Hope I make it to the end. [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Sir_Norbert

2023-07-21, 10:48 AM

brian 333

2023-07-21, 11:35 AM

... but we're at a point where certain things (such as the characters deciding to leave the dungeon and go elsewhere) couldn't be accepted because it would feel like the author had broken his commitment to the journey.

I don't see it that way at all.

For examples:

If Xykon is betrayed and about to be ganked, he could retreat to his fortress and the party would have to go hunting him.

If there is an important piece of information waiting for us to discover which requires the party to go elsewhere for a very good reason.

If the IFCC does something which requires the party to deal with them on their home plane.

If Serini has only pretended to ally with the OotS and is about to send them against their will to Icewall Castle to meet the walrus-men and find a Dragonlance.

I'm not saying any of these things have to happen, but as you note, there is still a lot of unresolved story. It does not all have to be resolved here and the climax of the story does not have to occur at The Gate.

Does the disposition of the Maltese Falcon or the contents of the briefcase matter to the story they are in?

The gate is not important, other than as That Thing That Makes The Fight Important. The McGuffin is a tool; it is not the plot. The McGuffin serves the plot. The plot is Roy vs. Xykon, and that can be resolved anywhere. Once that part is done, all the loose ends tie themselves up, no matter where the climax occurs.

Sir_Norbert

2023-07-21, 12:34 PM

Sure, I could have spoken more precisely. It's not the location that's important; it's that everything right now feels like this is where it comes together. Both parties of main characters are here; this is the last gate; Serini is present to give us the long-teased backstory of the Scribblers; we've had the big reveal about how high the stakes are. If Xykon were now to teleport off to his astral fortress, that would go against the overall current of the story. The astral fortress is just not interesting enough to carry the grand climax.

As an aside: "McGuffin" means an object that is interesting and desired by the actors in a story, but what it is doesn't matter to the readers/viewers, only that it is fought over. The briefcase, as you mentioned, is an example.

Not all stories are of this type. OOTS is not. The Snarl is definitely not a McGuffin. Its nature does matter; it has agency; it has already taken action and had an effect on some of the characters in the story. (Yes, I am aware that in one of his quote, Rich used the term "McGuffin", but he did so inaccurately.)

And the plot is not Roy v Xykon. That is the driver of the plot, but in itself, it's far less interesting than the branches that have grown up around it. We know Roy wins; that was resolved as early as the Oracle's prophecy of a happy ending. The Snarl's nature is far more important because it's one of the things that continues to keep the reader engaged and absorbed.

Metastachydium

2023-07-21, 12:59 PM

And the plot is not Roy v Xykon. That is the driver of the plot, but in itself, it's far less interesting than the branches that have grown up around it. We know Roy wins; that was resolved as early as the Oracle's prophecy of a happy ending. The Snarl's nature is far more important because it's one of the things that continues to keep the reader engaged and absorbed.

Indeed.

I don't see it that way at all.

For examples:

If Xykon is betrayed and about to be ganked, he could retreat to his fortress and the party would have to go hunting him.

That's not a valid scenario barring special circumstances. If Xykon is betrayed and flees, that creates an awkward situation where he becomes an out-of-context problem for the duration of his absence. The party certainly won't and, in fact, cannot abandon the quest to save the world simply to resolve a personal vendetta.

If the IFCC does something which requires the party to deal with them on their home plane.

Well, that probably is the only place where they can truly be killed.

If Serini has only pretended to ally with the OotS and is about to send them against their will to Icewall Castle to meet the walrus-men and find a Dragonlance.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!

The gate is not important, other than as That Thing That Makes The Fight Important. The McGuffin is a tool; it is not the plot. The McGuffin serves the plot. The plot is Roy vs. Xykon, and that can be resolved anywhere. Once that part is done, all the loose ends tie themselves up, no matter where the climax occurs.

Technically, Roy himself has acknowledged back in WaXP that him vs. Xykon is only important insofar as Xykon is the threat to the world (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html). Roy vs. Xykon will only be the plot insofar and as long as that remains that way.

littlebum2002

2023-07-21, 02:54 PM

The Snarl is definitely not a McGuffin. .

Rich thinks it is

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?273656-The-current-main-plot-is-boring/page2&p=14813005#post14813005

yes

2023-07-21, 03:30 PM

Sir_Norbert

2023-07-21, 03:46 PM

Rich thinks it is

I already addressed this. Thanks for digging up the link though.

I think the plot is very much Roy vs Xykon. For all the other plot elements that have come up, they all lead back to that conflict.

That's what I meant by saying Roy v Xykon is the driver of the plot. It's what keeping the engine in motion. But the plot is also much more than this: it's what happens to the secondary characters and to the world as a whole, and the outcomes of the little battles along the way.

gbaji

2023-07-21, 04:28 PM

I think where people get tripped up with regards to "what the story is about", and McGuffins, is that there can be multiple antagonists. The story is called "The order of the Stick". It's about them. From a story telling point of view, we care about them. But, just as with the SW reverence in the link, we therefore also care about Yavin4 because that's where some of the protagonists are. Thus we care about the "world ending" in this story for the same reason.

Xykon is an objective for Roy initially, but he's an antagonist in the story because he's seeking the Snarl (McGuffin) and that threatens the world (which the protagonsists happen to live on and care about). The moment Xykon is no longer a threat to the world via control of the snarl, he ceases to be an antagnonist in the story (he may return to be one later, but not right at that moment). If the IFCC reveal their plans, and those plans are "bad for the Order", then they become an antagonist and must be dealt with. The gods are also technically antagnoists as well, since they're the big hammer over everyone's heads waiting to destory the world (which, again, the Order and everyone they care about live on).

Resolving the issues with the snarl, and the seals, and colors/quiddities is part of the plot steps needed for the Order to defeat all of the antagonists in the story (ie: everything threatening to destroy the world they live on). That's the action they are taking (save the world by doing <whatever>). The motivation for doing so is what makes them the protagonists (well, and we're telling their story, afterall).

So no. If Xykon is betrayed by RC and flees to his astral fortress, the order would only chase him if there was no other antagonist acting on them that was more immediate (ie: gods about to destroy the world, or IFCC doing whatever they are inevitably going to do). The Snarl itself (as well as the gate) are just objects within this story, which may be used to create threats to the main characters, but are not actually goals in and of themselves. The Order only cares about them because there are other forces trying to use them in ways that may harm them. That doesn't preclude the need to deal with them directly, just like a hero may need to disarm a ticking time bomb in a story, the bomb isn't the antagonist. The person who set the bomb is. Even "disarming the bomb" isn't the goal of the protagonist. It's "prevent the antagonists from causing me or those I care about harm". The bomb is just what the antagonist is using at the moment to do that, so disarming it is probably a good course of action.

I just think that people sometimes take the storytelling terminology a bit too literally and go too far in the "so the Order doesn't care about stopping the snarl" direction. That's not correct either (and presumably not what Rich was trying to say). It's just that their objective isn't simply "stop the snarl". It's "save the world we live on". The snarl just happens to be what's being used in this story by <antagonists> to threaten the destruction of the world. So dealing with them is the goal, and likely dealing with the snarl itself will be part of that process.

This also doesn't preclude the concept of tying up lose ends during the denouement phase of the story. That's where the author can certainly tell us "what happened to X" where X may not have been a critical component to resolving the plot, but may be of interest to the reader. I suspect we'll get a lot of that, since there's a lot of minor stuff around the story that readers will likely be intrested in.

KorvinStarmast

2023-07-21, 05:43 PM

I just think that people sometimes take the storytelling terminology a bit too literally and go too far in the "so the Order doesn't care about stopping the snarl" direction. That's not correct either (and presumably not what Rich was trying to say). It's just that their objective isn't simply "stop the snarl". It's "save the world we live on". The snarl just happens to be what's being used in this story by <antagonists> to threaten the destruction of the world. So dealing with them is the goal, and likely dealing with the snarl itself will be part of that process.
Some of us get this; what does perplex me is those who don't, or perhaps appear not to based on the positions taken.

brian 333

2023-07-21, 10:45 PM

Xykon exists, problems never get solved.

Xykon destroyed, problems solved with trivial ease.

All of the branches of the plot which 'need to be resolved' can be resolved in a four page comic with a splash page as the final one. Literally none of it 'requires the Order of the Stick to resolve.'

The gates? Loki, Rat, Tiamat, and TDO can do that.

The IFCC? Xykon off the table renders their plots pointless, unless they can create a new and improved Xylon 2.0

The Western Continent issues? That has already been passed off to Ian. Any revisit of that plot reduces the impact of Elan's victory.

Name a plot branch and remove Xykon. Then reexamine that plot point. You will discover that all, literally all, of them resolve without the Order doing anything at all.

Which leaves one thing: defeating Xykon.

That is the goal. That is the quest. Everything else only shows why that one thing is important.

Defeat Xykon and the comic is over. A few wrap-up pages to answer those questions left unanswered, and we're done.

I suppose I am in the minority when I say I'd love to see Xykon's astral fortress. I'd love to see Roy chase him across the cosmos. I'd love to see another 20 years of OotS.

The only difference between this point of the story and the Dungeon of Dorukon is fifteen years of great storytelling. Who would want to go back and have the story end there?

Sir_Norbert

2023-07-22, 09:03 AM

brian 333

2023-07-22, 01:31 PM

...which is another thing Rich got wrong, in my opinion. If there is a "we" that cares about Yavin 4 only because the protagonists are on it, then, as Kish would say, I am happy not to be included in that "we". Same for the world in OOTS.

I'm honestly not sure what point you are trying to make. It is obvious that Xykon's final defeat comes right at the end as the grand climax, and that has never come into question.

It is also obvious that other factors (the MitD's gradual turn towards good, the IFCC's plan, Belkar's character development...) are important and will be involved in the climax. Think of the storyteller as a juggler: it gets more and more exciting, the more balls are up in the air at a time. Rich has been gradually adding balls to make the climax more and more exciting; he is not going to randomly let most of them go.

Again, look at the climax of book 6 for how this works. There, Greg was the main villain (of the arc) and defeating Greg was the quest. But Minrah's character development, Hilgya's return, the change in Belkar, and the teasing glimpses we were given into Durkon's past all had to be kept into the air and all brought together at the same time for the climax to be as satisfying as it was.

But in the previous posts it was said that all of the other plot branches could only be tied up by the OotS. My point was, as I said, that all of those other branches are not only (relatively) easily tied up when the Roy vs. Xykon arc is concluded, but also that the OotS was not required to do anything about them for their resolution.

There are exceptions for the individual characters: Durkon and Kudzu requires Durkon, but not the OotS, for example.

Otherwise, those who object to my thesis: please find a plot thread which requires The Order to resolve besides Roy vs. Xykon, which does not either resolve itself or be resolved by those on the ground handling it.

To be clear: my thesis is that all of the sub-plots exist only to increase the importance of defeating Xykon and to increase the penalties for failing to do so.

The Snarl, the gates, the Azure City/Gobbotopia dispute, the Western Continent Revolution: none of these matter to the main plot. That plot is Roy vs. Xykon. Resolve that and all the rest is at best fodder for The Stickverse RPG Campaign Guide.

Metastachydium

2023-07-22, 01:52 PM

That plot is Roy vs. Xykon.

Once again, no. As has been linked to above, even Roy acknowledges and states very clearly and explicitly that this is not about the two of them. The Snarl is the McGuffin, yes. But Xykon is only a main plot level issue insofar as it is a realistic possibility that he might interfere with this McGuffin. If Xykon is no threat to the world anymore, he falls into irrelevance. Going back to your Astral Fortress example, if he rans off before the race for last Gate concludes, the Order won't drop everything to go chase him and leave Redcloak to roam free as he pleases. They will address the biggest immediate threat first, as they always do. Remember: DStP contains one little ten minute run in with Big X. BritF, a full 2 rounds. UD, none at all. Are these books not part of the main plot, then? And UD even less so than DStP? I'd say: hardly.

EDIT: All in all, "the world gets saved without the Order's participation as they branch off to defeat some powerful dead guy who's not the real threat anymore" is no less of an anticlimax than "the powerful dead guy built up as the BBEG's just randomly destroyed before the endgame".

Sir_Norbert

2023-07-22, 05:52 PM

But in the previous posts it was said that all of the other plot branches could only be tied up by the OotS.

I cannot find anywhere where someone has said this. If I missed it, please indicate which post you mean.

My point was, as I said, that all of those other branches are not only (relatively) easily tied up when the Roy vs. Xykon arc is concluded, but also that the OotS was not required to do anything about them for their resolution.

