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Sstoopidtallkid
2007-12-06, 11:51 PM
The first session of a new campaign is tomorrow and I need advice with my spell list to keep it from being either underpowered or broken. I'm starting as a wizard 3/master specialist 3/geometer 2, so my ECL is 8. My DM let me spend a large amount of my WBL on a Blessed Book, and my geometer gives me the ability to write spells that only take up a single page of the book, so effectively there are no limits on the number of spells I can afford. My question is, what is a logical and balanced number of spells to know? I have never run a wizard this high before, so I'm a bit nervous about it, and I don't have any way to contact my DM before tomorrow's session. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

Seffbasilisk
2007-12-07, 12:01 AM
As many as you can.

Better answer? As many as you think you'll find a use for, and still retain pages for leveling up.

Ganurath
2007-12-07, 12:23 AM
You have access to 1,000 spells. Even if you gorged yourself on every Wizard spell in every book you have access to that isn't in one of your barred schools, you'd still probably have room to spare. Especially if one of the schools you didn't bar was evocation, since the only worthwhile spells in there are fireball for mooks and contingency.

Kaelik
2007-12-07, 12:24 AM
In this situation the only correct answer is too photocopy the PHB spell section, put the sheets inside the Spell Compendium book and declare "THIS IS MY SPELLBOOK!" In a shout of triumph. The proceed to take a real world hour preparing spells every time you character does. Remember, It's okay because it's Roleplaying.

Iku Rex
2007-12-07, 12:26 AM
What do you mean by "no limits on the number of spells I can afford"? You'll have to pay to copy spells into your spellbook.

Fiery Diamond
2007-12-07, 12:30 AM
Boccob's Blessed Book allows you not to pay the cost for scribing, Iku Rex.

-Fiery Diamond

Sstoopidtallkid
2007-12-07, 12:31 AM
Edit: Ninja'd in my own thread.

brian c
2007-12-07, 12:36 AM
So... room for 1,000 spells... no cost to scribe them... you should pretty much know every spell, up to 4th level. You said you're a Master Specialist; what is your specialized school, and which ones are banned? If you say that, you'll get more specific tips for what spells to grab.

Iku Rex
2007-12-07, 12:39 AM
Boccob's Blessed Book allows you not to pay the cost for scribing, Iku Rex.You still have to pay to copy spells into your spellbook from someone else's.


Spells Copied from Another’s Spellbook or a Scroll (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#addingSpellstoaWizardsSpellbook)

A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook. No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Next, she must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from her specialty school. She cannot, however, learn any spells from her prohibited schools. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, below). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.

If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. She cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until she gains another rank in Spellcraft. A spell that was being copied from a scroll does not vanish from the scroll.

In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to the spell’s level × 50 gp.

Miles Invictus
2007-12-07, 01:11 AM
"THIS IS MY SPELLBOOK!"

Ah, Army of Darkness. Is it ever irrelevant? :smallbiggrin:

Learn as many spells as you can, even the ones that reek of pure cheese. Sparing use of overpowered spells won't break the campaign, but they can save your party if you know a big battle's coming up.

Ganurath
2007-12-07, 01:18 AM
You still have to pay to copy spells into your spellbook from someone else's.Public libraries, Guild memberships, salvaged tomes, there are plenty of ways to learn spells that doesn't involve cheating off some retired senile gish.

Iku Rex
2007-12-07, 01:29 AM
Public libraries, Guild memberships, salvaged tomes, there are plenty of ways to learn spells that doesn't involve cheating off some retired senile gish.Sure, and your character may have found a million gold pieces laying around as well. But that's not how the wealth per level rules work.

And I have no idea what "cheating off some retired senile gish" is supposed to mean.

Ganurath
2007-12-07, 01:36 AM
Sure, and your character may have found a million gold pieces laying around as well. But that's not how the wealth per level rules work.

And I have no idea what "cheating off some retired senile gish" is supposed to mean.WBL: Actually, with Mount, Magic Aura, and Disguise Self, you can sell fake horses in various towns for free money... so yeah, plenty of cash even if it needs to be paid for. Massive debt and con artistry makes a good plot hook, too.

Cheating: Copying on someone else's test... bad metaphor, I know.
Retired: You think an active wizard has time to loan his spellbook out to someone else to have spells copied off of it?
Senile: Would YOU trust a stranger with the secrets of your abilities and the means to kill you?
Gish: Some slang for a type of arcanist...

