Dexterity feats for martials

[Nerwen]

I looked through a list of 'official' feats. There is only one non-racial feat that gives +1 to DEX and is useful to martial builds: Skill Expert (Competent is the same thing). Don't have any use for skills (barbar), there are two situational feats: Piercer and Slasher. Those are nice EXCEPT (big except) if the amazing legendary magic item does Slashing or Piercing (respectively) or bludgeoning for either, either the feat or the item will be less useful than a single sheet of single ply wet toilet paper. That's it. Them's your choices. If you were a caster and needed DEX, there's lots of options that are redundant or useless to martials. In fact, not only is Skill Expert more beneficial to some casters than most martials (Bard), there are four other feats with +1 DEX and are basically for casters only (Light Armor, Medium Armor [which means you can't use DEX], Resilient [DEX obviously, which martials already have], and Weapon Master [someone must want this feat somehow]. BTW any caster who uses a weapon would find Piercer and Slasher just as useful as a martial so casters who care about DEX have 7 choices vs 3 for martials who live by it. DEX IS CRITICAL TO MOST MARTIAL BUILDS AND TO NO CASTER BUILDS!!!!!!!). Of course as a caster you will probably steer more towards the staggering number of feats that raise your casting ability +1 and give you really cool stuff to augment your class and make you even more powerful and awesome! (and that are of no use to martials)

Sigh.

Why does WOTC hate martial classes? Oh, and my main question: Is there any homebrew fixes for this?

So, when you are building a martial, it is important for bureaucratic reasons to make DEX an even number at character creation unless you A. want Skill Expert, Piercer and Slasher or B. have another odd numbered ability that needs a +1. Otherwise you are giving up half your feat/ASI. The imbalance in this is quite large. Why are there not a ton of feats that do this kind of thing (or other cool martially things or even better martially things linked to non-martially things!) BUT limited to the martial classes? ("Sorry, you need martial training just like using spells requires spell training")

[KorvinStarmast]

Why does WOTC hate martial classes?

Because they are Wizards of the Coast, not Warriors of the Coast. It is useful for me to recall, sometimes, that their first successful game was called Magic: the Gathering, not Melee: the Battling

[Nerwen]

Because they are Wizards of the Coast, not Warriors of the Coast. It is useful for me to recall, sometimes, that their first successful game was called Magic: the Gathering, not Melee: the BattlingA pox on me for a silly cur. It should be obvious to me. :biggrin:

[Unoriginal]

Don't have any use for skills (barbar)

Why would a Barbarian not have any use for skills?

Skill Expert is a great feat for Barbarians.

My Barbarian having Skill Expert saved the life of our group's Warlock when he grappled the Demon who was the dungeon's boss. And having more skill proficiencies is always great.


In fact, not only is Skill Expert more beneficial to some casters than most martials (Bard)

This is incorrect.



Medium Armor [which means you can't use DEX]

This is incorrect. Medium armors let you add your DEX bonus to AC up to 15 DEX.



Resilient [DEX obviously, which martials already have]

This is incorrect. Most martials do not have DEX save proficiency.


BTW any caster who uses a weapon would find Piercer and Slasher just as useful as a martial

This is incorrect. Martials benefit more from feats linked to a weapon because they are better at using the weapon than casters. Even casters who use weapons.



DEX IS CRITICAL TO MOST MARTIAL BUILDS AND TO NO CASTER BUILDS!!!!!!!

This is incorrect.


Furthermore, you forgot the following feats:

-Athlete

-Elven Accuracy

-Fade Away

-Gunner

-Second Chance

-Squat Nimbleness



So, when you are building a martial, it is important for bureaucratic reasons to make DEX an even number at character creation unless you A. want Skill Expert, Piercer and Slasher or B. have another odd numbered ability that needs a +1.

Most methods of character creation are likely to leave you with at least one odd number in your stat, even after applying racial modifiers.

But no, you do not need to have an even number at character creation, as (as you note) the character will receive ASI as they grow in level.


The imbalance in this is quite large.

This is incorrect.



Why are there not a ton of feats that do this kind of thing (or other cool martially things or even better martially things linked to non-martially things!) BUT limited to the martial classes? ("Sorry, you need martial training just like using spells requires spell training")

Most feats are class-independent by design choice. Feats that let you use spells let you use spell regardless of your class, feats that grant you martial prowess do the same.

I think the only two feats that require a specific caster class feature are from the Tasha's,

[JellyPooga]

There's also Athlete, which isn't exactly a power-feat but isn't too shabby on the likes of a Barbarian or Fighter that's planning on doing much running, jumping or climbing trees.

