How do you make the Ancestral Guardian Barbarian good but not TOO good?

[Infernally Clay]

For context I'm playing in a pretty low power game with some friends who aren't super experienced with the game so we're just having fun.

I picked Ancestral Guardian Barbarian because what Barbarians lack in class features they make up for in character and the party doesn't really have any healing and I figured attracting the attention of the biggest and meanest thing in a battle was a good way to keep the rest of them alive in case fights got too hard or complicated.

The problem I have is that we just hit fifth level and I am acutely aware that this is kinda it for the Barbarian. I've already got all the good features of the class and it's all downhill from here, so I'd like to know if anyone has any ideas for keeping the original intent there (protecting the party from harm) while giving me more tools to have fun with without going too minmax-y.

Now, I'm already aware of some very cheesy combinations like Echo Knight Fighter multiclass or the Sentinel / Polearm Master combo but I don't want to use stuff like that because it's not about taking over the game with powergaming or overwhelming the DM. I just want a fun and flavourful way to take the edge off the sharp cliff that the Barbarian is facing down.

To help narrow down my choices, I do not have the stats to multiclass into Cleric, Druid, Monk or Ranger and, as a Barbarian, I probably don't want to go Bard, Sorcerer or Wizard without a very good reason. That means Fighter or Rogue are probably safer bets. I'm kinda leaning towards Rune Knight Fighter.

Any better ideas?

[LudicSavant]

For context I'm playing in a pretty low power game with some friends who aren't super experienced with the game so we're just having fun.

I picked Ancestral Guardian Barbarian because what Barbarians lack in class features they make up for in character and the party doesn't really have any healing and I figured attracting the attention of the biggest and meanest thing in a battle was a good way to keep the rest of them alive in case fights got too hard or complicated.

The problem I have is that we just hit fifth level and I am acutely aware that this is kinda it for the Barbarian. I've already got all the good features of the class and it's all downhill from here, so I'd like to know if anyone has any ideas for keeping the original intent there (protecting the party from harm) while giving me more tools to have fun with without going too minmax-y.

Now, I'm already aware of some very cheesy combinations like Echo Knight Fighter multiclass or the Sentinel / Polearm Master combo but I don't want to use stuff like that because it's not about taking over the game with powergaming or overwhelming the DM. I just want a fun and flavourful way to take the edge off the sharp cliff that the Barbarian is facing down.

To help narrow down my choices, I do not have the stats to multiclass into Cleric, Druid, Monk or Ranger and, as a Barbarian, I probably don't want to go Bard, Sorcerer or Wizard without a very good reason. That means Fighter or Rogue are probably safer bets. I'm kinda leaning towards Rune Knight Fighter.

Any better ideas?

I wouldn't worry overmuch about 'taking over the game with powergaming or overwhelming the DM.' Even maximally optimized Barbarians aren't that scary. That's what people mean when they say that Barbs have a 'low ceiling.'

So don't be afraid to break out the best options you know. Echo Knight Fighter is quite good for Ancestral, but it's not overwhelming -- your range is still short, your clone vanishes in one hit, and groups / unconventional magical foes will still pose a challenge as they do for pretty much every Barbarian.

And PAM/Sentinel is ASI-heavy and mostly a threat to things that you would have beaten anyways (e.g. single target enemies that just want to walk straight at their target and trade blows until one side falls over).

Usually when a beginner DM struggles to challenge a Barbarian (no matter how well optimized said Barbarian is) it's because they are failing to use a diversity of tactics -- e.g. everything uses the zombie strategy: walk straight at the nearest PC and trade blows until one side falls over. This is the enemy tactic that Barbarians perform best against. Thing is, there are a lot of other monster tactics in D&D.

[solidork]

Are you using the optional class features? If so, I'd stay in Barbarian until 8 unless there was a really compelling flavor reason you'd want to multiclass.