Kaelik
2007-12-07, 01:38 AM
Use this system:

I have a two fourth level spells. I trade with equal level Wizards on a one for one basis.
I have four level 4 spells. I trade with a different Wizard on a one for one basis.
I have eight spells.

Ad Infinitum.

Kurald Galain
2007-12-07, 05:40 AM
This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18500) lists a number of good spells.

Sstoopidtallkid
2007-12-07, 05:55 AM
I'm worried more about choosing too many spells. I'm just looking for a number that most people would have after 8 levels of play. I get 22 naturally, plus cantrips, but I've never run wizards in more than one-offs, and I don't want to overpower my party.

Chronicled
2007-12-07, 05:56 AM
This sort of situation is where you take the elf wizard level 1 substitution from Races of the Wild, and the Collegiate Wizard feat for 4 spells a level without a banned school, and an extra spell per day at your highest spell slot. :smallbiggrin:

Kurald Galain
2007-12-07, 06:20 AM
I'm worried more about choosing too many spells. I'm just looking for a number that most people would have after 8 levels of play. I get 22 naturally, plus cantrips, but I've never run wizards in more than one-offs, and I don't want to overpower my party.

More spells won't get you more power, but more versatility. The power is in how many you can memorize. If you don't want to overpower your party, you should stay away from those spells that are known to be very strong or broken - i.e. the polymorph line, shivering touch, stuff like that. Plus, if you want to be more of a team player, take some buff spells that improve the performance of your friends (e.g. Haste), they'll appreciate that. Also, logically, your character should know more low-level spells than high-level spells.

Just to pick numbers out of a hat, get like 12 first- and second-level spells, 8 third-levels, and 4 fourth-levels. That sounds quite reasonable, to me at least.

deadseashoals
2007-12-07, 06:28 AM
Don't overspend on scribing into your book (assuming your DM makes you pay to copy), just get the essentials and a little bit extra, spending the rest on scrolls and maybe a headband of intellect and cloak of resistance. There's a lot of crappy spells out there that just aren't worth paying for a scroll or paying some other wizard to copy.

I don't really have an answer as to what is a logical amount to know. Just... take the spells you want to know. You're not going to ever run out of room in the book, and if you pay for each one, it's perfectly logical and balanced. Knowing more spells isn't going to break the game.

nerulean
2007-12-07, 06:46 AM
A good ballpark is to pretend you have the feat Collegiate Wizard, which gives you double the number of spells you would learn automatically. Then, if you find yourself really wanting an extra spell of such and such a level, there's no reason you can't take it. That should put you at roughly the amount a decent adventuring wizard could be expected to have picked up.

Triaxx
2007-12-07, 08:56 AM
On a side note, even if you decide to fill your book with nothing but blaster spells, something you should never be without is Baleful Polymorph. Turning a Dragon into a squirrel is always worth the effort. :smallbiggrin:

You have a thousand pages to play with, but don't be afraid to cherry pick. If you take something, then find out a higher level version works better, you might as well not have the lower version.

lord_khaine
2007-12-07, 09:15 AM
Gish: Some slang for a type of arcanist...

actualy a gish is some sort of hybrid "warrior"/spellcaster who combines melee and magical powers.

to start with it was the name for the githyanki fighter/mages.

mostlyharmful
2007-12-07, 09:59 AM
Take as many as you could ever envisage yourself using. There are tricks to get access to spells for free (see earlier posts by Kaelik among others). After that the only cost of spells is the money you use in copying them (0 with your BBB) and the trade off on space in your book (also completely irrelevant to you). So go to town, anything looks shiney it's yours, even cheese since unused cheese doesn't destabilize a game and you can pull it if you and your friends feel you need to. Wizs versatility is one of the things that beats Sorcs into the ground, so be versatile.:smallsmile:

Saph
2007-12-07, 10:11 AM
WBL: Actually, with Mount, Magic Aura, and Disguise Self, you can sell fake horses in various towns for free money... so yeah, plenty of cash even if it needs to be paid for.

WBL Does Not Work That Way. A wizard can't say they get extra money because they have spells any more than a rogue can say that they're starting with an extra 100,000 GP because their skills are good enough to let them rob a treasury.

