Classless Spheres game

[cimbrog]

So I've been kicking around a sort of classes Spheres game. I'm designing it for a group that often makes the most mechanically suboptimal mechanical choices so I’m not too worried about balance but it would be nice if I could avoid any glaring pitfalls or poor design choices. This is a rough first attempt. Any thoughts or input would be appreciated.

Each character chooses their primary ability modifiers for Magic, Skill and Combat. Each pillar has the following ability scores available by default, though some traditions may modify or add options. You may choose the same ability score for two or more pillars if you wish.

Magic: Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma
Skill: Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma
Combat: Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom

Each character has a Mana Pool equal to their level plus their lowest modifier that replenishes after a night's rest. This replaces Spell Points, Skill Leverage and Martial Focus. The normal methods for replenishing Skill Leverage and Martial Focus are not used, however any talents that would renew any of these resources can increase the Mana Pool.

All characters gain their choice of a bonus feat or talent every level. The talent can be a Magic, Skill or Combat talent.

A character must rank Magic, Skill and Combat in order from 1 to 3. These choices have the following effects:

Magic Rank 1 - High Caster

Caster Level advancement is 1 per level.
Take a Casting Tradition and gain 3 bonus Magic Talents.
Gain a bonus Magic Talent every even level. These can be traded in for Incanter Specialties.

Magic Rank 2 - Mid Caster

Caster Level advancement is 3/4 levels.
Take a Casting Tradition and gain 1 bonus Magic Talent.

Magic Rank 3 - Low Caster

Caster Level advancement is 1/2 levels.
May not use magic unless they take an illegal commoner Casting Tradition.


Skill Rank 1 - Virtuoso Operative

Base 6 skill points per level.
Take a Trade Tradition at Adroit rank plus one bonus Skill Talent.
Gain a bonus Skill Talent every even level. These can be traded in for Professional Specialties*.

Skill Rank 2 - Journeyman Operative

Base 4 skill points per level.
Take a Trade Tradition at Competent rank.

Skill Rank 3 - Trained Operative

Base 2 skill points per level.
Automatic class skills only.


Combat Rank 1 - Expert Practitioner

BAB advancement of 1 per level.
d10 hit die.
Take a Martial Tradition plus one Combat Talent.
Gain a bonus Combat Talent every even level. These can be traded in for Conscript Specialties.

Combat Rank 2 - Adept Practitioner

BAB advancement of 3/4 levels.
d8 hit die.
Take a Martial Tradition.

Combat Rank 3 - Proficient Practitioner

BAB advancement of 1/2 levels.
d6 hit die.
Proficiency with simple weapons and light armor.

[SangoProduction]

An interesting concept, and I think it would unironically work, especially with effectively doubled-tripled talents more than likely making up for lack of classes.

I actually wouldn't mind being part of a game that used this. Could see running this as well.

[Seerow]

I am curious how trading in for professional specialties works, given the Professional doesn't have a trade-in mechanic like Conscript/Incanter does. There's a * there, so I assume you took that into account and had a solution for it, but may have forgotten to include it in the post.

I'd also bump the skills per level by 2 across the board, but given you'll have both martial and skill spheres which can give you extra skills, it may not be necessary. I just feel like 4 is the minimum as a general rule, and getting the better trade tradition on the mid step of skills helps take some of the bite out of picking up a higher progression of the worst category of talent.

Otherwise, this does seem like it'd be fun. You get basically gish in a can where instead of class features you have a boatload of spheres to dabble in everything.

[SangoProduction]

Campaign concept: The now-nameless country is in an anarchic revolution. Not out of any high-minded ideals, but because the revolutionaries also got themselves killed at the same time.
Now without the benefit of high level organization, armed forces, or even the abilities found in their stable classes, the powers that be seek to impose their own will upon you and your neighbors. Will you defend your home and NameNotFound from would-be tyrants, petty kings, and yet more revolutionaries?

[Crake]

My main suggestion to this idea is: if youre removing classes, also remove levels. Let people level up each individual aspect of their character directly by spending xp, and abolish the class and level system entirely.