Yes; and so what?

That doesn't prove your thesis at all. It doesn't say anything about why the various subplots matter.

The IFCC subplot, for example, could just peter out without the characters doing anything to resolve it. It's not going to, because if it was, why would Rich introduce it in the first place? (And just to be clear: I am not arguing the Order will actually go to Hell and fight or destroy the IFCC. They are way above the Order's pay grade. But I am confident that: (1) the IFCC's plans will affect the main plot and be part of how everything comes together and gets resolved in the end; (2) the Order's actions will, in some way, be what results in the IFCC having to abandon their plans -- because they are the protagonists, and when a major threat to the protagonists gets removed without their actions being the cause, that is pretty much the definition of an anticlimax.)

Mechalich

2023-07-22, 06:39 PM

Once again, no. As has been linked to above, even Roy acknowledges and states very clearly and explicitly that this is not about the two of them. The Snarl is the McGuffin, yes. But Xykon is only a main plot level issue insofar as it is a realistic possibility that he might interfere with this McGuffin. If Xykon is no threat to the world anymore, he falls into irrelevance.

This is tied into the broader issue that Xykon has little agency in the story despite being nominally the big bad. I mean, he can barely even remember who are heroes are, doesn't particularly hate them any more than he seems to hate everyone generally, and seems to be mostly pursuing the plan with the gates just to have something to do. While it's open to debate exactly how much Xykon qualifies as Redcloak's pawn, he's definitely partly in thrall to his high priest friend. Xykon doesn't he have the ability to enact the ultimate plan to blackmail the gods on behalf of the Dark One, since he can't cast the ritual (he doesn't know that, but we, the audience, do).

Now, the critical question is what does Xykon do if (or more likely, when) Redcloak ultimately has a change of heart/is killed/is otherwise prevented from enacting the plan? There are many options here, depending on whether or not Redcloak survives the seemingly inevitable betrayal he's going to enact, what the MitD in the darkness does, and even where the confrontation takes place (notably, how close it is to the final gate).

For example, if Xykon learns that the outer planes are unaffected by the end of the world, he might consider blasting the final gate apart and then teleporting out as a gigantic table flip to the entire cosmos - that would be very in character. Or, in a slightly more restrained situation, an enraged Xykon might simply attack the Order head on in fury. And there are other scenarios, but most of them, in my mind, hinge on Xykon playing the role of the final boss fight that comes after the world has already been saved, which is a fairly common device and makes sense in this scenario since the world is likely to be saved not by any sort of combat on the OOTS' part, but rather through some amount of persuasion, trickery, and third-party intervention.

brian 333

2023-07-23, 02:43 AM

Once again, no. As has been linked to above, even Roy acknowledges and states very clearly and explicitly that this is not about the two of them. The Snarl is the McGuffin, yes. But Xykon is only a main plot level issue insofar as it is a realistic possibility that he might interfere with this McGuffin. If Xykon is no threat to the world anymore, he falls into irrelevance. Going back to your Astral Fortress example, if he rans off before the race for last Gate concludes, the Order won't drop everything to go chase him and leave Redcloak to roam free as he pleases. They will address the biggest immediate threat first, as they always do. Remember: DStP contains one little ten minute run in with Big X. BritF, a full 2 rounds. UD, none at all. Are these books not part of the main plot, then? And UD even less so than DStP? I'd say: hardly.

EDIT: All in all, "the world gets saved without the Order's participation as they branch off to defeat some powerful dead guy who's not the real threat anymore" is no less of an anticlimax than "the powerful dead guy built up as the BBEG's just randomly destroyed before the endgame".

Without Xykon in the game The Snarl is not a threat.

Leaving Redcloak free to do as he wishes to go chasing Xykon is an interesting point: Xykon wouldn't run away if Redcloak is still alive and apparently loyal. However, assume Xykon leaves and Redcloak is still around. Then what?

For The Plan to work, Redcloak needs an intact gate, so he won't destroy it to release The Snarl, (unless he thought he was about to die and the gate was right there.)

The Plan requires a willing arcane caster of epic levels, so if Xykon leaves, The Plan is on hold, at least until he can be replaced.

Absent The Snarl and The Plan, Xykon is still an extreme threat. As was pointed out, he might simply destroy the gate because he was annoyed and felt safe in having a hideaway on the Astral plane.

Absent Xykon, The Snarl is no threat at all. It becomes a logistics problem. And it is one the OotS is not qualified or able to correct.

The McGuffin is just a McGuffin after all.

And to your point about Xykon having very little page time in DStP: so? How much page time did The Ring have in Book III of The Lord of the Rings, (the first half of The Two Towers.) Is there any doubt that the plot of LotR is Frodo destroys The Ring?

Killing Xykon is not 'branching off'. It is the main plot.

I know the end of this story is coming, but I would love to see many more obstacles, near misses, and almost climaxes keep it going for many years to come.

yes

2023-07-23, 07:19 AM

IThat's what I meant by saying Roy v Xykon is the driver of the plot. It's what keeping the engine in motion. But the plot is also much more than this: it's what happens to the secondary characters and to the world as a whole, and the outcomes of the little battles along the way.
You're correct that all these things are part of the plot. But I think you have the plot drivers backwards.

Most of these sub plots aren't driven by Roy v Xykon. Rather, they're the ones driving the Roy v Xykon plot. The IFCC subplot exists to prevent the story from ending prematurely and maximizing conflict. The purple quiddity/working with the Dark One plot exists to tell us why the God's can't stop Xykon themselves, why it's important that they don't just reset like they always do, and as a consequence of all that, why it's important for the order to stop Xykon. The Order didn't go to Azure city and fight a war to stop Xykon, instead the Azure City plot literally kidnapped the Order as a means of explaining the significance of Xykon and the Gates and to put the order back in his path.

Roy v Xykon isn't driving the plot towards all these other sub plots which explore their own themes and resolve independently. All these secondary sub plots drive Roy v Xykon by telling us why the resolution of that conflict is the most important thing.

The only subplots that don't lead back to Roy v Xykon are the personal character subplots: Elan and his dad, Haley learning to trust people, Durkon learning to be proactive, and Belkar learning to care about others. They all work towards their own, Xykon-independent resolutions. But the other sub plots all lead back to Xykon, even when they start somewhere else, including V's own personal story of ultimate power. But I guess that's why it's appropriate that we're calling it "Roy V Xykon" :D

brian 333

2023-07-23, 10:05 AM

You're correct that all these things are part of the plot. But I think you have the plot drivers backwards.

Most of these sub plots aren't driven by Roy v Xykon. Rather, they're the ones driving the Roy v Xykon plot. The IFCC subplot exists to prevent the story from ending prematurely and maximizing conflict. The purple quiddity/working with the Dark One plot exists to tell us why the God's can't stop Xykon themselves, why it's important that they don't just reset like they always do, and as a consequence of all that, why it's important for the order to stop Xykon. The Order didn't go to Azure city and fight a war to stop Xykon, instead the Azure City plot literally kidnapped the Order as a means of explaining the significance of Xykon and the Gates and to put the order back in his path.

Roy v Xykon isn't driving the plot towards all these other sub plots which explore their own themes and resolve independently. All these secondary sub plots drive Roy v Xykon by telling us why the resolution of that conflict is the most important thing.

The only subplots that don't lead back to Roy v Xykon are the personal character subplots: Elan and his dad, Haley learning to trust people, Durkon learning to be proactive, and Belkar learning to care about others. They all work towards their own, Xykon-independent resolutions. But the other sub plots all lead back to Xykon, even when they start somewhere else, including V's own personal story of ultimate power. But I guess that's why it's appropriate that we're calling it "Roy V Xykon" :D

Thank you for the spoilered post. It is much more eloquent than I have been in my posts.

Redcloak escaping Redmountain with Xykon's phylactery extended a story that could have ended there. We'd have missed out on the Hobgoblin Fort, Miko, and The Oracle.

Miko not destroying the Sapphire would have resulted in Xykon's end, but we'd have missed out on The Resistance, Kubota's Rebellion, the Katos, and Greysky.

Roy could have destroyed Girard's Gate after Xykon entered The Pyramid and blew him to smithereens, along with RC and the phylactery. Then we'd have missed out on Tinkertown, (propeller hats!) The Godsmoot, Hilgya 2.0, (and Kudzu) and Clan Thundershield.

But the suggestion that leaving the North Pole now to go elsewhere for plot-related reasons is met with extreme skepticism.

There were many opportunities for the story to resolve before, yet every time it did not, the result was more complexity and nuance in storytelling, (good things,) more characters and greater detail for the characters we already know, (good things,) more world building and backstory, (good things,) and more years of anticipation and enjoyment, a long with hundreds of additional forum discussions about the story, characters, world, and backstory. (Usually good things!)

So, why would I want that to ever end? Don't get me wrong, I want The Author to tell his story his way, and I know that ultimately his goal is to reach a conclusion. I am in no hurry to get there, though, because I know that with each new page I get more of something I enjoy.

So, as the kid said, "Please, sir, may I have some more?"

Metastachydium

2023-07-23, 11:59 AM

Without Xykon in the game The Snarl is not a threat.

Leaving Redcloak free to do as he wishes to go chasing Xykon is an interesting point: Xykon wouldn't run away if Redcloak is still alive and apparently loyal. However, assume Xykon leaves and Redcloak is still around. Then what?

For The Plan to work, Redcloak needs an intact gate, so he won't destroy it to release The Snarl, (unless he thought he was about to die and the gate was right there.)

The Plan requires a willing arcane caster of epic levels, so if Xykon leaves, The Plan is on hold, at least until he can be replaced.

Absent The Snarl and The Plan, Xykon is still an extreme threat. As was pointed out, he might simply destroy the gate because he was annoyed and felt safe in having a hideaway on the Astral plane.

Absent Xykon, The Snarl is no threat at all. It becomes a logistics problem. And it is one the OotS is not qualified or able to correct.

The McGuffin is just a McGuffin after all.

Nope to most of that. Absent the threat of the Snarl, Xykon is just some powerful dead guy without a plan and the attention span to devise one. Were he to just abandon the Plan now to squat on the Astral, he'd be as much an out-of-context problem of limited relevance as the Vecors.

Redcloak, in the meantime, for instance, is also obscenely powerful, has an agenda of his own, a keen, analytical mind, a whole nation with a whole army fanatically devoted to him, a limited sense of self-preservation, no intention to ever fold it… And is also the world's single best hope of being saved. The Order( and in particular, Durkon) vs. Redcloak is no less important than the Order, let alone Roy vs. Xykon right now, and while the failure of the Plan makes Xykon irrelevant (since without the Snarl, he's not a world ending threat anymore), that's not true for Redcloak. Sorry.

And to your point about Xykon having very little page time in DStP: so? How much page time did The Ring have in Book III of The Lord of the Rings, (the first half of The Two Towers.) Is there any doubt that the plot of LotR is Frodo destroys The Ring?

Ah, so the plot of LotR is Frodo vs. the Ring now, with everything else just window dressing. Good to know.

Killing Xykon is not 'branching off'. It is the main plot.

Insofar as Xykon is still part of the main plot. "**** the world, we'll go on a dungeon crawl to some plane and let the whole Rifts thing resolve itself" is branching off or, at any rate, dumbing the story back down to DCF levels for no good reason.

Tubercular Ox

2023-07-23, 12:41 PM

Ah, so the plot of LotR is Frodo vs. the Ring now

Kinda, yeah.

with everything else just window dressing.

I feel like you added this bit. I don't think brian 333 ever suggested the rest of the plot was window dressing to the extent it's implied here.

But, equal time, my plans to live for the next 20 years have not been approved yet, so I'm fine if this is the Final Dungeon.

brian 333

2023-07-23, 01:21 PM

Nope to most of that. Absent the threat of the Snarl, Xykon is just some powerful dead guy without a plan and the attention span to devise one. Were he to just abandon the Plan now to squat on the Astral, he'd be as much an out-of-context problem of limited relevance as the Vecors.

Bad mischaracterization of Xykon. His goal is to rule the world or destroy it. He would not 'run to the Astral to squat,' but to regenerate, rearm, and attack again.

Redcloak, in the meantime, for instance, is also obscenely powerful, has an agenda of his own, a keen, analytical mind, a whole nation with a whole army fanatically devoted to him, a limited sense of self-preservation, no intention to ever fold it… And is also the world's single best hope of being saved.

And without Xykon he does what? Destroy the gate? The gate he needs for The Plan? Or does he use his mighty army to... what? Abandon Gobbotopia to march to The North Pole? Start a war with all the surrounding human cities?

