Thoughts on my last combat (polymorph)

[Glarnog]

My group were fighting a Spirit Naga. It had 10 or so charmed base humans attack us too. My wizard hit it with polymorph and it fails. I pick rat. The DM isn't happy that one save was all the defense it got. I tried to say it was a gamble on my part, etc. Most of the rest of characters knock out several of the charmed thralls. The halfling rogue goes to pick up the rat. The DM makes it a grapple check. The rogue fails. (Str vs dex.) So on the Naga's turn DM makes an int check, total of 12. Has the rat run into some nearby flames. It takes minor damage and reverts. Then the DM has it take an action and casts a spell, since it has only used it's movement.

I kind of feel based on the spell even a smart rat won't run in to a fire, or be able to connect those dots. It feels like a cheap meta way to invalidate the spell landing. And while just picking the rat up may not be the right choice, grappling seemed too strict. However if there is a next time, we'll try to get the champion or a str based too pick up a rat.

I'd appreciate thoughts and advice.
Thanks

[MarkVIIIMarc]

My group were fighting a Spirit Naga. It had 10 or so charmed base humans attack us too. My wizard hit it with polymorph and it fails. I pick rat. The DM isn't happy that one save was all the defense it got. I tried to say it was a gamble on my part, etc. Most of the rest of characters knock out several of the charmed thralls. The halfling rogue goes to pick up the rat. The DM makes it a grapple check. The rogue fails. (Str vs dex.) So on the Naga's turn DM makes an int check, total of 12. Has the rat run into some nearby flames. It takes minor damage and reverts. Then the DM has it take an action and casts a spell, since it has only used it's movement.

I kind of feel based on the spell even a smart rat won't run in to a fire, or be able to connect those dots. It feels like a cheap meta way to invalidate the spell landing. And while just picking the rat up may not be the right choice, grappling seemed too strict. However if there is a next time, we'll try to get the champion or a str based too pick up a rat.

I'd appreciate thoughts and advice.
Thanks

I agree but think it is within the realm of reason fair.

Consider when my Bard uses Polymorph on our fighter to get us a T Rex that is smart enough to know friend human from enemy.

Next the question becomes is the Naga smart enough to know about the spell. It is a potentially ancient spellcaster so I say DC 10 or 15 is a reasonable check.

But yeah, not super fun to watch your big spell get nerfed. Get a bag of devouring and pick a red eared slider next time!

[sithlordnergal]

I mean, DM shouldn't get annoyed...but the other stuff seems ok. Running into a fire seems kind of odd, but at the same time, I could see a player making an argument to do it. And I have a general rule of that if a player does it, its fair game for the NPCs.

The Grapple check was 100% justified. You wanna pick up/grab a creature that doesn't want to be picked up/grabbed, Grapple check. And they're always a Strength (Athletics) check versus a Dexterity or Strength Check.

Were I the DM, the only thing I might not have done is run into the fire. But I might have had one of the charmed humans harm the rat instead. Though that heavily depends on how the charm was set up.

[Waazraath]

Grapple seems fair, I think that's the relevant parts of the rules for "trying to grab and hold another creature". As for running into the fire after realizing that counters the spell: that's a DM call imo. I don't think there are clear rules on what exactly you can or can't do with a specific int score. Given the lack of rules for that, an Int check (with a -4 due to the rat's int) at least doesn't seem unfair. I can imagine it sucks though, especially if it doesn't even cost it the Naga's action.

[Gignere]

Next time change it into a gold fish. The creature suffocates and has no land speed. Suffocating bypasses hp damage so the creature doesn’t revert until it is dead.

[Glarnog]

It feels like a loss of a turn at least would have been appropriate.

I get a little confused by having the mental abilities of the form but keeping alignment and personality. I read that as think like a rat. Not being picked up by foes, sure. But knowing fire will turn it back in to an immortal snake wizard?

A friendly trex knowing to fight it's enemies seems to make sense to me. Knowing friends and foes seems to be related to personality. But things much more complicated?

