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Bellmaethorion
2007-12-07, 08:26 AM
Hello,

I've been a reader of OOTS for quite a while, but haven't joined the forums before, because I didn't play D&D myself,
but comes the wind of change, and what a gale it is.
After having somehow come on the topic of Dungeons and Dragons with someone, we both agreed it would be fun to play it.

word got around, and pretty soon, I had nine people:smalleek: , willing to try it out.
They're all friends, and I can't bring myself to say "no, the group is too big."
so now I've got a group of 9 people, of whom only 1 person played before, and another two or three know some of the basic rules.

Now, I know they don't need to know the rules, to start playing, but apart from the large size of the group, I've also never DM'ed before, I have the core books, and read both the Player Manual and most of the DM guidebook, but I don't really feel confident that I will be able to make or play a proper campaign, with so large a group of unexperienced players.

To make matters a bit more complicated, there's a few of the group of which I'm not sure whether they will like the game, or whether they will want to continue playing.

So, I'm looking for a campaign, which is not too complicated for me as a DM, or for the players, but which also has an easy way for some characters to be written off, if the players decide they don't want to continue.
However, if the group does stay this big, I'll also need a way to have them play without being overpowered by sheer number of PC's.
Are there any ways to do this beside more/bigger monsters?

Any tips or pointers would be greatly appreciated, about the campaign, dynamics, managing such a group(both IC and OOC), and anything really...

Thanks in advance.

Inyssius Tor
2007-12-07, 08:29 AM
Well, I've been wanting to run a West Marches (http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/78/grand-experiments-west-marches/)-style campaign if I ever got in that sort of situation...

Jolly Steve
2007-12-07, 08:53 AM
Have you considered playing a simpler system than 3rd edition D&D?

Have you considered doing 'play by forum' (meaning you don't have to come up with a response on the spot)?

Jolly Steve
2007-12-07, 09:05 AM
Also, have you considered having one of the 9 people be an 'assistant DM'?

Kurald Galain
2007-12-07, 09:09 AM
What I would suggest is the following:

(1) Don't swamp the new players with rules. It could be worthwhile looking into a simpler system than D&D, but if you want to stick with that I'd suggest that you make characters, and print out a simplified character sheet for each, that just lists a few things the character is good at, and how to roll for them. They don't need to know that their Move Silently score is 4 ranks + 3 dex bonus + 2 for a feat - 3 for their armor, just tell them "to sneak, roll 1d20 and add 6".

(2) If you don't want to do D&D, browse the web for free and simple systems (regardless of setting, you can always substitute your own setting). FUDGE is a possibility. Also, the Whitewolf system is surprisingly easy to start with (just download a character sheet, substitute "archery" for "firearms", sprinkle 25 skill dots at will, and grab the dice). If you do want to do D&D, I'd suggest starting at about 3rd level - lower than that, and the characters can drop like flies if they make a rash but not-so-wise decision, and higher than that it becomes more complex.

(3) Nine players is a recipe for chaos (and for some players to get distracted, or bored, or doing something else). Have two sessions, one with four players and one with five, to keep it manageable. Also, this makes planning a lot easier.

(4) Do a short adventure first, rather than a full campaign. It's okay if you start with one of the classics, like their village getting overrun by orcs, or rescuing a princess from a dragon, or whatnot. My point is that this is easier to prepare. After the adventure (which should be one or two sessions), you will likely have a bunch of players who want to do this regularly, and a bunch of people who don't. Start a campaign with the former, and ask them if they like their pregen characters or if they want to make their own.

Triaxx
2007-12-07, 09:09 AM
Instead of jumping straight into a campaign, find a few setting specific mini-quests, a little light combat, some puzzles and a few shops. That way the people who know some rules, and the one who's played before can explain things as you go. FR is one of my favorite places for this, since I can steal the opening to the original Baldur's Gate.

Proven_Paradox
2007-12-07, 09:19 AM
I know you don't want to hear it, but I highly recommend you get that group to a smaller size. Another possibility would be to split them a Galain mentions. If you simple MUST get them all in the room together, you need an assistant, as Steve suggested; see if any of them would be willing to help you there.

