Infiltrator Armourer / Soulknife Multiclass - What did I miss?

[Jaganshi Pinion]

Still new to 5e, completed a 1-shot with no encounters, currently playing another one shot that was intended to go 2 sessions, going on the 4th next week. All with the same DM.

DM seems to be excited to try a Curse of Strahd campaign (no spoilers please, but I've heard it's a TPK-king), and I was curious to if I'm building a character which would be sustainable.

Starting gear:
Explorer's Pack / Burglar's Pack
Thieve's Tools
Light Crossbow (20 bolts)
Studded Leather
Shield

Point Buy ability scores:
STR - 8
DEX - 15 (+1)
CON - 14
INT - 13 (+1)
WIS - 12
CHA - 10

Better distribution of points

Feat: Crossbow Expert

1 - 6: Character setup

1 - Rogue 1
---- 10 HP ; 17AC ; +3 initiative
Crossbow with sneak attack - +5 to hit, 2d6 +3 damage.
Crossbow regular - +5 to hit, 1d6 +3 damage

2 - Artificer 1
Cantrips: Mage Hand (30' ; 1m) ; Spare the Dying / Mending (salvaging bolts)
Spells: Absorb Elements (reaction) ; Cure Wounds ; Faerie Fire (60' ; up to 1m)

---- Crossbow with sneak attack - +5 to hit, 2d6 +3 damage.
Crossbow regular - +5 to hit, 1d6 +3 damage

3 - Artificer 2
Infusions: Repeating Shot ; Goggles of the Night
---- Crossbow with sneak attack - +6 to hit, 2d6 +4 damage.
Crossbow regular - +6 to hit, 1d6 +4 damage

4 - Artificer 3 - Armourer: Infiltrator. I want to reflavour as using the lenses from the Goggle of Night on the helmet to turn on Darkvision as a bonus action. I also want to use the gem on the tip of the pointer finger, and to turn it on you have to toggle a switch at the base of the finger. Then I have to finger-gun at opponents (spirt gun nostalgia). Magic Missle (120') ; Thunderwave (Self 15' ; CON saving throw) added to known spells.

---- Lightning Launcher (first hit) with sneak attack - +5 to hit, 3d6 +3 damage
Lighting Launcher (no sneak / second hit) - +5 to hit, 1d6 +3 damage
Crossbow with sneak attack - +6 to hit, 2d6 +4 damage.
Crossbow regular - +6 to hit, 1d6 +4 damage

5 - Rogue 2: Cunning Action

---- Lightning Launcher (first hit) with sneak attack - +6 to hit, 3d6 +3 damage
Lighting Launcher (no sneak / second hit) - +6 to hit, 1d6 +3 damage
Crossbow with sneak attack - +7 to hit, 2d6 +4 damage.
Crossbow regular - +7 to hit, 1d6 +4 damage

6 - Sneak Attack becomes 2d6. Steady Aim (bonus action) competes with Cunning Action and additional crossbow / knife. SoulKnife. The hope here is to be a hands-free character at this point (shield excluded). Discuss reflavouring the knives as by default they're bland and will always just be a 1d6 and 1d4 bonus action. They never gain any bonus' (can't become magical (+1, +2, etc), can't affix infusions) anyway and the fact that you need both hands free sucks since the dagger dissapears on hit / miss. Suggest receiving the benefits of Crossbow Expert on the knives and you can throw both from one hand since they disappear on hit / miss anyway. You can offer the bonus action to be a d4 instead of an additional d6 in exchage to have the weaker one available for opportunity attacks (1d4 + damage modifiers is better than 0), else character gets opportunity attacks at 12 / 14 (war caster feat). Assuming yes, move the switch over to the dominant hand, then you have an offensive hand and a shield hand. Remove 'Repeating Shot' infusion and choose Enhanced Defence (either armour or shield). Or just continue using the crossbow. Whatever.

---- Lightning Launcher (first hit) with sneak attack - +6 to hit, 4d6 +3 damage
Lighting Launcher (no sneak / second hit) - +6 to hit, 1d6 +3 damage
SoulKnife with sneak attack - +6 to hit, 3d6 +3 damage
SoulKnife [Extra Attack / BA] - +6 to hit, 1d4 +3 damage

7 - 10: Damage scale.
7: Armourer 4: DEX +2 (Feather Fall)
8: Armourer 5: Extra Attack, 2nd lvl spell slots (Mirror Image, Shatter, and Web / Spider Climb available)
9: SoulKnife 4: Sharpshooter
10: Armourer 6: 3rd infusion (Goggles of Night, Radiant Weapon, Spell-Refueling Ring)

Assuming I can math, at lvl 10:
---- Lightning Launcher (first hit) with sneak attack - +8 to hit, 4d6 +5 damage
Lighting Launcher (no sneak / second hit) - +8 to hit, 1d6 +5 damage
SoulKnife with sneak attack - +7 to hit, 3d6 +4 damage
SoulKnife [Extra Attack / BA] - +7 to hit, 1d4 +4 damage

---- With Sharpshooter:
Lightning Launcher (first hit) with sneak attack - +3 to hit, 4d6 +15 damage
Lighting Launcher (no sneak / second hit) - +3 to hit, 1d6 +15 damage
SoulKnife with sneak attack - +2 to hit, 3d6 +14 damage
SoulKnife [Extra Attack / BA] - +2 to hit, 1d4 +14 damage

11+: Debating
- Continue Armourer (War Caster feat ; spellcasting focus ; INT and CON for ASI focus)
- Continue Soulknife (sneak attack progression ; skilled feat ; DEX and CON ASI focus)

Did I miss anything glaring standouts so far? Would you recommend going Armourer for more infusions or Soulknife for sneak progression and psionics at 15?