But great replies. Thank you

[Glarnog]

Gig, is that legit? In this case there were 2 big pools nearby I didn't want the naga escaping in to. But wow that is amazing. Will definitely get a book thrown at me next time. :)

Ty

[sithlordnergal]

Yeah, it gets a bit weird...As I said, were I the DM the only thing I wouldn't have done is have the rat run into the flames. But in exchange I'd have had one of the Human serving it harm the Rat in place of the Fire. Heck, I may have had one of the Humans the Rat knows is an ally pick it up and toss it into the fire, effectively getting the same end result.

Though that would have been heavily dependent on the enchantment they were under.


EDIT:


Gig, is that legit? In this case there were 2 big pools nearby I didn't want the naga escaping in to. But wow that is amazing. Will definitely get a book thrown at me next time. :)

Ty

Mmmm, its a bit janky. You're basically using the Suffocating rules to kill the creature via Polymorph. The issue is that the rules for Suffocating state "At the start of its next turn, it drops to 0 hit points and is dying, and it can’t regain hit points or be stabilized until it can breathe again.", while Polymorph states "The spell has no effect on a shapechanger or a creature with 0 hit points.", which means it stops working the second you reach 0 Hit Points.

So the question becomes which happens first? Are you dying before you revert, or do you revert before you start dying? If you are dying before you revert back to normal, then it works, and you can instantly kill a creature. If you revert before dying, then you're fine, because you can breathe again. Its basically up to the DM.


That said, there is still value in turning a target into a fish. You just need a different fish. If you really, really want to disable an enemy without worry about jank, DM rulings, or a DM doing something like running into a fire to turn them back, I highly suggest turning your target into a Killer Whale. They now have 0 Movement speed, a 5ft reach, too much HP to instantly end the spell, only a 5ft reach with a +6 attack, and they don't suffocate. This completely disables the target, and unless the DM wants to eat through 90 HP with the NPCs, then there's nothing they can do.

After which you can kill any NPCs, heal up a bit since Ploymorph lasts an hour, set up a Leomund's Tiny Hut for protection, and kill the polymorphed target at your leisure...as long as its within 1 hour.

[Waazraath]

Gig, is that legit? In this case there were 2 big pools nearby I didn't want the naga escaping in to. But wow that is amazing. Will definitely get a book thrown at me next time. :)

Ty

No of course it's not. See suffocating rules. https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/The%20Environment#content

It starts its turn, 0 hp and dying, 0hp triggers polymorph to end, dying stops. This is one of those "tricks" way beyond RAW and RAI which makes spells much stronger than they actually are, but hey, that's what we want cause then we can fill another dozen threads on 'casters being too powerful'.

[Segev]

I recommend "quipper" for the next time you want to do this. The creature immediately begins suffocating and has no land speed with which to run into inconvenient sources of damage. Suffication will not reduce your hp to 0 in 5e. It just kills you.

[Amnestic]

Consider a snail instead of a rat.

Same sort of situation, but a lot less movement.


I recommend "quipper" for the next time you want to do this. The creature immediately begins suffocating and has no land speed with which to run into inconvenient sources of damage. Suffication will not reduce your hp to 0 in 5e. It just kills you.



Suffocating
A creature can hold its breath for a number of minutes equal to 1 + its Constitution modifier (minimum of 30 seconds).

When a creature runs out of breath or is choking, it can survive for a number of rounds equal to its Constitution modifier (minimum of 1 round). At the start of its next turn, it drops to 0 hit points and is dying, and it can’t regain hit points or be stabilized until it can breathe again.

For example, a creature with a Constitution of 14 can hold its breath for 3 minutes. If it starts suffocating, it has 2 rounds to reach air before it drops to 0 hit points.

As noted above: if you polymorph into a fish, it starts choking, suffocates after however many rounds, and then immediately reverts because it drops to 0hp, ending the polymorph (and since it ends the polymorph, its HP goes back up to what it was before, ending the dying).

[JNAProductions]

I recommend "quipper" for the next time you want to do this. The creature immediately begins suffocating and has no land speed with which to run into inconvenient sources of damage. Suffication will not reduce your hp to 0 in 5e. It just kills you.

That's not how it works. It explicitly drops you to 0.

[sithlordnergal]

I recommend "quipper" for the next time you want to do this. The creature immediately begins suffocating and has no land speed with which to run into inconvenient sources of damage. Suffication will not reduce your hp to 0 in 5e. It just kills you.

No, they changed it.



Suffocating

A creature can hold its breath for a number of minutes equal to 1 + its Constitution modifier (minimum of 30 seconds).