[cimbrog]

I am curious how trading in for professional specialties works, given the Professional doesn't have a trade-in mechanic like Conscript/Incanter does. There's a * there, so I assume you took that into account and had a solution for it, but may have forgotten to include it in the post.

I'd also bump the skills per level by 2 across the board, but given you'll have both martial and skill spheres which can give you extra skills, it may not be necessary. I just feel like 4 is the minimum as a general rule, and getting the better trade tradition on the mid step of skills helps take some of the bite out of picking up a higher progression of the worst category of talent.

Otherwise, this does seem like it'd be fun. You get basically gish in a can where instead of class features you have a boatload of spheres to dabble in everything.

Basically use the Incanter specialization chart. You can spend points for the follwing:
Bardic Performances (3 Points) - Same as Bard ability
Dual Identity (Ex) (2 points) - Same as Vigilante. May take social talents they qualify for instead of Skill Talents.
Favored Terrain (Ex) (1 point)
Inspiration (Ex) (1 point) - Same as Investigator ability
Wild Empathy (Ex) (1 point)
Trapfinding (1 point) - plus some of the level based improvements.
Conspiracist (3 points) - Gain a Mastermind Conspiracy along with the relevant abilities that the conspiracies trigger off of.
Foraging (2 points) - Gain the Courser's Foraging, Resourceful Foraging, Improved Foraging and Exceptional Foraging at the appropriate levels.
Sphere Specialization (2 points) - Gain a Professional methodical edge at 1st level, Savvy method at 4th level, Methodical progression at 8th level, innovative methods at 12th level and Methodical conclusion at 16th level. May take a second time to gain as secondary method as per Professional class.

I left the skill point totals as they are since there are so many other ways to get extra skills, like you mentioned. This could probably get a little more work so that Magic 1/Skill 3 can still have access to stuff like Arcana.

[cimbrog]

Campaign concept: The now-nameless country is in an anarchic revolution. Not out of any high-minded ideals, but because the revolutionaries also got themselves killed at the same time.
Now without the benefit of high level organization, armed forces, or even the abilities found in their stable classes, the powers that be seek to impose their own will upon you and your neighbors. Will you defend your home and NameNotFound from would-be tyrants, petty kings, and yet more revolutionaries?

The setting I'm designing this for is actually a steampunk airship pirate game with heavy otome isekai flavor. So noble families that are the descendants of gods and commoners who are forbidden from using any sort of magic and can basically be executed by a noble for looking at them funny. That's where the "illegal commoner magic tradition" stuff comes from. Non-noble characters have to take Magic tier 3 and can only use traditions like highly addictive drugs, extremely slow rituals or life sapping curses.

[cimbrog]

My main suggestion to this idea is: if youre removing classes, also remove levels. Let people level up each individual aspect of their character directly by spending xp, and abolish the class and level system entirely.

I was actually considering going E6 with this. I've experimented with no level d20 but haven't had much success but this might be a good fit for trying something like it again.

[Crake]

I was actually considering going E6 with this. I've experimented with no level d20 but haven't had much success but this might be a good fit for trying something like it again.

It can be tricky, trying to assign the correct xp costs to different things, and making sure theyre balanced against one another. Some costs definitely need to scale up, to discourage literal min maxing, but for example, your 20th skill rank in a skill should still probably cost less than a feat

[SangoProduction]

I actually find that the class/level structure gives a lot to the game.

Firstly, it gives constraints. Constraints are good, when they don't go too far. In BESM, for instance, you can just max out the Weapon ability (especially if you don't take alterations that reduce its power but make it more special), and now that you have, everyone else is basically forced to match you, or else: do effectively nothing with their Weapons, or have you one shot everything. There is no balanced cost to that. Constraints are useful.
For me, Spheres is just about the perfect mix between constraint that gives a good crunch and freedom to make what I want.
(Exponential Costs do solve that, with associated exponential rise in xp rates (case-in-point: gold and items), but you do have people complaining about doing addition with dice - applying exponents to the equation for every bloody aspect of their character isn't great.)

It reduces choice paralysis. Yes, I'm saying this as someone who advocates for Spheres. Spheres is actually brilliant, because despite their hundreds of talents, you don't actually have access to the choice to take all of them.
You're playing a mage? Well, you have a magic sphere talent. And your only choices are to unlock one of the few spheres. You get more choices of talents, only for the sphere that you already previously chose.

