Help me understand Belkar's motivations

[enq]

Speaking very longterm, I am a big fan of Haley's character development and an even bigger one of Belkar's. But, I find it hard to express what lies behind some of it. For starters - and I'm sure this is something from the Origin story that I've forgotten - why does he group with the OotS at all? Is it just that he gets to kill things with a party backing him up? I can understand it a thousand strips in, but at the start it seems that Roy restraining/directing him isn't anything he signed up for, whereas later he seems to be more tolerant of it as "leader-approved violence" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1053.html).

If any character-understander could describe the journey inside this halfling's head, I would appreciate it, especially touching upon these events that I think are especially significant:

The Order defending him against Miko, with Roy emphasizing that Belkar has been loyal (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html)
Getting through the Mark of Justice (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html)
The Scruffy, Gannji and Enor experience (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0807.html)
Durkon's sacrifice (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0877.html) (which obviously left a mark) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1115.html)

Also, how would things have played out if he didn't fear Roy? (because he does, right?)

[dancrilis]

Speaking very longterm, I am a big fan of Haley's character development and an even bigger one of Belkar's. But, I find it hard to express what lies behind some of it. For starters - and I'm sure this is something from the Origin story that I've forgotten - why does he group with the OotS at all?

He was looking to get out of town quickly with a well armed group.



If any character-understander could describe the journey inside this halfling's head, I would appreciate it, especially touching upon these events that I think are especially significant:

The Order defending him against Miko, with Roy emphasizing that Belkar has been loyal (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html)
Getting through the Mark of Justice (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html)
The Scruffy, Gannji and Enor experience (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0807.html)
Durkon's sacrifice (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0877.html) (which obviously left a mark) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1115.html)


For the first point - Belkar knows that he is somewhat protected in a group, he doesn't really get why (at that point) but he gets the benefits so he isn't inclined to overly rock the boat, but he didn't factor that they would actually protect him (that was not part of the plan).
For the second - here he learned that merely being part of a group in no way protects you from the consequences of actions that the group doesn't like, effectively he will do better if he is a 'team player' then if he is a problem member.
For the third - this is effectively him learning empathy, Belkar cares about Mr. Scruffy not as a tool but as a seperate entity - and he realises that other people can feel this way also, effectively he has determined that forcing him to fight Mr Scruffy would be wrong and this has lead him to hold that therefore it is wrong to force others to fight their versions of Mr Scruffy.
For the last - Belkar doesn't really understand this (as laid out in 1115 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1115.html)) but effectively while he has empathy (per point 3) it is fairly strictly defined, here he knows that Durkon sacrificed himself for someone who Durkon didn't like (or have any reason to like) - this has caused Belkar to feel bad about being a jerk to Durkon (for which he apologies in 1151 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1151.html)).


Also, how would things have played out if he didn't fear Roy? (because he does, right?)
I don't think he does - he always respected (for lack of a better word) Roy as a capable fighter, but I don't think Belkar would have bothered to hang around if he was living in fear (and Roy himself has very little means of finding Belkar if Belkar simply left, and little actual reason to try) - and may have been much more inclined to betray the party in such conditions (after all they would be the jerks who had him living in fear and as such they deserve it).


I kindof look at Belkar as the guy who sits at a table for a good mindless time, roll dice make jokes ignore the overall plot etc who over the course of the campaign got more invested in the story and the characters in it - leading to a change in behaviour.

[enq]

Thank you for your insights. Let me clarify something.


I don't think he does - he always respected (for lack of a better word) Roy as a capable fighter

With fearing Roy I meant he would have never done something like this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0539.html) with Roy around, because he knows Roy wouldn't tolerate it and he would probably express that violently. So if we assume that Roy was as good at keeping him on a leash as Haley was (or wasn't), how might things have played out?

[ZhonLord]

To quote Belkar himself: "I have NO IDEA what I want." (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1182.html)

Our happy little mass murderer is going through a lot in terms of emotional discovery, as dancrilis said. Roy hired Belkar thinking he was a ranger with good tracking skills (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0213.html), and after getting out of town the little guy stuck with them because of the promise of dungeon crawling and associated violence, but now Belkar is discovering things in his life that he values besides violence and he's losing his own personal direction in life.

If he were to somehow cheat the Oracle's prophecy, I'm guessing he'd go backpacking across the world for a while to see if there's anything else he's been missing out on and/or can seek as a goal in life, with Scruffy on one side, Bloodfeast on the other, and Shojo smiling down from the afterlife as his philosophy of chaos leads a worthy inheritor onward.


So if we assume that Roy was as good at keeping him on a leash as Haley was (or wasn't), how might things have played out?

He'd have betrayed the party, killed them or gotten them killed, and looted their magic items. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html)

[Zarhan]

If he were to somehow cheat the Oracle's prophecy, I'm guessing he'd go backpacking across the world for a while to see if there's anything else he's been missing out on and/or can seek as a goal in life, with Scruffy on one side, Bloodfeast on the other, and Shojo smiling down from the afterlife as his philosophy of chaos leads a worthy inheritor onward.


There are essentially two tropes that are the most potentially invoked here. If he survives due to some Prophecy Twist (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ProphecyTwist), in the epilogue he'll be walking the earth (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WalkingTheEarth) being the Atoner (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheAtoner) (in which case V might be a companion - they understand each other). In this case he'd essentially complete his journey of raising from a murderous sociopath to a decent person with a Troubled Past.

The more cliched approach is of course him pulling off Heroic Sacrifice (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeroicSacrifice) (with some final Zen-like state saying about being made for this moment). In that case he'd do the same thing but essentially would get to go out with a bang (and we'd probably see the ramifications in the afterlife).

However, both of those are also rather cliched so hopefully the endgame will be something else. Then again, Screw Destiny (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScrewDestiny) is also something we have kind of gotten used to already...

On a related note, Sangwaan prophecied (in bonus strip) that Belkar will save Hinjo's life twice. It happened once in #435 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html), but has the second time happened yet? Of course it could be really "technical", meaning participating in saving the world... But anyway, this would also be one way of getting points of his development across. On the first time, it was completely for his own benefit (Mark of Justice stuff), but the upcoming second time will most likely be without concern for himself. That might show yet one more step - it's one thing to care for ones friends and people you have grown close, but what about the guy who's going to toss you in jail?