As others have mentioned, don't start with a full-blown campaign. Begin with a pregenerated module. There are plenty for download at the Wizards site. Just choose your preferred level, download the .pdf, and print. Make sure you read over everything first, of course, but this way, you don't have to do all the planning yourself. Pregenerated adventures are also good inspiration for future games, once you've got more experience.

RTGoodman
2007-12-07, 09:20 AM
I also highly suggest splitting the group (for now, at least). Just run two games, which will eliminate the people that don't like the game, and eventually you should get down to a group that (hopefully) has about 3-5 player (or maybe slightly more).

Secondly, I suggest using pre-written adventures. If you can get a copy, Scourge of the Howling Horde is one that was published a year or so ago (or maybe actually earlier than that, I'm not sure). If you can't find it, check here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20030530b) (the Wizards of the Coast website's selection of free, downloadable adventures). I highly recommend "A Dark and Stormy Knight," and once they hit 2nd level, "Something's Cooking."

Good luck, and welcome (to you and your whole group) to D&D! Have fun!

EDIT: Ninja'd!

Bellmaethorion
2007-12-07, 09:26 AM
Well, I've been wanting to run a West Marches (http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/78/grand-experiments-west-marches/)-style campaign if I ever got in that sort of situation...

This is brilliant... I'll probably use something like this, if not this first campaign, then at another time.


Also, have you considered having one of the 9 people be an 'assistant DM'?

There's someone else interested in DM'ing, I could ask him if he'd be willing to help.


What I would suggest is the following:

(1) Don't swamp the new players with rules. It could be worthwhile looking into a simpler system than D&D, but if you want to stick with that I'd suggest that you make characters, and print out a simplified character sheet for each, that just lists a few things the character is good at, and how to roll for them. They don't need to know that their Move Silently score is 4 ranks + 3 dex bonus + 2 for a feat - 3 for their armor, just tell them "to sneak, roll 1d20 and add 6".


I'll certainly be simplifying it, at least at first, and then slowly add more rules.
what would be a good simple character sheet to use at first?


(2)
[snip]
If you do want to do D&D, I'd suggest starting at about 3rd level - lower than that, and the characters can drop like flies if they make a rash but not-so-wise decision, and higher than that it becomes more complex.

This is also a good idea, I'll probably do so.


(3) Nine players is a recipe for chaos (and for some players to get distracted, or bored, or doing something else). Have two sessions, one with four players and one with five, to keep it manageable. Also, this makes planning a lot easier.

I think I will try, at least the first session, with the whole group, despite the chaos this might bring(maybe I'll spike their drinks with a sedative)
but I am seriously considering now to do something like the West Marches-campaign, and that would mean the group could be split into smaller groups, and I don't have to worry so much about schedules.

--

Several people have mentioned I should start with a pre-generated module, I guess that will be easier, to start with, and it'll give me time to work something out if I indeed do a West-Marches style campaign.
I'll look into it:smallwink:

thanks again to everyone:smallbiggrin:

AKA_Bait
2007-12-07, 09:35 AM
I must chime in and agree with most of the poster above me, particularly on the point of number of players. A table top game, any table top game, with 9 players tends to get a bit chaotic. For D&D where you need people to consistantly show up and pay attention it can quickly turn in to 2- 4 totally independant conversations, particularly with new players.

I've been DMing for something like 6 years now and I wouldn't feel I can control a group as large as 9 players, even 9 experienced players. Cut it down into two or three smaller groups if you want to have any realistic hope of having everyone get a handle on the rules and enjoy themselves.

One thing to note, since you say you have a few players that you think might not be in it for the long haul, put them all in one group. That way, if the group dissolves you are only, at best, looking to relocate one or two players into the other group rather than having half of both head for the door.

Finally, I'd suggest starting on some really simple adventures. The first and second level adventures that you can find free on the wizards website are all pretty simple and good for beginners. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20030530b) Start at level 1 - 3.

I hate to suggest this, but you may also want to include a Galdalf type NPC (preferably a cleric) for the first few sessions until you and they get handle on how to not get their characters killed. He can Deus Ex Machina a little and then buzz off when no longer needed.

valadil
2007-12-07, 09:50 AM
I'm a somewhat experienced DM and I would never attempt putting 9 players in a room together, even if they were experienced and well mannered.

