquing a story, despite what some Literature teachers might tell you :smallbiggrin:


I, too, enjoy character-driven drama. Just not right now.

I have a sneaking suspicion (please correct me if I'm wrong) that the distinction you're actually getting at is "plot-driven" versus "character-driven" scenes. If that's the case, then what you're saying makes more sense to me: you're seeing the scenes that push the plot forward as more tactical, nuts-and-bolts, explain-what's-physically-happening scenes, and the things in-between as being "fluff" that doesn't actually affect the plot but simply fleshes out the characters and the world. And maybe you're saying there's too much of that second part, because you feel like the story is dragging? Again, maybe I'm off base and I'm sorry if this is putting words in your mouth, but that's the only way I can really parse your statements into something that makes sense to me.

If that's the case, I see what you're saying, but also would argue that even if the plot is what provides the narrative skeleton for the story, without sufficient development of the characters I'm never going to care about what happens to them. And I'll repeat what I said before: that Utterly Dwarfed took its sweet time with the character development, and even if it took awhile to get through update-by-update, the payoff was so good that I'm loyal to the end now. Even if I wish we could get to another fighting scene soon, I'm willing to wait for the story to take the time it needs.


Yup. And while you were mostly uninvolved, the tenor of the thread has become that I am doing it out of malice.

I genuinely can't find a single instance of anyone accusing you of hating the story or arguing in bad faith. People are disagreeing with your interpretation, but that's not an accusation or an attack on you as a person.


Maybe Rich is shutting the door on people who might say in the future that Belkar sacrificed himself (assuming that’s what happens) because he only has a dismal future in prison to look forward to. Thanks to the soup scene, Belkar has a future worth having again, and if he gives it up it means more. And, nod to Precure, it also makes it more plausible that he wouldn’t go through with it.

Or maybe Rich is setting up future dialog with O-Chul about missed soup-themed opportunities, just before they do something stupidly heroic together, in a trope that lives next door to the one Sir_Norbert references.

Speaking of disagreement: one part of your discussing style that might be garnering pushback is that you're directly speculating on Rich's motives for doing something, rather than how that thing serves the story. Some people don't like that - including myself, because you can never truly know what the author is thinking1 and speculation on an author's motives can start to feel like an invasion of privacy or sound judgmental if it goes in the wrong directions. Saying "Maybe Rich is doing ABC because he wants XYZ" is a lot more personal than a neutral statement focused just on the work itself. You could just as easily phrase the above quote as "Now that Belkar has a better prison sentence to look forward to, it might be interesting to see if that makes his (hypothetical) future sacrifice harder or more meaningful." A statement that places the work first, and doesn't try to get inside the brain of the real human writing it, is often much less likely to accidentally sound presumptuous or judgmental.

In fairness, we talk a lot about Rich's intentions on this forum, I recognize that. But I do think there's a distinction between discussing the opinions/intentions he's explicitly shared, and speculating on his reasons for a minor decision that he hasn't said anything about. Maybe that's a meaningless distinction for others, but for me one is definitely more palatable than the other.

1. Until the print edition commentary pages! Or the Patreon Q&A posts. Or any of his many forum responses. All of which I love, because getting the insight from his writing process is very valuable to me. But the point is, that's all happening after the fact. He only talks about things that have already paid off, where you can look back and see the "finished" product.


I'd honestly be shocked. It's been really really heavily indicated that he's in too deep. He might have a last-minute redemption but I genuinely do not think it's going to happen - there have been no hints at all that he has even the slightest willingness to rethink any of his position, and numerous indicators that...

Honestly, I'd go further and say that I would be less surprised if Xykon was redeemed. Both are unlikely, but Redcloak has spent his entire adult life actively coming up with justifications to make himself more and more terrible, every one of them bound by the weight of all the terrible choices he made in the past. For him to experience serious self-doubt on his overarching mission at this point would require admitting, for example, that he murdered his own brother and betrayed his own people for nothing.

Xykon, by comparison, is just a bad person who enjoys doing terrible things. He's sufficiently chaotic that nothing really stops him from deciding to do something good and then finding he enjoys it and continuing to do so, while still fighting any attempt to restrict or restrain him. He's unlikely to do so (there's been no real hint of it), but it wouldn't require a total betrayal of everything he believed and stood for the way a change of course for Redcloak would.

The only thing that I really think could make Redcloak change direction at this point is a direct order from the Dark One, which isn't going to happen for narrative reasons (the Dark One is barely a character, so the plot isn't going to hinge on his actions.)

Like, yeah, Redcloak has self-justifications for what he does, but that makes him less likely to change course.

Hard disagree. Xykon is a sociopathic mass murderer who acts for entirely petty, self-serving reasons. There's simply no path from that to redemption: he has nothing he cares about except causing pain and harm for the lulz, and thus there's nothing to "tempt" him towards redemption.

Meanwhile Redcloak is also a mass-murderer, but he acts for arguably noble reasons. He wants to improve the standing of a disadvantaged society (do NOT @ me with your "goblinoids aren't worse off" conspiracy theories :smallyuk::smalltongue:). So if there's a way to use that desire, say by somehow giving him an even better deal if he switches sides, then that would be an effective temptation towards good. The pathway is there, even if whether he'll take it is still unclear.

He has very clearly been conflicted about it multiple times and the comic has spent a lot of time prodding at his motivations. I can understand thinking he's unlikely to be redeemed because of his whole sunk-cost thing. But I can't understand thinking it's impossible (which is what you're saying when you say Xykon is more likely, because Xykon is never in a billion years going to even think about it).


Disagreeing with some of his writing choices doesn't mean I think he's a bad writer overall. I think he regrets how much of an evil character he turned Belkar into after the first book, and tries to redeem him to justify why Roy tolerate him on his team.

You're entitled to your opinions. To me, Belkar is one of the few characters in fiction whose redemption I have actually believed - and he hasn't even been redeemed yet!

It's funny that your complaint is that he hasn't had enough time to have a redemption arc, because the comic has definitely taken its sweet time on slowly building his character growth for over half the story's run at this point. Including cleverly starting with him faking character growth, and then starting to tip over into caring without even really meaning to!

[Metastachydium]

Then I demand a redemption for Xykon.

Roy: "We can end this now. It's not too late, Xykon!"

You do realize that by "mileage" I meant buildup and narrative weight given to the epiphanies I listed earlier? What's happening to Belkar is a logical conclusion to everything that happened to him since he received the Mark of Justice; Durkon's self-discovery results from a fresh overview of his entire freaking life, with the relevant bits all shown to us; Elan's family issues are something we are gaining an ever-increasing insight into, starting in DCF, of all places… If you think how their outlooks change are tantamount to Xykon suddenly deciding he was a Good guy all along and everyone being fine with it, very simply put, you haven't been paying attention to the story you're complaining about.

[gbaji]

As to Recloak's "redemption", are we talking about an actual "alignment changing" redemption? Or just a "posltion/action" change? Because unless the story takes some sort of radical change of direction/outcome for its resolution (which, you know, is entirely possible), some degree of at least cooperation on Redcloak's part is pretty much required. If we assume that the whole "purple quiddity" bit is relevant to the rifts/snarl portion of the story, he's going to have to be involved in that (not likely going to just pull in some other high level TDO priest instead).

This may not require any form of redemption on his part, depending on how we define redemption in the first place. Heck. Redcloak has already shown an amazing ability to accept and deal with things he doesn't like in pursuit of "The Plan". It seems to me that this same dogged determination could also be what motivates him to set aside differences (including alignment differences, cause it's not like he didn't already do that with Xykon on the law/chaos axis) and work with the Order if a "new path" comes along that he actually views as working better to achieve his goals.