For flavour on how I intend to role-play the character (skip if not important), the background story so far:
Used to get extreme migraines as a kid and had visions of weird places and societies both past and future (explaining psionics). Due to the severity and frequency, a lot of gaps in memory of childhood, adolescence, and early adulthood where they all but ceased. Character knew they grew up in several homes, but doesn't remember much about the people they lived with. Character remembers faces of people they've interacted with in the past, but as time goes on less and less about what they were doing or where they were exactly. Character is arcane but supremely adverse to magic as they don't understand it. In reality, they're casting spells, but its tied to what's around them (mixing and boiling herbs, casting cure wounds, thinking it's the drink or going trance-like for mage hand and not believing an actual hand was there, just rolling with the fortunate results). Character became interested in blacksmithing and engineering (explaining artificer), using what was around them to mimic what they remembered from those visions from. They were successful enough to be accepted to a smithing guild at some point, they had a letter somewhere to prove it. One day they'll remember where they put it. Due to the amnesia effects, character gets lost in the details all the time. Focus' so much on trying to identify differences in the trees, forgets they're in a forest. Becomes very single-minded which is regarded as extreme laziness, led to being kicked out of the guild because they just worked on their own projects and lapsed in contribution to the guild. Horrible with small-talk or picking up on body queues, much less interpreting them.

Personality Trait - Any solution which requires the least effort should be considered.
Ideals - I never run the same con twice.
Bonds - I'm trying to pay off an old debt I owe to a generous benefactor.
Flaws - If there's a plan, I'll forget it. If I don't forget it, I'll ignore it.

[Kane0]

Just remember you will never get advantage to your stealth checks because of how the infiltrator armor works, unless you find a suit of heavy armor that doesnt give you disadvantage on stealth like mihthral.

[Jaganshi Pinion]

Just remember you will never get advantage to your stealth checks because of how the infiltrator armor works, unless you find a suit of heavy armor that doesnt give you disadvantage on stealth like mihthral.

I don't understand. I'm using Studded Leather (maybe Breastplate until dex is maxed, unless like you mentioned mythril comes up). I thought dampening field works as long as the Armour doesn't normally impose disadvantage?

[Kane0]

Well thats a Mandela effect moment on my part then, i could have sworn it required heavy armor.

Carry on, dont mind me.

[Psyren]

1) May I ask why 15 Con? I think those attributes could be better spent elsewhere, e.g. Int, though it might be too late in any case. What race/species are you? (I'm guessing Variant Human based on the starting feat and +1/+1.)

2) I don't get the XBE + Soulknife + Infiltrator combo, it sounds like you have some kind of houserule in there? You can't use your bonus action on both the hand crossbow and the psychic blade normally.

[Jaganshi Pinion]

Well thats a Mandela effect moment on my part then, i could have sworn it required heavy armor.

Carry on, dont mind me.

No worries mate, I don't mind double checking. I'm just worried that I'm not being as efficient as I could be.


1) May I ask why 15 Con? I think those attributes could be better spent elsewhere, e.g. Int, though it might be too late in any case. What race/species are you? (I'm guessing Variant Human based on the starting feat and +1/+1.)

Yes, Vuman will be used for the feat. I wanted 15 CON because I don't intend on having to use 2 ASI levels for CON + INT or CON + DEX (since I'm already going to be chasing INT and DEX primarily, splitting them would slow down the progression of all 3). I could give more allocation to INT to start, but I feel like since I'm going to be worried about positioning (to get sneak), being able to survive a few hits would be better overall.

Would you recommend otherwise?


2) I don't get the XBE + Soulknife + Infiltrator combo, it sounds like you have some kind of houserule in there? You can't use your bonus action on both the hand crossbow and the psychic blade normally.

The idea is to discuss with the DM to have the properties of the crossbow and crossbow expert feat transfer to the knives so that I don't have to carry around the crossbow. That way I can hopefully infuse them and apply what I normally would have on the bow on the knives instead. I don't think it's imbalanced since the knives are 1d6 and 1d4, I would be getting 2x 1d6 with the bow using the bonus action anyway.

I'm aware that I can't use both bonus action options in a single turn, but I want to essentially reflavour the knives as receiving what the crossbow has / got already. If they say no, it's not a big deal as I'll just continue to use the crossbow and never use the knives.

It's just multiclass for Artificer and Rogue, as far as I'm aware it's not a house-rule to multiclass. Am I mistaken?

[Psyren]

Yes, Vuman will be used for the feat. I wanted 15 CON because I don't intend on having to use 2 ASI levels for CON + INT or CON + DEX (since I'm already going to be chasing INT and DEX primarily, splitting them would slow down the progression of all 3). I could give more allocation to INT to start, but I feel like since I'm going to be worried about positioning (to get sneak), being able to survive a few hits would be better overall.

Would you recommend otherwise?

I'm not totally sure what you mean by "positioning to get sneak." Flanking is an optional rule in 5e and you're attacking from range anyway (and SA has no range limit.) 14 Con is not only fine, it will free up valuable points for you to put elsewhere, such as Wis, Int, or Cha.

A spread I'd probably go with for this is 8/15/14/15/10/8, or 8/15/14/13/12/10; depending on how much the group needed me to not have negative Cha (putting the +1s on the odd numbers in each case.)



The idea is to discuss with the DM to have the properties of the crossbow and crossbow expert feat transfer to the knives so that I don't have to carry around the crossbow. That way I can hopefully infuse them and apply what I normally would have on the bow on the knives instead. I don't think it's imbalanced since the knives are 1d6 and 1d4, I would be getting 2x 1d6 with the bow using the bonus action anyway.

I'm aware that I can't use both bonus action options in a single turn, but I want to essentially reflavour the knives as receiving what the crossbow has / got already. If they say no, it's not a big deal as I'll just continue to use the crossbow and never use the knives.

It's just multiclass for Artificer and Rogue, as far as I'm aware it's not a house-rule to multiclass. Am I mistaken?

The houserule I was referring to was treating your psychic blades as though they were hand crossbows. But I'm still confused why you want to do that, because Crossbow Expert doesn't grant your psychic blades anything they don't already have. Attack melee opponents without disadvantage, check; get a bonus action attack with Dex applied, check; make all your ranged attacks without needing to reload, check.

If what you mean is that you want to infuse your psychic blades with bonuses to hit and damage, I would just ask your DM for that ability (applied to a glove or ring or something) and save the feat entirely; you'd be giving up an infusion for it after all.

[Jaganshi Pinion]

I'm not totally sure what you mean by "positioning to get sneak." Flanking is an optional rule in 5e and you're attacking from range anyway (and SA has no range limit.)