By core rules, you pay 50 GP per spell level, assuming the spell's available. So 100 gp for a level 2 spell, 150 for a level 3, and so on (first-level spells can be bought for only 25, since you can get them in scroll form instead of copying them). Your DM may be nice and give you spells for free, but unless he's said so, you can't. (There's no good balance reason for it, either - having extra spells significantly increases a wizard's power and flexibility. The copy fee and scribing time is the price they pay for it.)

- Saph

Kaelik
2007-12-07, 10:36 AM
WBL Does Not Work That Way. A wizard can't say they get extra money because they have spells any more than a rogue can say that they're starting with an extra 100,000 GP because their skills are good enough to let them rob a treasury.

By core rules, you pay 50 GP per spell level, assuming the spell's available. So 100 gp for a level 2 spell, 150 for a level 3, and so on (first-level spells can be bought for only 25, since you can get them in scroll form instead of copying them). Your DM may be nice and give you spells for free, but unless he's said so, you can't. (There's no good balance reason for it, either - having extra spells significantly increases a wizard's power and flexibility. The copy fee and scribing time is the price they pay for it.)

- Saph

Actually as per RAW you can pay that much to copy spells from another Wizard's book. However it specifically says that equal level Wizards trade spells. In the text the tell you that you can get some for free.

Ultimately there is no way to figure out how spells effect WBL. It's entirely DM decision. And once you have 20 spells of a level 100 is practically no more powerful. That's why I say he should just pay the amount of Gold the DM thinks he would pay for spells. Just a straight number not based on number of spells. Then claim all Wizard spells of each level.

Yakk
2007-12-07, 11:44 AM
Pay the 50 gold per level. It keeps you in check, and gives you an in-game motivation to collect more spells.

Don't forget your "free spells" from leveling up, however.

You should be able to afford enough spells to be effective.

Prometheus
2007-12-07, 11:49 AM
Back to the original idea of the thread, you best bet to avoid brokeness is still to know every spell you can get your hands on. Then you are to memorize a variety of spells that you can use in creative ways, rather than the same potent ones. Remember to keep scrolls on hand for the ones you don't memorize.

Draz74
2007-12-07, 11:51 AM
Pay the 50 gold per level. It keeps you in check, and gives you an in-game motivation to collect more spells.

Don't forget your "free spells" from leveling up, however.

You should be able to afford enough spells to be effective.

I support this advice thoroughly.

Subotei
2007-12-07, 02:46 PM
If I were GM you'd get only the number of spells you were allowed from basic character creation - anything else you have to find/procure in game. Fair play if you buy scrolls from your starting money and scribe those though.

Have you thought of using the last few hundred pages as a diary? Or fire lighters?

pinkbunny
2007-12-07, 02:59 PM
Personally, as a DM, I would make my players pay for spells they start with. All those tricks for free spells all involve roleplaying, and are under the game's pervue, not your background's.

deadseashoals
2007-12-07, 04:27 PM
Actually as per RAW you can pay that much to copy spells from another Wizard's book. However it specifically says that equal level Wizards trade spells. In the text the tell you that you can get some for free.

Ultimately there is no way to figure out how spells effect WBL. It's entirely DM decision. And once you have 20 spells of a level 100 is practically no more powerful. That's why I say he should just pay the amount of Gold the DM thinks he would pay for spells. Just a straight number not based on number of spells. Then claim all Wizard spells of each level.

It's not really any more reasonable to say that you've found enough wizards that have spells that aren't in your book, and don't have spells that are in your book, and are willing to trade spells with you to the point where you've got every single spell ever printed than it is to say that you're the scion of a great noble house, and you should start with one million gold.

AKA_Bait
2007-12-07, 04:37 PM
It's not really any more reasonable to say that you've found enough wizards that have spells that aren't in your book, and don't have spells that are in your book, and are willing to trade spells with you to the point where you've got every single spell ever printed than it is to say that you're the scion of a great noble house, and you should start with one million gold.

QFT. I mean, come on, Wizards are powerful enough without taking away one of their only limiting factors (cost of learning new spells).

Jayabalard
2007-12-07, 05:14 PM
Use this system:

I have a two fourth level spells. I trade with equal level Wizards on a one for one basis.
I have four level 4 spells. I trade with a different Wizard on a one for one basis.
I have eight spells.

Ad Infinitum.I would expect any reasonable GM to laugh in my face if I came to him with this to explain an arbitrary number of free spells.