It's just that, as we understand the rifts situation, Redcloak appears to be utterly necessary to any outcome that isn't either "world destroyed" or "world still in the same peril and cycle of destruction that the last zillion worlds were". And I doubt either of those are going to be where this story ends.

[Tubercular Ox]

Well. None of it is necessary. Nothing in writing is necessary, because it all depends on the story you want to tell and the medium you want to use.

Sure! I'm happy to change my vocabulary on this, and I respect the problem of where one thing starts and the other ends. Let's start with a thesis statement and you tell me what you think of it: "There are some things Rich is never going to do as part of an effort to improve the story." Like my first example, characterization. Rich is never going to on-purpose have a character say things that character shouldn't know. He might do it by accident, but let's not dwell on that.

But given that a character is not going to go OOC on purpose, Rich still has a lot of choices on how that character behaves, and I can see why saying "characterization" sometimes means choices and it really mucks with my attempt to have a choice/necessary distinction. So I admit this is a distinction that up to this point has been mostly inside my head and therefore not well defined. Maybe I should pass on it, maybe it could be saved.


I have a sneaking suspicion (please correct me if I'm wrong) that the distinction you're actually getting at is "plot-driven" versus "character-driven" scenes.

One word off! I altered your quote, please forgive me. I think every scene has a plot-driven point of view and a character-driven point of view. In theory the character driven point of view exists because Rich plotted the characters that way, but it's tedious to constantly refer to Rich's decisions when discussing the character driven point of view, so we say, "Belkar feels this way" instead of "Rich wrote Belkar to feel this way" when talking in the character driven point of view. This makes the two points of view sound very different when you listen for them.


If that's the case, then what you're saying makes more sense to me: you're seeing the scenes that push the plot forward as more tactical, nuts-and-bolts, explain-what's-physically-happening scenes, and the things in-between as being "fluff" that doesn't actually affect the plot but simply fleshes out the characters and the world.

Well, like I just said, I see both happening at the same time. Belkar is definitely having feelings during the soup scene, and I think Rich is definitely advancing the plot in some way by having the soup scene. If Belkar's feelings in the soup scene are a key part of Rich's plan for Belkar, but the soup scene did not advance Rich's plan for the plot, then Belkar would instead have those feelings in a different scene that advanced the plot.

This isn't a universal guide to authors (Martin), I just have the very strong impression that Rich is a condensed writer who prefers to do things this way.

There is no fluff. For my vacation I was able to participate in nearly every thread the forum had, and a lot of them were character driven. I was there, I enjoyed it. I'm just not as good as half the people here at contributing to something character driven, and I don't see a lot of plot driven takes of the kind that I like to indulge in. So people get to see me post stuff like this instead of character driven stuff.


And maybe you're saying there's too much of that second part, because you feel like the story is dragging?

Be more specific? I don't feel like the story is dragging, and if I gave that impression I owe the thread an apology and am willing to do the full confess and repent thing. Although I will probably wheedle a little.


You could just as easily phrase the above quote as "Now that Belkar has a better prison sentence to look forward to, it might be interesting to see if that makes his (hypothetical) future sacrifice harder or more meaningful."

I will work on this. I don't feel like this says what I want it to say, but I've heard your objection. Give me a few tries.


In fairness, we talk a lot about Rich's intentions on this forum, I recognize that.

I totally get not liking something someone is doing, even though technically it's something you've done in the past, because gosh darn it there's a distinction. So we'll figure it out.

[Ionathus]

(not likely going to just pull in some other high level TDO priest instead).

Believe it or not, this is an actual suggestion that's been made more than once on the forum.

The idea goes that Redcloak will overcommit to The Plan and his sunk-cost fallacy, and then die as a result and be replaced by Jirix, who rapidly levels up to be able to cast Level 9 spells and then he agrees to seal the gates. This theory has mostly been floated by forum posters who think Redcloak casting Implosion on Durkon the first time they debated was meant to signal a permanent rejection of that plot thread, and not just be the opening volley that puts a bug in Redcloak's ear for a true tipping point later in the book.


Sure! I'm happy to change my vocabulary on this, and I respect the problem of where one thing starts and the other ends. Let's start with a thesis statement and you tell me what you think of it: "There are some things Rich is never going to do as part of an effort to improve the story." Like my first example, characterization. Rich is never going to on-purpose have a character say things that character shouldn't know. He might do it by accident, but let's not dwell on that.

Thanks for clarifying. Unfortunately I'm still not 100% sure of what you're saying: your thesis statement seems kind of tautological or redundant as is and I'm not sure how to parse it: can you please restate it or give an example of what you're talking about?


One word off! I altered your quote, please forgive me. I think every scene has a plot-driven point of view and a character-driven point of view. In theory the character driven point of view exists because Rich plotted the characters that way, but it's tedious to constantly refer to Rich's decisions when discussing the character driven point of view, so we say, "Belkar feels this way" instead of "Rich wrote Belkar to feel this way" when talking in the character driven point of view. This makes the two points of view sound very different when you listen for them.

Well, like I just said, I see both happening at the same time. Belkar is definitely having feelings during the soup scene, and I think Rich is definitely advancing the plot in some way by having the soup scene. If Belkar's feelings in the soup scene are a key part of Rich's plan for Belkar, but the soup scene did not advance Rich's plan for the plot, then Belkar would instead have those feelings in a different scene that advanced the plot.

I basically agree on all of this. I like how you point out that scenes can be both at the same time and don't need to be either-or.


Be more specific? I don't feel like the story is dragging, and if I gave that impression I owe the thread an apology and am willing to do the full confess and repent thing. Although I will probably wheedle a little.

There's no need to apologize, even if you did feel like the story was dragging! This is a discussion forum, people are certainly allowed to disagree or have misunderstandings :smalltongue:

[Tubercular Ox]

Thanks for clarifying. Unfortunately I'm still not 100% sure of what you're saying: your thesis statement seems kind of tautological or redundant as is and I'm not sure how to parse it: can you please restate it or give an example of what you're talking about?

This made me introspect, and I’m just going to share the introspection.

I was in a writing circle for years, and critical to criticism is connecting with the author’s intent. Does this character come off as manic depressive because the author forgot to decide a basic personality for them? That’s a flaw and it needs to be fixed. But what if this character comes off as manic depressive because it’s going to be revealed in three chapters that they’re off their meds and need medical attention soonish? Hey, brilliant writing, but maybe have another character notice their behavior, whether they can explain it or not, so the audience knows you’re doing it on purpose.

I can’t read anything anymore without imagining myself on a couch with a double-spaced printout on the cheapest possible paper, penciling in my thoughts. But even if I find something that I wouldn’t do myself, the first question is, “Was this on purpose?”

Since at least the fourth book, the answer for Rich has always been, “Yes.” This goes for both things I would do myself and things I wouldn’t do myself, which contributes strongly to my impression that Rich is a condensed author who is never far from either a set up or a payoff.

Assuming Rich is doing it on purpose has had a 100% success rate for so long that I now put it on the top of my list of assumptions and try to lever it into clues about the plot that might not exist otherwise.

It’s paradoxical that my distress over his writing should imply that he is about to do something very awesome, but that’s empiricism for you.

So, Mimi. With all that boilerplate, sure, I’ll admit that I would not have put Mimi in the story. She is expensive to maintain when the budget for maintaining characters is already stretched. But that means she will play a role in the story that justifies the expense, so me playing up the expense is me predicting how useful she’s going to end up being. It also means Rich is not going to cheap out on that expense. Mimi is going to get panel time, characterization, be remembered in establishing shots, etc, because that is how you do it right, and right is what Rich does.