[woweedd]

In regards to Durkon, I thibk it's pretty clear Belkar was dealing with powerful survivor's guilt. Belkar is well aware he's an Evil prick, also even he can see how cosmically ironic and messed-up tgat a hero like Durkon would go down saving a violent sociopath with a log history of violence. And, since he's recently figured out empathy, this has forced him to grapple with a new emotion: GUILT. I think, on sone level, Belkar thinks that he, not Durkon, deserved to die at Malack's hands. And the guilt at someone else dying to save him has majorly pushed his development. If all I had to go on for Belkar's character was his actions after the start of Book 6, i'm not sure i'd guess he was any worse then Chaotic Neutral. He hasn't done anything especially Evil in a long time, and Durkon's death was the tyrning point. Maybe, on some level, he's now trying to turn over a new less-bitter leaf, become someone who WOULD have been worthy of dying for....Even if he doesn't realize it.

[Ruck]

Good posts all in all. I just wanted to add a couple of details.


For the last - Belkar doesn't really understand this (as laid out in 1115 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1115.html)) but effectively while he has empathy (per point 3) it is fairly strictly defined, here he knows that Durkon sacrificed himself for someone who Durkon didn't like (or have any reason to like) - this has caused Belkar to feel bad about being a jerk to Durkon (for which he apologies in 1151 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1151.html)).


In regards to Durkon, I thibk it's pretty clear Belkar was dealing with powerful survivor's guilt. Belkar is well aware he's an Evil prick, also even he can see how cosmically ironic and messed-up tgat a hero like Durkon would go down saving a violent sociopath with a log history of violence. And, since he's recently figured out empathy, this has forced him to grapple with a new emotion: GUILT. I think, on sone level, Belkar thinks that he, not Durkon, deserved to die at Malack's hands. And the guilt at someone else dying to save him has majorly pushed his development.

I think this mostly gets to it; I think it definitely goes beyond feeling bad, and possibly beyond feeling guilt. I think it's an extension of his lessons about empathy from Mr. Scruffy: He's learned he can care about another living thing, he's learned that other people might have a similar relationship to each other as he does to Mr. Scruffy; and then, he learned that some people care about other living things so much they'll sacrifice themselves to save someone they don't even particularly like or care about. I think there is some survivor's guilt, and some feelings Belkar wasn't even aware he could have that resulted from the experience, but I also think it was a bit of a shock as to just how much better of a person Durkon is than he is, and how far he has to go in that regard.

Which brings me to...


On a related note, Sangwaan prophecied (in bonus strip) that Belkar will save Hinjo's life twice. It happened once in #435 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html), but has the second time happened yet?

It has not. And, cliché though it may be, I am pretty certain this is all leading to a Heroic Sacrifice for Belkar. Probably to save Hinjo. Who, if nothing else (and he is many other things), is the person Belkar could count on to take care of Mr. Scruffy if he was gone.

[Fyraltari]

As for why Belkar stuck with the Order initially: He doesn't have any plans or ambitions. He kind of lets life and his impulses guide him wherever. After his initial need of the Order's protection had passed, he didn't really have a reason to leave (as in, anything better to do), so he stayed out of inertia and because they provided him with an outlet for his need of violence and a source of loot.

[Zarhan]

It has not. And, cliché though it may be, I am pretty certain this is all leading to a Heroic Sacrifice for Belkar. Probably to save Hinjo. Who, if nothing else (and he is many other things), is the person Belkar could count on to take care of Mr. Scruffy if he was gone.

The Hinjo angle might actually be a good point - both storywise and for Belkar's arc. I mean, Xykon gets defeated, rifts welded, world saved...and Belkar survives, supposedly twisting the prophecy. Then he dies during the epilogue saving Hinjo from whatever despite it having no direct impact on his wellbeing. This would avert the whole "died saving the world"-schtick but still get the prophecies fulfilled.

[Metastachydium]

He'd have betrayed the party, killed them or gotten them killed, and looted their magic items. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html)

(Well, we know he wouldn't have vehemently objected to a good chance to do so (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html).)

[dancrilis]

So if we assume that Roy was as good at keeping him on a leash as Haley was (or wasn't), how might things have played out?

I don't think it would have played out.

Roy is better in a direct confrontation then Belkar is (see 748 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0748.html)), and Belkar can review the reality of combat and come to the correct conclusion (see 270 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0270.html)), which is something that could be counted on to keep Belkar in line (see 125 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0125.html)).

Haley's primary issue with controlling Belkar while she was the leader is that she is seemingly outclassed in ability* and had no real support to count on.


In a direct confrontation see how she does here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0609.html) compared to how Belkar does here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0613.html)) and no guarantee that she would win a less direct one she handles Crystal here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0981.html) likely less well then Belkar handled Miko here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0281.html), both of them had their opponents dead to rights (seemingly) but Haley took more of a beating first and had more assistance and was likely dealing with a less intelligent opponent (and possibly a less powerful one)).

If Roy was only as good as controlling Belkar as Haley was then the reasons for why he is only that good would mean he is only as good at handling Belkar in a confrontation as Haley is - he can steal his chocolate but not much else, he could kill him when he sleeps (probably) but ultimately he would likely need to make a decision much like Haley made here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0540.html), particularly panels 4 and 12 and simply accept what he can't control in favour of the mission.

[Tubercular Ox]

Roy is more than just powerful, he's intimidating. He regularly stifles conversations in the early books with a simple, "Don't," or, "Stop," and it works every time.

Admittedly, he stifles conversations where the joke's been told and it's time to move on, but I don't remember other characters doing this as much.

[Metastachydium]

Roy is more than just powerful, he's intimidating.

Well, he does feel more intimidating… (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html)

[Tubercular Ox]

Random example. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0180.html) It's maddeningly difficult to search for these and I have to go back to real work. I'm sorry if it's not convincing.

[Metastachydium]

Random example. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0180.html) It's maddeningly difficult to search for these and I have to go back to real work. I'm sorry if it's not convincing.

His biggest achievement on this front, if you ask me, is still the time when he managed to intellectually intimidate V in Origin. And he didn't stutter.

[Ruck]

The Hinjo angle might actually be a good point - both storywise and for Belkar's arc. I mean, Xykon gets defeated, rifts welded, world saved...and Belkar survives, supposedly twisting the prophecy. Then he dies during the epilogue saving Hinjo from whatever despite it having no direct impact on his wellbeing. This would avert the whole "died saving the world"-schtick but still get the prophecies fulfilled.

I am still not clear why Belkar dying saving the world needs to be "subverted," or why it would be better if he died doing something relatively meaningless by comparison.

[dancrilis]

I am still not clear why Belkar dying saving the world needs to be "subverted," or why it would be better if he died doing something relatively meaningless by comparison.

I think people often feel that something lacks punch if it occurs roughly as they expect and as such they hope for subversion.

Personally this isn't really how I view it as I feel that delivery matters a great deal - in this case Belkar saving the world or Hinjo and dying in the attempt, the Oracle merely lying, Belkar betraying the order and being cut down by Roy, Roy betraying the Order and cutting down Belkar as his opening betrayal etc whatever occurs the delivery (including impact on the wider story) would likely matter more to me then the top level details.