When a creature runs out of breath or is choking, it can survive for a number of rounds equal to its Constitution modifier (minimum of 1 round). At the start of its next turn, it drops to 0 hit points and is dying, and it can’t regain hit points or be stabilized until it can breathe again.

For example, a creature with a Constitution of 14 can hold its breath for 3 minutes. If it starts suffocating, it has 2 rounds to reach air before it drops to 0 hit points.

You drop to 0 HP and start dying, its not like Disintegrate or Power Word Kill.

That said, turning your target into a Killer Whale will remove them from combat for an hour. 90 HP is a lot to chew through, and a Kill Whale can't do anything on land.

[Segev]

Ah! Darn it. I thought that was a 3e-ism. My error.

Okay, turn him into a quipper anyway; it'll buy you a few rounds. Or into a dolphin or other air-breathing aquatic creature.

[sithlordnergal]

Ah! Darn it. I thought that was a 3e-ism. My error.

Okay, turn him into a quipper anyway; it'll buy you a few rounds. Or into a dolphin or other air-breathing aquatic creature.

Yeah, it'd only work if you also had Power Word Kill of Disintegrate.

That said, my go-to Polymorph is a Killer Whale when you need to disable a creature. Only CR 3, so it'll work on anything big that you need to remove, has 90 HP so it can take a lot of hits before it changes back, and still has the benefit of 0 Movement and a 5ft Reach. Only downside is that its Huge. But that should be ok in most situations.

[Segev]

Yeah, it'd only work if you also had Power Word Kill of Disintegrate.

That said, my go-to Polymorph is a Killer Whale when you need to disable a creature. Only CR 3, so it'll work on anything big that you need to remove, has 90 HP so it can take a lot of hits before it changes back, and still has the benefit of 0 Movement and a 5ft Reach. Only downside is that its Huge. But that should be ok in most situations.

Excellent choice, yeah.


I should look at my "expanded bear" post again, and come up with more expanded beasts to give more higher-CR polymorph options.

[Gignere]

Consider a snail instead of a rat.

Same sort of situation, but a lot less movement.






As noted above: if you polymorph into a fish, it starts choking, suffocates after however many rounds, and then immediately reverts because it drops to 0hp, ending the polymorph (and since it ends the polymorph, its HP goes back up to what it was before, ending the dying).

Ending polymorph doesn’t end the dying condition though. That’s the RAW why it works. Nothing said you can’t die above 0 hps in fact there are effects that can kill you above 0 hps.

[Segev]

Ending polymorph doesn’t end the dying condition though. That’s the RAW why it works. Nothing said you can’t die above 0 hps in fact there are effects that can kill you above 0 hps.

The thing is, you end the suffocating at that point, because the native form can breathe.

[sithlordnergal]

Ending polymorph doesn’t end the dying condition though. That’s the RAW why it works. Nothing said you can’t die above 0 hps in fact there are effects that can kill you above 0 hps.

That becomes a really shaky argument, as the only thing that I can think of that auto-kills you above 0 HP is Power Word Kill. Additionally, you only drop to 0 if/when you can't breathe. You'd need to be unable to breathe after reverting back to your normal form in order to drop to 0 again. So shoving a rat into a Bag of Holding would work, or putting one into a chest or an air-tight object would work.

[Gignere]

The thing is, you end the suffocating at that point, because the native form can breathe.

Yes but all that does is stabilize it based on the RAW from suffocating.

[JackPhoenix]

Yes but all that does is stabilize it based on the RAW from suffocating.

Stabilization only matters if you have 0 hp. The native form does not have 0 hp upon reverting, so there's no need for it to stabilize, as the dying rules don't apply in the first place. The polymorphed form stopped existing when it hit 0 hp, and the native form wasn't suffocating.

[da newt]

D&D needs stats for things like a barnacle or giant clam ...

[greenstone]

Running into a fire seems kind of odd, but at the same time, I could see a player making an argument to do it. And I have a general rule of that if a player does it, its fair game for the NPCs.

I have seen a player do this, arguing quite loudly with the GM that their polymorphed character has enough brains to know they've been polymorphed and what to do about it, so I agree it is certianly fair for a GM to do it.