That aside, you can easily turn this argument on its head; why does WotC hate spellcasters soooo much? Hardly any of their non-stat-boosting feats are worth a damn. Yeah, sure, there's War Caster, which is practically a prerequisite for Clerics but after that the pickings are slim. Elemental Adept? Psh, don't want to lock into a blaster build with one trick. Spell Sniper? Who really cares about range anyway and virtually no-one uses the rules for cover, right? Besides, real casters use AoE control anyway. Compared to Martials who have Crossbow Expert, Great Weapon Master, Mobile, Polearm Master, Sentinel, Sharpshooter, Shield Master, Skulker and Tough. That's like 9 whole feats compared to the casters one and that doesn't even account for the ones that are more niche, like Dungeon Delver (because let's face it, if anyone takes it, it'll be a martial character; casters have spells for that stuff) or Tavern Brawler, or anything outside the PHB. What's a Caster supposed to do when their casting stat is odd? Take Keen Mind? :smalltongue:

Methinks you perceive a problem that really isn't there, or at best is predicated on build-entitlement rather than any other factor. So what if your Dex is odd? Bump it by +2 with that ASI. What difference does it make if it's increasing from 12-to-14 or 13-to-15? Yes, there's some options that mean you might get something extra, like Dex Save proficiency as well as your Dex mod increase by taking Resilient, but at the end of the day, choices are not there to all be equal but to force you to metaphysically negotiate between a little give and a little take. So what if your only choice to bump your +1 Dex mod to +2 is by taking Resilient? The net benefit of gaining Dex Save proficiency is probably going to be better than taking the +2 Dex ASI.

[KorvinStarmast]

A pox on me for a silly cur. It should be obvious to me. :biggrin:
I think that a dex feat would be very hard to balance. Why? The super stat problem.

Dex is in 5e a bit of a "super stat" ~ it provides+ to AC, is a common save, and for ranged (and certain melee) attacks adds to hit and to damage.

The "superstate" nature of Dex has been covered in this set of forums for a long time).
This aspect may inform the scarcity of Dex-based feats: the devs grok the superstat nature of Dex.

[JackPhoenix]

What's a Caster supposed to do when their casting stat is odd? Take Keen Mind? :smalltongue:

Hey, don't diss my favorite feat!

Seriously, I've seen more people I've played with take Keen Mind (even on non-casters, or non-Int casters) than any other feat.

[Kane0]

Oh, and my main question: Is there any homebrew fixes for this?


I've reworked the entire feat list so that none are half feats, and martial ASIs are 50% better than the ones casters get (as in they get 3 stat points, or 1 and a feat).


Furthermore, you forgot the following feats:

-Athlete
-Elven Accuracy
-Fade Away
-Gunner
-Second Chance
-Squat Nimbleness

They did say non-racial half feats that give +1 dex. So just Athlete and Gunner, where the former is not particularly great and the latter is reliant on guns being a thing.

[Dualight]

It has to be said that Gunner is better than Crossbow Expert for any build that relies on ranged attack rolls without using a crossbow, as both feats negate the disadvantage from making ranged attack rolls when an enemy is within 5 feet of you, but Gunner also adds +1 DEX, even if you never touch a gun, while Crossbow Expert's other effects only apply when using a crossbow, and even require you to use a light crossbow specifically to get the most out of it.

[Amnestic]

Slashing is possibly the most common weapon damage type for melee with regards to magic weapons (thanks swords!) and Piercer for ranged (with a fair bit of melee in daggers/rapiers too), so those're always going to see use.
Skill Expert is great on any character, barbarians included.
Neither Barbs nor Fighters get dex save proficiency, so Resilient can find a slot there if they need it (though I'd tend towards putting that feat in Resilient Wis instead usually).

Could there be more Dex Half-feats? Sure, maybe. I think the armour prof feats might be worth more if multiclassing isn't on the table (though I'd be hard pressed to find a situation where I'd want Lightly Armored as it's currently written).

To turn it around on the OP, want gaps in the half-feat area do you think are lacking for Dex?

[Leon]

Skill Expert (Competent is the same thing). Don't have any use for skills (barbar),

DEX IS CRITICAL TO MOST MARTIAL BUILDS AND TO NO CASTER BUILDS!!!!!!!).

Skills are as useful to a Barb as anyone else (if i was inclined to run 5e, i have everyone have the choice of Skilled among a few others as a free feat at level one)
second point there, you a lil too fixated on the "build" over having a well rounded character, Dex is useful but not critical unless your focusing on it for Ranged combat or Finesse.

[titi]

EXCEPT (big except) if the amazing legendary magic item does Slashing or Piercing (respectively) or bludgeoning for either, either the feat or the item will be less useful than a single sheet of single ply wet toilet paper.

If the amazing magical item you get does not go well with the way you built your character, you can ask your DM if it could be possible to have something of equal power but that works better with you. Most DM will do it anyway, so no it not a big except

[Psyren]

If the existing half-feats aren't doing it for you, see if your DM will allow the playtest ones for 5.5e as all the 4th-level feats are half-feats there.

Even if they don't though, Skill Expert is great, and you can build around Slasher and Piercer.

[DarknessEternal]

Dex is already by far the best attribute.