[Zarhan]

I am still not clear why Belkar dying saving the world needs to be "subverted," or why it would be better if he died doing something relatively meaningless by comparison.

Basically, the whole comic has been parodying, lampshading, subverting, and tiptoeing all around the tropes typically associated with your standard high fantasy story (including the young guy being named as the One), so essentially I'm just rooting for Rich's skills as a storyteller to come up with something satisfying.

[Ruck]

Basically, the whole comic has been parodying, lampshading, subverting, and tiptoeing all around the tropes typically associated with your standard high fantasy story

Has it? That's not what I see. "Band of misfits led by a hero come together to defeat the bad guy who wants to take over the world" seems about as standard as it gets.

I'll add, separately, that tropes become tropes for a reason: because they are effective storytelling devices. There is no valuable in subverting them for the sole reason of not delivering the expected payoff.

[Tubercular Ox]

His biggest achievement on this front, if you ask me, is still the time when he managed to intellectually intimidate V in Origin. And he didn't stutter.

Before the update, even, when he was less intimidating.

[KorvinStarmast]

I am still not clear why Belkar dying saving the world needs to be "subverted," or why it would be better if he died doing something relatively meaningless by comparison. FWIW, from where I sit, trope subversion is rarely good writing. (Mind you, when it is done well, I do enjoy it).

Has it? That's not what I see. "Band of misfits led by a hero come together to defeat the bad guy who wants to take over the world" seems about as standard as it gets.

I'll add, separately, that tropes become tropes for a reason: because they are effective storytelling devices. There is no valuable in subverting them for the sole reason of not delivering the expected payoff. Last sentence for The Win.

As to Belkar's motivations:
He spent about 600 strips without any. Then came Dream Quest with Shojo.
First objective seems to have been to discover how much fun "fake it" can be.
Worked well enough.
And then came Durkon's death scenes, Durkon's sacrifice for Belkar - this threw Belkar for a loop. (He didn't blame me).

Here's what I think his motivation has become:

To become worthy of Durkon's sacrifice for him. For him to do that he has to win a battle with himself / his old self. It seems to me that Minrah is an enabler/catalyst in fighting that battle successfully.

[Ruck]

FWIW, from where I sit, trope subversion is rarely good writing.

I think even one of the more well-known and highly-praised examples, A Game of Thrones, isn't quite as subversive as it seems. On the one hand, it is in the sense that Ned is set up as the good and honorable guy and so fantasy tradition dictates he'll win... But throughout the book (and the first season of the show), he (and Catelyn for that matter, ref. the arrest of Tyrion) is consistently shown to be in over his head and terrible at realpolitik-- easily manipulated by people like Littlefinger, constantly putting a rigid notion of honor and following the rules ahead of the real consequences of his actions, etc. It's subversive in the sense that he's been set up to be a heroic figure, but less so if you're actually paying attention to what he does and how he consistently puts his abstract principles ahead of the material realities he's dealing with, ahead of the consequences of his actions and how other people will respond to those actions. Of course it ends badly for him; he's a moral absolutist in a consequentialist world.

(I think even his first scene, executing the Night's Watch deserter, foreshadows this: The guy has a genuine reason to flee and a genuine danger it's important he warn the North about. And rather than considering that, Ned executes him anyway, because The Rules Say So. It foreshadows his rigid thinking and inability to adjust his approach to the actual situation he finds himself in.)

[KorvinStarmast]

I think even one of the more well-known and highly-praised examples, A Game of Thrones, isn't quite as subversive as it seems. {snip nice write up} My copy of A Game of Thrones {1} has on the front cover: Jon Snow.
I figured out who the protagonist was rather quickly. :smallbiggrin:

As to the other point: Ned seems to have had the "Lawful Stupid" or "Lawful Stubborn" trait chosen for him by the Author. He needed it to get the plot rolling, and to get the reader used to "characters I like get killed" over the course of the series.

{1} it is paperback (https://i.pinimg.com/originals/02/40/b8/0240b856b85999e52032c1463f6576c4.jpg), I have sold off the rest to the second hand book store in sheer frustration at GRRM for failing to complete his story - he broke his promise baldly.

[Fyraltari]

I think even one of the more well-known and highly-praised examples, A Game of Thrones, isn't quite as subversive as it seems. On the one hand, it is in the sense that Ned is set up as the good and honorable guy and so fantasy tradition dictates he'll win... But throughout the book (and the first season of the show), he (and Catelyn for that matter, ref. the arrest of Tyrion) is consistently shown to be in over his head and terrible at realpolitik-- easily manipulated by people like Littlefinger, constantly putting a rigid notion of honor and following the rules ahead of the real consequences of his actions, etc. It's subversive in the sense that he's been set up to be a heroic figure, but less so if you're actually paying attention to what he does and how he consistently puts his abstract principles ahead of the material realities he's dealing with, ahead of the consequences of his actions and how other people will respond to those actions.
It's a testament to Martin's writing abilities that he did the exact same thing with Robb and we all fell for it again.

Of course it ends badly for him; he's a moral absolutist in a consequentialist world.

The real tragedy is that in the very end he did put his morals away for the sake of consequences (he lied about himself, Stannis and Cersei's children to protect his daughters) and it didn't help.

(I think even his first scene, executing the Night's Watch deserter, foreshadows this: The guy has a genuine reason to flee and a genuine danger it's important he warn the North about. And rather than considering that, Ned executes him anyway, because The Rules Say So. It foreshadows his rigid thinking and inability to adjust his approach to the actual situation he finds himself in.)
Err, no. Gared was driven "half-mad" by his experience and couldn't make head or tail of his ramblings.

[Synesthesy]

George Martin is a good writer because, after many many many years of fantasy books (some good, some bad, some very good, some very bad), he knows when it's good to follow tropes and when it's better to subvert them. That also mean that you cannot know if the next trope will be followed or subverted, and I am almost sure that this is exactly his reason for writing as he does.

But attenction, it isn't needed to subvert plots to be a good writer. A good example for this can be George Lucas: Star Wars first movie is literally the Hero's journey step by step, every trope here is good.

For the Order of the Stick, I am sure that the happy ending will mean that no member of the Order will die.

[Peelee]

George Martin is a good writer because

I have not read his works, but based solely on ome of my friends numerous complaints, I would say George Martin is not a good writer as that necessitates that he write. :smalltongue:

[Fyraltari]

I have not read his works, but based solely on ome of my friends numerous complaints, I would say George Martin is not a good writer as that necessitates that he write. :smalltongue:

Looks at the 32-book long Wild Cards ongoing series, the unfinished A Song of Ice And Fire series, the unfinished tales of Dunk and Egg series, the unreleased Fire and Blood: Part II, Elden Ring, many T.V. episodes.