I made an Artificer for the current one shot we're playing but was told the other players were going to be a paladin and another Artificer, so I swapped to a Rogue, and they showed up with a Fighter and a Druid. I don't know what they'll actually come with, so I just assumed I'll be looking for places to hide and not rely on someone bringing a Frontline character to rely on for sneak.

I'm probably just being paranoid.


14 Con is not only fine, it will free up valuable points for you to put elsewhere, such as Wis, Int, or Cha.

A spread I'd probably go with for this is 8/15/14/15/10/8, or 8/15/14/13/12/10; depending on how much the group needed me to not have negative Cha (putting the +1s on the odd numbers in each case.)

Yeah, I was kind of suckered into playing the face on the current campaign, and it screwed with the character I had in mind. I am worried about being charmed and frightened, so I will take your suggestion on the second spread. Appreciate it, thank you.


The houserule I was referring to was treating your psychic blades as though they were hand crossbows. But I'm still confused why you want to do that, because Crossbow Expert doesn't grant your psychic blades anything they don't already have. Attack melee opponents without disadvantage, check; get a bonus action attack with Dex applied, check; make all your ranged attacks without needing to reload, check.

It was more for being able to use the knives as I like the idea of them...but they pale in comparison. I should have worded it as 'using the knives as if they were the crossbow' or something, I wasn't fishing for an advantage since the crossbow would already have the goodies. I was also mixing up Sharpshooter and CBE with relation to cover, so the confusion was on me.


If what you mean is that you want to infuse your psychic blades with bonuses to hit and damage, I would just ask your DM for that ability (applied to a glove or ring or something) and save the feat entirely; you'd be giving up an infusion for it after all.

I like the idea of saving the feat, but then I lose the option for the bonus action shot until lvl 6 (or change the level progression to get them at 3). The option to take skilled or war caster (for Fire Bolt opportunity attacks) is tempting.

[Sherlockpwns]

Yeah other than flavor the soul blade doesn’t fit here. Many other subclasses do though.

Anything that doesn’t rely heavily on bonus actions. Thief, scout, AT, phantom are the most likely. AT having particular synergy with spell levels and INT.

Beyond that I think the character will be quite fun.

[Psyren]

I made an Artificer for the current one shot we're playing but was told the other players were going to be a paladin and another Artificer, so I swapped to a Rogue, and they showed up with a Fighter and a Druid. I don't know what they'll actually come with, so I just assumed I'll be looking for places to hide and not rely on someone bringing a Frontline character to rely on for sneak.

I'm probably just being paranoid.
...
Yeah, I was kind of suckered into playing the face on the current campaign, and it screwed with the character I had in mind. I am worried about being charmed and frightened, so I will take your suggestion on the second spread. Appreciate it, thank you.


14 Con is plenty for a ranged character, especially one with as many tricks as an artificer/rogue will have.



It was more for being able to use the knives as I like the idea of them...but they pale in comparison. I should have worded it as 'using the knives as if they were the crossbow' or something, I wasn't fishing for an advantage since the crossbow would already have the goodies. I was also mixing up Sharpshooter and CBE with relation to cover, so the confusion was on me.

No worries - yeah, you'll want to go with either XBE or Soulknife, not both, it's just redundant/wasted build resources otherwise. As Sherlock noted, dropping Soulknife will get you a more synergistic archetype, on the other hand keeping it will save you a feat. It's personal preference really. Not to mention you'll have a pretty crowded bonus action even without these two jockeying for it, between Cunning Action, Steady Aim, spells like Sanctuary etc.



I like the idea of saving the feat, but then I lose the option for the bonus action shot until lvl 6 (or change the level progression to get them at 3). The option to take skilled or war caster (for Fire Bolt opportunity attacks) is tempting.

You can shoot with your bonus action while you wait for Rogue - just pick up a homunculus infusion at 2nd level and have it use its Force Strike. Dump it once you've grabbed Rogue.

[Jaganshi Pinion]

Yeah other than flavor the soul blade doesn’t fit here. Many other subclasses do though.

Anything that doesn’t rely heavily on bonus actions. Thief, scout, AT, phantom are the most likely. AT having particular synergy with spell levels and INT.

Beyond that I think the character will be quite fun.

Thanks, I hope it would be as fun as I imagine too.

I know that Arcane Trickster would work better if I wanted to continue with casting, but I'm new to this and I feel that keeping up with two spell lists will lead to me mixing everything up. I didn't want to take a character with spells at all, however going pure fighter (except Echo Knight) or Barbarian feels like a lot of eggs are in one basket.

The spells I chose are mostly utilitarian in nature and not especially helpful in combat. Figured after I sat in with a few sessions with Wizards / Sorcerer's I'd get better ideas.

I wanted SoulKnife for the Psionic Whispers and extra die on proficient ability checks as well, I just figured going this way I could reflavour the knives so they're actually usable. I actually didn't look into the Phantom subclass in depth, but it looks like a good contender. Now I'm re-evaluating my life choices.


14 Con is plenty for a ranged character, especially one with as many tricks as an artificer/rogue will have.

I will have to take your word for it. I've spoken to people who've played and they typically say that 16 CON is what they would aim for, so I figured starting at 15 would make it easier.


No worries - yeah, you'll want to go with either XBE or Soulknife, not both, it's just redundant/wasted build resources otherwise. As Sherlock noted, dropping Soulknife will get you a more synergistic archetype, on the other hand keeping it will save you a feat. It's personal preference really. Not to mention you'll have a pretty crowded bonus action even without these two jockeying for it, between Cunning Action, Steady Aim, spells like Sanctuary etc.

Just so we're on the same page, we're starting at LVL 1 which is why I took crossbow expert, trying to output as much damage as possible from range to down whatever's ahead. The consensus I've come across seems to be that 'until level 3 you're likely to be downed because the wind gives a concussion'.

Honestly, the plan was to mainly use the bonus action shot if I missed for sneak attack. I figure I'll suffer until I got Extra Attacks. That would give two opportunities (Lightning Launcer and knife / crossbow bolt) per turn and leaves the bonus action to anything non-offensive.


You can shoot with your bonus action while you wait for Rogue - just pick up a homunculus infusion at 2nd level and have it use its Force Strike. Dump it once you've grabbed Rogue.

The homunculus requires 'A gem or crystal worth at least 100 gp'. I seriously doubt that's a reward for clearing mission one in a campaign. Is it that easy to get spell components on average?