Or, to use the words I used previously, it is a choice to introduce Mimi as a character and I would never suggest that it’s frivolous. It is necessary for Rich to maintain Mimi as a character and I would never suggest he’s going to skimp on it. And I’m just saying that to line up with what I’ve said previously, choice and necessary are still words we’re looking to replace.

As for the soup scene, yeah, I’m just dense sometimes and need a helping hand. Another idea I recently had for it is that the Quinton said it would take two days to explore all the tunnels, and it would be a weird two days without any meals. This implies there’s going to be a nighty-night scene, or that something awful happens before the nighty-night scene materializes. This changes a lot of my opinions on what checkpoints we need to have in the future of the story.

[gbaji]

So, Mimi. With all that boilerplate, sure, I’ll admit that I would not have put Mimi in the story. She is expensive to maintain when the budget for maintaining characters is already stretched. But that means she will play a role in the story that justifies the expense, so me playing up the expense is me predicting how useful she’s going to end up being. It also means Rich is not going to cheap out on that expense. Mimi is going to get panel time, characterization, be remembered in establishing shots, etc, because that is how you do it right, and right is what Rich does.

Well. I think it's non-conicidental (and already shown/suggested previously), that a Mimics shapeshift and adhesive abilties are all (Ex), rather than (Su), and thus work inside an AMF. Which dovetails nicely into the conversation (uh... in another thread somewhere?) about why Rich bothered to introduce the peas (which have abilities which also work in an AMF) instead of using some other warning method. I suspect that at least some part of that final fight will involve clever use Sunny's AMF, and clever use of "special" abilities within that field, necessitating some clarification that yeah "some things do work in an AMF".

Can't predict the specifics, but that's also presumably why Mimi is here. She has a (perhaps small) role to play.


As for the soup scene, yeah, I’m just dense sometimes and need a helping hand. Another idea I recently had for it is that the Quinton said it would take two days to explore all the tunnels, and it would be a weird two days without any meals. This implies there’s going to be a nighty-night scene, or that something awful happens before the nighty-night scene materializes. This changes a lot of my opinions on what checkpoints we need to have in the future of the story.

Because a story is not just a series of plot waypoints and direct/shortest path between them. I mean, it *can* be that, but then the story is just about "what" happened, and not much at all about "who" did the "what". Spending time getting to know the characters and then having scenes like this that either reinforce those characters or show how they have changed over time can be a useful technique in story telling. It allows the audience to relate more to the characters.

And sure, this is a fantasy adventure, but there are stories with plots that have nothing at all to do with action sequences or resolutions, but are entirely about character development. In those stories, what little action occurs is incidental to what the characters are thinking/feeling and how those things change over time. Heck. Half the books you get assigned to read in school probably worked like this. Read any Hemingway book and then try to say it was about whatever action/events occurred, and you'll likely get an F grade as a result.

[KorvinStarmast]

Can't predict the specifics, but that's also presumably why Mimi is here. She has a (perhaps small) role to play. At the moment, she appears to be a support character. (Pillows are supportive!) :smallsmile:

Read any Hemingway book and then try to say it was about whatever action/events occurred, and you'll likely get an F grade as a result. Indeed, but at least one will not have to read a phone book length book to get enough material to write that paper. :smallsmile:

[Precure]

In perfect seriousness, are you confident Redcloak won't be redeemed? He's an NPC.

I disagree with your reading of both Redcloak and Xykon, but mainly I want to know if Precure is genuinely confident that, in the comic, only PCs (Vaarsuvius and Belkar) will achieve redemption. "This is protagonist-centered morality" is a legitimate complaint; "This is redeeming a character I hate, after not redeeming a character I liked" is not.

I don't expect Redcloak to change anyway from his current personality of "lawful evil goblin cru*ader." He may betray Xykon or decide to ally with Durkon, but that wouldn't changed who he is right now.


You do realize that by "mileage" I meant buildup and narrative weight given to the epiphanies I listed earlier? What's happening to Belkar is a logical conclusion to everything that happened to him since he received the Mark of Justice; Durkon's self-discovery results from a fresh overview of his entire freaking life, with the relevant bits all shown to us; Elan's family issues are something we are gaining an ever-increasing insight into, starting in DCF, of all places… If you think how their outlooks change are tantamount to Xykon suddenly deciding he was a Good guy all along and everyone being fine with it, very simply put, you haven't been paying attention to the story you're complaining about.

Highlighted part is exactly my problem with Belkar's redemption. You compared it to V and Belkar's character developments, which is not comparable, in both scale and impact, in my opinion.

[brian 333]

I don't expect Redcloak to change anyway from his current personality of "lawful evil goblin cru*ader." He may betray Xykon or decide to ally with Durkon, but that wouldn't changed who he is right now.



Highlighted part is exactly my problem with Belkar's redemption. You compared it to V and Belkar's character developments, which is not comparable, in both scale and impact, in my opinion.

We have not seen how this will be treated yet. It appears that a possible default assumption is that a) Belkar will in fact achieve some degree of redemption, and b) it will be handled in an easy, unsatisfying manner.

I go with the assumption that Belkar is developing from a 'fake it 'till you make it," mindset toward something better. We see moments where he, upon reflection, does realize he didn't act like a jerk when he could have at no cost to himself. We see he is changing. He is a far cry from climbing Mt.Celestia.

And I expect that any redemption Belkar gets, if he gets any at all, will be written well and justified by his actions and growth, so that, at its conclusion I will say, "That was fair. That made sense."

Xykon has never apologized for anything. That alone sets Belkar a level above Xykon in the big picture.

[Tubercular Ox]

Well. I think it's non-conicidental (and already shown/suggested previously), that a Mimics shapeshift and adhesive abilties are all (Ex), rather than (Su), and thus work inside an AMF.

I like this and am being persuaded. If this pans out, it resolves doubts I had about both the peas and Mimi. But I'm still holding out hope for some other AMF to be central to the problem.

Paranoia made me check: AMF could still be one of Xykon's spells, if all you look at is the spell list O-Chul made. But that doesn't seem like a great option, either. It's possible Serini is keeping a Final Dungeon AMF under her hat, or an adventure to the world beyond the gate could lead to an AMF. Or it's a plan with Sunny's eye.


Because a story is not just a series of plot waypoints and direct/shortest path between them.

Many of Rich's author's notes refer to the changes he made to the story in order to get the plot to an appointed destination. For example, he invented the Sapphire Guard's oath and linked Eugene's appearances to the family sword in order to get the party inside Azure City before they learned Xykon was "alive" and there was a bigger plot.

I don't know if that makes the story a series of plot waypoints or not, but I'm not asking for anything more than what's consistent with Rich's author's notes.

The behavior makes sense to me because I was encouraged to figure out the last scene first, then make all the other scenes point towards the last scene. This was recommended as a way to avoid bloat and unsatisfying scenes. It's a recursive process. I suspect some authors don't do this (Martin), but the evidence seems to be that Rich does. Consider how long he's said he's had planned the MitD's reveal.

[Psyren]

I wanted to write a longer response to OP, but I haven't had time. That said:


I think that that as we approach the end of the comic, the strips are being written more with an eye towards what they'll read like in the final book than with an eye towards the drip-drip-drip of online releases. After all, the online releases will end shortly and it'll be the book that lasts.

In that context, these strips are probably our last "calm before the storm" time with these characters, so they have to serve the purpose of any last character development that isn't, like, capstone character stuff that will only happen in a big dramatic scene or the conclusion.