Whatever Redcloak does, (until he can get another epic arcanist on his team,) does not include destroying the world. Redcloak represents an opportunity to save the world, and would otherwise be a local problem if he can't be convinced to be a part of the solution.

If Redcloak attacks using his army, he becomes a temporary problem as the surrounding nations gang up on his mighty army.

Without Xykon, Redcloak is not a threat to existence. He's an annoyingly powerful evil NPC, but The Plan is on indefinite hold until Xykon is replaced.

The Order( and in particular, Durkon) vs. Redcloak is no less important than the Order, let alone Roy vs. Xykon right now, and while the failure of the Plan makes Xykon irrelevant (since without the Snarl, he's not a world ending threat anymore), that's not true for Redcloak. Sorry.

With Xykon still animate and active, the world has weeks at best. He will either do The Ritual or blow it all up.

With Xykon destroyed, the world has years in a worst case scenario. Even without Redcloak's cooperation, temporary rift patches could be placed, giving yet more years, and these can be made teleport-proof. Redcloak's army cannot stop anything at the rifts they don't guard, and they only have enough army to guard one rift.

Durkon vs. Redcloak is not even required. With Xykon gone, those who can actually create a new gate need only offer to help Redcloak to seal the one over Gobbotopia before it eats his city and his army. (Note: best guess is that neither Durkon not Vaarsuvius is high enough level to create a gate.)

Ah, so the plot of LotR is Frodo vs. the Ring now, with everything else just window dressing. Good to know.

Now I am curious: what did you think it was about? It was never about anything else but the ring's power to corrupt the mightiest in Middle Earth vs. the homey incorruptibility of English yoemanry an humble hobbit

Insofar as Xykon is still part of the main plot. "**** the world, we'll go on a dungeon crawl to some plane and let the whole Rifts thing resolve itself" is branching off...

Okay, suppose Xykon goes away to hide and never intends to do anything else. What does the party do?

Convince Redcloak to help? Why would he? He has the phylactery, and can get Xykon back in the game, so The Plan is still viable.

Reconquer Azure City? With what army, and to what purpose? They would control a pile of debris under a growing rift, through which The Snarl can reach at will to unmake whatever it wants.

What, exactly, could The Order accomplish while Xykon still exists?

And I have still not seen anything The Order would be needed for after Xykon is destroyed. They can't build gates, they can't retake Azure City, they can't resolve the whole rifts thing. Find me something that The Order is needed for after Xykon is destroyed.

dumbing the story back down to DCF levels for no good reason.

Was there any good reason to not end the story at DCF? It could have been done and over with right there, with Redcloak buried 'forever' beneath Redmountain in the collapsed tunnels, with Xykon's phylactery crushed by a rock. There was no good reason, at that point, for NCftPB.

But it was fun.

And there was no reason for Miko to happen by and prevent Soon from destroying both Redcloak and Xykon. There was no reason, at that point, for DStP.

But it was fantastic.

And there were plenty of good reasons Roy should not have destroyed Girard's gate, or at least to lure Xykon and Redcloak inside the pyramid before he did so that they, and Xykon's phylactery, would have been destroyed in the resulting explosion. There was no need to go into UD.

But it was awesome.

So, what makes you think that, if The Author takes us on a ride to Xykon's Astral Fortress, (or anywhere else,) that it would require 'dumbing the story down?'

If he chooses to go there, there will be a compelling reason, (much as there was to go after Durkon in UD or to go to Greysky in DStP,) and there will be character and plot developments along the way, (such as meeting Shojo and Thor,) which make the trip worthwhile.

(I can think of an excellent reason: I suspect the only two known gate-makers are in Xykon's Astral Fortress, locked inside a soul gem.)

While I respect your opinion that the story's end is near and your anxiousness to get to it, I don't share it. For me, a story's end is just that. The fun is over. The best stories are the worst in that: captivated by the tale, I read on and on until I run out of story. Then, with no more to read, nothing new to come, nothing left of the world in which I was immersed, I go back to a duller, less exciting, more tedious real world.

Tzardok

2023-07-23, 03:04 PM

brian 333

2023-07-23, 05:45 PM

Yes, if it looked to Redcloak like he'd lose, he'd destroy the gate. Don't forget, he believes that in that case TDO would survive into the next world ensure that future goblins had it better.

I acknowledged this possibility. However, if The Plan is still possible or if he does not have access to the Final Gate™, what does he do?

He has to punt and go on defense until he can get the ball back. If Xykon is destroyed, it might take years for RC to get another arcane caster to Epic levels.

And what if in those weeks Redcloak was convinced to abandon the plan and help the Order shore reality up? Suddenly the rifts are patched, and the gate is not needed anymore. If Xykan was a bad loser and broked the gate afterward, nothing would happen. His "destroy the world" threat would be rendered impotent.

This is the preferred possibility. However, RC has already rejected this offer. Something has to change before he is going to accept this offer. Durkon is not Sam I Am: repeating the same offer is unlikely to convince Redcloak to eat his green eggs and ham. So, what could change to make Durkon's offer more tempting?

Metastachydium

2023-07-24, 06:50 AM

You missuse out-of-context problem. An OOC is something that you lack the context to properly deal with. For example, if suddenly a creature entered the world that worked on, I dunno, World of Darkness or Exalted rules instead of D&D, that would be an OOC.

…
That's absolutely correct, and I have no idea why I did that. Thanks.

Bad mischaracterization of Xykon. His goal is to rule the world or destroy it. He would not 'run to the Astral to squat,' but to regenerate, rearm, and attack again.

Come again?
1. He can't regenerate on the Astral;
2. there's no indication that he stores magic items there, and at any rate, he doesn't like to rely much on anything other than his own power, always on; and
3. rule the world or destroy it? That's bovine excrement. Xykon never, EVER once expressed an intent to destroy the world (unless he got really bored, but being deprived of the world would make him more, rather than less bored on the shortest run). He likes it, in fact (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html). And he wouldn't risk getting destroyed himself. He likes to exist even more.

And without Xykon he does what? Destroy the gate? The gate he needs for The Plan? Or does he use his mighty army to... what? Abandon Gobbotopia to march to The North Pole? Start a war with all the surrounding human cities?

Whatever Redcloak does, (until he can get another epic arcanist on his team,) does not include destroying the world. Redcloak represents an opportunity to save the world, and would otherwise be a local problem if he can't be convinced to be a part of the solution.

If Redcloak attacks using his army, he becomes a temporary problem as the surrounding nations gang up on his mighty army.

Without Xykon, Redcloak is not a threat to existence. He's an annoyingly powerful evil NPC, but The Plan is on indefinite hold until Xykon is replaced.

Redcloak is not Xykon. In fact,
1. contrary to a claim you made somewhere… Below, I think? He doesn't need an epic spellcaster. He only needs Xykon, specifically, for psychological reasons and because he's already there;
2. Redcloak is a fatalist with nothing to lose. Xykon can only lose with destroying the world; this is why he never really intended to do that. For Redcloak, destroying the world if the Plan fails has always been Plan B. He knows Xykon is a gamble. He made contingencies to mitigate that risk factor. But he also knows the Plan can fail regardless. And he made his peace with it.

So, no. Without Redcloak, Xykon is an annoyingly powerful Evil NPC. Without Xykon, Redcloak is a loose cannon who'll either break down or try to break the world, according to the Plan (B). And the heroes will still have to try and preserve his life then, because they need him.

With Xykon still animate and active, the world has weeks at best. He will either do The Ritual or blow it all up.

Again, [citation needed].

With Xykon destroyed, the world has years in a worst case scenario.

Not true. See above, on Plan B.

Even without Redcloak's cooperation, temporary rift patches could be placed, giving yet more years, and these can be made teleport-proof.

In theory, yes; in practice, the only people who knew how to do that were epic level and are both dead and missing. And even they don't know what, exactly, the backdoor Big Purple exploited even was, so far as the reader can tell.

Durkon vs. Redcloak is not even required. With Xykon gone, those who can actually create a new gate need only offer to help Redcloak to seal the one over Gobbotopia before it eats his city and his army. (Note: best guess is that neither Durkon not Vaarsuvius is high enough level to create a gate.)

Again, that assumes a 13th level Cleric and a 16th level Wizard can trivially reproduce a unique procedure devised by and known only to a pair of dead epic spellcasters. Those are some big assumptions.

Now I am curious: what did you think it was about? It was never about anything else but the ring's power to corrupt the mightiest in Middle Earth vs. the homey incorruptibility of English yoemanry an humble hobbit

That, and his gardener being the actually incorruptible one, and Fate, with Gollum and Aragorn struggling with it… And other things as well.

Okay, suppose Xykon goes away to hide and never intends to do anything else. What does the party do?

Convince Redcloak to help? Why would he? He has the phylactery, and can get Xykon back in the game, so The Plan is still viable.

If Xykon quits, owning the phylactery does jack. He learned that lesson long ago, in SoD. So, Plan B. He gets stupidly dangerous. Should the party leave him alone to go on a merry lich hunting? When the lich decided he doesn't care anymore? Sounds eminently wise.

What, exactly, could The Order accomplish while Xykon still exists?

Make him irrelevant forever, with some luck. I don't expect that will happen (I don't expect he'll quit and run off, for starters), but it's entirely possible.

And I have still not seen anything The Order would be needed for after Xykon is destroyed. They can't build gates, they can't retake Azure City, they can't resolve the whole rifts thing. Find me something that The Order is needed for after Xykon is destroyed.

That depends on where Redcloak is at that point.

Was there any good reason to not end the story at DCF? It could have been done and over with right there, with Redcloak buried 'forever' beneath Redmountain in the collapsed tunnels, with Xykon's phylactery crushed by a rock. There was no good reason, at that point, for NCftPB.

But it was fun.

And there was no reason for Miko to happen by and prevent Soon from destroying both Redcloak and Xykon. There was no reason, at that point, for DStP.

But it was fantastic.

And there were plenty of good reasons Roy should not have destroyed Girard's gate, or at least to lure Xykon and Redcloak inside the pyramid before he did so that they, and Xykon's phylactery, would have been destroyed in the resulting explosion. There was no need to go into UD.

But it was awesome.

So, what makes you think that, if The Author takes us on a ride to Xykon's Astral Fortress, (or anywhere else,) that it would require 'dumbing the story down?'

If he chooses to go there, there will be a compelling reason, (much as there was to go after Durkon in UD or to go to Greysky in DStP,) and there will be character and plot developments along the way, (such as meeting Shojo and Thor,) which make the trip worthwhile.

All those times, the stakes got higher and the game more complex. Putting the quest to save the world and stop the cycle aside and going on a dungeon crawl to defeat some skeletal guy… I just don't know what could make that an interesting climax after the previous 6 books happened.

(I can think of an excellent reason: I suspect the only two known gate-makers are in Xykon's Astral Fortress, locked inside a soul gem.)

Nice theory, and I mean that! I expect the gem will be revisited, so: granted, but PREDICTION: the solution will not involve replacing the Gates with new Gates.

While I respect your opinion that the story's end is near and your anxiousness to get to it, I don't share it. For me, a story's end is just that. The fun is over. The best stories are the worst in that: captivated by the tale, I read on and on until I run out of story. Then, with no more to read, nothing new to come, nothing left of the world in which I was immersed, I go back to a duller, less exciting, more tedious real world.

And I can respect that. It makes me think of that oft-quoted remark of Tolkien's about escapism, which I really like, melancholy as it may be. I'll miss this a lot, if/when we get there. But I'm sure [the room darkens] [i]t'll all be worth it. You'll see (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html).

brian 333

2023-07-24, 08:32 AM

…
That's absolutely correct, and I have no idea why I did that. Thanks.

Come again?
1. He can't regenerate on the Astral;
2. there's no indication that he stores magic items there, and at any rate, he doesn't like to rely much on anything other than his own power, always on; and
3. rule the world or destroy it? That's bovine excrement. Xykon never, EVER once expressed an intent to destroy the world (unless he got really bored, but being deprived of the world would make him more, rather than less bored on the shortest run). He likes it, in fact (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html). And he wouldn't risk getting destroyed himself. He likes to exist even more.

Redcloak is not Xykon. In fact,
1. contrary to a claim you made somewhere… Below, I think? He doesn't need an epic spellcaster. He only needs Xykon, specifically, for psychological reasons and because he's already there;
2. Redcloak is a fatalist with nothing to lose. Xykon can only lose with destroying the world; this is why he never really intended to do that. For Redcloak, destroying the world if the Plan fails has always been Plan B. He knows Xykon is a gamble. He made contingencies to mitigate that risk factor. But he also knows the Plan can fail regardless. And he made his peace with it.