To everyone: After LVL 10, would you chase Rogue to 9 (SoulKnife or Phantom) or Armourer 9?

[Psyren]

Just so we're on the same page, we're starting at LVL 1 which is why I took crossbow expert, trying to output as much damage as possible from range to down whatever's ahead. The consensus I've come across seems to be that 'until level 3 you're likely to be downed because the wind gives a concussion'.

Honestly, the plan was to mainly use the bonus action shot if I missed for sneak attack. I figure I'll suffer until I got Extra Attacks. That would give two opportunities (Lightning Launcer and knife / crossbow bolt) per turn and leaves the bonus action to anything non-offensive.

To be totally clear, I think XBE + Rogue + Artificer is fine - all I'm saying is I would pick a different subclass than Soulknife if you're going that route - like Arcane Trickster, Phantom, even Scout.



I will have to take your word for it. I've spoken to people who've played and they typically say that 16 CON is what they would aim for, so I figured starting at 15 would make it easier.

Well actually... I'd say you don't have to take my word for it, check out any number of 5e optimization/build channels like Pack Tactics, Treantmonk's Temple, D4 Deep Dives, Dungeon Dudes, Bilbron's, D&D Daily, Nerdarchy, Wally etc. I'd say most aim for 14 Con on their ranged builds, sometimes even 12 if they're particularly MAD (that one isn't a worry for you though.)



The homunculus requires 'A gem or crystal worth at least 100 gp'. I seriously doubt that's a reward for clearing mission one in a campaign. Is it that easy to get spell components on average?

That depends entirely on your table. If you can't though, not having a bonus action attack at level 2 isn't the end of the world, especially since you're trying to get to 11 or higher and therefore your feats/ASIs are fairly precious. Just trying to make sure you're not sacrificing too much long-term potential for a dubious short-term benefit.



To everyone: After LVL 10, would you chase Rogue to 9 (SoulKnife or Phantom) or Armourer 9?

I would do Armorer 9 only if you expect the campaign to have a lot of magic items so the bonus attunements would come in handy and be a big power boost. Otherwise I would stop at Armorer 7 or even 5 (depending on your Int for Flash of Genius) and put the rest in rogue.

[Skrum]

I would do Armorer 9 only if you expect the campaign to have a lot of magic items so the bonus attunements would come in handy and be a big power boost. Otherwise I would stop at Armorer 7 or even 5 (depending on your Int for Flash of Genius) and put the rest in rogue.

Aren't the infusions only useable on NON-magic items? Getting lots of magic items would make them less useful, not more.

[Psyren]

Aren't the infusions only useable on NON-magic items? Getting lots of magic items would make them less useful, not more.

You'll never have more magic items than attunement/body slots in the party, even counting infusions. More magic items being handed out natively means you have a lot more ability to infuse things the party is lacking and spread them around. For example, everyone having magic weapons and armor means you have more spots available for things like Bag of Holding, Cloak of Elvenkind, Mind Sharpener etc.

[Jaganshi Pinion]

To be totally clear, I think XBE + Rogue + Artificer is fine - all I'm saying is I would pick a different subclass than Soulknife if you're going that route - like Arcane Trickster, Phantom, even Scout.

Sure, it may not be optimum in terms of damage or making sense long-term, but even without the knives the psionic dies and telepathic communication give so much utility outside of combat. Especially if I get the chance to get the Skilled feat (proficiency in Athletics and none of my skills would be negative the entire campaign).


Well actually... I'd say you don't have to take my word for it, check out any number of 5e optimization/build channels like Pack Tactics, Treantmonk's Temple, D4 Deep Dives, Dungeon Dudes, Bilbron's, D&D Daily, Nerdarchy, Wally etc. I'd say most aim for 14 Con on their ranged builds, sometimes even 12 if they're particularly MAD (that one isn't a worry for you though.)

That's more or less the goal of the thread really. I haven't looked up those resources (though I had heard of Pack Tactics and Nerdarchy) and I wanted to go off just reading certain classes (and word of mouth) if I could come up with something viable that I'd want to play.

I've looked at the options available for Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue, Artificer, Monk (why bother?), and Ranger so far. I've not gone through Wizard, Sorcerer, Warlock, Bard, Paladin (just don't care for the concept), Druid, or Cleric as I assume I'd have to keep track of too many options, what's prepared, what slots do I have, etc. A smaller list for what's primarily important for staying alive / keeping other PCs up feels a lot easier to keep track of.

My alt was an Echo Knight Armourer for Thunder Gauntlets, Booming Blade, a handaxe with 'returning weapon', and Sentinel. Maybe a dip or two Barbarian.


That depends entirely on your table. If you can't though, not having a bonus action attack at level 2 isn't the end of the world, especially since you're trying to get to 11 or higher and therefore your feats/ASIs are fairly precious. Just trying to make sure you're not sacrificing too much long-term potential for a dubious short-term benefit.

That's fair. If the reflavouring is allowed I understand that XBE becomes redundant, but I always saw it as 'the character had to get those skills to get to the point in their lives when they utilize that experience with the knives' kind of thing rather than a 'lost feat' since no other race gets one anyway. It was a 'bonus' instead of an 'advantage'. I can stomach that if the reflavour was allowed, but if not, I have the crossbow so it's fine. It's a 'homebrew' idea and it may not be accepted.

I still get the other psionic powers to add dies (that scale with Rogue levels) to bad skill checks and telepathically communicate.

If I'm ever doing a campaign where we start 6+, I would consider taking something else.


I would do Armorer 9 only if you expect the campaign to have a lot of magic items so the bonus attunements would come in handy and be a big power boost. Otherwise I would stop at Armorer 7 or even 5 (depending on your Int for Flash of Genius) and put the rest in rogue.

That makes sense, especially with the psionic abilities that come at 9.

I was weiging that option against the possibility of 3rd or higher level spell slots and didn't know which would be more benificial.


Aren't the infusions only useable on NON-magic items? Getting lots of magic items would make them less useful, not more.

I wouldn't think access to more magical items / infusions would ever be a negative, particularly with a lot of options on the 'Replicate Magic Item' table. Am I wrong?