Versatility and Customization. While it may seem counterintuitive, the level-based system can actually increase the versatility and customization of a character. With a purely points-based game, you've just got piles of points "over here", "over here" and maybe a few over there - maybe a point or two in some background stuff. It does all start feeling incredibly same-y, and while you technically have a choice of "build," it doesn't really feel substantial. (Case-in-point: skills)

[Crake]

(Exponential Costs do solve that, with associated exponential rise in xp rates (case-in-point: gold and items), but you do have people complaining about doing addition with dice - applying exponents to the equation for every bloody aspect of their character isn't great.)

Well, you can always precalculate the costs as the DM, and give them to the players as a table, so they can see how much stuff will cost at given milestones. Additionally, another methtod to prevent over specialization would be to tie prerequisites to certain milestones, like, you cant take more points into bab until youve raised your primary ability score to a certain point, or your primary casting stat determines how many spheres you can learn.

The main issue would be that fine tuning the xp costs for various things would be be difficult with a limited playtest group, but thats just the issue you run into i guess.

[A.J.Gibson]

I like this build-your-own idea, but I think a tier 2/2/2 option should be allowed. I'd be tempted to give an additional 2 skill points per level as well.

[Seerow]

I'm actually wondering if what this needs is a 4th tier in each category to just say "No I'm really bad at this". Like having tier 3 casting be low casting, but then also have "Can't actually cast unless you take one of these really nasty traditions" attached to it feels bad. Similarly, being a trained operative who doesn't even get a trade tradition seems ridiculous.

But if you had skills where it was:
Tier 1: Virtuoso (8 skills/lvl plus bonus skill talents/specialization)
Tier 2: Journeyman (6 skills per level)
Tier 3: Trained (4 skills per level, weaker trade tradition))
Tier 4: Untrained (2 skills per level, no trade tradition, pick 2 skills as class skills)

Doing something similar with Magic is also pretty easy (with tier 4 being no caster level progression/talents). Martial is the toughest to manage (you can't really do a no BAB progression, can you?), though I guess bottom two tiers could still be low BAB and just take away the martial tradition and progression for tier 4. Maybe drop the hit die to a d4 (or give Expert a d12 and scale downward from there with the untrained variant at a d6)


But if you go this rate you can make Tier 1 be worth 3 points, Tier 2 worth 2, Tier 3 worth 1, Tier 4 worth 0. So you can go Tier1/2/3 as originally intended, but could also go 2/2/2, or you could go 3/3/0 if you really wanted to specialize in two areas and dump another.

[cimbrog]

I'm actually wondering if what this needs is a 4th tier in each category to just say "No I'm really bad at this". Like having tier 3 casting be low casting, but then also have "Can't actually cast unless you take one of these really nasty traditions" attached to it feels bad. Similarly, being a trained operative who doesn't even get a trade tradition seems ridiculous.

But if you had skills where it was:
Tier 1: Virtuoso (8 skills/lvl plus bonus skill talents/specialization)
Tier 2: Journeyman (6 skills per level)
Tier 3: Trained (4 skills per level, weaker trade tradition))
Tier 4: Untrained (2 skills per level, no trade tradition, pick 2 skills as class skills)

Doing something similar with Magic is also pretty easy (with tier 4 being no caster level progression/talents). Martial is the toughest to manage (you can't really do a no BAB progression, can you?), though I guess bottom two tiers could still be low BAB and just take away the martial tradition and progression for tier 4. Maybe drop the hit die to a d4 (or give Expert a d12 and scale downward from there with the untrained variant at a d6)


But if you go this rate you can make Tier 1 be worth 3 points, Tier 2 worth 2, Tier 3 worth 1, Tier 4 worth 0. So you can go Tier1/2/3 as originally intended, but could also go 2/2/2, or you could go 3/3/0 if you really wanted to specialize in two areas and dump another.

(The "Can't actually cast unless you take one of these really nasty traditions" is a setting specific thing, really, and probably should have not been included here. It should just be something like "you may still choose a casting tradition and use magic at this tier depending on the setting.")