And it's also the last chance to flesh out supporting characters who haven't had as much screen time (notably, a lot of strips have focused on the paladins, Serini, and Sunny.)

I did want to emphasize this, because it's key to understanding any questions or concerns about pacing. I'll be more definite than this post and say the strip has, for a long time now, been written with more concern as to what the final product will look like and how it will read in book form, than as periodically released as a webcomic. I know this because Rich has said precisely this.

These sum up my take; it'll read a lot better in the final, offline product than it does when we're waiting with bated breath for each page, and prioritizing that final version over shorter-term gratification is the right call.

Regarding Belkar - I view his growth as a master class in character redemption, similar to luminaries such as Katsuki Bakugo from MHA, Jaime Lannister from ASoIaF, Cecil from Final Fantasy 4 etc. I don't know that it'll be enough to save him from Downstairs, but he's a lot closer to having a genuine shot at it than I would have believed prior to the Sandsedge arc. (I do think he has a lot more to do and not much time to do it, such as tracking down Solt's family to make amends to them, however.)

[brian 333]

I like this and am being persuaded. If this pans out, it resolves doubts I had about both the peas and Mimi. But I'm still holding out hope for some other AMF to be central to the problem.

Paranoia made me check: AMF could still be one of Xykon's spells, if all you look at is the spell list O-Chul made. But that doesn't seem like a great option, either. It's possible Serini is keeping a Final Dungeon AMF under her hat, or an adventure to the world beyond the gate could lead to an AMF. Or it's a plan with Sunny's eye.

I think far too much thought is going into the AMF reference.

Serinni lives with an AMF in the shape of Sunny. She deals with its effects on a daily basis. She has had plenty of opportunities to learn how it works, what it does not do, and how to exploit it.

And it's Sunny, so naturally she has a lot of practice with accidental exposure.

In short, Serini automatically assumes AMF interference in the same way that folks in New Orleans automatically assume it's hot. Because, you know, experience.

[KorvinStarmast]

I like this and am being persuaded. If this pans out,
All we are saying, is give pease a chance. (British spelling)
If you put them in a pan, or if Belkar does, it kills them. :smalleek:

[137beth]

In fact I’ll stop being shy and say I think it’s going to be the Monster in the Dark. With or without being revealed, with or without following orders, I think Xykon is going to order it to tank for Team Evil, and if nothing else, Haley will remember it’s a child, trigger fireworks. I think it’s going to be the last and/or greatest kick the dog for Xykon. Nothing in particular has to happen after that.

Just to show off my level of paranoia, and my respect for Rich’s ability to flesh out details, I think this is the origin story for Kudzu, and the rest of Kudzu’s story is just what Kudzu needs to be a real part of the plot.

I don't believe that Kudzu was created to set up something involving the MitD, and the reason I don't believe you is the Utterly Dwarfed commentary.

We've heard The Giant repeatedly state that he didn't decide on what the MitD was until about strip 100. Even if the MitD ends up being a "child in danger" during the climax, I doubt that was the plan since the beginning.

On the other hand, Utterly Dwarfed gives us some hints about how long Kudzu has been planned for.

At the start of the Round 6 Commentary, The Giant starts out that, from the first time he started to come up with an overall plot for the story, he planned to have Volume Six focus on Durkon.

In the Round 8 Commentary, The Giant says he planned Hilgya coming back with a baby for a long time, and that the reason he killed Roy in WaXP was to give the Order a reason to wait around for nine months so that Hilgya could have her baby. He also says that Hilgya's appearance is a reminder to Durkon of "the worst thing [Durkon]'s ever done."

Putting those together, I suspect that The Giant had planned that Kudzu would show up for almost as long as there has been a plan for the comic at all, and that Kudzu's place in the comic was always intended to be tied to Durkon's story.

So I highly doubt The Giant created Kudzu just to set up something for the MitD.

[KorvinStarmast]

We've heard The Giant repeatedly state that he didn't decide on what the MitD was until about strip 100. Even if the MitD ends up being a "child in danger" during the climax, I doubt that was the plan since the beginning.

On the other hand, Utterly Dwarfed gives us some hints about how long Kudzu has been planned for.

At the start of the Round 6 Commentary, The Giant starts out that, from the first time he started to come up with an overall plot for the story, he planned to have Volume Six focus on Durkon.

In the Round 8 Commentary, The Giant says he planned Hilgya coming back with a baby for a long time, and that the reason he killed Roy in WaXP was to give the Order a reason to wait around for nine months so that Hilgya could have her baby. He also says that Hilgya's appearance is a reminder to Durkon of "the worst thing [Durkon]'s ever done."

Putting those together, I suspect that The Giant had planned that Kudzu would show up for almost as long as there has been a plan for the comic at all, and that Kudzu's place in the comic was always intended to be tied to Durkon's story.

So I highly doubt The Giant created Kudzu just to set up something for the MitD. Thanks for the commentary summary, makes sense.

[Precure]

That's a pretty shocking information considering how little plot importance Kudzu had in the story to justify such a big event.

[Tubercular Ox]

Just to show off my level of paranoia, and my respect for Rich’s ability to flesh out details, I think this is the origin story for Kudzu, and the rest of Kudzu’s story is just what Kudzu needs to be a real part of the plot.


I don't believe that Kudzu was created to set up something involving the MitD, and the reason I don't believe you is the Utterly Dwarfed commentary.


The forum has been asking me to be more appreciative of the multiple uses for any given plot feature, and not promote any one to the top of the heap willy nilly, so I look back on my words and regret. If I've upset you, I apologize.

Let's throw out my statement and back up to the questions I was asking before my paranoia kicked in. I was taught that a great way to write a tight story is to write the last scene first, then design previous scenes so that they all point to the last scene. The process is recursive, and you end up with a tree of scenes that all point forward a node towards the last scene. (This isn't how it was taught to me, that's the coder in me coming out.)

I feel like this must be how Rich does it, since, "Roy had to die so Kudzu could be born," is exactly the kind of future-to-past planning consistent with the practice. And Rich mentions this kind of planning in his author's notes a lot.

So the question is: Have we seen Kudzu's capstone scene yet? This is the scene closest to the last where Kudzu, or Kudzu's effect on the story, is necessary for the scene to have the right impact. In theory, when designing this scene would be when Rich first came up with the idea for Kudzu, then chronologically previous scenes were designed to make sure that Kudzu was an organic and interesting part of the story. For example, Rich decided he needed Kudzu, then had to add nine months to the story to make sure Kudzu was organic.

This is flawed because there's a "cut til it hurts" phase that combines nodes, meaning one scene now points to multiple future scenes, and collapses plot features, meaning maybe the scene for which Rich first conceived of Kudzu is no longer the capstone for Kudzu because Rich imported Kudzu into a different plot line so he could cut something less interesting.

Obviously things can be done differently, but for me it's a little like the class and level geekery thread. It doesn't entirely matter if Rich designed something to fit the rules, if a rule fits we write it down and give everything an asterisk.

EDIT: And by "closest to the last" I mean in the tree structure used to outline the story. The MitD's Escape scene is a lot closer to the last than the character arc that follows, because it gives O-Chul's plot significant information to Roy, and pushes forward V's character growth. The confrontation with Xykon will probably rely on one or both of those directly.

But the character arc is almost certainly pointing to a moment that's even closer to the last than the Escape scene.