[Segev]

Because of how 5e handles multiclassing spellcasters, I doubt you will have any trouble with mixing up spell lists between classes. They all use the same spell slots. So if AT seems at all of interesting would consider it. If you're after rogue for the expertise, and are going three levels deep anyway, you may even want to consider Valor or Swords Bard, instead. It will compete less with the rest of your build for that bonus action.

[Jaganshi Pinion]

Because of how 5e handles multiclassing spellcasters, I doubt you will have any trouble with mixing up spell lists between classes. They all use the same spell slots. So if AT seems at all of interesting would consider it.

What does that mean? I'm interpreting that two ways:

3rd lvl Wizard + 3rd lvl Sorcerer
Wizard has 3 cantrips, 4 1st level slots, and 2 2nd level slots
Sorcerer has 4 cantrips, 4 known spells between 4 1st level slots and 2 2nd level slots

a) Additive:
I have 7 cantrips, 8 first level spell slots, and 4 2nd level slots split between 2 spell lists.

b) Split / need quantum physics to track:
I have 7 cantrips, 4 first level slots, 2 2nd level slots, and a bunch of prepared spells from two spell lists.

Either way, that feels like a really roundabout way of preparing for situations. Neither of those appeal as you can only have so many situations 'covered'.

I think it's much easier to just get a bunch of proficiencies and adding the psionic die to bad / sketchy rolls. Then hope for the best like everyone else.


If you're after rogue for the expertise, and are going three levels deep anyway, you may even want to consider Valor or Swords Bard, instead. It will compete less with the rest of your build for that bonus action.

I wasn't going for expertise specifically. Psionic dies can be added for any roll if you're proficient, expertise is just an added bonus and wasn't the focus of the build.

[Segev]

Ah, you specifically want the ?sionic die. Yep, that's the only way to get it!

And it is way (b) that multiclassing works.

You know and prepare spells individually for your classes, but you stack your spellcaster levels to determine your spell slots. you will never have more than four first level spell slots, for example.

[Jaganshi Pinion]

Ah, you specifically want the ?sionic die. Yep, that's the only way to get it!

And it is way (b) that multiclassing works.

You know and prepare spells individually for your classes, but you stack your spellcaster levels to determine your spell slots. you will never have more than four first level spell slots, for example.

With spellcasting I feel like I'll forget what I have available (retcon please?) or spend more time going through options every twelve seconds.

Yes, I figure the boost to die rolls is what keeps you alive (resisting bad effects) moreso than damage output. That's what I have in mind with an 'optimized' build. Most spread out for whatever comes.

But where I did invest in damage, I tried to be efficient with it as well. With an individual option (hide) and sneak attack, I figure that's just the best I have available.

[Quietus]

What does that mean? I'm interpreting that two ways:

3rd lvl Wizard + 3rd lvl Sorcerer
Wizard has 3 cantrips, 4 1st level slots, and 2 2nd level slots
Sorcerer has 4 cantrips, 4 known spells between 4 1st level slots and 2 2nd level slots

a) Additive:
I have 7 cantrips, 8 first level spell slots, and 4 2nd level slots split between 2 spell lists.

b) Split / need quantum physics to track:
I have 7 cantrips, 4 first level slots, 2 2nd level slots, and a bunch of prepared spells from two spell lists.

Either way, that feels like a really roundabout way of preparing for situations. Neither of those appeal as you can only have so many situations 'covered'.

I think it's much easier to just get a bunch of proficiencies and adding the psionic die to bad / sketchy rolls. Then hope for the best like everyone else.

Not quite either of those options. What you've described as Additive is the closest, you get 7 cantrips known, plus your wizard spellbook and your sorcerer spells known. The spells will use the stat (int/cha) relevant to the class that knows it.

For spell slots, you'd look at the multiclass spellcaster table. As a Wiz3/Sorc3, you'd have the spell slots of a 6th level caster; 4 1st level, 3 2nd level, and 3 3rd level. You can use those third level slots for upcasting spells.

[Jaganshi Pinion]

Not quite either of those options. What you've described as Additive is the closest, you get 7 cantrips known, plus your wizard spellbook and your sorcerer spells known. The spells will use the stat (int/cha) relevant to the class that knows it.

For spell slots, you'd look at the multiclass spellcaster table. As a Wiz3/Sorc3, you'd have the spell slots of a 6th level caster; 4 1st level, 3 2nd level, and 3 3rd level. You can use those third level slots for upcasting spells.

That still feels intimidating. I get that it's all speculative and depends on the campaign / DM, but let's say a dungeon crawl-esque adventuring day. After two encounters and some puzzles, I have one 1st level slot left with roughly half the dungeon completed. I would feel completely screwed at that point.

Alternative scenario 1:
I realize four rounds into an encounter I should've used a spell I forgot about. At that point, it's not the game or die rolls that screwed me, but me as a player.

Alternative scenario 2:
I just leveled up, hurray! I put two points in CHA and redo my prepared list. We're planning on climbing a mountain and my spells are chosen accordingly. Mudslide, looks like we're forced into going under instead of over. Three quarters of my spells are no longer ideal.

I guess that's no different from anyone else playing a caster, but (as I'm sure is now self evident) I'm too much in my own head about it. For just starting out my personal preference is buffing skills / checks as much as possible and the tunnel-vision simplicity of relying on a weapon for damage makes the game feel more approachable.

My biggest gripe is the wording / two-hand requirement / un-buffable knives that the soulknife gets, which is why I'm hoping a re-flavouring is allowed. I'm fine with the psionics nature of the class as I think it adds a lot to durability / survivability.

[Quietus]

That still feels intimidating. I get that it's all speculative and depends on the campaign / DM, but let's say a dungeon crawl-esque adventuring day. After two encounters and some puzzles, I have one 1st level slot left with roughly half the dungeon completed. I would feel completely screwed at that point.

Alternative scenario 1:
I realize four rounds into an encounter I should've used a spell I forgot about. At that point, it's not the game or die rolls that screwed me, but me as a player.

Alternative scenario 2:
I just leveled up, hurray! I put two points in CHA and redo my prepared list. We're planning on climbing a mountain and my spells are chosen accordingly. Mudslide, looks like we're forced into going under instead of over. Three quarters of my spells are no longer ideal.

