Charismatic Swashbuckler

[Nerwen]

When most casters go for CHA they get stronger. If ANY marital goes for CHA they get weaker. What do you think of allowing the swashbuckler to use CHA as the modifier for both to hit and damage? In all the martials there is pretty much no mechanical use for charisma. I want something like Inigo Montoya but RAW I have to choose between being a decent fighter and being charismatic. I want to have the force of personality influence the battlefield as it does in so many movies and I don't want to suck up to a scimitar to get it. Being charming should NOT require magic [my charm doesn't ;) ]. You would still need DEX for AC and skills, but investing in CHA would not feel like shooting yourself in the foot.

[Dualight]

This is literally why Hexblade warlock is a tempting multiclass for Swashbuckler rogues. Both subclasses are even in Xanathar's Guide to Everything, so the combo even works in a PHB+1 environment. Swashbuckler's have incentive to have a heightened CHA anyway, due to them adding CHA to initiative, and their 9th level feature being based in Charisma(Persuasion) checks. Paladins also have a lot of incentive to go for high CHA, but they are half-casters and more 'knight-in-shining-armour' than swashbucklers by default.

[solidork]

This wouldn't really add anything to single classed rogues - you still need high Dex for good AC with light armor. You can pretty easily afford a 14 Charisma with Point Buy, and that's plenty for the features you have that key off of charisma. Take expertise in your social skill of choice and you'll be better at it than just about everyone that doesn't have expertise, even if they're maxing charisma.

[Nerwen]

This is literally why Hexblade warlock is a tempting multiclass for Swashbuckler rogues. Both subclasses are even in Xanathar's Guide to Everything, so the combo even works in a PHB+1 environment. Swashbuckler's have incentive to have a heightened CHA anyway, due to them adding CHA to initiative, and their 9th level feature being based in Charisma(Persuasion) checks. Paladins also have a lot of incentive to go for high CHA, but they are half-casters and more 'knight-in-shining-armour' than swashbucklers by default.
Yes, that would be the sucking up to a scimitar option. Jack Sparrow does not get his power from his sword. There should be some other option to play the charismatic martial than hexblade!

[Nerwen]

This wouldn't really add anything to single classed rogues - you still need high Dex for good AC with light armor. You can pretty easily afford a 14 Charisma with Point Buy, and that's plenty for the features you have that key off of charisma. Take expertise in your social skill of choice and you'll be better at it than just about everyone that doesn't have expertise, even if they're maxing charisma.

When I think of the dashing rogue, the powers go hand in hand (dashing and rogue). Sure, at build I can buy CHA. Then at ASI? It's going to DEX. Add to CHA is a waste for all my martial abilities and rogue skills. And yes that should be the norm for most martials but there should be a way to play the dashing rogue without having to resort to magic or being a dashing but inept rogue. Sure I could play a Hexblade/Swords Bard and be the dashing rogue character (and be way more powerful and versatile than any rogue could ever dream of, even with buffing) but I think there should be a non-magic way to achieve this. So when I add my +2 ASI to CHA for this one martial build it won't be a total waste (from the standpoint of building a rogue).

[Unoriginal]

Add to CHA is a waste for all my martial abilities and rogue skills.

This is incorrect. The Rogue skill list include every single CHA skill.


So when I add my +2 ASI to CHA for this one martial build it won't be a total waste (from the standpoint of building a rogue).

Many Rogue builds benefit from high CHA.

The Swashbuckler subclass is indeed the most direct way to benefit from it, however.

[CTurbo]

Cha is great for every Rogue and Paladin, and it's not a terrible 3rd stat for a Fighter. Some Fighter subclasses have Cha based features.

Cha is even better for Swashbucklers since it adds a boost to Initiative.

I HATE any feature that allows a mental stat to be used for attack bonuses and damage instead of Dex and Str. Yes that's pretty much Hexblade and Shillelagh. Hexblade is especially broken.

I DO like features that add mental stat bonuses to damage in addition to Str/Dex like Lifedrinker, Song of Victory, and Aura of Hate.