[KorvinStarmast]

So the question is: Have we seen Kudzu's capstone scene yet? This is the scene closest to the last where Kudzu, or Kudzu's effect on the story, is necessary for the scene to have the right impact. In theory, when designing this scene would be when Rich first came up with the idea for Kudzu, then chronologically previous scenes were designed to make sure that Kudzu was an organic and interesting part of the story. For example, Rich decided he needed Kudzu, then had to add nine months to the story to make sure Kudzu was organic.

This is flawed because there's a "cut til it hurts" phase that combines nodes, meaning one scene now points to multiple future scenes, and collapses plot features, meaning maybe the scene for which Rich first conceived of Kudzu is no longer the capstone for Kudzu because Rich imported Kudzu into a different plot line so he could cut something less interesting.

Obviously things can be done differently, but for me it's a little like the class and level geekery thread. It doesn't entirely matter if Rich designed something to fit the rules, if a rule fits we write it down and give everything an asterisk.

EDIT: And by "closest to the last" I mean in the tree structure used to outline the story. The MitD's Escape scene is a lot closer to the last than the character arc that follows, because it gives O-Chul's plot significant information to Roy, and pushes forward V's character growth. The confrontation with Xykon will probably rely on one or both of those directly.

But the character arc is almost certainly pointing to a moment that's even closer to the last than the Escape scene. I am going to make a guess here.
1. Kudzu's capstone scenes have already been presented: first, in 1181 where Durkon gets to hold/interact with him in the last panel, and in 1185 where Sidgi and Hilgya are doing their version of bonding (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1185.html).
2. Kudzu has fulfilled his purpose in the story of the order of the stick in a variety of ways:
a. Hilgya is strong enough to protect him, and so in her own way is Sidgi, so Durkon can move out with the order and pursue the Order's goals.
b. Durkon has a new goal ahead of him for "after the mission is finished" beyond simply returning home (which he has already done)
c. Hilgya's sub-arc, such as it is, seems to be wrapped up.
d. Durkon's character development expanded in a very satisfying way.

Am I sure that I am right? No, but since the Order's aims and how they achieve them is the focus of this story, I think my guess is a solid one.

[gbaji]

Let's throw out my statement and back up to the questions I was asking before my paranoia kicked in. I was taught that a great way to write a tight story is to write the last scene first, then design previous scenes so that they all point to the last scene. The process is recursive, and you end up with a tree of scenes that all point forward a node towards the last scene. (This isn't how it was taught to me, that's the coder in me coming out.)

I feel like this must be how Rich does it, since, "Roy had to die so Kudzu could be born," is exactly the kind of future-to-past planning consistent with the practice. And Rich mentions this kind of planning in his author's notes a lot.

Except that Rich is not writing a tight story. Or at least, not a single tight story. He's writing a number of interwoven stories, relating to the Order of the Stick. One of those stories is: We have to kill Xykon. Another is: We have to deal with the gates and the threat that the world will be destroyed. Others deal with Roys family and history, and Haley's family, and Elan's family, and Durkon's family, and V's family, and Belkar's... well... his past and future and development.

Not all of those interwoven elments must all point to or lead to a single "final scene". They are components that may exist completely off to the side, and can be "complete" all by themselves. I think this is the trap some fall into when they just assume that Targuin must come back and be relevant to the resolution of the Gates. Or Kudzu must have some deeper signifigance and impact. Or that other things we've run into along the way must come back in some relevant and significant way. That's just not necessary. They have had their part in the story. And their part is to show us that this is a deep and rich world where lots of things are happening. And heck, they also show us *why* our heroes maybe care about the world and would want to save it in the first place.

In a truely tight story, the linear guild wouldn't exist. Tarquin would not exist. The entire DStP book would not have been written (nor would UD for that matter). We would just have a series of stories with the Order traveling to the gates, running into TE, having a conflict, gate destroyed, and then we move on to the next. If you were really trimming down just what was necessary to arrive at a final scene where Xykon is killed and the last gate saved, about 80% of the story Rich has written would simply not exist. Virtually nothing they've done since the end of the Azurite war (other than the Girard's pyramid, and probably the Godsmoot) is technically "necessary" to reach that final end point. And even the Pyramid would or should not have had the new-LG after them. You'd re-write it to just have them explore the Pyramid, find the gate, realize TE was showing up, and destroy the gate to stop them. No Tarquin. No Malak. No vamping of anyone. No big fight to resolve family issues. Just destroy the gate and move on (or maybe try to defeat TE, fail, and then destroy the gate).

This might run similarly to how many RPG adventures are run, but would make for a pretty weak story. Which is why you add in those other elements. But it's a mistake to assume that those elements are there to lead us to the end of the story. They are there to fill out the story along the way. It's there to tell us who these characters are, and why we should care about whether they succeed or fail. Otherwise, it's just a purely mechanical series of actions leading to a resolution. Trust me. I've read stories written like that. They pretty much universally suck.

[Tubercular Ox]

That's a pretty shocking information considering how little plot importance Kudzu had in the story to justify such a big event.

I'm going to take a stab at defending this one. Here is an imaginary train of thought that an imaginary author similar to Rich could have:

I need a thing for this scene >
If Durkon had a kid, it would solve it for me. How do I get him a kid? >
Hilgya! >
I need nine months for this to work >
I could do a time skip >
I could kill Roy to justify the time skip! >
I could write an entire book about how the party fares without Roy!!!1

So this imaginary author could easily say that DStP came about because of Kudzu, but the secret ingredient is that this imaginary author was stoked to write DStP as soon as he had the idea.

There are any number of ways that this could've played out. As much as I like my tree structure, I'm shy about assigning an order to the thoughts I imagine an author having.

Now, segue...


Except that Rich is not writing a tight story.

We are using different definitions of tight. If I'm allowed to use my definition, then your concerns seem to be about cutting, not plotting. I think the missing context for cutting is that authors generally have lots of ideas and want to write all of them, but authors who do that fail. Successful authors write with their best ideas, not their better ideas. If no advice can restrain an author from writing a scene, then it's probably a good one. That's why the advice is, "Cut til it hurts." You're trying to get rid of your better ideas so that all that are left are your best ideas.

So the cutting is done. What is left are Rich's best ideas, not the ideas that create the shortest possible plot. If he had more best ideas before the deadline, the story would be longer, but an author's supply of best ideas is finite.

The flaw is that thinking tends to happen all at once, so the ideas you cut are often connected to a plot in your head that now has holes in it, and you have to reconnect the remaining ideas in a way that closes all the plot holes. Doing this well is tight plotting.


In a truely tight story, the linear guild wouldn't exist.

If tight means the shortest possible plot, maybe. I wouldn't know, I don't use that definition of tight. To me the Linear Guild is tightly plotted in its first appearance:

Rich mentions in his notes that he really wanted to do some foreshadowing with Eugene, but his foreshadowing points to the climax of a story where the main antagonists hadn't even been introduced yet. That smells like two ideas being joined together to me.

At one point Nale tells us he was hired by Xykon, which is connected to Xykon's previous use of mercenaries. Then, after the storyline is over, we learn that Xykon eavesdropping on Nale gives him the info he needs (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0097.html) to open the gate. So the Linear Guild plot points to the final battle, and therefore everything in it points to a thing that points to the final battle. And Rich wrote all of it because it was entertaining, he just pointed it at the final battle to keep the plotting tight.

This is completely ignoring all the things that happen inside the subplot itself. Rich is a tight writer and there are a lot of connections in any given strip.


I am going to make a guess here.
1. Kudzu's capstone scenes have already been presented: first, in 1181 where Durkon gets to hold/interact with him in the last panel, and in 1185 where Sidgi and Hilgya are doing their version of bonding (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1185.html).