I kind of see what you're getting at but everything in the various Spheres books sort of point this direction. Each book has 3 tiers of competency which is what I used for the naming conventions. Tier 3 is meant to be the "I'm bad at this" option where you don't even get a tradition. For example, if you go by the "Trade Traditions for non-Guile Classes" in Spheres of Guile, classes with 5+ skill points get Adroit traditions, classes with 4 skill points get Competent Traditions and anything less gets no tradition.

I think the suggestion from above to allow for a 2/2/2 selection would be the best way to go. Thinking about it, one way to allow for someone to effectively take 0 magic might be to add Spheres of Origin as a pseudo fourth pillar. I'd have to look into it, though.

[Seerow]

(The "Can't actually cast unless you take one of these really nasty traditions" is a setting specific thing, really, and probably should have not been included here. It should just be something like "you may still choose a casting tradition and use magic at this tier depending on the setting.")

I kind of see what you're getting at but everything in the various Spheres books sort of point this direction. Each book has 3 tiers of competency which is what I used for the naming conventions. Tier 3 is meant to be the "I'm bad at this" option where you don't even get a tradition. For example, if you go by the "Trade Traditions for non-Guile Classes" in Spheres of Guile, classes with 5+ skill points get Adroit traditions, classes with 4 skill points get Competent Traditions and anything less gets no tradition.

I think the suggestion from above to allow for a 2/2/2 selection would be the best way to go. Thinking about it, one way to allow for someone to effectively take 0 magic might be to add Spheres of Origin as a pseudo fourth pillar. I'd have to look into it, though.

But in spheres of guile even a class with 2+ int skills and no skill talents at all can get the regular trade tradition.

Basically right now you have the 3 tiers of training that represent having aptitude in that area. I'm just suggesting the 4th implicit option of "Untrained"

[cimbrog]

I've taken a few things mentioned here into consideration and am working on some additions and changes. A few thoughts.

One is that I forgot to mention how saves are determined. The following rules were what I had planned but allowing for a tier 2/2/2 selection really breaks it.

Magic Tier 1: Willpower is your good save.
Magic Tier 2: Willpower is your good save OR gain a bonus feat every 6 levels.
Combat Tier 1: Fortitude is your good save.
Combat Tier 2: Fortitude is your good save OR gain a bonus feat every 6 levels.
Skill Tier 1: Reflex is your good save.
Skill Tier 2: Reflex is your good save OR gain a bonus feat every 6 levels.

When the tier selection was 3/2/1 you could have one good save and bonus feats or two good saves. I'll need to come up with something for 2/2/2... or maybe it's okay?

Another random thought is the implications of the "everything is Mana" thing. I was concerned enough changing the "you have it or you don't" Martial Focus into a daily pool with everything else. However I'm torn about allowing the replenishment talents to still work. On one hand it is probably RIPE for abuse. On the other, a swordsman who knows a little of the Mana sphere to suck his opponent's combat prowess just sounds badass. As does a wizard who knows how to punch you in the face in just right way to get some magic back.

Edit: Rereading, Martial Focus has too many powers that require it to be "you have it or you don't". I'll have to seriously rethink how that works or just forget the Mana thing. I liked it though since it simplified having to keep track of all the different ability currencies.

[SangoProduction]

If you still want to merge the concepts of martial focus, and mana pools, you can go the other way, as presented here. https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?655786-Spell-points-variant-(Spheres-of-Power)
Never actually got to test it, as with that group, we got distracted with something else.

[cimbrog]

If you still want to merge the concepts of martial focus, and mana pools, you can go the other way, as presented here.
Never actually got to test it, as with that group, we got distracted with something else.

There are some good ideas in there. So keeping with the rule of 3 I came up with a few ideas.

Each character has either a pool of Mana, Grace or Aura that they choose at level 1 and cannot change later. Some settings may restrict which of these are available.