Here's what I suggest. Run preludes for each player. I guess you can bunch characters together if they know each other. But what you want to do is get started with some one on one time with each player. Give them a little mini adventure that will hook them into the plot of whatever story you're running. Not only will it let them each learn how to play, but you'll learn a little about how to GM, without having 9 players all at once to distract you.

I don't always get to do preludes to my games, but when I have they've made things a lot more fun. You'll want to meet with people individually beforehand, rather than taking time out of the first session. I like writing my own plot, so this is where each player gets introduced to their own character's plot before being thrust into the overarching plot. However if you're running from a book maybe this is where the players could get hired for whatever mission they're on. Or something.

Sleet
2007-12-07, 11:01 AM
d20/D&D can be intimidating, but I personally think it's great for beginner players exactly because it has a lot of rules that cover a lot of situations. I love rules-light games, but I found that I had to learn some rules before I could effectively play without them. Don't let it scare you. Just learn a few at a time - start with 1st level characters, and work from there. It all builds on itself.


One thing my group has done (and had a lot of fun with) from time to time is just have a few sessions of nothing but vs. combat. We do this to test out new races, new classes, new spells, etc. This can be a great learning tool.

No storcy, no campaign, just get your players together with pizza and Cokes and roll up some characters and Fight. Each person spends a little time creating a 1st level character, and you pair off and have a bunch of little 1-on-1 fights happening all at once. This will accomplish a few things:

a) Get you and your players familiar with the character creation rules in a context where if they make suboptimal choices or pick lame feats etc. etc. , it's OK - it won't hobble them for a long-term campaign.

b) It will get you and your players used to the combat rules in a context where it's not delaying roleplaying time, as it's just about the combat and nobody really cares who wins. You learn tactics as well as the rules - what works and what doesn't once. This stuff is really useful, as the better you learn these rules, the quicker combats will go in-game.

Saph
2007-12-07, 12:08 PM
Well the serious suggestions have already been made, so here's a less serious one . . . run a horror-themed game designed to kill off every one of the PCs in as bloody and entertaining a manner as possible. 9 is a decent-sized cast for a horror movie. Send horrific monsters against them, and the game is to see how long the PCs last before they die off. When characters die they get raised as zombies/aliens/whatevers and get to turn around and try to kill their former companions.

The idea is that most of the 9 aren't going to want to play a long-running campaign anyway, so just have some short-term fun that everyone can get into while you wait for the group to naturally evolve downwards in size.

- Saph

Delta Nu Delta
2007-12-07, 01:00 PM
These are all great ideas. Saph, that sounds insanely fun. The west marches idea is also amazing.

I whole-heartedly support running a prelude. It gets people started on the rules, introduces them to what roleplaying is actually like, helps builds their character up, and allows them to get comfortable actually roleplaying in front of other humans. It can be a bit of adjustment when you first start out.

The only tidbit of advice I would offer piggy backs off what others have said. It's simply this: make sure you have open and honest communication with the 9 players about who is actually into the game. It will serve everyone's interest in the long run (probably) to whiddle the group down to a more managable size. Pay attention to who talks to you about the game afterwards, takes a keen interest in the rules, and stays focused during the session.

The quality of your players will make a huge impact on how much fun you have, and your fun is just as important as theirs (maybe even a bit more so because you're so important to each game!)

fendrin
2007-12-07, 01:06 PM
I would suggest that instead of 1 game with 9 players (one an assistant DM), split the group in two and have the other person DM a separate game.

Not only do you have a more manageable group, you can play in the other game as well.

If you have both groups playing in the same world, you could even justify having players change groups as necessary.

Bellmaethorion
2007-12-07, 01:51 PM
@ Valadil: that's an interesting idea, I'll ask around if the players would like that.

@ Sleet: what, and give them a head start on making power-play character's?:smallbiggrin:
I can see pun-pun looming already...
okay, serious again; I'll ask the players about this as well, I think some might prefer this to a prelude's to start, but then, other's would prefer the prelude.

maybe our first meeting as a group should be just battles, and when they got the hang of it, and think they'll like to play, I'll start with a small campaign.

@ Saph: hehe, it might just end up like that, if enough players quit.:nale:


I actually have a nice idea for a campaign, that I can easily turn into a West-Marches style campaign, but also into a TPK.