Swashbucklers do great with a single Sorcerer or Warlock dip for various reasons.

[da newt]

You can be as dashing and charismatic as you want, but it won't help you in real combat - sure Ali could talk some great smack and charm the pants off of anyone, but it was his dexterity and strength that made him a great fighter. Winning has almost nothing to do with wit and charm - you can be as clever and confident as you want but that doesn't help your sword arm and footwork function any better.

How could you justify a Hi CHA actually improving your combat prowess? I can't find a logical reason CHA is useful once the battle starts and folks are trading blows.

[Unoriginal]

You can be as dashing and charismatic as you want, but it won't help you in real combat - sure Ali could talk some great smack and charm the pants off of anyone, but it was his dexterity and strength that made him a great fighter. Winning has almost nothing to do with wit and charm - you can be as clever and confident as you want but that doesn't help your sword arm and footwork function any better.

How could you justify a Hi CHA actually improving your combat prowess? I can't find a logical reason CHA is useful once the battle starts and folks are trading blows.

This is D&D, not real combat. People can make fire erupt from their sword through the power of their mind, provided they trained for it.

Also, Ali did demonstrate how CHA is useful once blows are being traded. The famous Rumble in the Jungle went the way it did because Ali was able to infuriate Foreman into taking his bait and falling for the same trick again and again. The Rope-a-Dope requires agility, toughness and the kind of combat skills that come from practice and experience to pull off, but also enough manipulation prowess to make your foe mad and enough bluffing prowess to make them (and the people in their corner) believe their punches are working.

[sithlordnergal]

You can be as dashing and charismatic as you want, but it won't help you in real combat - sure Ali could talk some great smack and charm the pants off of anyone, but it was his dexterity and strength that made him a great fighter. Winning has almost nothing to do with wit and charm - you can be as clever and confident as you want but that doesn't help your sword arm and footwork function any better.

How could you justify a Hi CHA actually improving your combat prowess? I can't find a logical reason CHA is useful once the battle starts and folks are trading blows.

My suggestion...Look at Elan with Dashing Swordsman. X3

[Silly Name]

If ANY marital goes for CHA they get weaker.

Not increasing your To Hit/Damage bonus isn't "getting weaker". Not getting stronger is different from "getting weaker" - and even then, your ASI going towards Charisma doesn't mean you're not getting better at anything: you just temporarly gave more importance to the Social pillar of the game.


What do you think of allowing the swashbuckler to use CHA as the modifier for both to hit and damage? In all the martials there is pretty much no mechanical use for charisma. I want something like Inigo Montoya but RAW I have to choose between being a decent fighter and being charismatic. I want to have the force of personality influence the battlefield as it does in so many movies and I don't want to suck up to a scimitar to get it. Being charming should NOT require magic [my charm doesn't ;) ]. You would still need DEX for AC and skills, but investing in CHA would not feel like shooting yourself in the foot.

The Swashbuckler already uses Charisma effectively as part of their fighting style. You add it to your Initiative bonus, and eventually can use it to goad enemies and charm bystanders. And you don't really have to sacrifice much to have a decent Charisma bonus.

Want to build Inigo Montoya? Start like this: Rogue, Variant Human with the Skill Expert feat, Point Buy:

STR 10, DEX 16 (Racial +1), CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 16 (Racial +1, Skill Expert +1)

Go Swashbuckler Rogue up to level 12, using your ASIs to get DEX to 20 and CON to 16 - which already leaves you one ASI free to do with as you will: grab a feat, increase CHA or another stat? Go wild. Remaining 8 levels can go into Fighter, your pick of Battle Master, Cavalier or Samurai.

[JellyPooga]

I think there might be a bit of "Less than max = actually bad" creeping into the OP here. Just because your Charisma is "only" 14-16 and isn't contributing directly to your combat prowess doesn't mean you're a) not charismatic/charming or b) negatively impacting your ability to fight.