Mana

A character's maximum Mana Pool equals their level plus their Casting Modifier.
The Mana Pool replenishes after a night's rest.
Mana may be spent one to one for Spell Points or Skill Leverage.
Mana only counts as having Martial Focus when full and only counts as being expended when a point is spent while it is full. Martial Focus always costs 1 Mana.
Talents that replenish Spell Points, Skill Leverage or Martial Focus also replenish Mana.
"Normal" methods for regaining Skill Leverage and Martial Focus are not used.

Aura

A characters maximum Aura is equal to 1 + 1/5 of their current hit dice (rounded down).
A character begins each scene with their maximum Aura.
Mana may be spent one to one for Spell Points or Skill Leverage.
Gaining Martial Focus or Skill Leverage gives the character their maximum Aura.
The normal methods for gaining Martial Focus are used.
Talents that replenish Martial Focus, Skill Leverage and Spell Points are also all used.
Expending Martial Focus costs all of their remaining Aura.
Anything that would cause the character to lose Martial Focus empties their Aura Pool.
The character is considered to have Martial Focus as long as they have at least 1 Aura.

Grace

A characters maximum Grace is equal to 1 + 1/3 of their current hit dice (rounded down).
Grace may be spent one to one as Spell Points, Skill Leverage or Martial Focus. (Expending Martial Focus costs 1 Grace.)
As long as the character has at least 1 Grace they are considered to have Martial Focus.
Grace replenishes by 1 at the end of any round in which Grace was not spent.
Normal methods to replenish Skill Leverage and Martial Focus are not used.
Talents that replenish Spell Points, Skill Leverage or Martial Focus work as normal. (Gaining Martial Focus counts as gaining 1 Grace.)


Mana is basically as it was before but now kind of sucks for Combat Spheres. Aura is effectively the push & pull of Martial Focus that can be used for skills and magic. Grace is a recharge mechanic.

I'm considering renaming Grace to something else and adding a fourth option called Grace that involves a non-depleting pool that is only modified by your religious actions but that would be very setting dependent and probably not a good general option.

Edit: A note, the idea of Mana, Grace and Aura are a nod to common otome isekai tropes which are prevalent in the setting this is being designed for.

[Thealtruistorc]

This is a novel idea, and I've proposed similar XP purchase-based systems for organizing Spheres to folks at Drop Dead Studios. This sort of customization feels like a natural progression of Spheres' systems, and fleshing out such a system at some point is something I would like to try.

[cimbrog]

A thought on going without levels.

The 5e version of Spheres does this thing where some power comes from the number of talents known. Using that as inspiration, a way of doing this could go along these lines.

Begin with starting packages. Probably high/mid/low options to choose from that determine starting stuff.

Characters are awarded feats (that can be spent for talents) instead of XP as determined by the GM. Gaining a feat is kind of like gaining a half-level.
The type of talents they choose (if they choose them) awards the following:

All: Gain 3 skill points. Gain 0.5 Mana.
Magic Talent: Gain 1d3 hp.
Skill Talent: Gain 1d4 hp. Gain 3 extra skill points.
Combat Talent: gain 1d6 hp.
Non-Sphere Feat: gain 1d4 hp.

BAB = half the number of combat spheres and talents you know.
CL = half the number of magic spheres and talents you know.
Max skill ranks are your total number of guile spheres and talents.

I'm sure I'm missing stuff since this is completely off the cuff but I might be a good direction if anyone else wants to follow up on it.

[A.J.Gibson]

I think dispensing with levels really wouldn't get you anything, and would probably create problems.

In games with levels, abilities usually cost more as you acquire higher ranks in them, so there is motivation to diversify your abilities. Even games like M&M which are supposedly level-less put a power level cap on the abilities you would want to buy the most of. Without levels, you are encouraging hyper-specialization, unless the DM actively exploits the character's weaknesses. It could be made to work, but you don't really get anything out of it except even more flexibility, which you will have a ton of already.

You're also making life more difficult for the GM, as they try to come up with obstacles that will challenge a diverse rank of abilities while not killing anyone.

Finally...spending points on defense is boring and feels bad, but it's necessary. Levels make that less necessary.

[cimbrog]

So here's where I currently am:

Each character chooses their primary ability modifiers for Magic, Skill and Combat. Each pillar has the following ability scores available by default, though some traditions may modify or add options. You may choose the same ability score for two or more pillars if you wish.