A new island has been discovered, and pioneers have gone to it, a fortified outpost has been set up, and seems to be doing well, until people start dissapearing, local tribes of reptilians are blamed
(they were already on the island, and a sort of peaceful relationship was set up, they traded a bit, but mostly both groups kept to their own)
however, even with extra guards on watch, they see and hear no-one get in, yet still more people go missing.
the adventure will start either with a call for help sent with a supply ship, back to the settlers country of origin, or with the PC's already on the island.
The PC's can go ahead and talk to the reptilians, or try to kill them, but this won't stop the problems, and might result in a war, and the outpost being razed to the ground.
The real reason behind people dissapearing, is a werewolf, amongst the settlers. The person isn't aware he/she is a werewolf, and changes every month.
If the players find out, they can deal with the problem in whatever way they want, but it's still not the end, because where there's a bitten, there's a biter... another werewolf is there too, fully aware of what he is.
When the first werewolf dies, this one will flee, causing trouble amongst several tribes of reptiles, and possibly even causing a siege of the outpost.
the players will have to settle it, or survive the battle, and then deal with the werewolf, before he turns someone else(which he might have done already.)

At any point in this, somehow, players can be picked off(reptilian attack, werewolf taking them away into the night, etc.)
however, if enough people want to continue playing, and they see it through to the end, and want more, then I can reveal that, beyond the island, lies a continent, a big sandbox for them to play in, I'd say.

fendrin
2007-12-07, 02:11 PM
I actually have a nice idea for a campaign <snip>

That sounds like a really good start. Just be careful about accidentally turning PCs into werewolves... in fact I might steal this for a game I may be starting soon for players of mixed D&D experience. Having the players meet on a ship is so much more interesting than in a tavern...

valadil
2007-12-07, 02:30 PM
I actually forgot the other big reason I was offering that suggestion when I posted. That's what I get for writing a rushed post at work.

If you do the prelude and someone doesn't like it, they still have an opportunity to back out. It lets your players try the game before committing to the campaign. With so many people involved, a few are bound to not find it interesting. It'll be a question of whether they bail or show up just to be social.

Bellmaethorion
2007-12-07, 02:57 PM
@ Fendrin: Go right ahead an use it, I'll probably post the story and such on here once I have it fleshed out more, and you're free to use that too.

@ Valadil: yes, you're right, I'll certainly ask whether the players would like to do this.



Would a werewolf-template PC be very overpowered at low levels?

Blasterfire
2007-12-07, 03:09 PM
Would a werewolf-template PC be very overpowered at low levels?
A werewolf has a LA of +3 and 2 racial HD, so a character with 1 PC level that is a werewolf is equivalent to a level 6 character.

fendrin
2007-12-07, 03:40 PM
Would a werewolf-template PC be very overpowered at low levels?

Yes. Blasterfire details it above (though afflicted lycanthropy is only LA +2).

How bad it would be depends on the player, and how hard-nosed you are willing to be.

If you make sure to follow the rules for lycanthropy as an affliction, it isn't overpowered at first (though still quite powerful, due to the free extra hit dice), because of the negatives and the very real possibility of losing your character.

Where you need to be hard-nosed is taking over when the alignment shifts.

I think a way to balance it out a bit would be to have the extra hit dice only apply during the shifted alignment.

Don't forget too, an involuntarily transformed werewolf is just as likely to attack the rest of the party as the party's enemies.

EDIT: another modification that can help is if you make the involuntary transformation be to the hybrid form instead of the animal form. This will decrease the likelihood of a player getting bitten, and also is how most people think of werewolves these days (although animal form is closer to the original legends)

Jolly Steve
2007-12-08, 02:52 AM
If you do want to do D&D, I'd suggest starting at about 3rd level - lower than that, and the characters can drop like flies if they make a rash but not-so-wise decision, and higher than that it becomes more complex.

I agree with the rest of your post, but not this bit. Why shouldn't the characters die if they make a bad decision?

A video game where you never lost a life and you always got through the whole game first time would get boring pretty quickly...


PS there is a problem if characters die and there's nothing for the player to do. But you can solve that by having 'reserve' non-player characters that those players can take over.

SoD
2007-12-08, 03:57 AM
I like that idea Saph...I'll do that back home if ye don't mind. How many people...the basic group, that's 5, plus reservists, 8...plus those who express interest...9....heh. This'll be fun. And a lot of time to plan!