I usually suggest that you at least consider things other than sheer mechanics when it comes to deciding these things. Rune Knight is mechanically powerful, but so are many options - one that makes sense based on who your character is and where they've been going might end up being more satisfying.

[Quietus]

If you don't want to go overboard with optimizing, stay Barbarian. That level 6 feature is really nice for support, 7 gets you advantage on initiative and possibly Instinctive Pounce if you're using Tasha's, 8 gets you a feat, 9 is admittedly kinda dead, but 10 upgrades the level 6 feature.

I made a dragonborn ancestral guardian, went sword and board, and was the support of my party. Admittedly I used Dragon Fear to turn my mediocre breath weapon into an AoE fear effect, which was a solid option, but otherwise it was fairly straightforward and effective. I was planning at level 8 to pick up Shield Master, to lean more into the "Difficult to bring down" side of things, and was prepared to stay full ancestral guardian and feel effective the whole way through.

[Mastikator]

It's not all downhill for you at level 5 if you want to stay a support barbarian. The 6th level ability spirit shield is pretty good. And since your goal is to not minmax then staying barbarian is a fine choice. I'd say stick with barbarian until level 8 for the ASI. Multiclassing into fighter will increase your DPR, but not much protectively (unless you take the interception fighting style for when you're not raging).

I'll add my "stay barbarian" vote.

[da newt]

If you are looking for more ways to help keep the party in one piece maybe Paladin is a decent MC option (and not OP). A bit of healing from LoH, you can smite while raging and recklessly crit fishing, a fighting style, and a couple spells can be handy. Interception is a nice FS that helps the party.

Or rogue it up and get a bit of expertise, SA, and Cunning Actions and then a subclass too (swashbuckler is nice).

BM fighter is always a decent option that adds some nice tools to the kit.

Or just stick w/ Barb and add PAM for BA strikes and Opp Att when they approach you or go off the rails and pick up a long bow so you can impose DISADV and resistance to baddies from far away ...

[RogueJK]

Multiclassing into fighter will increase your DPR, but not much protectively (unless you take the interception fighting style for when you're not raging).

Even when you are raging, Interception is often a better option if the ally is within 5' and takes damage from an attack specifically.

Starting at Ancestral Guardian Barbarian 6, Spirit Shield uses your reaction to reduce incoming damage to an ally by 2d6. Importantly, this works out to 30' range and applies to any damage, not just those from an attack. But it only applies while raging, and you won't always be raging.

So there are certainly times when SS is the only option since Interception doesn't apply, for an ally outside of 5' away or taking damage from something other than an attack.

But let's look at situations in which the abilities overlap... An ally within 5' taking damage from an attack while you're raging. At Fighter 1/Barbarian 6, SS would be blocking 7 damage on average, while Interception would be blocking 8.5. And Interception continues to scale higher as your PB increases, making it continue to reduce even more than SS if you stop taking Barbarian levels after the recommended 6-8.

Importantly, Interception also has a higher floor than SS... SS can reduce the damage by as little as 2 (double 1s on the dice), but Interception will never reduce less than 1+PB (4-7 minimum at the levels where both options could apply).


However, let's say you stick to Barbarian even past the recommended 6-8. SS goes up to 3d6 at Barbarian 10. So at Fighter 1/Barbarian 10, SS would be blocking 10.5 points on average and Interception would be blocking 9.5. SS wins... until Fighter 1/Barbarian 12 when Interception goes back to blocking the same 10.5, at least for a couple levels. They stay neck-in-neck until SS pulls back ahead starting at Fighter 1/Barbarian 14, blocking 14 average damage compared to Interception's 10.5, and Interception never closes the gap again up through Level 20.


So, Interception isn't totally redundant on a Fighter/AG Barbarian. It's actually the better option in situations to which both apply if you're going to be stopping at Barbarian 6-9. And SS+Interception together lets you be an even better support Barb by covering more instances of damage than just SS strictly while raging, especially if your DM runs long adventuring days with multiple combats where your Barbarian 6/Fighter X character frequently runs out of their 4 rages per day.