Magic: Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma
Skill: Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma
Combat: Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom

Each character has either a pool of Mana, Grace or Aura that they choose at level 1 and cannot change later. Some settings may restrict which of these are available.

Mana

A character's maximum Mana Pool equals their level plus their Casting Modifier.
The Mana Pool replenishes after a night's rest.
Mana may be spent one to one for Spell Points or Skill Leverage.
Mana only counts as having Martial Focus when full and only counts as being expended when a point is spent while it is full. Martial Focus always costs 1 Mana.
Talents that replenish Spell Points, Skill Leverage or Martial Focus also replenish Mana.
"Normal" methods for regaining Skill Leverage and Martial Focus are not used.

Aura

A characters maximum Aura is equal to 1 + 1/5 of their current hit dice (rounded down).
A character begins each scene with their maximum Aura.
Mana may be spent one to one for Spell Points or Skill Leverage.
Gaining Martial Focus gives the character their maximum Aura.
The normal methods for gaining Martial Focus are used.
Talents that replenish Martial Focus, Skill Leverage and Spell Points are also all used.
Expending Martial Focus costs all of their remaining Aura.
Anything that would cause the character to lose Martial Focus empties their Aura Pool.
The character is considered to have Martial Focus as long as they have at least 1 Aura.

Grace

A characters maximum Grace is equal to 1 + 1/3 of their current hit dice (rounded down).
Grace may be spent one to one as Spell Points, Skill Leverage or Martial Focus. (Expending Martial Focus costs 1 Grace.)
As long as the character has at least 1 Grace they are considered to have Martial Focus.
Grace replenishes by 1 at the end of any round in which Grace was not spent.
Normal methods to replenish Skill Leverage and Martial Focus are not used.
Talents that replenish Spell Points, Skill Leverage or Martial Focus work as normal. (Gaining Martial Focus counts as gaining 1 Grace.)

All characters gain their choice of a bonus feat or talent every level. The talent can be a Magic, Skill or Combat talent.
A character must rank Magic, Skill and Combat in order from 1 to 3. Alternately, they may choose Rank 2 for all three pillars. These choices have the following effects:

Magic Rank 1 - High Caster

Caster Level advancement is 1 per level.
May take a Casting Tradition (depending on setting) and gain 3 bonus Magic Talents.
Gain a bonus Magic Talent every even level. These can be traded in for Incanter Specialties.
Willpower is your good save.

Magic Rank 2 - Mid Caster

Caster Level advancement is 3/4 levels.
May take a Casting Tradition (depending on setting) and gain 1 bonus Magic Talent.
Willpower is your good save OR Gain a bonus feat every third level.

Magic Rank 3 - Low Caster

Caster Level advancement is 1/2 levels.
Depending on setting may still take a tradition and use magic.


Skill Rank 1 - Virtuoso Operative

Gain 6 + operative ability bonus skill points per level.
Take a Trade Tradition at Adroit rank plus one bonus Skill Talent.
Gain a bonus Skill Talent every even level. These can be traded in for Guile Specialties*.
Reflex is your good save.

(* - Guile Specialties are specially made for this system, adapted from Professional Methods.)

Skill Rank 2 - Journeyman Operative

Gain 4 + operative ability bonus skill points per level.
Take a Trade Tradition at Competent rank.
Reflex is your good save OR Gain a bonus feat every third level.

Skill Rank 3 - Trained Operative

Gain 2 + operative ability bonus skill points per level.
Choose 2 class skills along with the automatic class skills.


Combat Rank 1 - Expert Practitioner

BAB advancement of 1 per level.
d10 hit die.
Take a Martial Tradition plus one Combat Talent.
Gain a bonus Combat Talent every even level. These can be traded in for Conscript Specialties.
Fortitude is your good save.

Combat Rank 2 - Adept Practitioner

BAB advancement of 3/4 levels.
d8 hit die.
Take a Martial Tradition.
Fortitude is your good save OR Gain a bonus feat every third level.

Combat Rank 3 - Proficient Practitioner

BAB advancement of 1/2 levels.
d6 hit die.
Proficiency with simple weapons and light armor.