This assumes that you can:
Find an infinite supply of equal level wizards who know different spells than you don't know;
Said wizards must need spells that you have; it's only a trade if they need spells from you as well.
Convince said wizards to trade with you.

#1 Depends on how many other wizards there are to work at all.

#2 Seems highly improbably. After all, if you picked the two most useful spells as your free ones, wouldn't you expect that many other wizards would either have picked those exact same two spells, or already traded for them?

#3 Seems unlikely in many cases. You're a competing practitioner of the craft, and craftsmen generally do not exchange their special tricks of the trade with competing craftsmen; quite the contrary, they're likely tend to jealously guard those secrets that can give them an edge over their fellow craftsmen.

Chances are high that you will only be able to learn some spells this way, not arbitrary spell X, since you won't be able to find that many wizards who need what you have, and even the ones that need what you have may not have what you need... and even the ones that meet both criteria may not be willing to give up their competitive edge over you.

Kaelik
2007-12-07, 05:52 PM
I would expect any reasonable GM to laugh in my face if I came to him with this to explain an arbitrary number of free spells.

This assumes that you can:
Find an infinite supply of equal level wizards who know different spells than you don't know;
Said wizards must need spells that you have; it's only a trade if they need spells from you as well.
Convince said wizards to trade with you.

#1 Depends on how many other wizards there are to work at all.

#2 Seems highly improbably. After all, if you picked the two most useful spells as your free ones, wouldn't you expect that many other wizards would either have picked those exact same two spells, or already traded for them?

#3 Seems unlikely in many cases. You're a competing practitioner of the craft, and craftsmen generally do not exchange their special tricks of the trade with competing craftsmen; quite the contrary, they're likely tend to jealously guard those secrets that can give them an edge over their fellow craftsmen.

Chances are high that you will only be able to learn some spells this way, not arbitrary spell X, since you won't be able to find that many wizards who need what you have, and even the ones that need what you have may not have what you need... and even the ones that meet both criteria may not be willing to give up their competitive edge over you.

First of all, I was just giving a vague example, I would never actually use that. Secondly, I would never use anything at all to get free spells without talking to the DM about it first.

As for your points, given a large supply of wizards (say a couple different schools in different cities) you could easily perform this action with every spell level lower then you highest because you can easily argue that you have had a longer time to gather spells, and you have an advantage in negotiations (because you know more spells, and higher level ones.)

Secondly, given a large enough number of Wizards you could easily buy several spells, and then use your huge advantage to trade 2 for 1 if necessary (or just 1 for 1 since you have so many good spells.) Which was my point all along. If my player bought 20 spells of a given level, and then wanted another hundred (or just all spells of that level) I'd give it to him free, this because of course he could get them using his vast repertoire, and secondly, there isn't much appreciable difference between the power level of 20 and all assuming he made good selections for his 20.

Kurald Galain
2007-12-07, 05:55 PM
I would expect any reasonable GM to laugh in my face if I came to him with this to explain an arbitrary number of free spells.

Precisely. This has about an equal chance of working as pyramid schemes do.

You start with Burning Hands, Color Spray, and Hold Portal.

Mage #1 wants to trade with you, and offers Color Spray for trade.
Mage #2 is currently dating your ex-girlfriend and doesn't want to speak to you.
Mage #3 offers a Sleep spell for trade, but already has Burning Hands and Color Spray, and doesn't care about Hold Portal.
Mage #4 has Enlarge Person, which he demonstrates by casting it on his rogue friend, who promises not to backstab you in exchange for your Burning Hands spell and your purse.

Yay.

Subotei
2007-12-08, 05:28 AM
Precisely. This has about an equal chance of working as pyramid schemes do.

You start with Burning Hands, Color Spray, and Hold Portal.

Mage #1 wants to trade with you, and offers Color Spray for trade.
Mage #2 is currently dating your ex-girlfriend and doesn't want to speak to you.
Mage #3 offers a Sleep spell for trade, but already has Burning Hands and Color Spray, and doesn't care about Hold Portal.
Mage #4 has Enlarge Person, which he demonstrates by casting it on his rogue friend, who promises not to backstab you in exchange for your Burning Hands spell and your purse.

Yay.

Mage #5 spots a low-ish level wizard trying to buy up every spell he can and realises he must have a Blessed Book... cue robbery scene.