[Corran]

@OP: Levels and characters of the pcs present in this fight? I am curious to guess what the DM was thinking. Because I see that they thought of having pools around, but spirit nagas are very fragile, so I mostly want to see what kind of nova your group is packing (if polymorph was such a surprise then I suppose not much).

ps: Nice thinking to use polymorph btw (especially if the naga's control over its minions was handwaved not to require concentration, cause then it could have hold person'd you all and it wouldn't be pretty if the minions could do decent damage collectivelly. I'd easily have the naga jump into the fire. They are spellcasters and shapechanging is not something they wouldn't know about. But I'd be very hesitant to make the naga an easy target (maybe your DM didn't either, maybe you earned the opportunity to target it with polymorph).

[Monster Manuel]

I have seen a player do this, arguing quite loudly with the GM that their polymorphed character has enough brains to know they've been polymorphed and what to do about it, so I agree it is certianly fair for a GM to do it.

I've never liked the "retain your personality and alignment" wording, it's too vague. The way I rule it, and I think this is rules-as-intended, is that the target retains their MEMORIES. Most of what they remember is a rush of bewildering nonsense, given the reduced cognitive abilities of the polymorphed form. But, they remember that they were a naga, before, and remembers things that happened to it. Chances are good that an ancient spellcasting monster has had some memorable encounters with shape changing magic before. It doesn't understand why, but it remembers one time it was changed into a toad and when it fell onto a fire it hurt for a sec but then changed back.

I think giving the rat an Arcana roll with the Naga's proficiency but the rat's int modifier to recall that detail would be fair. I would also have given the PCs a round or two where the rat tried to psyche itself up to burn itself alive, even remembering how it worked last time. Let the player's good tactics mean something.

[Glarnog]

@Corran, this is our original 5e starter box group. We recently dusted it off after a more than 3 year break. Took us hours to start to get back in the swing of things. I definitely picked my last round of level up spells poorly.

2 players. One with a rogue and cleric both 11th. The other player has a 11th wizard, 9th champion, and a flesh golem.

The wiz usually saves polymorph for party buff or utility. He didn't want to wall of force the naga thinking it would be overkill. Wizard wanted to try to save as many thralls as possible. His party can be quite blood thirsty.

We had no idea how fragile the naga was. It had already taken a round from the rogue and golem. If we had just taken the licks from the thralls and poured more damage in to the naga, it is likely to have never survived to the next round. Wizard is also still unsure how it's immortality works. Will it reform out of nothing? Does the body self resurrect? Also worried about leaving evidence of it being killed behind.

The DM rocks. Though usually we are playing zero level OSR style dungeon crawls.

This was pretty much our 2nd combat. So we are still tuning up. : ) We are also worried about spell usage do to not wanting to rest while in this dungeon.

[KorvinStarmast]

I've never liked the "retain your personality and alignment" wording, it's too vague.
I like it, since it offers more flexibility in how to apply it. You are still you is how Crawford puts it, and I find that answer to be sufficient.


The way I rule it, and I think this is rules-as-intended, is that the target retains their MEMORIES. Most of what they remember is a rush of bewildering nonsense, given the reduced cognitive abilities of the polymorphed form. But, they remember that they were a naga, before, and remembers things that happened to it. Chances are good that an ancient spellcasting monster has had some memorable encounters with shape changing magic before. It doesn't understand why, but it remembers one time it was changed into a toad and when it fell onto a fire it hurt for a sec but then changed back. I like your take on this. With the giant ape example that we have used a few times in your campaigns, the INT 7 allows for a bit more leeway in memory, but there are still some degredations/confusion possible).

I think giving the rat an Arcana roll with the Naga's proficiency but the rat's int modifier to recall that detail would be fair. I would also have given the PCs a round or two where the rat tried to psyche itself up to burn itself alive, even remembering how it worked last time. Let the player's good tactics mean something. Yeah, good call, I am keeping that for my next stint as DM. Polymorph gets used here and there by my players.
The DM rocks. Though usually we are playing zero level OSR style dungeon crawls. Fun, and yes, that style is conducive to "I expend my spells only when I really need to" as an approach.

[Phhase]

Fun fact: I'm pretty sure that Divine Word + Polymorph is an instant kill though, since Divine Word is a save or just die effect (And a rat has trash charisma).