2. Kudzu has fulfilled his purpose in the story of the order of the stick in a variety of ways:
a. Hilgya is strong enough to protect him, and so in her own way is Sidgi, so Durkon can move out with the order and pursue the Order's goals.
b. Durkon has a new goal ahead of him for "after the mission is finished" beyond simply returning home (which he has already done)
c. Hilgya's sub-arc, such as it is, seems to be wrapped up.
d. Durkon's character development expanded in a very satisfying way.


I like both of your choices. But to me they both point forward, in opposite ways. 1181 is completed character development, which is a set-up, and the payoff is a future scene where the difference in character matters. This is 2b in your list. The difference can be a murmur that sticks with him the rest of the plot, that's fine. That's still pointing forward.

I think 1185 is linked to 2a. Had I written that scene, it would be a cue to the audience that they can (for now) stop worrying about Hilgya, Sigdi, and Kudzu in favor of looking forward to Durkon's next adventure.

So 2b puts Durkon on the hook for future appearances, and 2a takes Durkon off the hook for past appearances. Both are needed to enter the climax or else the audience complains about either lack of motivation or unfinished business. There's actually a word for this single moment before the climax when everything is together and I can't quite pull it out of my head.

The only reason I posited a singular, dramatic moment that Kudzu is pointing towards, rather than accepting a murmuring pulse before the denouement, is because everyone else was pointed generally the same way and might be converging. Roy, Haley, and Serini have the strongest feeling of convergence, then Belkar, then V, then Durkon, finally Elan.

O-Chul is out to the side a little. If I'm right about the scene at all, and if I'm right about it involving the Monster in the Dark, then O-Chul has instant rapport without passing through the child thing. Lien, Minrah, and Mimi don't have anything I've noticed up to this point.

But if I'm allowed to think about it a few weeks before it comes up again, then it could be no scene, or it could be more than one scene, with the characters partitioned any which way.

Am I sure that I am right? No, but I'm looking forward to where all these references lead.

[Ionathus]

That's a pretty shocking information considering how little plot importance Kudzu had in the story to justify such a big event.

Really? I'd believe it in a heartbeat. Every plot I've ever written (both prose fiction and tabletop DMing) has taken turns like this for seemingly innocuous reasons.

Something strikes your fancy, a fun little moment you could set up far down the line, and then as you're moving some pieces around to make that feasible, you discover other interesting stories you're excited to tell along the way. I think to myself "it would be fun to have a villain do XYZ" and then, in the process of setting some of that up, I've suddenly told a much more interesting story just by following the logical conclusions of that initial idea, and that original villain has even maybe faded into the background.

The creative process is like that. I can absolutely see Rich thinking "okay, if Hilgya came back with Durkon's kid, that would be interesting. So how do I delay the party's progress for 10ish months? Somebody could die. It'd have to be Roy, because he's the only one motivated and charismatic enough to keep the party moving. Oooh, if Roy dies, then Haley becomes the leader due to the 2nd-in-command position she took for selfish reasons, would she struggle with that leadership? Also, V could get caught up in their own power-hungry foolishness without anyone to snap them back to reality. Maybe that YBD's parent comes looking for revenge? Oh, oh, and Belkar could be let off the leash and experience the consequences of his actions, and..."

"...And now Belkar has this "magical trigger" that punishes him for murder, having to work around that will be entertaining...
...later when he triggers it because Roy isn't around to stop him, he experiences the consequences of his actions...
...oh! Great idea! He has to fake character growth! That'd be really interesting to write!"..."

Writing is like that. You can have a single "what if?" idea and you start spinning off all these consequences that become very appealing, and suddenly that first idea is still interesting, but it's also key to the logistics that get you to the really interesting bits you thought of. Readers might look at that inciting incident and they might say it's "important" or "unimportant" but that's not how it feels on the other side of the pen/typewriter/word processor, at least for me.

Writing is seldom, if ever, about the logistics of the plot. Narratively speaking, 9 months of waiting around is the same as 2 weeks of waiting around or 10 years of waiting around. It's all about the story that you're telling within that space, whether it's compelling, and whether it communicates the ideas you care about. So "Kudzu wasn't important to the story" is the wrong way to look at it. Kudzu's conception and birth was at least partially responsible for the direction the plot took, yes, but so was everything else. Every plot development, minor or major, contributes to the overall story. Ev'ry single one of them counts. All tha way ta tha end.


EDIT: Just noticed that Tubercular Ox said exactly the same thing, a lot more concisely, in the post above mine. Jinx I guess :smallcool:

[KorvinStarmast]

Writing is seldom, if ever, about the logistics of the plot. Narratively speaking, 9 months of waiting around is the same as 2 weeks of waiting around or 10 years of waiting around. It's all about the story that you're telling within that space, whether it's compelling, and whether it communicates the ideas you care about. So "Kudzu wasn't important to the story" is the wrong way to look at it. Kudzu's conception and birth was at least partially responsible for the direction the plot took, yes, but so was everything else. Every plot development, minor or major, contributes to the overall story. Ev'ry single one of them counts. All tha way ta tha end.
Yes, the process itself has non linear outputs.

[Precure]

Well, that's at least explains why Haley and Celia had to lost on the road for 6 months, otherwise timeline wouldn't work.

[Tubercular Ox]

It’s unrequested content time! I said previously that there was a clear spot before the climax whose name I couldn’t remember, and in lieu of looking up the name like a sensible person, I thought I’d just give my best guess for where the spot is in each of the books.

I’m also going to be nominating a single page as “the” climax, even though the climax is a scene and not (always) a moment.

All of these are judgment calls. Feel free to suggest alternatives.

First book, I pick the strip where Xykon actually explodes (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0115.html) as the climax, and the clear point before it is this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0104.html) sequence (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0105.html), where they have a plan, they’re buffed, nothing is chasing them, and even the most troublesome member of the party is in sync with the leadership.

Second book, I pick the window scene (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0284.html) as climax because Elan appreciates it more. This is obviously a bias on my part and one should consider the verdict of the trial as well, which is probably in the same strip on purpose.

Also, I just noticed for the first time that the movie snacks intermission (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0301.html), comic 301, was published online between what would become the end of the second book and the beginning of the third, but since that separation now exists by you having to pick up a new book to keep reading, in the print version the movie snacks are sandwiched between 283 and 284, taking the place of a weekend cliffhanger that doesn’t exist in the print version. This is genius and I wonder if Rich planned it this way or just seized an opportunity.

For me the new location for the intermission helps to tie the two candidates for climax together rather than letting the verdict tie to the previous comic and the crashing window look like a new plot

Wordswordswords (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0282.html) is a kind of clear point in that it puts the drama of the trial in the background while also giving the audience its best chance to decide whether they think the party is guilty or not, but I think the clear point for the whole book is way back (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0250.html) here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html) when the party is united behind Roy against Miko. Sure it jump cuts to the party’s capture, and sure it switches to the Linear Guild subplot after, but that gives a sense of time so that it isn’t jarring when we rejoin the party already in prison. When Rich cuts out the entire rest of the journey to get to the climax faster, I think it’s a sign that he feels he’s cleared the board for it.

At first book three was hard. Off the top of my head I could guess that Roy’s death (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html) is the climax, but the clear point before that that I could remember was Haley convincing Roy (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html) of the shell game, and that’s flawed. There are a bunch of subplots in between it and Roys’ death, so it’s really only a clear point for Roy to attack Xykon.

On a re-read, it became obvious that the double-wide mirror strips (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0422.html) are the clear point for the whole book, meaning Rich does intend the entire battle as a single sprawling climax.