...

Maybe Martin could profit from writing less.

[Peelee]

Looks at the 32-book long Wild Cards ongoing series, the unfinished A Song of Ice And Fire series, the unfinished tales of Dunk and Egg series, the unreleased Fire and Blood: Part II, Elden Ring, many T.V. episodes.

...

Maybe Martin could profit from writing less.

The unfinished works were the joke, yes.

[Fyraltari]

The unfinished works were the joke, yes.

I know. And mine was that he's writing too many different things at once.

[KorvinStarmast]

For the Order of the Stick, I am sure that the happy ending will mean that no member of the Order will die. I am confident that Belkar will die, and that V might die.

[Peelee]

I know. And mine was that he's writing too many different things at once.

Well, not writing that many things. :smallamused:

[hroþila]

He's not writing what people want him to write specifically, but he seems to be pretty prolific otherwise.
I mean, he still has a blog.

[Ruck]

Err, no. Gared was driven "half-mad" by his experience and couldn't make head or tail of his ramblings.

Hmm. My memory of the first book/season is heavily influenced by the TV show (which, also, admittedly, I haven't seen the first season since 2011), but I seem to remember him (there may have been two in the TV series, so one of them) saying "I know my life is forfeit, but I must tell you what I saw" or something like that.

Unfortunately, I couldn't confirm this, and I'm not watching again to find out. The closest I found is a copy of the pilot script online (which may not have been the final shooting script), where his final words are whispered to Ned. Bran mentions that Gared said he saw the Others, and Ned dismisses it as the words of a madman.


I am confident that Belkar will die, and that V might die.

I feel similarly.


Looks at the 32-book long Wild Cards ongoing series, the unfinished A Song of Ice And Fire series, the unfinished tales of Dunk and Egg series, the unreleased Fire and Blood: Part II, Elden Ring, many T.V. episodes.


The unfinished works were the joke, yes.

Honestly I feel like he's just lost interest in finishing A Song of Ice and Fire. He had trouble getting it to where he wanted for the endgame*, and then with the TV show coming out, knowing it would get to the ending first-- and being able to relish in his new wave of fame and fortune-- I think he just decided to spend the rest of his life doing / writing things that interested him more than that.

(* - I also think it's related that the first three books in the series were published in the course of five years, while the next two each took five years and were increasingly bloated and meandering. I've heard that the reason he even has "chapters of The Winds of Winter" is that they were supposed to be the climax of A Dance With Dragons but they literally couldn't fit in the book to bind it.)

[Errorname]

The TV show made a lot of changes that made Eddard and Sons come off a lot stupider than they were in the books, and treated their downfalls as more inevitable. They all come off a lot more capable in the books, clever and skilled but with fatal flaws rather than complete dumbasses who are only good at swinging swords. Ned in particular felt more like a fish out of water, someone who was a very capable warleader and politician back home who couldn't adapt to the unfamiliar terrain of the capitol in time, and even then it still took quite a streak of bad luck to see him actually dead

Honestly I'm more sympathetic to the delays than most. It's a big complex book with a huge cast and a lot of moving parts, and expectations are extremely high. I doubt he wants to leave the series unfinished but it's a daunting task.

[Fyraltari]

Hmm. My memory of the first book/season is heavily influenced by the TV show (which, also, admittedly, I haven't seen the first season since 2011), but I seem to remember him (there may have been two in the TV series, so one of them) saying "I know my life is forfeit, but I must tell you what I saw" or something like that. Unfortunately, I couldn't confirm this, and I'm not watching again to find out. The closest I found is a copy of the pilot script online (which may not have been the final shooting script), where his final words are whispered to Ned. Bran mentions that Gared said he saw the Others, and Ned dismisses it as the words of a madman.
I've not seen the show, but that's definitely not in the books. Gared is silent during his execution and Ned tells Cat that trying to get through to him when he interrogated him was like talking to a brick wall. Hell, he still concludes there's something funny going on up North, and starts planning to head to the Wall, but Cat shows him the letter she's just received and then the plot happens.


Honestly I feel like he's just lost interest in finishing A Song of Ice and Fire. He had trouble getting it to where he wanted for the endgame*, and then with the TV show coming out, knowing it would get to the ending first-- and being able to relish in his new wave of fame and fortune-- I think he just decided to spend the rest of his life doing / writing things that interested him more than that.
I don't know. Of course none of us have access to his mind, but he often claims to have made some progress on the book (I think the last figure he's given was 75% done). Undeniably there's an element of procrastination at play, as well as distractions in the form of other projects. And I think the existencz of the Internet which allows for the spread of theories probably took some of the fun out. Like everyone knows R+L=J now.

But, it's also true that it's a massive, very intricate story, that he left in a particularly tangled place. So it's a lot of work.



The TV show made a lot of changes that made Eddard and Sons come off a lot stupider than they were in the books, and treated their downfalls as more inevitable. They all come off a lot more capable in the books, clever and skilled but with fatal flaws rather than complete dumbasses who are only good at swinging swords. Ned in particular felt more like a fish out of water, someone who was a very capable warleader and politician back home who couldn't adapt to the unfamiliar terrain of the capitol in time, and even then it still took quite a streak of bad luck to see him actually dead

Yeah, book Eddard really only made two mistakes: putting two much trust in his wife's childhood friend Littlefinger and giving Cersei a chance to stand down preemptively/refusing to capture the Lannister kids immediately.
He was actually competent enough to get Illyrio and Varys worried.

But he got hampered by Lysa's lie about the Lannisters, Cat's capture of Tyrion (which wouldn't have been so bad if Lysa hadn't released him pretty much immediately), Sansa prattling his plans to Cersei, Stannis going to freaking sulk in Dragonstone instead of warning him or doing anything constructive for months on end, Robert getting boar'd and the fact that both Littlefinger and Varys were deliberately pushing for the war. He's done pretty well, all things considered.


Honestly I'm more sympathetic to the delays than most. It's a big complex book with a huge cast and a lot of moving parts, and expectations are extremely high. I doubt he wants to leave the series unfinished but it's a daunting task.
Yeah. I feel like the character split of book 4 and 5 was already a sign that he had underestimated the complexity of the task.

[Ruck]

Honestly I'm more sympathetic to the delays than most. It's a big complex book with a huge cast and a lot of moving parts, and expectations are extremely high. I doubt he wants to leave the series unfinished but it's a daunting task.

It's not just that it's daunting, it's that I see all the other writing he's doing and the traveling and conventions and press over the last 12 years, and I wonder, when does he even have the time to also work on The Winds of Winter?