15/14/13/12/10/8 is standard array.
Typical Racial bknus is +2/+1

A "charming" Rogue (Swashbuckler or otherwise) will likely have an array along the lines of:
Str 8
Dex 14+2
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 13
Cha 15+1

Just because you leave Cha in the proverbial dust of that 14-16 area (which is decent enough as a *primary* stat all the way up to Tier 3) doesn't mean you've negatively impacted your Dex or combat ability as a whole and (at least as a Swashbuckler) is offering solid combat boons, setting aside the primary purpose of Charisma's non-combat application.

Never forget that combat is only one aspect of the game and especially so for the Rogue who really only shines outside of combat (if, at least, you understand the niche that Rogue fills; many don't, treating them like a lightly armoured Fighter and left wondering why they're paling by comparison and not having any fun with it).

[RogueJK]

I want something like Inigo Montoya but RAW I have to choose between being a decent fighter and being charismatic. I want to have the force of personality influence the battlefield as it does in so many movies and I don't want to suck up to a scimitar to get it. Being charming should NOT require magic [my charm doesn't ;) ]. You would still need DEX for AC and skills, but investing in CHA would not feel like shooting yourself in the foot.

Easily done as-is with a Swashbuckler Rogue or Swords Bard. Either one is already going to be focusing on both DEX and CHA for reasons other than just skills, will be an effective DEX-based melee combatant, and will have plenty of Expertises to further boost their Face skills.


But don't get so locked into just looking at CHA alone... As an alternative, consider a Fey Wanderer Ranger (or a Samurai Fighter at higher levels) as as "charismatic fighter". These two subclasses can leverage WIS for Face skills in lieu of a high CHA (although the Samurai doesn't get that ability until Level 7 instead of 3, and it only applies to Persuasion).

In the case of the Ranger, you already have a reason to be investing in WIS (Ranger spellcasting), so you're not having to become even more MAD by adding on another stat to focus on with CHA. The Fighter similarly already benefits from investing in WIS, since WIS save-or-suck effects are one of the quickest way to shut down a fighter, so a Samurai investing in WIS - plus the Samurai's eventual WIS save proficiency - shores up one of the Fighter's big weaknesses.

The Ranger also already gets access to one Expertise via Canny, and can easily grab another via the Skill Expert half feat. So you can build a traditional Ranger with a high DEX and WIS, invest a little bit in additional CHA without going too crazy, take Expertise in a Face skill or two, and be off to the races with a capable DEX-based martial who's also a competent Face with nothing more than a 10 or 12 CHA.

Something like this:
Inigo Montoya
VHuman Fey Wanderer Ranger 5
STR 8
DEX 15+1
CON 13+1
INT 8
WIS 15
CHA 12
ASIs: Skill Expert (16 WIS, Intimidation Proficiency and Expertise) at Level 1, 18 DEX at Level 4
Racial Skill: Persuasion (with Expertise from Canny at Ranger 1)
Class Skills: Stealth, Acrobatics
Subclass Skill: Deception
Background Skills: Insight, Perception

You have +5 to Intimidation and Persuasion right out the gate at Level 1, adding on +3 from WIS starting at Ranger 3 when you pick up the Fey Wanderer subclass and gain Otherworldly Glamour.

This Level 5 example build is sitting at +10 to Persuasion and Intimidation, +7 to Deception, and +6 to Insight. Thus you have all your Face skills covered, despite only having a 12 CHA. And you're a competent Rapier wielder thanks to your high DEX, Extra Attack, shield proficiency, and ability to buff yourself via 1st and 2nd level Ranger spells.


A Samurai build takes a while longer to come online, and can only add WIS to Persuasion alone rather than all CHA skills, but could look something like this:
Inigo Montoya
VHuman Samurai Fighter 7
STR 8
DEX 15+1
CON 13+1
INT 8
WIS 15
CHA 12
ASIs: Skill Expert (16 WIS, Persuasion Proficiency and Expertise) at Level 1, Piercer (17 DEX) at Level 4, Resilient DEX (18 DEX) at Level 6
Racial Skill: Deception
Class Skills: Perception, Acrobatics
Subclass Skill: Insight
Background Skills: Stealth, Intimidation

You have +5 to Persuasion starting at Level 1, and this Level 7 example build is looking at +10 to Persuasion, despite only having a 12 CHA.