I guess that's no different from anyone else playing a caster, but (as I'm sure is now self evident) I'm too much in my own head about it. For just starting out my personal preference is buffing skills / checks as much as possible and the tunnel-vision simplicity of relying on a weapon for damage makes the game feel more approachable.

My biggest gripe is the wording / two-hand requirement / un-buffable knives that the soulknife gets, which is why I'm hoping a re-flavouring is allowed. I'm fine with the psionics nature of the class as I think it adds a lot to durability / survivability.

If you're burning through 8+ spell slots in two encounters, you're spending your spell slots WAY too often. Besides, I didn't make this comment before, but a 3/3 full caster split is generally not a good idea, since you really do want those third level spells known.

In the context of what was being discussed, with regard to the arcane trickster, you can think of it as putting a little more gas in the tank, and gaining a few basic tools. You've focused on the charisma side of things, so I'll stick with AT/Sorcerer. I'd still grab 5-6 Rogue levels first, they're some of the best you'll get, but if you grab 3 levels of sorcerer afterward, you can pick up four spells known, from levels 1 and 2. It's not many, but you can grab the spells you want to target with saves (charm person, hold person, and the like), and you also grab metamagic. An AT can do a lot with Subtle Spell! Then back on the AT side, you focus on grabbing your spells that don't require saves - Find Familiar, Disguise Self, with an eye for Invisibility later. This combo puts you ahead on spell slots, a 9th level AT has 4x 1st level and 2x 2xnd level; a 6 AT/3 fullcaster split gets you three additional spell slots, for 4x 1st, 3x 2nd, and 2x 3rd, which again, can be used to upcast. Hold Person or Invisibility both upcast very nicely, adding targets as they go. I believe Charm Person does as well.

If you'd rather focus int with the above, you can do that too, just switch which classes get which spells. Get your buffs on the sorc side, get your spells with saves through AT.

Also an option, wizard instead of sorcerer. You won't get metamagic, but you do get ritual casting for 1st and 2nd level spells, bringing more magic to bear. And the Wizard subclasses have some standout options, particularly if you want to be in combat, War Magic and Bladesinging are both excellent.

[Jaganshi Pinion]

If you're burning through 8+ spell slots in two encounters, you're spending your spell slots WAY too often. Besides, I didn't make this comment before, but a 3/3 full caster split is generally not a good idea, since you really do want those third level spells known.

In the context of what was being discussed, with regard to the arcane trickster, you can think of it as putting a little more gas in the tank, and gaining a few basic tools. You've focused on the charisma side of things, so I'll stick with AT/Sorcerer. I'd still grab 5-6 Rogue levels first, they're some of the best you'll get, but if you grab 3 levels of sorcerer afterward, you can pick up four spells known, from levels 1 and 2. It's not many, but you can grab the spells you want to target with saves (charm person, hold person, and the like), and you also grab metamagic. An AT can do a lot with Subtle Spell! Then back on the AT side, you focus on grabbing your spells that don't require saves - Find Familiar, Disguise Self, with an eye for Invisibility later. This combo puts you ahead on spell slots, a 9th level AT has 4x 1st level and 2x 2xnd level; a 6 AT/3 fullcaster split gets you three additional spell slots, for 4x 1st, 3x 2nd, and 2x 3rd, which again, can be used to upcast. Hold Person or Invisibility both upcast very nicely, adding targets as they go. I believe Charm Person does as well.

If you'd rather focus int with the above, you can do that too, just switch which classes get which spells. Get your buffs on the sorc side, get your spells with saves through AT.

Also an option, wizard instead of sorcerer. You won't get metamagic, but you do get ritual casting for 1st and 2nd level spells, bringing more magic to bear. And the Wizard subclasses have some standout options, particularly if you want to be in combat, War Magic and Bladesinging are both excellent.



I will keep that in mind, most likely in future iterations of the character when I get a better grasp of magic and spell slots.

@Everyone: What am I missing? Why does everyone immediately try to get away from the SoulKnife portion of the build? I thought the game was based on surviving skill checks just as much as having resources, but it feels like everyone is dumping a really broad range of durability. Don't get me wrong, I got the impression that 'moar spells means moar powah' since there are so many available, but is there really so little pay-off for having added die to almost every skill and telepathic communication for up to a mile?

It almost feels like every response has been 'forget anything else you're going to run into and get damage / spells'. I thought an optimized build would be one you can put in any setting and have a decent shot solo or in a party. Like Mario in Smash Bros. Enough damage to not feel useless, enough durability to have a decent go.

TL;DR
Are optimized builds supposed to focus on trying to be Gandalf or a DPS machine? Or does it vary that widely table to table?

[Dork_Forge]

I will keep that in mind, most likely in future iterations of the character when I get a better grasp of magic and spell slots.

@Everyone: What am I missing? Why does everyone immediately try to get away from the SoulKnife portion of the build? I thought the game was based on surviving skill checks just as much as having resources, but it feels like everyone is dumping a really broad range of durability. Don't get me wrong, I got the impression that 'moar spells means moar powah' since there are so many available, but is there really so little pay-off for having added die to almost every skill and telepathic communication for up to a mile?

It almost feels like every response has been 'forget anything else you're going to run into and get damage / spells'. I thought an optimized build would be one you can put in any setting and have a decent shot solo or in a party. Like Mario in Smash Bros. Enough damage to not feel useless, enough durability to have a decent go.

TL;DR
Are optimized builds supposed to focus on trying to be Gandalf or a DPS machine? Or does it vary that widely table to table?

You can optimizer for whatever you wany to optimizer for, you don't need to get every point of damage out of the build necessary.

The Soul knife gives you a great skill boost and nice utility with the telepathy, whilst the Sneak Attack boosts the damage of your lightning cannon.

The only thing that gives pause is that the psychic blades are basically an odd part of the build. With lightning cannon and your spells using your Int, the blades will be at best using a secondary stat. However, as long as your Dex is decent (on mobile and do t remember your array) iirc you could just lightning cannon with one attack, then psychic blades with the second and then use the bonus action attack too. I think the reading is a little up to the DM rather than explicit, but it's pretty intuitive and not exactly OP.

Your build sounds fun and flavourful, I hope you enjoy it.