So, no. Without Redcloak, Xykon is an annoyingly powerful Evil NPC. Without Xykon, Redcloak is a loose cannon who'll either break down or try to break the world, according to the Plan (B). And the heroes will still have to try and preserve his life then, because they need him.

Again, [citation needed].

Not true. See above, on Plan B.

In theory, yes; in practice, the only people who knew how to do that were epic level and are both dead and missing. And even they don't know what, exactly, the backdoor Big Purple exploited even was, so far as the reader can tell.

Again, that assumes a 13th level Cleric and a 16th level Wizard can trivially reproduce a unique procedure devised by and known only to a pair of dead epic spellcasters. Those are some big assumptions.

That, and his gardener being the actually incorruptible one, and Fate, with Gollum and Aragorn struggling with it… And other things as well.

If Xykon quits, owning the phylactery does jack. He learned that lesson long ago, in SoD. So, Plan B. He gets stupidly dangerous. Should the party leave him alone to go on a merry lich hunting? When the lich decided he doesn't care anymore? Sounds eminently wise.

Make him irrelevant forever, with some luck. I don't expect that will happen (I don't expect he'll quit and run off, for starters), but it's entirely possible.

That depends on where Redcloak is at that point.

All those times, the stakes got higher and the game more complex. Putting the quest to save the world and stop the cycle aside and going on a dungeon crawl to defeat some skeletal guy… I just don't know what could make that an interesting climax after the previous 6 books happened.

Nice theory, and I mean that! I expect the gem will be revisited, so: granted, but PREDICTION: the solution will not involve replacing the Gates with new Gates.

And I can respect that. It makes me think of that oft-quoted remark of Tolkien's about escapism, which I really like, melancholy as it may be. I'll miss this a lot, if/when we get there. But I'm sure [the room darkens] [i]t'll all be worth it. You'll see (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html).

If Xykon can't regenerate on the Astral Plane, why did he hide his phylactery there? To trap himself forever?

The Astral Fortress was supposed to secure Xykon's phylactery, so there is absolutely evidence that he wanted to store something there. Why would he not store excess junk there as well?

If Xykon can't get what he wants, what does he do? This gate is literally his last shot. Do you suppose he is just going to wander away when he realizes The Ritual does not give him control over the gate? "Oh well, I failed to gain the power to rule the world. Who wants tacos?"

Where is Redcloak's backup caster? Why wasn't he working with that guy when Xykon was gone? Who have we seen who might fill the role? To say Redcloak does not need Xykon is to ignore the entire comic to date and insert a character never foreshadowed to exist. Replacing Xykon will not be easy. It would require years to do.

Plan B was never a thing until Durkon told RC that The Gods were going to destroy the world about an hour ago. Also, Plan B relies upon Plan A being unachievable, which it will not be so long as Xykon is around.

Redcloak never planned to destroy the world. The whole purpose of the Astral Fortress is to allow Xykon to survive the world's destruction. Which of them is more likely to pull the plug?

As I have pointed out, several times, I do not think The Order can build new gates. Not even temporary ones. I also never suggested they should. That would be a job for others. Lirian and Dorukon come to mind, but that would require obtaining the soul gems. Arindarius may or may not be capable. Remember, my thesis is that others handle the 'loose ends' while The Order goes after Xykon, so pointing out that there is a loose end The Order is incapable of tying up only supports my thesis.

And where does the idea that they should leave Redcloak alone come from? Redcloak has lots of NPC issues to deal with. While the OotS is out chasing the lich, Team O'Chul can deal with RC, or any of a host of other possible candidates. Hilgya, for example, might be a better messenger than Durkon. In fact, almost anyone would be a better messenger than Durkon. Durkon does not have to be the one to convince Redcloak to cooperate!

On the other hand, only Roy or Julia can resolve the Blood Oath, and Julia is many years away from being a contender.

So, we still have not found something that The Order of the Stick and only The Order of the Stick can or must do to tie up any loose end plot. The only plot that they are the only ones who can resolve is The Blood Oath. All the rest rely upon NPCs and The Order's absence will not matter to their resolution.

So, Mr. Author, take us around this roller coaster one more time!

Peelee

2023-07-24, 09:16 AM

The Astral Fortress was supposed to secure Xykon's phylactery, so there is absolutely evidence that he wanted to store something there. Why would he not store excess junk there as well?
The Astral Fortress is supposed to hide the phylactery behind a hundred spells and traps and whatever (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html). At no point does he say or indicate it's for anything other than safeguarding the phylactery. You can believe whatever you want, but that theory has no basis in the comic.

Plan B was never a thing until Durkon told RC that The Gods were going to destroy the world about an hour ago.
Plan B was a thing since fairly early in Start of Darkness, and was implied to be a thing since before Redcloak first put on the Crimson Mantle decades ago. You are objectively wrong here.

Redcloak never planned to destroy the world.
See above. I don't know if it's accurate to say he has planned it, but that has been an acceptable outcome since long before the Order of the Stick ever met Xykon.

The whole purpose of the Astral Fortress is to allow Xykon to survive the world's destruction
As linked above, no, it is not. The whole purpose of the Astral Fortress is to hide the phylactery, guard against intrusions, and alert Xykon if anyone tries. He tells us this point blank. He does not say anything about surviving the destruction of the world.

Which of them is more likely to pull the plug?
Redcloak.

Metastachydium

2023-07-24, 09:18 AM

If Xykon can't regenerate on the Astral Plane, why did he hide his phylactery there? To trap himself forever?

That's not the issue. The issue is, the phylactery isn't there. He won't go there to regenerate simply because if he needs to regenerate his body, having lost it, he won't end up in the fortress. He'll end up wherever Red put the original.

The Astral Fortress was supposed to secure Xykon's phylactery, so there is absolutely evidence that he wanted to store something there. Why would he not store excess junk there as well?

That's eminently plausible (who builds a dungeon that doesn't contain loot, after all?), but still a conjecture.

If Xykon can't get what he wants, what does he do? This gate is literally his last shot. Do you suppose he is just going to wander away when he realizes The Ritual does not give him control over the gate? "Oh well, I failed to gain the power to rule the world. Who wants tacos?"

Throw a tantrum and fly of to destroy Gobbotopia, perhaps. At any rate, for someone who values his continued existence and that of a world he can inflict pain upon for his own amusement above all, "I'll destroy the world and trap myself forever on an empty plane if I can get away" sounds somehow less likely a reaction than even tacos.

Plan B was never a thing until Durkon told RC that The Gods were going to destroy the world about an hour ago. Also, Plan B relies upon Plan A being unachievable, which it will not be so long as Xykon is around.

Redcloak never planned to destroy the world.

I recommend rereading p. 48 of SoD, if that's what you think is the case. It was always Plan B, from well before the main comic. And even if it had not been (which is demonstrably false), we have available online and for free an explicit statement from Redcloak that he considers Plan B a win. Where's your proof that Xykon wants to destroy the world? When did he say that? I accept strip and page numbers, quotes from commentary – anything official, really.

The whole purpose of the Astral Fortress is to allow Xykon to survive the world's destruction.

[Citation needed], once again. The only stated purpose of the Fortress is to safeguard the phylactery after Redcloak failed to do so (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html).

Which of them is more likely to pull the plug?

The guy who explicitly considered that a win from before Day 1 or the guy who explicitly doesn't want to destroy the world? Hm. Let me think… I'll go with the former, which is Redcloak.

As I have pointed out, several times, I do not think The Order can build new gates. Not even temporary ones. I also never suggested they should. That would be a job for others. Lirian and Dorukon come to mind, but that would require obtaining the soul gems. Arindarius may or may not be capable. Remember, my thesis is that others handle the 'loose ends' while The Order goes after Xykon, so pointing out that there is a loose end The Order is incapable of tying up only supports my thesis.

So your thesis is that saving the world is a loose end, all exposition on actually saving the world is a red herring and the real plot is some random personal scuffle? I don't like your thesis. And, PREDICTION, once again: the solution will not include replacing the Gates with new Gates.

And where does the idea that they should leave Redcloak alone come from? Redcloak has lots of NPC issues to deal with. While the OotS is out chasing the lich, Team O'Chul can deal with RC, or any of a host of other possible candidates. Hilgya, for example, might be a better messenger than Durkon. In fact, almost anyone would be a better messenger than Durkon. Durkon does not have to be the one to convince Redcloak to cooperate!

There's only two people we know even care: Roy and Durkon. And the notion that one of the two main villains and the Plan, the only reason why Xykon even is a potential world-ending threat is so tertiary in importance that some recurring shmuck such as Hilgya should handle it off-panel is something that I find simply baffling.

On the other hand, only Roy or Julia can resolve the Blood Oath, and Julia is many years away from being a contender.

So, we still have not found something that The Order of the Stick and only The Order of the Stick can or must do to tie up any loose end plot. The only plot that they are the only ones who can resolve is The Blood Oath.

And? Who cares? There's no expiration date on one of those, as Xykon wisely remarked; it can't stop Roy from entering Celestia (we have seen that); and the only issue it not getting resolved precipitates is Eugene not getting a proper afterlife (oh, gosh, the horror!).

EDIT: …and the big, shiny dragon somehow managed to sneak past me!

Tubercular Ox

2023-07-24, 09:20 AM

To say Redcloak does not need Xykon is to ignore the entire comic to date and insert a character never foreshadowed to exist.

So, Mr. Author, take us around this roller coaster one more time!

I definitely feel like we're having two conversations at once at this point. OT1H, Rich has to foreshadow a successor to Xykon or it's ignoring the entire comic to date to have one, OTOH, having already seen the final potion seller selling basic potions, and Elan trademarking it the Final Dungeon, it isn't foreshadowing sufficient enough to discourage another trip around the roller coaster.

I feel plot analysis on the one side and personal preference for storytelling on the other. Are we mixing them intentionally?

gbaji

2023-07-24, 12:55 PM

I feel like folks are missing what Rich was talking about. It's story telling elements. What makes a story a story? When we use terms like protagonist, antagonist, plot, twists, mcguffins, etc, that's what we're talking about. This doesn't mean that we can't "care about" other things, but that they are not necessary to the story or the resolution of that story.

Xykon exists, problems never get solved.

Xykon destroyed, problems solved with trivial ease.

Wrong criteria. Does Xykon existing or being destroyed tell the story of the Order of the Stick? Arguably, "Xykon Destroyed" is clearly a huge part of "Order's story is completed" (or at least "this story", right?). But it is not remotely the only bump on the way to completing that story. In story writing, you tend to want to have the various elements of the story converge at the end into a single conflict point (or shortish series of such), so as to resolve them. Having Xykon flee to his Astral Fortress, and the Order pursue him, while perhaps fulfilling some fanservice needs, doesn't do anything for the actual story. It's a divergence, not a convergence. Which is "bad".

The gates? Loki, Rat, Tiamat, and TDO can do that.

The IFCC? Xykon off the table renders their plots pointless, unless they can create a new and improved Xylon 2.0

Rich is writing the story of the Order of the Stick. Not "the gods solve a problem, and other NPCS solve other problems". You are viewing this from an "efficient problem solving" point of view. But Rich is writing this from a story telling point of view. Which means that the main plots are going to be resolved by the main protagonists (the Order).

This means that the threat the snarl represents to the world will be resolved by the Order. Which also means that Xykon will be destroyed by the Order (and very likely by Roy's hand, cause... reasons). It means that the rifts/gates will be sealed or otherwise neutralized as a threat by the Order (exact method still to be determined). It means that whatever actions they take will also thwart The Plan. And yes, whatever manipulations being done by the IFCC will be directly thwarted by the Order.

Running off to chase Xykon in his Fortress while other people deal with those other things will not happen.

Name a plot branch and remove Xykon. Then reexamine that plot point. You will discover that all, literally all, of them resolve without the Order doing anything at all.

I'm not sure I agree, but rather than argue that (again), let's assume you are correct. I'm just not sure why you think this would make for a better story.

...which is another thing Rich got wrong, in my opinion. If there is a "we" that cares about Yavin 4 only because the protagonists are on it, then, as Kish would say, I am happy not to be included in that "we". Same for the world in OOTS.

It's not about whether we "care about" something, but whether it's critical to the plot of the story. Alderaan is destroyed during the same story, right? Yet, it's destruction doesn't mean that the heroes lose, and the story is over. Let's imagine that Yavin4 was a rebel base, but not the one with our heroes in it. Just a hyperspace stop along the way to.... um... Blavin7, where they actually are. If the Death Star stops and destroys Yavin4, and then proceeds to Blavin7, and we otherwise have the exact same resolution at that location, is the story any different at the end? No. It's not (well, except for perhaps the unecessary extra screen time taken along the way).