But it’s a long walk from Roy’s death to the end of the book, and I’d like to nominate Hinjo’s Junk making everything else look small (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0483.html) as a second climax after that. It told the audience that the climax was uncontainable, and that the chance for a ride that Haley was hoping for came and went.

And the clear point before that is when Hinjo admits defeat and the party plans its escape (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0467.html). Rich even kindly put a chapter break ahead of this in the print version.

The climax of book four is V’s fight with Xykon, but That One Page (for me) is the Escape scene (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html), since V was set up to fail when literally everyone told V not to fight Xykon, and the Escape scene rescues V from V’s mistake.

V’s apotheosis (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0635.html) is critical in that it is a straight line from here to the end of the book. Rich even says in the print version that he cut out an entire subplot to make V’s trip faster, one he prints as a bonus story in the book.

But after resolving V’s immediate dilemma, the first thing V does is try to clean up subplots, so I think the real clear point is when V says V is done with subplots (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html). V may have bad judgment on whether V is clear or not, but bad judgment is the theme of this climax and the flawed clear point is foreshadowing.

Book five is my favorite, just saying. I think the climax is Tarquin hitting the sand (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0936.html), and the clear point before that is when V reunites with the party (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0920.html)and they get a chance to clear their heads and make a plan before the end. This is marred by happening in the middle of a pitched battle, so I bet there’s a better point, but it didn't come out in a sprint scan and I'm not rereading it right now.

Rich admits the climax of book six comes early, and he overwrites denouement with victory lap for what follows, so two climaxes. Of course the climax for the book is Greg being staked (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1131.html), and the clear point before that is when Hilgya joins the party and it learns they have an information advantage (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1110.html) over Greg. Hilgya gets some last minute character development in after this, but it still feels like a better point than anything later. There is a planning montage after to help make up for it.

For the council scene, the climax is the table splitting (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1173.html), and the clear point is Durkon claiming the hammer (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1154.html), but I do want to point out the scene where Elan refers to Roy and Durkon as best boomerang buddies (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1160.html). In my opinion this is a little resolve-y for a scene in the climax, so deep down inside I wonder if this isn’t part of the clear point in some way. It’s actually the first scene I thought of when I thought of a clear point. One-way memory, I guess.

And finally, for the last book, Rich sets up* and pays off the potion seller joke (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1201.html) rather early. I feel like this is intended as the clear point for the entire saga, but I also feel like there will be at least one additional clear point within the book. I don’t think such a point has happened yet. The party is making plans and following through on them, but jokes like Belkar’s about the 4th plan of the day says to me that we’re not clear yet. We’ve just hit the Yellow Dungeon, which feels big, but Roy literally tumbled in upside down. Not really a stable moment.

*I can't find the set up because I can't search the text for it and I'm out of time to reread the latest strips.

This was fun for me. One thing I learned is that I really need to respect double strips more, there’s a high concentration of them in my links.

[woweedd]

It’s unrequested content time! I said previously that there was a clear spot before the climax whose name I couldn’t remember, and in lieu of looking up the name like a sensible person, I thought I’d just give my best guess for where the spot is in each of the books.

I’m also going to be nominating a single page as “the” climax, even though the climax is a scene and not (always) a moment.

All of these are judgment calls. Feel free to suggest alternatives.

First book, I pick the strip where Xykon actually explodes (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0115.html) as the climax, and the clear point before it is this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0104.html) sequence (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0105.html), where they have a plan, they’re buffed, nothing is chasing them, and even the most troublesome member of the party is in sync with the leadership.

Second book, I pick the window scene (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0284.html) as climax because Elan appreciates it more. This is obviously a bias on my part and one should consider the verdict of the trial as well, which is probably in the same strip on purpose.

Also, I just noticed for the first time that the movie snacks intermission (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0301.html), comic 301, was published online between what would become the end of the second book and the beginning of the third, but since that separation now exists by you having to pick up a new book to keep reading, in the print version the movie snacks are sandwiched between 283 and 284, taking the place of a weekend cliffhanger that doesn’t exist in the print version. This is genius and I wonder if Rich planned it this way or just seized an opportunity.

For me the new location for the intermission helps to tie the two candidates for climax together rather than letting the verdict tie to the previous comic and the crashing window look like a new plot

Wordswordswords (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0282.html) is a kind of clear point in that it puts the drama of the trial in the background while also giving the audience its best chance to decide whether they think the party is guilty or not, but I think the clear point for the whole book is way back (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0250.html) here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html) when the party is united behind Roy against Miko. Sure it jump cuts to the party’s capture, and sure it switches to the Linear Guild subplot after, but that gives a sense of time so that it isn’t jarring when we rejoin the party already in prison. When Rich cuts out the entire rest of the journey to get to the climax faster, I think it’s a sign that he feels he’s cleared the board for it.

At first book three was hard. Off the top of my head I could guess that Roy’s death (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html) is the climax, but the clear point before that that I could remember was Haley convincing Roy (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html) of the shell game, and that’s flawed. There are a bunch of subplots in between it and Roys’ death, so it’s really only a clear point for Roy to attack Xykon.

On a re-read, it became obvious that the double-wide mirror strips (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0422.html) are the clear point for the whole book, meaning Rich does intend the entire battle as a single sprawling climax.

But it’s a long walk from Roy’s death to the end of the book, and I’d like to nominate Hinjo’s Junk making everything else look small (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0483.html) as a second climax after that. It told the audience that the climax was uncontainable, and that the ride Haley was hoping for wasn’t coming.

And the clear point before that is when Hinjo admits defeat and the party plans its escape (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0467.html). Rich even kindly put a chapter break ahead of this in the print version.

The climax of book four is V’s fight with Xykon, but That One Page (for me) is the Escape scene (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html), since V was set up to fail when literally everyone told V not to fight Xykon, and the Escape scene rescues V from V’s mistake.

V’s apotheosis (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0635.html) is critical in that it is a straight line from here to the end of the book. Rich even says in the print version that he cut out an entire subplot to make V’s trip faster, one he prints as a bonus story in the book.

But after resolving V’s immediate dilemma, the first thing V does is try to clean up subplots, so I think the real clear point is when V says V is done with subplots (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html). V may have bad judgment on whether V is clear or not, but bad judgment is the theme of this climax and the flawed clear point is foreshadowing.

Book five is my favorite, just saying. I think the climax is Tarquin hitting the sand (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0936.html), and the clear point before that is when V reunites with the party (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0920.html)and they get a chance to clear their heads and make a plan before the end. This is marred by happening in the middle of a pitched battle, so I bet there’s a better point, but it didn't come out in a sprint scan and I'm not rereading it right now.

Rich admits the climax of book six comes early, and he overwrites denouement with victory lap for what follows, so two climaxes. Of course the climax for the book is Greg being staked (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1131.html), and the clear point before that is when Hilgya joins the party and it learns they have an information advantage (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1110.html) over Greg. Hilgya gets some last minute character development in after this, but it still feels like a better point than anything later. There is a planning montage after to help make up for it.

For the council scene, the climax is the table splitting (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1173.html), and the clear point is Durkon claiming the hammer (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1154.html), but I do want to point out the scene where Elan refers to Roy and Durkon as best boomerang buddies (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1160.html). In my opinion this is a little resolve-y for a scene in the climax, so deep down inside I wonder if this isn’t part of the clear point in some way. It’s actually the first scene I thought of when I thought of a clear point. One-way memory, I guess.