[Jaganshi Pinion]

You can optimizer for whatever you wany to optimizer for, you don't need to get every point of damage out of the build necessary.

The Soul knife gives you a great skill boost and nice utility with the telepathy, whilst the Sneak Attack boosts the damage of your lightning cannon.

That feels kind of lost, not even an after-thought with the way the responses were trending. With such a viceral response for Phantom (damage) or AT (spells), it started to feel like I misunderstood.


The only thing that gives pause is that the psychic blades are basically an odd part of the build. With lightning cannon and your spells using your Int, the blades will be at best using a secondary stat. However, as long as your Dex is decent (on mobile and do t remember your array) iirc you could just lightning cannon with one attack, then psychic blades with the second and then use the bonus action attack too. I think the reading is a little up to the DM rather than explicit, but it's pretty intuitive and not exactly OP.

Your build sounds fun and flavourful, I hope you enjoy it.

Thanks, I thought that even though it can't cover everything, I got out of it as much as could be offered.

You were correct, DEX starts at 16, gets to 18 at lvl 7. And your interpretation is correct. That's why the build has to start (in my opinion) with CrossBow Expert until lvl 6 so the same options / action economy is consistent throughout the campaign as more gets added with both subclasses. Cunning Action at 5, extra attack comes in at lvl 8. And if anything, ignore the blades and continue with the crossbow. Sure, you lose a roaming infusion, but at minimun you're at Armourer 6 so there are some good enough options still available.

And the build feels flexible enough that you can continue going Armourer for more. By the time the campaign gets to lvl 10, that decision should be easier to form.

Also, thanks to Tawmis [ https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?591882-Need-a-character-background-written-up (Twamis) ], I now have a backstory.




This was enjoyable to write. The rescuer I mention "Belleza Astucia" is Spanish for "Beauty" "Trickery"... Will make sense when you read it, and I like the sound of the name.
I even do a thing with your name "Kasim" and how it came to be...
The wizard I mention "Adnaflag Panil Mereaj" is an anagram of "Gandalf" "Palin Maejere" (I am sure you know who Gandalf is... or I hope so... lol... and Palin Maejere, if you're familiar with Dragonlance you might know who he is... I am currently playing in a 5e Dragonlance campaign as a white wizard and used Palin Maejere as my avatar/image representation for my wizard).
I delve into your psionics... your migraines... your smithing... and wrap it all in a little bunny.
Only thing I really changed was rather than a Smithing Guild, it was more of a personal friend, but done so, I think in a more tender way...
========================


They call it the Eternal Night – the rare occurrence when there is a lunar eclipse during the winter solstice. It’s often celebrated by the people of the world – to show courage against the darkness that washes over the world.

The people of Palmhaven lived on a secluded island, in a small hamlet, near the base of the Greystone Mountains. During the event of the Eternal Night – something terrible came to the hamlet of Palmhaven. Humanoid creatures that were things of nightmares and they were there for slaves and food – and the people of Palmhaven met both of those criteria.

The people of Palmhaven were aware of these creatures – they called them “Mind Flayers” – the rest of the educated world called them “Illithid.” In a single moment of terror, the entire hamlet of Palmhaven had disappeared, pulled into the darkness beneath Greystone Mountain. The fortunate ones were devoured early, others were made into slaves, and the young, such as myself, were “experimented” upon by the Mind Flayers.

One of the women, Belleza Astucia, had managed to trick one of the Illithid into loosening her bonds; and with that, she was able to escape – grabbing a random child – that happened to be me, and run blindly through the Greystone caves. Remarkably, she found her way out of the caves by following the blood of her fellow villagers that decorated the floor from the night that’d all been dragged in. Once she reached the surface, she fled, holding me tightly until she reached another hamlet called Windbrook where she explained what had happened to the people of Palmhaven. It so happened that a wizard by the name of Adnaflag Panil Mereaj (though she simply went by “Mereaj” pronounced “Mirage”) took an interest to the story as she listened closely to Belleza’s story.

Mereaj ask Belleza why she’d only grabbed the infant boy, and not simply fled; Belleza explained that the Illithid had been experiment on the children and she knew she could only save one. She’d named the boy “Chasm” because in truth, she did not know which infant she saved – and named him after the darkness from which he’d been pulled. Mereaj sensed that the experience the Illithid had done had a drastic effect on the child’s energy and aurora and offered to care for the boy. Belleza, who was in no condition herself to tend to the boy, was thankful. Mereaj would take “Chasm” to the main land and introduce him as “Kasim” instead, borrowing from the name that Belleza had used, as to avoid explaining why the young infant was named “Chasm.”

Over the years, Mereaj had treated Kasim as her own child – and soon, those who got to know Mereaj assumed that the boy had indeed been her son. When Kasim reached the age of five, he began to suffer extreme and rehabilitating migraines that would leave him in the fetal position. Desperate to help Kasim, Mereaj began researching more and more about the Illithid – but information was difficult to come by, due to how elusive they were and how dangerous it was to even go to where they’re found – and the Illithid were never taken alive, making learning about them and their culture extremely difficult.

The migraines that Kasim suffered continued for years as Mereaj searched desperately for a cure. He’d been sixteen and out with Mereaj, walking the streets when they had passed a blacksmith and Mereaj took notice how, for the first time, Kasim seemed at peace. She stopped and walked back to Kasim asking why he’d looked so peaceful suddenly.

Kasim looked at the blacksmith who was hammering away at forging a sword and said, matter-of-factly, “It’s weird. The noise of the anvil and hammer seems to negate my migraine in my head.”

This did not make sense Mereaj – if anything, the loud thundering noise should make it worse. But this had given her an idea. She looked at the blacksmith, “Excuse me, sir,” she said politely. “Could you use a striker?” The blacksmith looked up from the forging of the blade, wiped his brow, and looked between Mereaj and Kasim.

“The boy looks like he could use some muscle. Sure,” the human laughed, “bring him on over here.” Kasim walked around, and the blacksmith who introduced himself as Oakhammer, instructed Kasim on how to be a blacksmith striker. Mereaj watched and could not help but feel the tears brim in her eyes, stinging the corners, as she tried to fight them back – seeing Kasim truly smiling and happy. When Mereaj had come back to Oakhammer to pick him, Kasim was exhausted; but Oakhammer complimented the boy’s dedication and said he’d love to see him back again. When Kasim got home, he collapsed immediately, too exhausted to even realize his migraine had been waiting for him; and so Mereaj found a cure – in a roundabout way. Day after day, Kasim would get up, eager to go to Oakhammer and begin helping – the rhythmic pounding, somehow keeping his migraines away, and day after day, Kasim was learning more and more from Oakhammer.

As the months went by, it was getting increasingly more difficult for these sessions to tire out Kasim, though he was seemingly able to keep his migraines in check. One night, at dinner with Mereaj, Kasim asked, “What do you know about the Illithid? For some reason, I remember being in a pod, where the Illithid were tampering with me – and a woman, her name was Belleza rescued me. Though, I don’t know why – as she wasn’t my mother. I can’t even remember my mother or father. But I remember the gel-pod very clearly, as well as Belleza’s face.”

Mereaj’s mouth was agape, her hand half way between the table and the destination of her mouth. How had Kasim remembered, in such detail the gel-pod, the Illithid and Belleza’s name and her looks – Mereaj had never spoke of it, nor has anyone else – for it’d been eighteen years, and all the connections Kasim had with his small island where he’d come from were long gone. Mereaj cleared her throat, “How is it you remember this memory?”

Kasim shrugged. “I was at the forge today, and one of the sparks, it reminded me of something, and then it all came back.”

“You were an infant then, barely three months old, how could you remember so much detail?” Mereaj asked, though it’d been rhetorical. That night Mereaj shared with Kasim all she’d known about the boy and that dreadful night and how he’d come into Mereaj’s care.

It’d been two weeks after Kasim had asked that question of Mereaj where Kasim’s life took another strange twist. While with Oakhammer, the human blacksmith explained he wanted Kasim to have his own hand in forging – and explained that Kasim should envision how this weapon would look in his hand – he explained the balance, the hilt, and how all of it was a delicate process to make the perfect weapon. Kasim closed his eyes and envisioned this dagger that Oakhammer was going to let him forge; when he heard a started yelp from the burly man. Kasim opened his eyes, and to his surprise saw a glowing blue dagger coming out from the back of his hand.

Oakhammer immediately fetched Mereaj as Kasim was beginning to panic at the sight of this ethereal dagger that he could not get rid of. Mereaj came rushing over and saw this glowing blade that seemed to come out from the top of Kasim’s wrist. “A psychic blade,” she whispered in awe. Few whom Mereaj encountered had the ability to unlock the potential psionic that exists in all people; locked away in the potential of the brain behind a million doors with a million different keys. She wrapped her arm around Kasim and calmed him down.

Despite Kasim’s unusual ability, Oakhammer was eager to have him back and do further training. He soon discovered that day when the “psychic blade” as Mereaj had called it emerged from his fist Kasim had also gone through a change. Whatever had awakened inside of him had also made him feel disconnected. He was no longer the same engaging person – he began tinkering with things and wiring things together from the scraps from the blacksmith’s forge. Rather than engaging with the customers, he was often getting so focused on the minute details that people would often wander off.

When Oakhammer expressed this to Mereaj, she knew what had happened. When he summoned that “psychic blade” – it opened up Kasim’s mind to everything. He was now seeing the world in brand new details and he was, undoubtedly, whether he knew it or not, perhaps one of the most intelligent people on the continent. The experiments the Illithid had done on Kasim as an infant were now bearing fruit.

Though Oakhammer continued to have Kasim help, and even forge some of his own things, Kasim often veered off the plans that Oakhammer had laid out, causing delays in customer requests, as Kasim made weapons and armor that varied than what was requested – simply to see what the outcome would be. With that, Oakhammer had to eventually speak with Mereaj about Kasim’s behavior and released him from working with Oakhammer.

Kasim could tell he was different than everyone else – he took what he learned from Oakhammer, in making weapons – especially armor – and with a glance at his “psychic blade” thanked Mereaj for all the love and support she’d given him – and packed his bags and set out for the world. There was something out there, he was sure of it, and he wanted to find it. He just wasn’t sure what that “it” was.

[Psyren]

@Everyone: What am I missing? Why does everyone immediately try to get away from the SoulKnife portion of the build? I thought the game was based on surviving skill checks just as much as having resources, but it feels like everyone is dumping a really broad range of durability. Don't get me wrong, I got the impression that 'moar spells means moar powah' since there are so many available, but is there really so little pay-off for having added die to almost every skill and telepathic communication for up to a mile?

1) Soulknife is fine, people are just pointing out the anti-synergy with hand crossbows and the Lightning Launcher from a combat perspective. The extent to which that is a bother is going to vary from person to person; it appears you don't mind that so go for it.

2) The same goes for psionic dice - if you see more benefit to them personally than you could get out of spellcasting synergy between Artificer/AT, go for it.

[Jaganshi Pinion]

1) Soulknife is fine, people are just pointing out the anti-synergy with hand crossbows and the Lightning Launcher from a combat perspective. The extent to which that is a bother is going to vary from person to person; it appears you don't mind that so go for it.

Fair. To be honest, there were ideas I hadn't considered, some I outright dismissed. As well the fact I (sort-of) understand spell slots better.

I guess I was looking for an argument to sway me and I wasn't convinced. Still new to this and the character may change over time. Live and learn.



2) The same goes for psionic dice - if you see more benefit to them personally than you could get out of spellcasting synergy between Artificer/AT, go for it.

I cede, I like the idea of extra chances to pass things that scale compared to spells. To be fair, I weighed the psionic die functions against the Phantom more than I thought I would.

[Psyren]

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I wasn't trying to convince you of anything - just stating some facts (i.e. XBE + Soulknife means two features competing for your bonus action, and also leaves you down a feat that could have been spent on something else). Everything beyond that is subjective opinion/feeling and you don't have to explain your build to anyone here :smallsmile:

[Segev]

In terms of "subclass real estate," which is worth more in the Soul Knife: the psionic die, or the soul knife itself? If you were to trade abilities out, which of these would trade for a "bigger" replacement ability? Do they compare to other class or subclass features, Rogue or otherwise, that might switch out one for? In particular, if you wanted to give up the soul knife but keep the psionic die, would the soul knife trade for a "big" ability or a secondary one?