That's what Rich was talking about. How you construct good stories. Yes. Both the audience and the protagonists care about the Death Star destroying planets. Any planet. But the needs of the plot only requres that the planet that our heroes are sitting on not be destroyed. If, again, that's the objective of the story. It's possible to invert that thoough (Rogue One does this). But that story works *only* because we know about the events in ANH, and this becomes the lead up (ie: yet another Alderaan destroyed along the way), to the "main story" of the heroes of the OT fighting and defeating the Empire. In Rogue One the objective wasn't "save ourselves", but "get the plans to the rebellion".

If Xykon can't get what he wants, what does he do? This gate is literally his last shot. Do you suppose he is just going to wander away when he realizes The Ritual does not give him control over the gate? "Oh well, I failed to gain the power to rule the world. Who wants tacos?"

Actually, that's probably exactly what he would do. It's academnic anyway, because you are correct and Xykon will be destroyed as part of the resolution of the main plot. But the "resolution of the main plot" is the threat of the gates/rifts/snarl. Thus, Xykon will be fought and destroyed in context and proximity to those things, not in some disconnected conflict on the astral plane later on.

But I think you are really narrow focusing "what Xykon wants". Xykon wants power. He want to use that power (preferably to commit random violence and death). Well. He's already got a lot of it. And can do a lot of that violence and death stuff already. The entire plan with the gates was just to gain more power for himself. The moment he realizes it's not a source of power he can use, I suspect his interest in the gates and the rifts will just disappear. Why on earth would he destroy them (I mean, he could... cause.. Chaotic Evil, right?)? But if he does, then there's no one left for him to inflict violence and death upon with the amount of power he does have.

I don't discount him maybe choosing to attempt to destroy the last gate in anger in the moment. But that would be in the moment. If he ever "retreats to the astral fortreess", and the gate is intact? The odds of him deciding on his own to travel back there and destroy it are virtually zero. He'd just go somewhere else and go do evil stuff there instead. Point being he's not really a threat to end the world at that point. Eh.... It's a silly discussion because it's just not something that's likely to happen in the first place.

And yes. As several people have pointed out, Redcloak is far more likely to do the "destroy the world if The Plan can't succeed" than Xykon. Everything Xykon actually wants to do requires there be a world for him to do it in. Redcloak's plans are much more ideological. And if he believes that TDO will be able to make things better for goblins in the next world, he very well may just destroy this one (and he's as much as said exactly this).

On the other hand, only Roy or Julia can resolve the Blood Oath, and Julia is many years away from being a contender.

So, we still have not found something that The Order of the Stick and only The Order of the Stick can or must do to tie up any loose end plot. The only plot that they are the only ones who can resolve is The Blood Oath. All the rest rely upon NPCs and The Order's absence will not matter to their resolution.

So, Mr. Author, take us around this roller coaster one more time!

Except that Mr. Author has told us directly that this is the final book in this story. It's not going to end with "Xykon destroyed, and we've got years and years to fix all the other problems we left hanging". That's just not going to happen.

KorvinStarmast

2023-07-24, 01:53 PM

As I watch this back and forth proceeding, I'd like to point out that a graphic novel (which OotS certainly is, as a whole) is a visual means of story telling as well as a narrative one. I will thus point to the opening panels of Book VII (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1190.html). The strands of the ball of yarn, the snarl, and the strands of the various plot threads are all intertwined. That's a visual hint, as I see it. (yes, pun intended).

Xykon versus Roy is entangled with World and gods Under Threat yet again from Snarl is entangled with Redcloak's Plan (and his potential nihilistic response if that plan becomes unachievable) which means that Redcloak's plan is entangled with Xykon by necessity and the IFCC's intereference with all of that is an additional entanglement whose details are at the moment opaque. (There are other threads, but the Resolution of those various threads do not impact this discusion).

This is tied into the broader issue that Xykon has little agency in the story despite being nominally the big bad. Xykon is a character who is all about Power (Gee, where have we seen that before) and his hunger for power is accompanied by a massive selfish streak. His desire to leverage the threat of the Snarl as another means of applying power, his own personal power against {pick the target} includes a few wrinkles and snarls regarding how it plays out if his assumptions are on shaky ground. That there are flaws in his understanding does not mean that he has no agency. His entire character arc in the published, on line, content is as a catalyst who drives the plot via his choices, or (as they dawdled in Azure City) his decision to not make a choice until a catalyzing event. Xykon has agency.

Without Xykon in the game The Snarl is not a threat. I think that the gods, all of them, would disagree with you, given how many millions of worlds they have had to build over the millennia to yet again put the Snarl back into its cage - literally.

Xykon is just some powerful dead guy without a plan and the attention span to devise one. Indeed. It takes the catalyst called Redcloak to get him to have a goal / objective (as SoD illustrated) but now that he has a goal, he is pursuing it in his own idiosyncratic, chaotic fashion.

If Xykon can't regenerate on the Astral Plane, why did he hide his phylactery there? To trap himself forever? To protect it. I don't think it is any more complicated than that. (Hmm, that's a summary of Peelee's point, I guess).

Peelee

2023-07-24, 02:11 PM

To protect it. I don't think it is any more complicated than that. (Hmm, that's a summary of Peelee's point, I guess).

Brevity is the soul of wit. :smallwink:

brian 333

2023-07-24, 02:57 PM

The Astral Fortress is supposed to hide the phylactery behind a hundred spells and traps and whatever (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html). At no point does he say or indicate it's for anything other than safeguarding the phylactery. You can believe whatever you want, but that theory has no basis in the comic.

Plan B was a thing since fairly early in Start of Darkness, and was implied to be a thing since before Redcloak first put on the Crimson Mantle decades ago. You are objectively wrong here.

See above. I don't know if it's accurate to say he has planned it, but that has been an acceptable outcome since long before the Order of the Stick ever met Xykon.

Having never read Start of Darkness, I rely on what is in the online comic. To my knowledge, the first online discussion of Plan B occurs when Durkon talks to Redcloak.

However, with that said, new information accepted, and a new analysis is required.

As linked above, no, it is not. The whole purpose of the Astral Fortress is to hide the phylactery, guard against intrusions, and alert Xykon if anyone tries. He tells us this point blank. He does not say anything about surviving the destruction of the world.

Redcloak.

Okay. Xykon plans to survive. Does he specify what he intends to survive, or why he chose to survive on the Astral Plane?

I definitely feel like we're having two conversations at once at this point. OT1H, Rich has to foreshadow a successor to Xykon or it's ignoring the entire comic to date to have one, OTOH, having already seen the final potion seller selling basic potions, and Elan trademarking it the Final Dungeon, it isn't foreshadowing sufficient enough to discourage another trip around the roller coaster.

I feel plot analysis on the one side and personal preference for storytelling on the other. Are we mixing them intentionally?

I admit that I do see The End coming, and it is all too soon for my preferences. In saying so I was challenged by several posters. I showed why The End does not have to come here and now. I showed that the conflict that matters is not 'save the world,' but 'destroy Xykon.' I expect others to hold different views.

And my challenge stands: aside from Roy vs. Xykon, find a dangling plot thread that requires that The Order solve it.

Brevity is the soul of wit. :smallwink:

In my case, obstinacy is the soul of halfwits!

Metastachydium

2023-07-24, 03:10 PM

I admit that I do see The End coming, and it is all too soon for my preferences. In saying so I was challenged by several posters. I showed why The End does not have to come here and now. I showed that the conflict that matters is not 'save the world,' but 'destroy Xykon.' I expect others to hold different views.

And my challenge stands: aside from Roy vs. Xykon, find a dangling plot thread that requires that The Order solve it.

Once more: if saving the world and defeating Xykon are separate issues, all that's at stake and, according to you, needs the Order to sort out is sending Eugene off to the afterlife. But Eugene amply deserves what he got, so resolving his Blood Oath carries little weight narratively or emotionally. Therefore, if you are correct, the Order may as well die to the last humanoid in the next strip and All Shall Be Fine.

Sir_Norbert

2023-07-24, 03:52 PM

And my challenge stands: aside from Roy vs. Xykon, find a dangling plot thread that requires that The Order solve it.

You are asking for an irrelevancy.

We (by which I mean I and the others in this thread who agree with me) are arguing that the Order will end up resolving most of the major dangling plot threads as part of the big climax that the story is now working towards, because right now it looks like Rich is bringing the various threads and mysteries together while keeping them unresolved as long as possible to keep the tension mounting.

Will. Not "are required to". Will.

It's certainly possible to come up with other scenarios for how the story will develop. We just don't think that these other scenarios are what is going to happen.

So, what makes you think that, if The Author takes us on a ride to Xykon's Astral Fortress, (or anywhere else,) that it would require 'dumbing the story down?'

Because the gates have been set up as the central thing that the characters are fighting over. There is only one left. Both teams are converging on it. The mystery of the nature of the world within the Snarl is one of the balls Rich is juggling, and it is much more satisfying if the balls are all kept in the air together until one big climax.

For me, a story's end is just that. The fun is over. The best stories are the worst in that: captivated by the tale, I read on and on until I run out of story. Then, with no more to read, nothing new to come, nothing left of the world in which I was immersed, I go back to a duller, less exciting, more tedious real world.

I mean... that's true for me too, and I suspect for many of us. (There are forms of post-story enjoyment, like talking about it with other fans or engaging with fan fiction, but they are not the same as the big excitement of following the story while it's in progress.)

All the same, as I said in the other topic, it is because there is a definite destination in mind, and because it's clear that we are getting closer and closer, that the story right now is as exciting and engaging as it is.

brian 333

2023-07-24, 06:35 PM

Once more: if saving the world and defeating Xykon are separate issues, all that's at stake and, according to you, needs the Order to sort out is sending Eugene off to the afterlife. But Eugene amply deserves what he got, so resolving his Blood Oath carries little weight narratively or emotionally. Therefore, if you are correct, the Order may as well die to the last humanoid in the next strip and All Shall Be Fine.

See, that's not it.

You separated saving the world vs destroying Xykon. I'm saying they are the same thing.

The Order, to the best of my knowledge, cannot seal the rifts. Even with Redcloak's cooperation they lack the knowledge and the levels. The order cannot resolve Gobbotopia's future. The Order cannot materially affect any of the dangling plot threads, except the one involving Xykon.

Even separating Redcloak from a(n un)living Xykon only delays things. Redcloak can always try for a reunion tour.

In order to 'save the world' The Order must destroy Xykon and not kill Redcloak. If they accomplish nothing more than that, the story is over. NPCs seal the rifts, NPCs resolve Gobbotopia vs Azure City, NPCs deal with the Western Continent, and the members of The Order with personal story issues go back to their lives.

abadguy

2023-07-24, 10:17 PM

i've been reading this from the start, survived a stroke and still reading this. I also hope to see it to the end

Metastachydium

2023-07-25, 04:44 AM

See, that's not it.

You separated saving the world vs destroying Xykon. I'm saying they are the same thing.

The Order, to the best of my knowledge, cannot seal the rifts. Even with Redcloak's cooperation they lack the knowledge and the levels. The order cannot resolve Gobbotopia's future. The Order cannot materially affect any of the dangling plot threads, except the one involving Xykon.

Even separating Redcloak from a(n un)living Xykon only delays things. Redcloak can always try for a reunion tour.

In order to 'save the world' The Order must destroy Xykon and not kill Redcloak. If they accomplish nothing more than that, the story is over. NPCs seal the rifts, NPCs resolve Gobbotopia vs Azure City, NPCs deal with the Western Continent, and the members of The Order with personal story issues go back to their lives.

Okay, this is even worse. Putting aside how most ways in which Redcloak and Xykon could be separated make a happy reunion unlikely… What do you mean? Is the Order too incompetent to meaningfully affect the plot in other ways? So they need to get Xykon as a consolation price? Because they might be able to do it and can't do anything else? I have to wonder: why not just let some NPC handle Xykon as well?

Precure

2023-07-25, 06:03 AM

The Order, to the best of my knowledge, cannot seal the rifts. Even with Redcloak's cooperation they lack the knowledge and the levels.

If only Dorukan and Lirian were here...

The order cannot resolve Gobbotopia's future.