Wow, the number nine seems to be popular, doesn't it? Still, that's including me.

Azukius
2007-12-08, 04:03 AM
What My group did in a similar situation was to split the group in two with two dms and played as competing partys, kinda like the linear guild guild and the order of the stick. worked really well untill one group (the good one) ambushed and slaughtered the other.

Bellmaethorion
2007-12-08, 04:26 AM
Making one of the PC's a werewolf seems like fun:smalltongue:
I'll probably weaken it a bit though, as Fendrin suggested.

@ Jolly Steve: They'll still die if they make a wrong choice, but I don't think that choosing to kick a chicken should kill them (darned Zelda games)

Splitting the group up is possible, but I wouldn't be surprised if one group does indeed kill the other group somehow.
I think a West-Marches style campaign would be better, at least after the first few times.
I'll just brave the storm.(or like I said before, spike their drinks, also a very viable option)

As an aside, what CR should I be going for if I do start them at level 3?

Blasterfire
2007-12-08, 10:08 AM
With a party of 9 people it becomes kind of difficult to find the exact number, but I would say EL 5 or 6, but make sure the monsters that you throw at them arent individually higher than 3-4. Any higher than that and you can start running into abilities that they cant deal with at level 3. Also, you may want to start by having the first few encounters at EL 4, just so they can get a feel for the game, and so that you can judge the proper EL. If 4 is to easy, bump it up.

Baxbart
2007-12-08, 11:13 AM
I have never really had this 'natural devolution in group size'.

I started over ten years ago with just me and one other guy.... now I regularly run games for 6-7 players, depending on if everyone can turn up (So that totals at 8 around the table including me). I actually moved from GURPS to D&D (and SWd20) for simplicity!

It is a challenge to run such a large group - and it definitely requires quite a bit of planning if you don't want the game to go completely wonky and end up meandering off in several different directions all at once. Splitting the group is always handy, and I've done it a few times (Namely because my players rarely all fit into one 'ideal', and would kill each other otherwise) and run parallel campaigns.

kjones
2007-12-08, 01:02 PM
I would recommend against starting players at 3rd level. When I began this semester at college, I started two new campaigns, one at 1st level and one at 3rd level. Both groups consisted mostly of people who had never played before. Rolling up characters is complicated enough as it is; starting at 3rd level adds additional complexity that can be overwhelming for new players.

Also, I would definitely recommend having your first session be a "character-rolling party" in which all you plan to do is roll up everyone's characters. It can be very time-consuming, especially for nine people, especially if you only have one copy of the relevant rulebooks. But it's a good time for all and helps familiarize players with basic rules.

Jolly Steve
2007-12-09, 12:58 AM
Also, I would definitely recommend having your first session be a "character-rolling party" in which all you plan to do is roll up everyone's characters. It can be very time-consuming, especially for nine people, especially if you only have one copy of the relevant rulebooks. But it's a good time for all and helps familiarize players with basic rules.

That gave me another idea - maybe you could download some copies of the relevant parts of the rules for players to refer to (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35)

Bellmaethorion
2007-12-09, 03:52 AM
@ Jolly Steve: Well, I think we have two copies of the book, but I'll see whether I need to print anything.
Could be handy for me as well to have some tables at hand.

If I do start at first level then, what challenge rating should I go for? 2-3?
I'll have most of the island planned out before we start, so it's really just about how much of the weaker monsters I need.

Kurald Galain
2007-12-09, 04:29 AM
I would recommend against starting players at 3rd level. ... Rolling up characters is complicated enough as it is; starting at 3rd level adds additional complexity that can be overwhelming for new players.
That's why I suggested pregenerated characters. At third level. I think it can be very off-putting to subject novice players, who aren't even sure they're going to make a full-time hobby out of D&D, to a full session of rolling up characters and learning rules - they'll end up asking "but when do we start playing?"

CartesianDaemon
2007-12-09, 06:54 AM
The werewolf ability wouldn't even have to be related to the dnd werewolf, if they players aren't familiar with that. For instance, you could use the stats for a barbarian, but replace raging with turning into a wolf-hybrid. Whether that is a one-off curse or blessing, or how werewolves work in that universe, or a half-werewolf, or a becoming werewolf is up to you.