[arnin77]

When most casters go for CHA they get stronger. If ANY marital goes for CHA they get weaker. What do you think of allowing the swashbuckler to use CHA as the modifier for both to hit and damage? In all the martials there is pretty much no mechanical use for charisma. I want something like Inigo Montoya but RAW I have to choose between being a decent fighter and being charismatic. I want to have the force of personality influence the battlefield as it does in so many movies and I don't want to suck up to a scimitar to get it. Being charming should NOT require magic [my charm doesn't ;) ]. You would still need DEX for AC and skills, but investing in CHA would not feel like shooting yourself in the foot.

What level is your Swashbuckler? I got mine to level 9 and just picked up Panache. I have expertise in Persuasion and you can use Panache for some battlefield control as well as charming non-hostiles if you share a language.

At level 9 I have 14 charisma but +10 in persuasion because of expertise; at level 11 my min roll would be 23 (+2 charisma at level 10)

If you wanted more you could get experitse in deception, intimidation and performance as well instead of the dex skills. All this can be done with 20 dex ( or even 18 really - you could have your charisma higher...) so you are still efficient in combat - plus any boosts to charisma help your initiative after level 3 (edited)

I hope you figure something out :)

[Mastikator]

A single level of fighter allows your swashbuckler to pick up a shield and take the duelist fighting style (which adds damage faster than sneak attack for a single level). Other than that I pretty much agree with @JellyPooga and @RogueJK.
The feat skill expert allows you to grab another expertise, you could be expert in all 3 cha skills, making you hella charming.

[tw0jaye]

It for sure depends on both the player and the table how flexible you are with flavouring, but mechanically, a single hexblade dip does exactly what you asked for, and hexblade's curse even fits super well for your "My name is Inigo Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die!" moment(s).

[Dualight]

so a high dex + charisma (+ alert) would have you acting first a lot (especially after level 11 since initiative is techincally a skill check i believe?)


Reliable Talent only applies if you add your proficiency bonus to an Ability check, but a Harengon Swashbuckler does, in fact, get a minimum Initiative check of 10+DEX+CHA+PB(+potential another 5 from Alert and perhaps also other bonuses). If there are ways of adding your full PB to Initiative other than playing a Harengon those would also make Reliable Talent apply to Initiative checks, although I am not aware of any such abilities.

[arnin77]

Reliable Talent only applies if you add your proficiency bonus to an Ability check, but a Harengon Swashbuckler does, in fact, get a minimum Initiative check of 10+DEX+CHA+PB(+potential another 5 from Alert and perhaps also other bonuses). If there are ways of adding your full PB to Initiative other than playing a Harengon those would also make Reliable Talent apply to Initiative checks, although I am not aware of any such abilities.

(I think I was confusing it with Jack of all Trades adding to initiative, thank you! I edited my comment)

[Tawmis]

When most casters go for CHA they get stronger. If ANY marital goes for CHA they get weaker. What do you think of allowing the swashbuckler to use CHA as the modifier for both to hit and damage? In all the martials there is pretty much no mechanical use for charisma. I want something like Inigo Montoya but RAW I have to choose between being a decent fighter and being charismatic. I want to have the force of personality influence the battlefield as it does in so many movies and I don't want to suck up to a scimitar to get it. Being charming should NOT require magic [my charm doesn't ;) ]. You would still need DEX for AC and skills, but investing in CHA would not feel like shooting yourself in the foot.

With your DM's approval, you could flavor it as your character is using their charisma (talking during battle) to "disengage" the enemy and throw them off.

"What hope have you of ever besting me?" doing swish with the rapier "I've cut down more men then all the lumber it took to build this horrible town! En garde!"
clash clash clash
"Please! You begin to bore me. Shall I end this fight now?"

That type of stuff.

So using charisma rather than dexterity to make your attacks.

I'd say you would need to RP it to justify it (from time to time at least).