I don't know. Of course none of us have access to his mind, but he often claims to have made some progress on the book (I think the last figure he's given was 75% done). Undeniably there's an element of procrastination at play, as well as distractions in the form of other projects. And I think the existencz of the Internet which allows for the spread of theories probably took some of the fun out. Like everyone knows R+L=J now.

But, it's also true that it's a massive, very intricate story, that he left in a particularly tangled place. So it's a lot of work.


Yeah. I feel like the character split of book 4 and 5 was already a sign that he had underestimated the complexity of the task.

So I have heard that Martin initially wanted to jump forward in time from the story after the events of A Storm of Swords, but instead decided to write through it. In any case, whether or not that's true, I've found books four and five to be much more meandering, introducing even more new characters and side stories without much moving the main plot forward. (I also thought that book 5 was a noticeable drop in quality.) And I think Martin has just been having trouble connecting the dots in a way to push his story forward and put his characters where they need to be for the endgame, and I don't know if he's still trying to write through it, but after twelve years and seeing how much time he's putting into other projects (and, not to put too fine a point on it, that he's 74 years old), I just don't know if he hasn't solved it by now how he's going to find the time to finish.

[KorvinStarmast]

Honestly I'm more sympathetic to the delays than most. It's a big complex book with a huge cast and a lot of moving parts, and expectations are extremely high. I doubt he wants to leave the series unfinished but it's a daunting task. Lack of discipline, falling in love with secondary and tertiary characters, and an editor who won't or can't do their job. He's not the first writer who has fallen into this trap. But he also has not dedicated the time and effort to solve his self inflicted plot snarls. The prequels and other adventures he has written take away from his creative time and effort to finish the series. Takes his fans for granted, and for that I am done with him.

It's not just that it's daunting, it's that I see all the other writing he's doing and the traveling and conventions and press over the last 12 years, and I wonder, when does he even have the time to also work on The Winds of Winter? That also.

In any case, whether or not that's true, I've found books four and five to be much more meandering, introducing even more new characters and side stories without much moving the main plot forward. (I also thought that book 5 was a noticeable drop in quality.) Noticed that as well.

[Precure]

The order is basically his Get Out of Jail Free card since the prequel, despite of his continuous criminal behavior. Few weeks ago he had that dream(?) with Shoujo and since then he tries to be nice guy, so they would keep him in the team. Of course he sucked at this, but after Durkon's sacrifice he suddenly had a change of personality, revealing his hidden self loathing and shows us that he feels guilty about Durkon. My theory is, he developed a crush on Durkon, like the time he implied to have feelings toward V due to V's helps to him against Miko.

[Metastachydium]

had that dream(?) with Shoujo

I'm sure Belkar gets lots of dreams with particular kinds of shoujos in them, but that might not be the spelling you're looking for.

[Precure]

I'm sure Belkar gets lots of dreams with particular kinds of shoujos in them, but that might not be the spelling you're looking for.

Well, despite of auto-correct's fault, considering the other Azurite name he choose (Miko Miyazaki) you can't prove that Shojo's name isn't coming from Shoujo. Also, I hope Belkar doesn't dream about any kinds of shoujo, considering its meaning.

[Metastachydium]

Well, despite of auto-correct's fault, considering the other Azurite name he choose (Miko Miyazaki) you can't prove that Shojo's name isn't coming from Shoujo.

I kind of remember the Giant had a remark on it, but I'm too lazy to dig it up.


Also, I hope Belkar doesn't dream about any kinds of shoujo, considering its meaning.

Weeeeellll… (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0338.html)

[Jasdoif]

Well, despite of auto-correct's fault, considering the other Azurite name he choose (Miko Miyazaki) you can't prove that Shojo's name isn't coming from Shoujo.I kind of remember the Giant had a remark on it, but I'm too lazy to dig it up.You may be thinking of this specific bit from the post about Azurite names:


Shojo: Cribbed from Legend of the Five Rings setting, where one of the Phoenix clan families is called Shojo. Where they got it from, I have no idea.

[Metastachydium]

You may be thinking of this specific bit from the post about Azurite names:



Wisdom hath spoken! That would precisely be it, yes. Many thanks, Great and Mighty Banana!

[Precure]

Can't find any character in Phoenix Clan's wiki page, but in their homeland, Rokugan ("Emerald Land"), shojo is apparently a term for maiden.

[Metastachydium]

Can't find any character in Phoenix Clan's wiki page, but in their homeland, Rokugan ("Emerald Land"), shojo is apparently a term for maiden.

Huh. Someone made their research, then! (Not the Giant, though, this time.) Cool to know, thanks for checking.

[Tubercular Ox]

I think if there's really a phoenix clan family named Shojo, it's likely this Shojo (https://jisho.org/search/%E7%94%9F%E6%89%80). I can't find them on wiki or in card databases, though.

Or is Rich thinking of one of these (https://l5r.fandom.com/wiki/Shojo)?

It's common for period Japanese romanizations to fail to mark long vowels, mostly because period written Japanese failed to mark them. It's why the whole country went through a spelling reform shortly after WWII. Jiujitsu had already moved to Brazil at the time, so it missed becoming Juujutsu... which still gets spelled jujutsu in casual usage, now that I think about it.

Anyways, Shojo sounds much more Japanese with a long vowel in the middle. I've always pronounced it that way, without Rich's permission. Hopefully he's okay with that.

[Metastachydium]

Anyways, Shojo sounds much more Japanese with a long vowel in the middle. I've always pronounced it that way, without Rich's permission. Hopefully he's okay with that.

No! This slight shall be avenged with extreme prejudice! TREMBLE! TREMBLE!! (But seriously, if (mentally) pronouncing character names unlike how the author envisioned them would be an issue, I'd been in court or fighting a hopeless asymmetrical war for years at this point. There's been a whole thread about the various ways We the Readers'd pronounce the names back when and the Banhammer hasn't murderized anyone into pulp anyone for it. So far.)

[Fyraltari]

Huh.

I had always assumed "Miko Miyazaki, Paladin in service of Lord Shojo" was a riff on people throwing random Japanese words they vaguely know as flavor in their games and end up with ridiculous/cliché nonsense like this.

[Doctor West]

To chime in as a bilingual person, Miko is actually a name. You just wouldn't typically write it with the same characters as the miko that everyone* knows as a religious title. Shojo, however, is neither a Japanese given name nor surname regardless of where you do or do not elongate it, and as far as I know doesn't fit naming conventions for any other southeast Asian country either, so I guess we have the 90s and L5R to thank for that gem.

*By which I mean mostly anime and Touhou fans.