Honestly, they don't need to do.

brian 333

2023-07-25, 08:39 AM

Okay, this is even worse. Putting aside how most ways in which Redcloak and Xykon could be separated make a happy reunion unlikely… What do you mean? Is the Order too incompetent to meaningfully affect the plot in other ways? So they need to get Xykon as a consolation price? Because they might be able to do it and can't do anything else? I have to wonder: why not just let some NPC handle Xykon as well?

I'm sorry, but I do not understand this post.

Xykon and Redcloak have separated and reunited before, yet you cannot imagine it now? They don't like each other, their affair is purely motivated by power.

Is The Order too incompetent? Heck of a bias in word choice, there, but in the end, yes. The Order lacks the ability to create new gates, or to seal rifts. They lack both the knowledge and the levels. Either they have to acquire those or they have to find someone already equipped to do so.

Xykon is not a consolation prize. He is the actual goal.

Minas Tirith could have fallen and the Final Battle could have taken place at Isingard rather than The Gates of Mordor. So long as The One Ring ended up in the lava, the story would have been completed.

Faramir didn't need to marry Eowyn, or even survive.

Pippin doesn't have to help kill a Nazgul.

Gimli and Legolas do not have to become friends.

None of that has anything to do with getting The Ring to Mt. Doom. And Frodo is incompetent to affect any of those things.

So, confusing supporting elements, world building, and social statements with The Plot is common in the critique of literature. But none of those other things are as important as the plot itself. They are reasons why the plot is important, and over time have shown that The Plot is more important than we realized at first. They flesh out the world, make social commentary possible, and give us reasons to root for the good guys, but ultimately, the PCs can't do anything about them so long as Xykon is animate, and once he ceases to be animate, they all become trivially easy to resolve because NPCs will have to take care of them! The Order does not have the skill, knowledge, or standing to do much more than offer support to those upon whom the burdens fall.

Let's try this another way: name a dangling plot thread, then show why it must be The Order that fixes it. Demonstrate that they have the ability to do so, and that no one else can.

archon_huskie

2023-07-25, 09:43 AM

Order of the Stick started in my final year of undergraduate college. It is almost twenty years later!
#443 published the day I finish my final papers for grad school. Which was also my final all-nighter.

I really hope I see the end. I'm a little invested at this point.

KorvinStarmast

2023-07-25, 10:35 AM

I'm sorry, but I do not understand this post.

Xykon and Redcloak have separated and reunited before, yet you cannot imagine it now? They don't like each other, their affair is purely motivated by power.
And convenience/necessity: One needs an arcane caster, one needs a divine caster, both of whom must be of very high level.

The Order lacks the ability to create new gates, or to seal rifts.
But they can, perhaps, persuade Redcloak to offer up some purple magic juice to allow a better prison/cage to be constructed. We didn't know that until Thor told that to durkon near the end of Book VI.

Xykon is not a consolation prize. He is the actual goal. Stopping him is the goal.

Pippin doesn't have to help kill a Nazgul.
That was Merry. :smallyuk:

So, confusing supporting elements, world building, and social statements with The Plot is common in the critique of literature. Those elements give a story context, texture, and depth.

Let's try this another way: name a dangling plot thread, then show why it must be The Order that fixes it.
Demonstrate that they have the ability to do so, and that no one else can.
Convince Redcloak to offer up the purple magic juice. The first attempt wasn't so successful (nor was the defense of Azure City) but the Order (Durkon, maybe Elan with him) can try again.

Metastachydium

2023-07-25, 10:39 AM

I'm sorry, but I do not understand this post.

Xykon and Redcloak have separated and reunited before, yet you cannot imagine it now? They don't like each other, their affair is purely motivated by power.

My point is, they have no narrative reason to do so during the approaching battle, unless one of them dies/gets destroyed, in which case Red's game is out in the open.

Is The Order too incompetent? Heck of a bias in word choice, there, but in the end, yes. The Order lacks the ability to create new gates, or to seal rifts. They lack both the knowledge and the levels. Either they have to acquire those or they have to find someone already equipped to do so.

Xykon is not a consolation prize. He is the actual goal.

Why? They technically lack both the knowledge and the levels to beat Team Evil, and especially Xykon, as well.

Minas Tirith could have fallen and the Final Battle could have taken place at Isingard rather than The Gates of Mordor. So long as The One Ring ended up in the lava, the story would have been completed.

Faramir didn't need to marry Eowyn, or even survive.

PippinMerry doesn't have to help kill a Nazgul.

Gimli and Legolas do not have to become friends.

None of that has anything to do with getting The Ring to Mt. Doom. And Frodo is incompetent to affect any of those things.

Frodo is notably demonstrated to be, as you say, incompetent to destroy the Ring, so… Is LotR ultimately really just Gollum vs. the Ring?

So, confusing supporting elements, world building, and social statements with The Plot is common in the critique of literature. But none of those other things are as important as the plot itself.

Note to self: massive spans of LotR have no plot at all, but are, rather, wanton, pretty world building. Nice to know. (A quick reminder that Pelennor Fields and the armies that defeated Minas Morgul's army and Big S.'s top lieutenant there are quite essential for the Ring ending up in lava. Unless, of course, you think a small scale cleanup operation somewhere far away would have diverted the same amount of Sauron's attention from the one thing he sought being right under his nose and that two malnourished hobbits, one of them delirious for half the time could have just fought their way through the big ass army he didn't have to move elsewhere from their path.)

They are reasons why the plot is important, and over time have shown that The Plot is more important than we realized at first. They flesh out the world, make social commentary possible, and give us reasons to root for the good guys, but ultimately, the PCs can't do anything about them so long as Xykon is animate, and once he ceases to be animate, they all become trivially easy to resolve because NPCs will have to take care of them! The Order does not have the skill, knowledge, or standing to do much more than offer support to those upon whom the burdens fall.

Let's try this another way: name a dangling plot thread, then show why it must be The Order that fixes it. Demonstrate that they have the ability to do so, and that no one else can.

Xykon is not something the Order must fix. Technically, he's well out of their league, roughly to the same extent Redcloak's ego and broken psyche is. That the Order can beat Xykon (unlike anyone else) but can't negotiate an arrangement with Redcloak or have an impact on the gods/mortals conflict in the background (unlike any NPC shmuck) is an arbitrary decision on your part. And frankly, if defeating Xykon and saving the world become separate issues, winning over Redcloak is a far bigger prize than resolving the lousy Blood Oath.

EDIT: And a swordsage slips past again!

Sir_Norbert

2023-07-25, 12:11 PM

Minas Tirith could have fallen and the Final Battle could have taken place at Isingard rather than The Gates of Mordor. So long as The One Ring ended up in the lava, the story would have been completed.

Faramir didn't need to marry Eowyn, or even survive.

Pippin doesn't have to help kill a Nazgul.

Gimli and Legolas do not have to become friends.

None of that has anything to do with getting The Ring to Mt. Doom. And Frodo is incompetent to affect any of those things.

We should probably leave LotR out of this; it has such an atypical structure that it doesn't help that much when it comes to making predictions about OOTS.

LotR is two stories intertwined: the Ring quest (of which Sam, not Frodo, is the hero) and Aragorn's quest to become worthy of becoming king. These two stories depend on each other, which is why they are both parts of the same novel; but they are distinct stories, which is why it's completely okay that we leave Frodo and Sam alone for a whole ten chapters at a time while following Aragorn's story.

Let's try this another way: name a dangling plot thread, then show why it must be The Order that fixes it. Demonstrate that they have the ability to do so, and that no one else can.

"Another"? This is exactly the same "challenge" you posed before. And you still have not explained why this "challenge" is relevant to the matter at hand (hint: it isn't).

We were discussing how we can tell that OOTS is coming to its end. And the answer is not because only the Order can fix all the dangling plot threads; and no-one has claimed it is. And even if someone did answer your challenge by correctly naming a dangling plot thread that only the Order can fix, that wouldn't make a difference to the argument in any way!

Precure

2023-07-25, 01:09 PM

Tolkien's genre is pseudo-myths, which is why his writing is bunch of interconnected but different stories take place on same setting.

brian 333

2023-07-25, 03:34 PM

We should probably leave LotR out of this; it has such an atypical structure that it doesn't help that much when it comes to making predictions about OOTS.

LotR is two stories intertwined: the Ring quest (of which Sam, not Frodo, is the hero) and Aragorn's quest to become worthy of becoming king. These two stories depend on each other, which is why they are both parts of the same novel; but they are distinct stories, which is why it's completely okay that we leave Frodo and Sam alone for a whole ten chapters at a time while following Aragorn's story.

"Another"? This is exactly the same "challenge" you posed before. And you still have not explained why this "challenge" is relevant to the matter at hand (hint: it isn't).

We were discussing how we can tell that OOTS is coming to its end. And the answer is not because only the Order can fix all the dangling plot threads; and no-one has claimed it is. And even if someone did answer your challenge by correctly naming a dangling plot thread that only the Order can fix, that wouldn't make a difference to the argument in any way!

You were discussing how you know the story is coming to an end. I am discussing how it does not have to end here rather than another place. Remember, I'm the guy who wants it to continue.

The challenge is relevant as an opposition to the claim made that Xykon vs. Roy no longer matters to the plot. My position is that Roy vs. Xykon is the plot, and the story as a whole climaxes at the point Xykon is defeated. Others have claimed that Xykon no longer matters, and the goal is now 'save the world.' So, my challenge is, how can this be done? Can the story end with Xykon alive and the blood oath unfulfilled?

On the other hand, I have repeatedly demonstrated that The Order cannot do the things necessary, or that those things can be done better by others, to 'save the world.' Whether or not you think those things will happen is not the point.

There are thousands of ways the story can end. I want the long one.

gbaji

2023-07-25, 04:38 PM

Xykon and Redcloak have separated and reunited before, yet you cannot imagine it now? They don't like each other, their affair is purely motivated by power.

Because the most likely way they get separated at this point is if Redcloak reveals (or Xykon discovers) that The Plan doesn't actually benefit Xykon at all, and there is a falling out (probably quite bloody) between them. Which means, that no, there will be no reuniion after that. The follow up question is: If both Xykon and Redcloak leave and go their separate ways, never to work together again, which of them is the greater threat to the final remaining gate and thus a threat to end the world?

The answer, objectively, is Redcloak. Let's assume both of them arrive in the Final Dungeon, so both can return there pretty easily if they want, but they have the aforementioned falling out, and both gate/teleport/whatever out or otherwise escape. Xykon has zero reason to ever go back. None at all. The gate represents no means to gain power, so he's not interested and has no reason to go there. As I stated earlier, every single plan Xykon has requires that there be a world for him to enact that plan in/on.

Redcloak, on the other hand, has a planB that is expressly "destroy the entire world and hope things are better for goblins in the next one". Xykon is only a threat as long as he's working with Redcloak, and only then in that he's helping Redcloak pursue TDO's plan. Not Xykon's plan. Xykon is a dupe. A super powerful dupe, but a dupe none the less.

Is The Order too incompetent? Heck of a bias in word choice, there, but in the end, yes. The Order lacks the ability to create new gates, or to seal rifts. They lack both the knowledge and the levels. Either they have to acquire those or they have to find someone already equipped to do so.

Where in the entire series has it ever been said that the Orders objective is "rebuild the gates"? Their primary objective is "prevent TE from gaining control of a gate" with "destruction of a gate is acceptable to accomplish this". Now, at the final gate, it's "prevent TE from gaining control of the gate *and* prevent the final gate from being destroyed".

The longer term "fix" is to get Redcloak to use TDO's purple quiddity to help seal the rifts (with undefined specifics). Which, you are correct, it not likely something we're going to actually see them do in the comic, since that's presumably going to take them years to do (if they can get Redcloak to agree in the first place). The actual written story is not going to include this (except maybe as some kind of epilogue).

Um... I also think this is a bit of a red herring anyway. I suspect that something else will happen, involving the snarl and the final gate, that will perhaps utilize Redcloak and TDOs quiddity, but also involve the snarl itself in terms of sealing the rifts, and not just the ones that have currently formed, but also prevent rifts from forming in the future. That's just my own pet theory, but I actually really doubt that the series will end with "we have an agreement to seal the existing rifts, and then we'll just have to keep spackling over new ones as they form from now until the end of time".

There's the big freaking Chekhov's planet in the rift thing going on. That will be addressed/explained/resolved in some way during the comic run. So even though they are acting on one current "plan", I suspect that things will change, and that plan will as well. And we'll get a better resolution than the one written above.

Xykon is not a consolation prize. He is the actual goal.

Xykon is only a goal with regards to fulfilling the blood oath. As mentioned previously, killing him really only achieves one thing: It allows Eugene to move on.