[Mastikator]

Even when you are raging, Interception is often a better option if the ally is within 5' and takes damage from an attack specifically.

Starting at Ancestral Guardian Barbarian 6, Spirit Shield uses your reaction to reduce incoming damage to an ally by 2d6. Importantly, this works out to 30' range and applies to any damage, not just those from an attack. But it only applies while raging, and you won't always be raging.

So there are certainly times when SS is the only option since Interception doesn't apply, for an ally outside of 5' away or taking damage from something other than an attack.

But let's look at situations in which the abilities overlap... An ally within 5' taking damage from an attack while you're raging. At Fighter 1/Barbarian 6, SS would be blocking 7 damage on average, while Interception would be blocking 8.5. And Interception continues to scale higher as your PB increases, making it continue to reduce even more than SS if you stop taking Barbarian levels after the recommended 6-8.

Importantly, Interception also has a higher floor than SS... SS can reduce the damage by as little as 2 (double 1s on the dice), but Interception will never reduce less than 1+PB (4-7 minimum at the levels where both options could apply).


However, let's say you stick to Barbarian even past the recommended 6-8. SS goes up to 3d6 at Barbarian 10. So at Fighter 1/Barbarian 10, SS would be blocking 10.5 points on average and Interception would be blocking 9.5. SS wins... until Fighter 1/Barbarian 12 when Interception goes back to blocking the same 10.5, at least for a couple levels. They stay neck-in-neck until SS pulls back ahead starting at Fighter 1/Barbarian 14, blocking 14 average damage compared to Interception's 10.5, and Interception never closes the gap again up through Level 20.


So, Interception isn't totally redundant on a Fighter/AG Barbarian. It's actually the better option in situations to which both apply if you're going to be stopping at Barbarian 6-9. And SS+Interception together lets you be an even better support Barb by covering more instances of damage than just SS strictly while raging, especially if your DM runs long adventuring days with multiple combats where your Barbarian 6/Fighter X character frequently runs out of their 4 rages per day.
That... is a solid point. A single level of fighter at level 6 or 7 would increase the ancestral rager's protective capabilities.

[Trask]

Warlock could be cool. Your spell slots are few but high-impact, so not that hard to use them effectively before rage. I would pick spells with instant effects. Celestial warlock could have great RP flavor with the ancestral barbarian, if you lean into the holiness of their spirits with your RP. You have a heal that can be used while you rage. You could be a pretty hard-to-kill tank, who can also heal others; an angry paladin. I'd probably get pact of the chain for the buddy who can spam help. Often when I'm playing with less experienced people I like to play a supportive role.

Hexblade could also be good for all the reasons that its good. Even has some RP angles too. Your Pact of the Blade is a shapeshifting, ghostly weapon was given to you by your ancestor ghosts, and when you woke up, you had it. Hexblade's curse might be worth getting brutal critical for, and eldritch smite is always good when you want to use spell slots in rage.

[Frogreaver]

Barbarian swashbuckler Rogue. Play the skirmisher and deal good damage.

Hit one enemy to proc ancestral guardians. Bonus action dash and Position yourself beside another far enough away that the first can’t just move to you. (Sneak attack provides a strong OA) so now this enemy shouldn’t be moving away from you either.

[RogueJK]

Barbarian swashbuckler Rogue. Play the skirmisher and deal good damage.

Hit one enemy to proc ancestral guardians. Bonus action dash and Position yourself beside another far enough away that the first can’t just move to you. (Sneak attack provides a strong OA) so now this enemy shouldn’t be moving away from you either.


Yeah, STR-based Barbarian/Rogues can be tons of fun.