[KorvinStarmast]

I kind of remember the Giant had a remark on it, but I'm too lazy to dig it up.
Weeeeellll… (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0338.html) In a similar vein, it is my hypothesis that Belkar was projecting a little bit when he doubled down on his assertion that Roy wanted to bone Miko (where Roy evntually gets exasperated and asks people to stop using 'bone' as a verb' in the last panel). I formed that hypothesis as a rider/companion to V's working hypothesis on the two basic natures of Belkar: lust and hate.

The order is basically his Get Out of Jail Free card since the prequel, despite of his continuous criminal behavior. True enough, but his tale has grown in telling.

[Metastachydium]

To chime in as a bilingual person, Miko is actually a name. You just wouldn't typically write it with the same characters as the miko that everyone* knows as a religious title. Shojo, however, is neither a Japanese given name nor surname regardless of where you do or do not elongate it, and as far as I know doesn't fit naming conventions for any other southeast Asian country either, so I guess we have the 90s and L5R to thank for that gem.

Trivia for the win!


In a similar vein, it is my hypothesis that Belkar was projecting a little bit when he doubled down on his assertion that Roy wanted to bone Miko (where Roy evntually gets exasperated and asks people to stop using 'bone' as a verb' in the last panel).

Well, Belkar does assert earlier that he finds Miko aesthetically pleasing (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0220.html), but to be fair, he's not wrong about Roy.

[Synesthesy]

I always thought that Shojo was a chinese word, and that the Giant was mixing Japan, China and Corea just like the common western fantasy creator that consider Asia just a big country all the same...

[Ruck]

I always thought that Shojo was a chinese word, and that the Giant was mixing Japan, China and Corea just like the common western fantasy creator that consider Asia just a big country all the same...

Azure City's naming conventions are definitely pulled from a number of Asian cultures, but I think Rich is quite conscious of that and tried to be specific to a culture with each person, rather than just making up names that "sound Asian," so to speak. (I think there may even be a forum post or book commentary on this topic.)

[Metastachydium]

Azure City's naming conventions are definitely pulled from a number of Asian cultures, but I think Rich is quite conscious of that and tried to be specific to a culture with each person, rather than just making up names that "sound Asian," so to speak. (I think there may even be a forum post or book commentary on this topic.)

You sure you don't mean what the Banana generously provided above?


You may be thinking of this specific bit from the post about Azurite names:

[Fyraltari]

Azure City's naming conventions are definitely pulled from a number of Asian cultures, but I think Rich is quite conscious of that and tried to be specific to a culture with each person, rather than just making up names that "sound Asian," so to speak. (I think there may even be a forum post or book commentary on this topic.)

It's a small plot point in HtPGhS. It's explained that Azure City used to be a melting pot of cultures from all over the Southern Continent who had been subjugated by the Ancient Empire. O-Chul is able to deduce from Gin-Jun's name that their respective ancestors belonged to the same group (fantasy Koreans) and that he therefore would probably recognize and honor one of their ancient customs (which, to my knowledge was a real feudal Korea custom).

[Metastachydium]

It's a small plot point in HtPGhS. It's explained that Azure City used to be a melting pot of cultures from all over the Southern Continent who had been subjugated by the Ancient Empire. O-Chul is able to deduce from Gin-Jun's name that their respective ancestors belonged to the same group (fantasy Koreans) and that he therefore would probably recognize and honor one of their ancient customs (which, to my knowledge was a real feudal Korea custom).

(I really need to get my hands leaves or whatever on Good Deeds one of these days. That's just majestically played.)

[Peelee]

(I really need to get my hands leaves or whatever on Good Deeds one of these days. That's just majestically played.)

It's the best book, IMO. It's also hard to say what the best story is. O-Chul's is obviously the headliner but Lien's gives it a run for its money.

[Jasdoif]

my hands leaves or whateverFronds?


It's also hard to say what the best story is.Huh. If you'd said it's hard to spell what the best story is, I'd accept that "pier" is likely the most unorthodox spelling in the titles....

[Ruck]

Huh. If you'd said it's hard to spell what the best story is, I'd accept that "pier" is likely the most unorthodox spelling in the titles....

It's not even the first "Pier Pressure" (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrested_Development_(season_1)) pun in media.

[Peelee]

It's not even the first "Pier Pressure" (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrested_Development_(season_1)) pun in media.

Now the story of a wealthy adventuring party who lost everything, and the one Fighter who had no choice but to keep them all together. It's arrested development.

[Ruck]

Now the story of a wealthy adventuring party who lost everything, and the one Fighter who had no choice but to keep them all together. It's arrested development.

"Bloodstone is also the city's gladiatorial arena."
"You'll be done with your sentence in a week, tops!"
"I got the worst [BLEEP]ing attorneys."

[Goosefarble]

It's the best book, IMO. It's also hard to say what the best story is. O-Chul's is obviously the headliner but Lien's gives it a run for its money.

Hard agree. Lien's story is really good, O-chul's is one of the best OOTS tales out there, and the Kazumi and Daigo story is a barrel o' laughs.

[Metastachydium]

Fronds?

Sure(, but in the broader sense!), thanks. (You know, I'm increasingly certain you entered Eldritch Disciple through Cloistered Cleric to grab Lore.)

[Ionathus]

(I really need to get my hands leaves or whatever on Good Deeds one of these days. That's just majestically played.)

You absolutely do. It's a phenomenal exploration of O-Chul's character, and the payoff of his story in particular is exquisite. Seeing him confront a very fraught scenario just gave me even more respect for him as a character.


It's the best book, IMO. It's also hard to say what the best story is. O-Chul's is obviously the headliner but Lien's gives it a run for its money.

O-Chul's is by far my favorite, probably because of length, but also because I find him the most interesting character. Watching him be so principled and trying to navigate the situation while keeping to his code was excellent.

I enjoyed the entire book though, and Therkla's and Lien's stories also deserve honorable mention. The Katos storyline is mostly just fun but still gives them a sweet little bit of extra characterization too, and the Mr. Scruffy section is also a very fun intermission.

Whole book's a treat, honestly. Definitely pick up at least the ebook if you can.

[Blue Dragon]

(…)the journey inside this halfling's head

Let's talk about Lord Shojo, Mr. Scruffy, the Mark of Justice, Roy, Durkon, Xykon and the Quinton.

Lord Shojo was one of the few people Belkar actually liked and his death probably was the first that Belkar didn't enjoy seeing happening. It was the first time Belkar thought that killing somebody was wrong.

Mr. Scruffy (in ur cassle advisin ur king) is still something that is linked to a Ranger by design: an (Halfling-sized) animal companion - even if not his. He can't help himself to give some attention to it. And later, he took it into care finally having anything else besides himself to care about: the pet of the only person he didn't want to see die.