Xykon is also an obstacle to a goal, with regards to preventing TE from enacting The Plan, and preventing the destruction of the final gate. But again, as several people have pointed out, if Xykon chooses to leave, he ceases to be an obstacle to that goal (save the world), and thus becomes relevant *only* with regard to the blood oath.

And yes. It goes without saying that Xykon is one of the primary antagonists in the series. Thus, he is going to be defeated, and defeating him is important from a story telling point of view. But that's precisely why "defeating him at the final battle at the final gate" is the far more likely path than "he retreats to his astral fortress and they pursue him there".

Let's try this another way: name a dangling plot thread, then show why it must be The Order that fixes it. Demonstrate that they have the ability to do so, and that no one else can.

Resolution of the final gate and whatever happens there, will involve the actions of the Order.
Resolution of the IFCC and whatever their plan/plot is, will involve the actions of the Order.
Resolution of the rifts and some means to seal them, will involve the actions of the Order.
Resolution of the planet within the rifts (and maybe other stuff involving it and the snarl), will involve the actions of the Order.

All four of those things will be resolved, and will be resolved via direct action by the Order of the Stick because this is their story, and they are the heroes. Even number three (sealing the rifts), if it goes "according to plan", will be the direct result of the Order convincing Redcloak to help out. Even if they aren't personally the ones doing the sealing, it will be because of them that it's possible to do so in the first place.

I will point out that while I personally do believe that "Defeat Xykon, once and for all" will *also* be something accomplished by the Order, every single one of those four things I listed can be achieved even if they haven't (yet) defeated Xykon. I don't think that's the likely order of events, but if we're strictly speaking in terms of what major plot elements need to be resolved, and who's going to to them, and what is needed to do them, it's relevant to point out that technically "defeating Xykon, once and for all" is not a requirement. If he retreats to his fortress, they can literally go get him any time. It wont happen that way (which is why I don't think the astral fortress will ever come up in the first place), but if we're actually asking the question "If Xykon gates away, and Redcloak is still hanging around near the gate, do they deal with Redcloak or go chase after Xykon", the answer is clearly "deal with Redcloak". Xykon has removed himself from the equation at that point.

Again though, from a "what makes a good story" point of view, Xykon will be destroyed in the final battle, at the final gate. Redcloak's "plan" will be thwarted (one way or another, and I have some theories on that), at the final battle, at the final gate. The IFCCs plan will also be thwarted (also, one way or another) at the final battle, at the final gate. Some kind of resolution/plan to fix/seal the rifts will *also* be generated (and made possible), once again... wait for it... at the final battle, at the final gate.

My pet theory also invovles a detour to the planet in the rift, so there's that (and total speculation on my part). But a side trip to the astral plane to chase after Xykon just feels like it would be a total pace breaker for the story. It acomplishes nothing (from a story telling point of view) that defeating Xykon right there at the final gate does, but takes more time *and* stops any sort of natural flow in terms of the resolution of all of those other things.

Sir_Norbert

2023-07-25, 05:14 PM

The challenge is relevant as an opposition to the claim made that Xykon vs. Roy no longer matters to the plot.

...which is odd, because no-one has claimed this.

I did claim that the plot is not (i.e. is not the same as) Roy vs Xykon, which is not the same as saying Roy vs Xykon "no longer matters".

Your confusion is like confusing "milk is not cheese" (obviously true) with "milk does not matter for cheese" (obviously false).

My position is that Roy vs. Xykon is the plot, and the story as a whole climaxes at the point Xykon is defeated. Others have claimed that Xykon no longer matters, and the goal is now 'save the world.' So, my challenge is, how can this be done? Can the story end with Xykon alive and the blood oath unfulfilled?

Xykon is the primary villain, and we want to see him defeated as comeuppance for all the evil he has done, as well as to prevent his current plan endangering the world. So, the final defeat of Xykon will be the big climax of the work and the point at which tension, having been at its highest, starts winding down. This is obvious and has never been in dispute.

Remember, in this argument I'm the one saying Xykon's defeat and the resolution of the other plot threads will come together because they are the balls Rich is juggling. Postulating how the story could end with Xykon alive wouldn't help my case, it would undermine it!

KorvinStarmast

2023-07-26, 12:13 PM

Tolkien's genre is pseudo-myths, which is why his writing is bunch of interconnected but different stories take place on same setting. Yeah, he was trying to create a constructed mythology. Given his field, an interesting undertaking.

You were discussing how you know the story is coming to an end. I am discussing how it does not have to end here rather than another place. Remember, I'm the guy who wants it to continue. You can want in one hand, poop in the other, and see which one fills up first. Rich has said that seven books is how long the story is. The story is now well into book seven. Rich is not George R R Martin. Suggestion: get used to the fact that the story ends.

I did claim that the plot is not (i.e. is not the same as) Roy vs Xykon, which is not the same as saying Roy vs Xykon "no longer matters". Correct. It's an important strand of the rope (... if the rope is the whole story, made of a manilla line that comprises many strands together ...)

Your confusion is like confusing "milk is not cheese" (obviously true) with "milk does not matter for cheese" (obviously false).
I like that illustration. I also like both milk and cheese.

Xykon is the primary villain, and we want to see him defeated as comeuppance for all the evil he has done, as well as to prevent his current plan endangering the world. So, the final defeat of Xykon will be the big climax of the work and the point at which tension, having been at its highest, starts winding down. This is obvious and has never been in dispute.

Remember, in this argument I'm the one saying Xykon's defeat and the resolution of the other plot threads will come together because they are the balls Rich is juggling. Postulating how the story could end with Xykon alive wouldn't help my case, it would undermine it! I am still unclear on how much Xykon understands as regards the flaws in his plan...and to what level of detail he 'gets' Redcloak's duplicity. He has shown on screen (and even moreso in SoD) a certain distrust of Redcloak. This might be due to him being self aware enough to know that since he uses people for his own ends, that others will likely do something similar and (again, from SoD) it is clear that Redcloak is doing that since he needs a powerful arcane caster.

gbaji

2023-07-26, 03:36 PM

Xykon is the primary villain, and we want to see him defeated as comeuppance for all the evil he has done, as well as to prevent his current plan endangering the world. So, the final defeat of Xykon will be the big climax of the work and the point at which tension, having been at its highest, starts winding down. This is obvious and has never been in dispute.

Remember, in this argument I'm the one saying Xykon's defeat and the resolution of the other plot threads will come together because they are the balls Rich is juggling. Postulating how the story could end with Xykon alive wouldn't help my case, it would undermine it!

And, just to bring this back around, this is why "Xykon retreats to his astral fortress and the Order pursues and fights him there" is problematic. Xykon is the "main evil antagonist" of the story. He's the "big bad" who needs to be defeated. But his defeat should be tied to all of the other "bad stuff" that is going on (the gate/rift/snarl/IFCC). Removing him physically from those other things really steps on everything else that Rich has been building up to in the story. A final battle with Xykon, right in front of the final gate, with death and destruction of the entire world on the line is super climactic. Having it occur in some other random place we've only viewed in a single panel one time, is kinda.... not.

I am still unclear on how much Xykon understands as regards the flaws in his plan...and to what level of detail he 'gets' Redcloak's duplicity. He has shown on screen (and even moreso in SoD) a certain distrust of Redcloak. This might be due to him being self aware enough to know that since he uses people for his own ends, that others will likely do something similar and (again, from SoD) it is clear that Redcloak is doing that since he needs a powerful arcane caster.

Yes. I fully expect that there will be a reveal/realization followed by some sort of violence and backstabbing happening between Redloak and Xykon at some point (probably at a very dramatically relevant point). There's just been way too much foreshadowing of the various things they've been doing to prepare against betrayal by the other for this not to happen. Xykon's control thingie on MitD against Redcloak. Redcloak swapping the phylactery. Little bits like the detect evil thing Redcloak slipped out. All are adding to the suspicion and... dare I say it... sudden but inevitable betrayal. And it's not like it's unfounded. We know that "The Plan" doesn't do what Redcloak has told Xykon it will do. The absolute instant Xykon realizes that Recloak has been lying to him this whole time, it'll be "game on" between them.

I'll get the popcorn for that one.

KorvinStarmast

2023-07-27, 07:21 AM

All are adding to the suspicion and... dare I say it... sudden but inevitable betrayal. Thank you, Wash. (puts on browncoat...)

And it's not like it's unfounded. We know that "The Plan" doesn't do what Redcloak has told Xykon it will do.
The absolute instant Xykon realizes that Recloak has been lying to him this whole time, it'll be "game on" between them.

I'll get the popcorn for that one. Yeah, that will be some fun strips. I have an idea that this will occur while V is held down by the IFCC, and things look grim for the Order, and then the reveal hits Xykon full on and he reacts ...

Precure

2023-07-27, 04:44 PM

Tbh, I can see a weakened Xykon escaping to the astral fortress, followed by Roy and they had their final fight there, but as a few strips deal, not an arc.

Peelee

2023-07-27, 05:03 PM

Tbh, I can see a weakened Xykon escaping to the astral fortress, followed by Roy and they had their final fight there, but as a few strips deal, not an arc.

Assuming Xykon can just teleport into the fortress, I imagine it would take significantly more than a few strips for Roy, or anyone, to follow him there. Big X can presumably get right to the center, nobody else can.

Precure

2023-07-27, 05:17 PM

I was thinking something more gate like, like Xykon throw himself into it, Roy follows, then it closes behind them.

gbaji

2023-07-31, 04:39 PM

I was thinking something more gate like, like Xykon throw himself into it, Roy follows, then it closes behind them.

Ok. But then how does Roy get back? And if this is occuring in the middle of a bunch of other dramatic stuff, how does that work?

My issue is that there are just too many story elements that all aim themselves right at the final battle and final gate. The philactory swap (and a number of inter-TE conflicts). The IFCC (the artifact and vessel, V being pulled away for ~20 minutes). And the whole "there's more to the rifts/snarl than what we've been told" (which kinda has to have a story pay off at some point). Anything that pulls a couple of the characters away from that location while all of that stuff is going on will just break the story flow apart. And in this case, for no value at all other than to have the fight between Roy and Xykon happen in location B instead of location A, where they already were, and where everything else is happening.

The entire astral fortress only exists as "the place Xykon thinks his philactory is". That's it. It's a necessary bit of side information to explain how Redcloak's plan to backstab Xykon could work (even if we don't have all the other details, this is kinda "step one"). I mean. I guess we could speculate different ways that Xykon could escape there, and Roy (and/or others) could follow him there. But... why?

Not having Xykon's final defeat occur right in the middle of the big climatic battle in which all the other big climatic stuff is happening effectively relegates his death to "epilogue" status. The only reason Roy would pursue Xykon to the fortress is if every other problem or threat involving the gate was resolved. At which point, chasing him and defeating him has lost much of the gravitas it had previously. So yeah. Just not seeing it.

Mechalich

2023-07-31, 06:50 PM

The entire astral fortress only exists as "the place Xykon thinks his philactory is". That's it. It's a necessary bit of side information to explain how Redcloak's plan to backstab Xykon could work (even if we don't have all the other details, this is kinda "step one"). I mean. I guess we could speculate different ways that Xykon could escape there, and Roy (and/or others) could follow him there. But... why?

Logistics.

Right now, both the good guys and the bad guys are tromping around with a large number of allies, presenting a group that is far too big to functionally conduct a final battle. Some sort of measure to split things up is broadly necessary. Moving Xykon and the core OOTS members away from everyone else for a final confrontation therefore makes a great deal of sense.

Not having Xykon's final defeat occur right in the middle of the big climatic battle in which all the other big climatic stuff is happening effectively relegates his death to "epilogue" status. The only reason Roy would pursue Xykon to the fortress is if every other problem or threat involving the gate was resolved. At which point, chasing him and defeating him has lost much of the gravitas it had previously. So yeah. Just not seeing it.

Pursuing Xykon to his astral fortress makes little sense, because there's nothing there. By contrast, pursuing Xykon to the planet inside the rift might be far more logical. Hypothetically, it is possible that following whatever great revelation/betrayal/decision happens with Redcloak and the gods and the Dark One agree to seal the gates forever, Xykon could jump into the rift with a plan to conquer the world on the other side. The Order - perhaps transported by the MitD - would then make the choice to go through and stop him.

Yes, this requires making the climax 'multi-stage' in a sense, but there's so many balls in the air something along those lines is pretty much inevitable at this point.

brian 333

2023-07-31, 09:48 PM

I forgot to take special notice of it at the time, but #1282 was one thousand strips after the point where I joined this journey. My life has changed so much since then that although I know of things that happened to me around that time, I have only tiny fragments of memory of how those things felt.