And finally, for the last book, Rich sets up* and pays off the potion seller joke (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1201.html) rather early. I feel like this is intended as the clear point for the entire saga, but I also feel like there will be at least one additional clear point within the book. I don’t think such a point has happened yet. The party is making plans and following through on them, but jokes like Belkar’s about the 4th plan of the day says to me that we’re not clear yet. We’ve just hit the Yellow Dungeon, which feels big, but Roy literally tumbled in upside down. Not really a stable moment.

*I can't find the set up because I can't search the text for it and I'm out of time to reread the latest strips.

This was fun for me. One thing I learned is that I really need to respect double strips more, there’s a high concentration of them in my links.
Fun analysis, although this is an overly mechanistic view of storytelling.

[Tubercular Ox]

Fun analysis, although this is an overly mechanistic view of storytelling.

Overly? (https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/120189883789772493/) You say?

[Precure]

My choices for the book climaxes would be:

114 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html)
285 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html)
462 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html)
610 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html)
936 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0936.html)
1130 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1130.html)

[Tubercular Ox]

My choices for the book climaxes would be:

114 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html)
285 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html)
462 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html)
610 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html)
936 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0936.html)
1130 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1130.html)

This is wonderful, I feel like it really shows off my prejudices.

We agree on the first and fifth books, hooray for us.

We have the same idea for the sixth book: Greg is defeated. But, correct me if I'm wrong, I feel like the difference is you picked the moment when Greg's character development led to his defeat, and I picked the action scene. I say it this way because it becomes a theme.

I get where you're coming from on Book Four. The plot definitely straightens out and picks up speed after Belkar gets his character growth, but I can't help noticing the character vs action scene thing again.

So since this theme is a thing for me, I have questions about the last two books.

In book two, I see the party defeating Miko. Do you see someone's character being developed, maybe Miko's?

In book three, I see three things: Redcloak and Xykon nearly being defeated, Miko destroying the gate, and the second ironically intruding on the first. What do you see?

I am really digging the idea that books two and three are Miko's story in some way, even if that's not what you intended. But my secret shame is that I liked Miko. I was super excited to see her become a Blackguard without changing her personality or beliefs in any way, just her own character come to roost after losing her moral compass: Detect Evil at will. I was already enjoying it as an extension of Rich's commentary on the alignment system, and even dreaming that maybe it'd turn out the Gods saved Miko from evil by giving her paladin powers, but in the end they couldn't save her from herself.

Then Sabine tried to tempt Miko and it didn't have any of the necessary set-ups. Oh well.

[KorvinStarmast]

But my secret shame is that I liked Miko.
There is nothing wrong with liking Miko. She is a character in a comic book/graphic novel.

but in the end they couldn't save her from herself. Indeed. Belkar tried hard to make her fall, but in the end only she could pull that off.

As to Sabine and Miko, I love how Miko handled Sabine. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0419.html)

[Frozenstep]

We have the same idea for the sixth book: Greg is defeated. But, correct me if I'm wrong, I feel like the difference is you picked the moment when Greg's character development led to his defeat, and I picked the action scene. I say it this way because it becomes a theme.

I get where you're coming from on Book Four. The plot definitely straightens out and picks up speed after Belkar gets his character growth, but I can't help noticing the character vs action scene thing again.

So since this theme is a thing for me, I have questions about the last two books.

In book two, I see the party defeating Miko. Do you see someone's character being developed, maybe Miko's?

In book three, I see three things: Redcloak and Xykon nearly being defeated, Miko destroying the gate, and the second ironically intruding on the first. What do you see?

So, I'd pick almost all the same pages as Precure, except for book 4. The reasons I pick those pages is because they kind of give a big answer to a big question that's been building up throughout the book. Any questions answered afterwards have lower tension/drama behind them.

Book 2 is a bit tricky, since there's a whole lot of big questions being answered all over the place, but 285 is a good choice because at that point, she's the last thing threatening the party. The rest of the sapphire guard and the city are no longer at odds with the order, it's just her. The big question building since Miko's introduction is "how is the order going to deal with Miko? As a party member, ally, enemy, or what?", and 285 answers it.

Book 3, the question is "how are the good guys going to defend the gate from Xykon's attack", and 462 is the answer, they will not. Everything after that is just resolving the consequences of that outcome.

Book 4 I actually think there's a dual climax going on, because one is indeed 610, which resolves the haley/Celia/Belkar side of the plot, but V's attack on Xykon is a separate climax that resolves big questions on the other side of the plot. I say 610 for the first since that clears up the question of where Belkar's internal motivation is going and also resolves the big question of "how are they going to deal with the mark of justice". The action afterwards is part of that climax...which is the problem with trying to narrow it down to a single page, but I'd say the action is pretty much expected the moment Belkar can finally go wild.

As for V and Xykon...even less sure, because it's quite a ride, but it might actually be the moment the Phylactery gets tossed into the sewers. That's the answer to whether the attack will manage to kill Xykon...a big fat no, but still not ideal for Xykon either.

Book 6, the character development moment was the panel when it became clear Durkon had won. How exactly he plans to fix things from that point after are just lower on the scale of drama compared to whether he can win at all in the first place.

But that's just my way of thinking of it all.

[Kish]

I would put the climax of book 4 at the "Roy is resurrected" strip.

[Ruck]

I would put the climax of book 4 at the "Roy is resurrected" strip.

I think I'd pick the Escape scene (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html)-- especially since Roy's resurrection is in progress before that happens and is pretty much inevitable by that point. It feels like part of the denouement to me. Whereas the Escape scene is the last time there's real conflict that puts our heroes in danger, and everything that happens after that is essentially reunions and preparing for the steps they'll take in the next book (for both the Order and Team Evil).

edit: For books 1, 3, and 6, I'd probably pick the strip directly after the one Precure picked-- where Xykon actually explodes, the Gate actually explodes, and Vampire!Durkon actually gets dusted. (Although 6 I'm not sure about; it's a little odd because there are still relevant scenes with Thor and the mini-climax of the Council of Clans afterward. They're not the Big Plotline of the book, but they don't feel like denouement either.) I agree with the choice for 5 and I haven't thought about 2 yet.

[Precure]

We have the same idea for the sixth book: Greg is defeated. But, correct me if I'm wrong, I feel like the difference is you picked the moment when Greg's character development led to his defeat, and I picked the action scene. I say it this way because it becomes a theme.

1130 is Greg's actual defeat, as he cease to be a threat, and her followers are dead or escaped.


I get where you're coming from on Book Four. The plot definitely straightens out and picks up speed after Belkar gets his character growth, but I can't help noticing the character vs action scene thing again.

That book is quite unusual as there is split storylines parallel to the split party members. I choose that strip as the climax since it's the turning point of the story. It's also when the party was at their lowest point as we last see V in their falling state.


In book two, I see the party defeating Miko. Do you see someone's character being developed, maybe Miko's?

As I see, the main theme of the book was the growing tension between Miko and the Order. The incident at the court was the climax of that and thus ended any possibility of reconciliation, firmly established them as opposite sides.


In book three, I see three things: Redcloak and Xykon nearly being defeated, Miko destroying the gate, and the second ironically intruding on the first. What do you see?

As I see, there is two main themes: the war over the gate and Miko's "fall from grace" which ultimately led to her being the one destroying the gate, following the "letter" of her oath but failing at the "spirit" since she ignored(?) the situation (at least that's what I think Rich was implying there). Anyway, the gate is destroyed, Miko is dead, Xykon and Redcloak failed at their goals but survived, the city has fallen etc.


I am really digging the idea that books two and three are Miko's story in some way, even if that's not what you intended. But my secret shame is that I liked Miko.

She's definitely a main character in these books, hence why there is so much discussion about her.