Then you have the Mark of Justice. It made Belkar consider his actions for the first time in his Cruel life. Not only that, but narrowed his objectives towards other vile monsters instead of anything that lives. It gave him focus.

Roy was the guide around Belkar's chest and without him, he became more and more unhinged, until the point he indulged in his homicidal tendences to the point he ruined everything. So Hippie Vision Quest mode happening and then that grain of Wisdom is dropped: consider your words and actions to take what you want, even if you don't know exactly what you want.

Durkon not only let himself killed for him, he didn't blame Belkar for not being able to help him. Belkar never assumed somebody could care about him, because the best he could do was fake caring. That "was the drop of water". To the point he ended the existence of a vampire out of pity!

Xykon and the Quinton are the reason I came to these conclusions. Because of all PCs assembled, Belkar was by far the greatest source of pure Chaos. Everything that happened since Miyazaki-san moved to Fallsville forced him to reflect about who he is, what he wants, what he says and how he acts. Different enough of Elan, Great Beast in Shadow, Haley and Vaarsavius, but somehow still paralleled, even for Greg.

You examine your life and reflect about it long enough and eventually you'll know who is looking to you in the mirror. I should know.

Thanks for coming to my OOTS Talk, I don't expect this helps anybody at all, but I wish you all have a nice weekend.

[Metastachydium]

Let's talk about Lord Shojo, Mr. Scruffy, the Mark of Justice, Roy, Durkon, Xykon and the Quinton.

Lord Shojo was maybe the first person Belkar actually liked without falling in the "lust slot"

One contention here: the "hate/lust" theory was always just V overthinking the Incident, rather than an accurate representation of how Belkar's mind actually works. Belkar has demonstrated the capacity to enjoy other people's company before Shojo entered the stage, even Elan's (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0153.html) and later interactions revealed he used to have friends (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0685.html) (inasmuch as a Chaotic Evil twit like him can form such bonds) and was likely at least somewhat fond of some family members he had (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1251.html). And then, of course, there's his racial pride, handing out brownie points to anyone and everyone who happens to also be a halfling.

[Kish]

I am unconvinced by both arguments, for my part. He was able, without hesitation, to transition between laughing with Elan and trying to murder Elan because he was annoyed to be slightly short of enough XP to level and Elan was the most vulnerable target around. He killed Buggy Lou without hesitation in the strip Meta linked. He talked about planning to kill his family.

Just as Belkar was and is still a ranger who doesn't cast spells, he could easily have remained a ranger without an animal companion forever--or been, like Yukyuk, a ranger who enjoyed sadistically tormenting every animal except his own animal companion. Belkar could have killed Shojo without a second thought, just as he could have anyone else he interacted with. He was just annoyed that Miko killed him while Belkar was still finding him amusing alive. Mr. Scruffy didn't stand for anything else, not related to Belkar being a ranger and not related to Shojo; Mr. Scruffy was the first entity other than himself Belkar truly cared about.

He kept trying to ignore the Mark of Justice until it finally sprang, when Roy was alive and when he was dead. (Ask the three novice barbarians how good Roy was at guiding Belkar.) The dream convinced him he needed to fake cooperation with the Order better if he wanted them to not get rid of him; it didn't make him actually any less vile. His development of empathy all started with Mr. Scruffy, moved on to Enor when Roy made an analogy that made him think about his relationship with Mr. Scruffy, and finally started including guilt when the one member of the Order who had the least in common with Belkar sacrificed himself to save him.

[Metastachydium]

I am unconvinced by both arguments, for my part. He was able, without hesitation, to transition between laughing with Elan and trying to murder Elan because he was annoyed to be slightly short of enough XP to level and Elan was the most vulnerable target around. He killed Buggy Lou without hesitation in the strip Meta linked. He talked about planning to kill his family.

Allegedly, he even killed Halflings during that one afterparty, yes! All I'm saying is, he never operated under a lust/hate principle.


Just as Belkar was and is still a ranger who doesn't cast spells, he could easily have remained a ranger without an animal companion forever--or been, like Yukyuk, a ranger who enjoyed sadistically tormenting every animal except his own animal companion. Belkar could have killed Shojo without a second thought, just as he could have anyone else he interacted with. He was just annoyed that Miko killed him while Belkar was still finding him amusing alive. Mr. Scruffy didn't stand for anything else, not related to Belkar being a ranger and not related to Shojo; Mr. Scruffy was the first entity other than himself Belkar truly cared about.

In actual fact, Shojo as another Elan (funny to have around so long as no proper bare Halfling toes are stepped on), in terms of relationship types does indeed make sense (albeit there is no clear indication that Belkar ever intended to harm him for XP or the heck of it).


He kept trying to ignore the Mark of Justice until it finally sprang, when Roy was alive and when he was dead. (Ask the three novice barbarians how good Roy was at guiding Belkar.)

While that's probably cold comfort to those guys, the Bureaucratic Deva would say "pretty darn good, given what he had to work with" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html).


The dream convinced him he needed to fake cooperation with the Order better if he wanted them to not get rid of him; it didn't make him actually any less vile. His development of empathy all started with Mr. Scruffy, moved on to Enor when Roy made an analogy that made him think about his relationship with Mr. Scruffy, and finally started including guilt when the one member of the Order who had the least in common with Belkar sacrificed himself to save him.

That much I'll readily concede, however.

[Precure]

It's kinda wild how much of V's hate/lust theory still makes sense regarding why he was nice to that gnome girl and why he began to feel guilt after Durkon died while saving him.

[Metastachydium]

It's kinda wild how much of V's hate/lust theory still makes sense regarding why (…) he began to feel guilt after Durkon died while saving him.

I see what you mean, but Belkar canonically isn't that much into him (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1151.html).

[hroþila]

It's kinda wild how much of V's hate/lust theory still makes sense regarding why he was nice to that gnome girl and why he began to feel guilt after Durkon died while saving him.
I would say V's theory never made any sense, except as an attempt by V to rationalize what happened. It never stood to closer scrutiny and I don't think it was meant to.

[Precure]

I see what you mean, but Belkar canonically isn't that much into him (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1151.html).

We're getting very different impressions from that strip, I believe.


I would say V's theory never made any sense, except as an attempt by V to rationalize what happened. It never stood to closer scrutiny and I don't think it was meant to.

Do you have a better explanation?

[KorvinStarmast]

He kept trying to ignore the Mark of Justice until it finally sprang, when Roy was alive and when he was dead. (Ask the three novice barbarians how good Roy was at guiding Belkar.) The dream convinced him he needed to fake cooperation with the Order better if he wanted them to not get rid of him; it didn't make him actually any less vile. His development of empathy all started with Mr. Scruffy, moved on to Enor when Roy made an analogy that made him think about his relationship with Mr. Scruffy, and finally started including guilt when the one member of the Order who had the least in common with Belkar sacrificed himself to save him. Thanks for a well presented summary. All of that lines up with how it came across to me.