Like I said in the other thread, it will feel very strange when OOTS is over and there is no more speculation about the rest of the story, no more excitement at seeing a new page drop and gradually absorbing it and then thinking over how it changes my perception of the whole. Then again, it's not a totally foreign feeling. I've followed other webcomics with definite endings, such as Digger, and while the associated feeling are not quite the same, I've followed book series with overall myth arcs, such as Harry Potter. But OOTS is the one that has kept me engaged and curious for longest. Also as I said in the other thread, that engagement and curiosity is because OOTS is a journey with a definite end planned that the author is working up towards, and the tension is mounting as we are getting closer. I want to keep enjoying this journey for a long time, but we're at a point where certain things (such as the characters deciding to leave the dungeon and go elsewhere) couldn't be accepted because it would feel like the author had broken his commitment to the journey.

I don't think we're all that close, though. Too much is still unresolved, too many mysteries unanswered. For the ending to be satisfying (and I am confident it will be), the outcome of the Order v Xykon conflict has to be intimately wrapped up with how those mysteries get answered. The final battle of Book 6, with many separate rises and falls in tension, changes of focus to other parts of the conflict, and looks back into the past, was a suitably epic wrap-up to that book, and the final battle of the whole series ought to be even more epic.

Sure, I could have spoken more precisely. It's not the location that's important; it's that everything right now feels like this is where it comes together. Both parties of main characters are here; this is the last gate; Serini is present to give us the long-teased backstory of the Scribblers; we've had the big reveal about how high the stakes are. If Xykon were now to teleport off to his astral fortress, that would go against the overall current of the story. The astral fortress is just not interesting enough to carry the grand climax.

As an aside: "McGuffin" means an object that is interesting and desired by the actors in a story, but what it is doesn't matter to the readers/viewers, only that it is fought over. The briefcase, as you mentioned, is an example.

Not all stories are of this type. OOTS is not. The Snarl is definitely not a McGuffin. Its nature does matter; it has agency; it has already taken action and had an effect on some of the characters in the story. (Yes, I am aware that in one of his quote, Rich used the term "McGuffin", but he did so inaccurately.)

And the plot is not Roy v Xykon. That is the driver of the plot, but in itself, it's far less interesting than the branches that have grown up around it. We know Roy wins; that was resolved as early as the Oracle's prophecy of a happy ending. The Snarl's nature is far more important because it's one of the things that continues to keep the reader engaged and absorbed.

Indeed.

That's not a valid scenario barring special circumstances. If Xykon is betrayed and flees, that creates an awkward situation where he becomes an out-of-context problem for the duration of his absence. The party certainly won't and, in fact, cannot abandon the quest to save the world simply to resolve a personal vendetta.

Well, that probably is the only place where they can truly be killed.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!

Technically, Roy himself has acknowledged back in WaXP that him vs. Xykon is only important insofar as Xykon is the threat to the world (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html). Roy vs. Xykon will only be the plot insofar and as long as that remains that way.

I already addressed this. Thanks for digging up the link though.

That's what I meant by saying Roy v Xykon is the driver of the plot. It's what keeping the engine in motion. But the plot is also much more than this: it's what happens to the secondary characters and to the world as a whole, and the outcomes of the little battles along the way.

Once again, no. As has been linked to above, even Roy acknowledges and states very clearly and explicitly that this is not about the two of them. The Snarl is the McGuffin, yes. But Xykon is only a main plot level issue insofar as it is a realistic possibility that he might interfere with this McGuffin. If Xykon is no threat to the world anymore, he falls into irrelevance. Going back to your Astral Fortress example, if he rans off before the race for last Gate concludes, the Order won't drop everything to go chase him and leave Redcloak to roam free as he pleases. They will address the biggest immediate threat first, as they always do. Remember: DStP contains one little ten minute run in with Big X. BritF, a full 2 rounds. UD, none at all. Are these books not part of the main plot, then? And UD even less so than DStP? I'd say: hardly.

EDIT: All in all, "the world gets saved without the Order's participation as they branch off to defeat some powerful dead guy who's not the real threat anymore" is no less of an anticlimax than "the powerful dead guy built up as the BBEG's just randomly destroyed before the endgame".

Ok. But then how does Roy get back? And if this is occuring in the middle of a bunch of other dramatic stuff, how does that work?

My issue is that there are just too many story elements that all aim themselves right at the final battle and final gate. The philactory swap (and a number of inter-TE conflicts). The IFCC (the artifact and vessel, V being pulled away for ~20 minutes). And the whole "there's more to the rifts/snarl than what we've been told" (which kinda has to have a story pay off at some point). Anything that pulls a couple of the characters away from that location while all of that stuff is going on will just break the story flow apart. And in this case, for no value at all other than to have the fight between Roy and Xykon happen in location B instead of location A, where they already were, and where everything else is happening.

The entire astral fortress only exists as "the place Xykon thinks his philactory is". That's it. It's a necessary bit of side information to explain how Redcloak's plan to backstab Xykon could work (even if we don't have all the other details, this is kinda "step one"). I mean. I guess we could speculate different ways that Xykon could escape there, and Roy (and/or others) could follow him there. But... why?

Not having Xykon's final defeat occur right in the middle of the big climatic battle in which all the other big climatic stuff is happening effectively relegates his death to "epilogue" status. The only reason Roy would pursue Xykon to the fortress is if every other problem or threat involving the gate was resolved. At which point, chasing him and defeating him has lost much of the gravitas it had previously. So yeah. Just not seeing it.

Because you and I are not The Author, we cannot yet but guess as to his intentions and his plans for this story.

It may go as you say, lead directly to a confrontation here and now, and the story's end. It is unlikely to go as I have proposed, those proposals being nothing more than refutations of the idea that logic and story structure demand it go as you have outlined.

But I am very aware that The Giant is a better storyteller than me. He has surprised me on many occasions, and I have loved every one.

Logic. Such a fickle mistress.

Logic would have had Xykon dead in Dorukon's dungeon and the story ending there. Rich had other plans. I count half-a-dozen places the story could have logically ended since then.

So, why the opposition to the idea that this place and time are not the ultimate climax? I have faith that the story will be exciting right up to the end, no matter where or when it happens. Mr. Berlew is a good enough writer to make it not only make sense, but looking back make it the only conclusion to his story that makes sense.

So, here's hoping for more surprises and more game-time for the PCs. Maybe when they make Epic levels they'll have the juice to take down Xykon and get a little respect from Redcloak.

Mechalich

2023-07-31, 10:29 PM

So, here's hoping for more surprises and more game-time for the PCs. Maybe when they make Epic levels they'll have the juice to take down Xykon and get a little respect from Redcloak.

The Order does not require any assistance or further leveling to take down Xykon, assuming they can fight him without his allies. Xykon's spell list was revealed all the way back in #670 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), and it's quite anti-optimized. Additionally, a 6v1 advantage in the action economy is immense, to the point that it is entirely possible for the Order to take down Xykon in a single round if they are all able to attack (he's been shattered by fairly modest damage totals before).

KorvinStarmast

2023-08-01, 08:01 AM

Ok. But then how does Roy get back? And if this is occurring in the middle of a bunch of other dramatic stuff, how does that work? FWIW, Rich has already split the party twice in this book: Durkon and Minrah go off to negotiate with Redcloak, and the pursuit of Serini by Belkar, V, and Haley.

The philactory swap (and a number of inter-TE conflicts).
The IFCC (the artifact and vessel, V being pulled away for ~20 minutes).
And the whole "there's more to the rifts/snarl than what we've been told" (which kinda has to have a story pay off at some point).

Agree that their resolution will likely be woven together.

Logistics.
By contrast, pursuing Xykon to the planet inside the rift might be far more logical. Hypothetically, it is possible that following whatever great revelation/betrayal/decision happens with Redcloak and the gods and the Dark One agree to seal the gates forever, Xykon could jump into the rift with a plan to conquer the world on the other side. The Order - perhaps transported by the MitD - would then make the choice to go through and stop him.

Yes, this requires making the climax 'multi-stage' in a sense, but there's so many balls in the air something along those lines is pretty much inevitable at this point. Interesting idea: we had to leave the world to save it.

It may go as you say, lead directly to a confrontation here and now, and the story's end. The IFCC has a curve ball to throw. Maybe a knuckle ball as well.

By the way, logic has Xykon-the-lich not die in Dorukan's dungeons, since "lich has a phylactery and comes back" is a standard thing with D&D-lich-stuff. As a player, I must say that a lich is one of the most annoying BBEGs a DM can use, since they keep coming back and there are so many different wayt to hide a phylactery. :smallyuk:

Peelee

2023-08-01, 08:34 AM

FWIW, Rich has already split the party twice in this book: Durkon and Minrah go off to negotiate with Redcloak, and the pursuit of Serini by Belkar, V, and Haley.

Both fairly loose definitions of "split", as they were never more than, say, a mile away from each other. Roy going off to an infinite plane with no way to get back and no way for others to get to him easily is a bit different.

Not to mention that the story isn't called "The Adventures of Roy Greenhilt".

gbaji

2023-08-01, 11:53 AM

Right now, both the good guys and the bad guys are tromping around with a large number of allies, presenting a group that is far too big to functionally conduct a final battle. Some sort of measure to split things up is broadly necessary. Moving Xykon and the core OOTS members away from everyone else for a final confrontation therefore makes a great deal of sense.

Sure. TE is currently 5 members (counting Greyview). The Order and Friends is at... 15? (counting animal friends, familiars, abberations, and whatever a mimic is - wait? Do we count the peas?). Assuming the IFCC swoops in at some point that's a minus one and a plus <unknown number>. So yeah, I fully expect that the combat will be broken up into parts, for art purposes if nothing else. But I don't think that anyone's going to gate off and continue a side battle on the astral plane though.

I'm thinking more like different rooms in the final dungeon, one of which will be where the gate is. Or Rich will create visual blocks of some kind to break things up so they can fit in the panels.

Pursuing Xykon to his astral fortress makes little sense, because there's nothing there. By contrast, pursuing Xykon to the planet inside the rift might be far more logical. Hypothetically, it is possible that following whatever great revelation/betrayal/decision happens with Redcloak and the gods and the Dark One agree to seal the gates forever, Xykon could jump into the rift with a plan to conquer the world on the other side. The Order - perhaps transported by the MitD - would then make the choice to go through and stop him.

Yes, this requires making the climax 'multi-stage' in a sense, but there's so many balls in the air something along those lines is pretty much inevitable at this point.

Oh yeah. I fully expect that something involving the rift and the world in the rift will occur. But it's part of why I reject the idea of anyone going to the astral fortress. There's already this kinda obvious "thing that's likely to happen in some way", which already involves/requires "traveling through the rift" (or parts of the world coming out? Dunno?, but some degree of "change of locale" that will affect the battle and direction of the conflict at some point).

Regardless of what specifically happens, if we assume there is some interaction with the rift and the world in the rift, that kinda has to happen "right then" during the climactic battle (cause any such interaction requires opening/destruction of the final gate, which will presumably kick off a "gods destroy the world in 15 minutes" timer). That really doesn't leave room (or time!) for a side jaunt to the astral plane and exploration of a massive fortress filled with magic defenses and traps and whatnot.

The way I see it, when you have a conflict like this, you can have one "chase something to another location and deal with it" tacked on. And when given the narrative choice of "chase Xykon to his astral fortress" and "interact with the rift and the world within in some way to save the universe", I'm kinda leaning towards the latter option as working better.

My personal prediction is that at some point during that conflict, the IFCC will intervene, destroy the final gate (directly, or via some manipulation, or maybe it just happens during the fight), and activate their artifact and vessel (whatever they are) and begin whatever evil plan they have (force destruction of the world and somehow drain all the soul energy has been proposed, but could be something else). Either the Order will be sucked into the rift, or choose to leap through (maybe they see flat ground of the world within, maybe they chase Xykon. who knows?). I think that the actual "final resolution" will involve some interaction within the rift and on that world, and will result in preventing future snarl incursions into the prime material plane.

I further speculate that Belkar will chose to stay in this other world (for a few more complex reasons), thus fulfilling the prophesies about him. The rest of the Order (and perhaps Redcloak, but certainly not Xykon if TE went there too), will return. And then there may be some perfunctury "plan to close the remaining rifts from our side" (if needed at all). Or not. Hard to say.

But yeah. Regardless of specifics, the "secondary action" to the "final fight at the gate" will involve the rift and the world in the rift, not the astral fortress.