Barbarian/Swashbuckler is a good choice for a more mobile playstyle, combining the Barbarian's speed with Cunning Action Dash and the Swashbuckler's free Disengage effect. (To crank the concept up to 11, picture a Centaur race Elk Totem Barbarian 5/Swashbuckler Rogue X moving 130' each round while still making 2x attacks.)

Barbarian/Soulknife can use Psychic Blades for both TWF melee attacks (with both +STR and +Rage to the BA attack) as well as thrown weapon ranged attacks. Thrown Psychic Blades don't get to benefit from Reckless Attack or Rage damage bonus, can still trigger Ancestral Protectors, and do so from 60' away.

Either of these more mobile/kiting options work especially well on an Ancestral Guardians Barbarian chassis, thanks to Ancestral Protectors incentivizing at least one enemy to try to focus on you (if they can even get to you).

And in line with what the OP is wanting, the cool thing about Barbarian/Rogue builds like this is that - due to Sneak Attack being limited to Finessable weapons (although you can still utilize STR) - they're not going to be as overtly powerful as the bog-standard Reckless GWM PAM Barbarian, but can still dish out solid damage numbers, and they open up some potentially more interesting playstyles than just the traditional "I stand in melee with my big sword/axe/polearm and exchange blows with enemies".


Also, a Barbarian/Rogue stacking High STR + Advantage on STR checks while raging + Athletics Expertise can make for some nigh-irresistable grapples and shoves. But that might be moving a bit too far into "too good" territory for OP's tastes...

[Speely]

A different take than you might be leaning toward:

Either Clockwork Soul Sorcerer or Celestial Warlock (I prefer the latter.)

Clockwork Soul gives you some nice utility spells that can be cast out of combat (Aid, Alarm) and a way to protect allies by negating advantage or disadvantage. If you go till level 11 (Sorc 6) you can also start warding them. All while raging. Edit: this is a bit better than the Level 6 Ancestral Barbarian protection because it does not require a reaction, but since it comes online so much later, I think it's not worth building toward, especially given what follows below: )

Celestial Warlock Pact of the Tome gives you bonus action heals to revive downed allies while you are raging, a reason to not pick Agonizing Blast/EB but instead go for more utility spells/invocations like Book of Ancient Secrets to give you crazy out of combat potential utility via Ritual spells.

Of course, Pact of the Chain would give you Gift of the Everliving Ones, which would be cool but less interesting conceptually imo. I like the idea of an Ancestral Barb who has a special book and has made a pact with a Celestial through their ancestors quite a lot.

Warlock spell slots also give you potential alternate avenues between short rests in case you blow through your Rages, which is a pretty good resource boon.

Note all of these options get you access to Armor of Agathys, which does not require concentration and goes pretty hard on a Barbarian.

[JellyPooga]

As others have said, Rogue is a solid MC option for Barbarian; a ton of synergy there. Thief Rogue is conventionally a controversial choice, depending on what split between Rog/Bar is, but Fast Hands plus Rage and Athletics Expertise makes you one of the best "circumstantial yet resourceless" melee control characters. In a newish group looking to explore beyond the "silver platter" of class features, Thief/Barb offers opportunities to utilise terrain and lesser used options like the Ready and Use an Object Actions, without negatively impacting the group dynamic and power curve.

Two-weapon fighting as a Rogue/Barb is a relatively solid option; you might only proc Sneak Attack once in a turn, but Rage+Str+SA can start adding up and opens options like using a whip, mitigating the low damage dice with your damage riders while benefitting from a 1-H reach weapon; with Sentinel or other off-turn attacks, plus terrain manipulation and mobility, this can give you a huge amount of battlefield control.

[RogueJK]

Two-weapon fighting as a Rogue/Barb is a relatively solid option

Yep. In another thread a few months back, I ran the numbers to show that the damage of a TWF straight class Barbarian is competitive with a non-GWM/non-PAM 2H Greataxe/Greatsword Barbarian in Tiers 1 and 2, purely from the third attack's third chance to land Weapon+Rage damage, trigger a subclass ability like Zealot or AG, or land a crit. (Especially when you start stacking on the Piercer feat too.)

Adding in Sneak Attack on top of that would put it ahead of the non-GWM 2H. TWF Barb/Rogue is not going to be overshadowing the standard Reckless GWM Barbarian, but will still be dealing enough damage to be a solid contributor.


Plus, the Soulknife can TWF even better than the usual Barbarian or Barbarian/Rogue, with additional +STR to the BA attack without even having to invest in a Fighting Style or Feat, plus the ability to do it at 60' range when needed.

[Witty Username]

I saw a Barbarian/warlock build at one point that may suit your needs. It was mostly using Armor of Agathys to do reflexive damage with Ancestral redirecting ire towards themselves as a dammed if do dammed if don't.

Caster mixes are pretty neat because the give alot of out of combat utility and barbarian is pretty fine in combat by 5th level even after a hard turn.

Edit: I don't recall what the build originally used, but undying or undead patron would be my flavor recommendations, make a pact with your ancestors' spirits and gain their wisdom. I think undead has some fear affect stuff that is nice for tank control but I admit that I am not that familiar with it.

[RogueJK]

Edit: I don't recall what the build originally used, but undying or undead patron would be my flavor recommendations, make a pact with your ancestors' spirits and gain their wisdom. I think undead has some fear affect stuff that is nice for tank control but I admit that I am not that familiar with it.

(Celestial Warlock is also a decent option for a Barbarian/Warlock, since their Bonus Action Healing Light isn't a spell, so it can be used while Raging.)

But yes, Undead Patron works well as a frontline melee Warlock. Typically seen as a primary Bladelock with a 1 level Fighter dip for armor/weapons and a fighting style, but potentially workable as a Barbarian with some Warlock levels as well.

1 level gets them Temp HP and a Fear effect that's triggered by landing attacks, usable PB minutes per day. And since its uses scale on Proficiency it isn't as reliant on Warlock levels.

6 levels gets them the ability to add another dice of damage to one attack per turn. Handy for a Greataxe-wielding Barbarian...

And neither of those are spells or require Concentration, so there's no conflict with Rage.

Plus, since you can already get Extra Attack and weapon/armor proficiency from Barbarian, you aren't locked into going Pact of the Blade unless you just want access to something like Eldritch Smite. It opens you up to other alternatives like Tomelock for tons of out of combat Ritual casting utility. Or Chainlock for a flying invisible scout, along with boosted healing effects from Gift of the Ever-Living Ones.

The big downside is that it adds another stat to the already fairly MAD Barbarian, requiring a high STR, decent DEX and CON, and at least a 13 CHA. (And preferably a higher CHA if you want your Fear effect to land reliably.) Another downside is that both your Form of Dread and Rage are activated with Bonus Actions, resulting in it taking two turns before your full combat potential is up and running.

That could look something like this:
Half Elf Ancestral Guardians Barbarian 6/Undead Warlock 6
STR 15+1
DEX 13+1
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 10
CHA 12+2
ASIs: +2 STR, GWM
Pact of the Tome
Invocations: Devil's Sight, Book of Ancient Secrets, Far Scribe
Cantrips: Minor Illusion, Mage Hand, Chill Touch, Guidance*, Prestidigitation*, Message*
Spells Known: Armor of Agathys, Invisibility, Darkness, Fly, Gaseous Form, Phantom Steed, Speak With Dead, plus any 1st-3rd level Rituals you can find
Wear Medium Armor and use a Greataxe

Not super optimized, but still an interesting concept. Sort of a "warrior shaman" type character, who flies into a battle rage in combat and hits things with an axe, but has a lot more utility out of combat than a straight class Barbarian thanks to their spellcasting and rituals. Armor of Agathys is an option, but won't be ideal in every fight, since it eats your 1st round action. Best used when it can be pre-cast before combat.