I would say V's theory never made any sense, except as an attempt by V to rationalize what happened. It never stood to closer scrutiny and I don't think it was meant to. I get the idea that V came up with that hypothesis in a little bit of self defense, based on The Incident (which included some folks being well into their cups). While V is very intelligent, the hypothesis is at least a little self serving. And, uh, it's also a joke. :smallwink:

ETA: also, what if Belkar is in the running for being the best kisser on three continents?
There was that kiss for V during The Incident, and this kiss which suggests (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html), slightly, that perhaps his "Sexy Shoeless God Of War" sell-glossing has some merit?

Or maybe they were both for comedic effect.

[Metastachydium]

We're getting very different impressions from that strip, I believe.

1. That was a joke.
2. Belkar only being able to Hate or Lust people is possibly the worst explanation for the Gnome Shopkeeper and Durkon scenarios both that I can think of.

[hroþila]

Do you have a better explanation?
For what specifically? Kissing V?

[Metastachydium]

For what specifically? Kissing V?

Next you'll tell me poor visibility and playing a drinking game with a Dwarf had anything to do with that!

[Precure]

2. Belkar only being able to Hate or Lust people is possibly the worst explanation for the Gnome Shopkeeper and Durkon scenarios both that I can think of.

It is the worst possible explanation, but remember, Belkar is one of the worst people you'll ever see.


For what specifically? Kissing V?

Yes.

[Metastachydium]

It is the worst possible explanation, but remember, Belkar is one of the worst people you'll ever see.

At Tinkertown and especially Firmament? He doesn't even make top three, probably.



Yes.

Next I'll tell you poor visibility and playing a drinking game with a Dwarf had something to do with that! Can you imagine?

[Emberlily]

in a thread where people explain belkar's character growth and development and arc over the past several storylines in detail multiple times, it's a bit weird to see (if one even took V's psychoanalysis of belkar to be true at the time) belkar's characterization during book 2 as the best explanation for his actions in book 6 that seem to exist for the purpose of demonstrating that he's changed and still changing. do you reject the idea that the intent of the story is to show belkar having changed at all?

[KorvinStarmast]

in a thread where people explain belkar's character growth and development and arc over the past several storylines in detail multiple times, it's a bit weird to see (if one even took V's psychoanalysis of belkar to be true at the time) belkar's characterization during book 2 as the best explanation for his actions in book 6 that seem to exist for the purpose of demonstrating that he's changed and still changing. do you reject the idea that the intent of the story is to show belkar having changed at all? What if he's still faking it? (Per book 4?) :smallannoyed:
(I don't think that's the message being sent, by the author, per the Ultimate Extreme Apology (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1151.html) strip with Durkon and the conversations he has with Minrah).

[Precure]

Next I'll tell you poor visibility and playing a drinking game with a Dwarf had something to do with that! Can you imagine?

Drinking makes you fell in love with elves?

[brian 333]

Drinking makes you fell in love with elves?

That actually explains a lot of things I never understood before.

[hroþila]

Yes.
I'd say it was just an instance of Belkar being extremely drunk and thus uninhibited enough to kiss V, who he presumably finds physically attractive to some degree (although he was drunk enough that he might well have kissed V regardless of any physical attraction just because it was the thing to do after the New Year's countdown). I don't see how this isn't much more plausible than V's self-serving theory.

Drinking makes you fell in love with elves?
Love?

[Precure]

I'd say it was just an instance of Belkar being extremely drunk and thus uninhibited enough to kiss V, who he presumably finds physically attractive to some degree (although he was drunk enough that he might well have kissed V regardless of any physical attraction just because it was the thing to do after the New Year's countdown). I don't see how this isn't much more plausible than V's self-serving theory.

First part of your post is consistent with V's theory: as he was attracted to V due to their saving him from Miko, and he kissed when he finally became unhibited due to being drunk. I don't think he ever shown any hint of attraction to them before, so V's theory makes more sense to me.


Love?

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0483.html

[hroþila]

First part of your post is consistent with V's theory: as he was attracted to V due to their saving him from Miko, and he kissed when he finally became unhibited due to being drunk. I don't think he ever shown any hint of attraction to them before, so V's theory makes more sense to me.
Yes, it's compatible with V's theory because V's theory is just an unnecessary and unsupported* extra step. Occam's razor and all that.

*Belkar regularly displays more complex emotional reactions to people than just 'hate' and 'lust'. He was on friendly terms with Buggy Lou without lusting after him, for example. He has shown no signs of either hating or lusting after Minrah. He did neither hate nor lust after Shojo. V's theory simply doesn't hold, it was always about V trying to make themself feel less uncomfortable with what happened.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0483.html
I don't get it.

[KorvinStarmast]

(although he was drunk enough that he might well have kissed V regardless of any physical attraction just because it was the thing to do after the New Year's countdown). Yeah, there is that.

I don't get it. I am not sure I see the connection either.

[Metastachydium]

(And that's all before we'd get into how funny any attempt to demonstrate someone is only capable of hate or lust through arguing (regardless of the quality of evidence provided) that the person fell in love is.)

[Ionathus]

My two cents on V's hate/lust theory: it was flawed from the start, intended as a petty joke even at the time, and reducing Belkar's interactions with the gnome shopkeeper, Minrah, Durkon, Serini, and the paladins to that dichotomy is a massive disservice bordering on insult to every character involved.


Let's talk about Lord Shojo, Mr. Scruffy, the Mark of Justice, Roy, Durkon, Xykon and the Quinton.
<snip>
Thanks for coming to my OOTS Talk, I don't expect this helps anybody at all, but I wish you all have a nice weekend.

I love this breakdown. It's a wonderful summary of Belkar's journey as a character, and a perfect example of an author using multiple light brushstrokes over time to slowly build a portrait of character growth.

Belkar is my favorite example in fiction of "fake it 'till you make it" backfiring on a character. He pretended to have character growth and then actually had it by accident, thanks to the seductive power of good (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1151.html), and that's just so damn funny to me. His journey from...

"do whatever I want, damn the consequences"
to
"do whatever I can get away with, accounting for the consequences"
to
"choosing not to get away with something, even if there are no consequences"

...has been fascinating. I'm very excited to see where he goes from here.

[KorvinStarmast]

...has been fascinating. I'm very excited to see where he goes from here. It goes to his death (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html).
Not sure if that being strip number 666 has any significance, but if it does then perhaps it means that Belkar's final destination is a warm place.
Let's say he develops good intentions ... the way to hell (and maybe the abyss) is paved with them. :smallcool: