Help with “1/2 Turns”

[RSP]

So I’ve been kicking around an idea to resolve Rounds in 3 seconds Turns, as opposed to every ~6 seconds of time. One round would still be 6 seconds, but you’d go through initiative order twice, resolving the first half of the round, then the second: so two Turns per Round for each character.

Three basic things I think this can accomplish:

- combat will be more dynamic and, hopefully, more engaging. The battlefield now changes faster, while keeping Rounds the same.

- make it more reasonable what happens during a Round, while providing greater flexibility to characters. A pet peeve of mine is the disparity between one character being able to move 30+ ft, attack twice, and then do a bonus action spell, while another character doing naught but focusing on attacking is limited to just the same two attacks, and “wasting” the time they still could have been moving and/or doing BAs. By resolving Actions one at a time, I think it’ll be more in tune with what I’d expect to be accomplished before others react.

- I actually think in making this work, it could help mitigate two “imbalances”: “ranged vs melee” combat, and “casters vs martials”. So “must have” spells, for instance, like AE or Shield, still function and provide good benefits, but essentially last half as long (as Turns are quicker). Other spells can be adjusted to fit the Round duration, like damaging spells that at the start of a Turn: they get adjusted to “at the start of the first Turn” to keep them in line with current capabilities and not double the damage they do.

So far, I’ve worked out the following:

- You get 2 Actions a Round, but resolve them one at a time and you don’t start your Turn with any movement. You can take your Action to Dash, Attack, Cast a Spell, or anything else you normally can do. However:

- If you Dash in the first Turn in a Round, you can carry over up to 1/2 your Speed to your second Turn: so if you Dash with your first Turn in the Round, but only use 20’ out of 30’ available, you can then use your second Turn in that Round to do another Action, while still having the 10’ of Movement left over. Extra Movement does not carry over Round to Round though (same as in PHB rules).

- if you make a ranged weapon attack, you get one attack per Round, same as it is now. Extra Attack grants an attack every Turn. However, there is no additional benefit to Fighters getting additional attacks at 11 or 20, for ranged weapon attacks. Steady Aim is available to any character as an Action. Rogues can still use it as a BA, but as part of Cunning Action at level 2.

- if you make a melee weapon attack, you can attack once a Turn. EA grants an extra attack every Turn. Fighters get one extra melee weapon attack every Turn at 11, and at 20, they get a 4th melee weapon attack every other round. So if just standing toe to toe with an enemy, a level 20 Fighter is a blur of attacks.

- if you Cast a Spell and cast a 1 Action spell, the casting takes that Turn to complete, and is resolved (the spell goes off) either right before the start of your next Turn or at any point during the next Turn, (no Action required on the next Turn). If you take damage during the start of casting through before the spell effect goes off, make a Conc check or the spell fails. This doesn’t use the caster’s Concentration (they can still maintain a Concentration spell while casting another non-Concentration spell), it just uses the same mechanic to not drop the spell.

- you get a BA once a Round (not once a Turn).

- you cannot cast a BA spell while already doing the casting for another spell: so you can’t start casting a spell, then cast a BA before the 1 Action spell resolves. BA casting rule is still in place (so only a Cantrip if you cast a BA spell that Turn). BA spells are cast and take effect when the BA is used.

- Sneak Attack is 1x/Turn. This lets the melee Rogue generally get an additional SA attack in up to 2x/Round, while ranged Rogues are operating the same as they are now, but with easily achieved Advantage due to Steady Aim as either an Action or BA.

- when reading PHB rules that refer to the start of a character’s Turn for timing in a Round (so like making a Death Save, for example) is timing of that is now at the start of their first Turn in a Round. Likewise, anything referencing making a Save or an effect ticking at the end of a Turn, is now resolved at the end of the character’s second Turn in a Round.

There’s definitely a bit more intricacy to this, but I hope it’s also more engaging.

Spellcasters take a nerf, particularly with AoEs, as they commit to the spell, but the battlefield set up may change by the time they chose their targets. I’m fine with this as it changes the value of spells: you’ll still get use out of AoEs, but they’re less “must have”, while increasing the effectiveness of some other spells. Shield and AE, for instance, are still good, but only protect about half as long. Spells like Fear are still as effective once in play (timing of saves is still 1x/Round).

Some Feats/Abilities will gain a little boost, like Defensive Dualist or Savage Attacker, which now “recharge” 1x/Turn (so 2x/Round max instead of 1x/Round max as it is now). Not sure what other Feats or abilities might get this bump, but can deal with timing on an individual basis in discussion with a Player who is interested in such taking a Feat or will gain an ability. Default assumption, though is unless specifically mentioned/discussed, the timing stays the same as it is in a 6 second Round.

A little more on what I’m trying to change: I dislike the ambiguity in how long certain Actions take: for instance, a Caster can take the time to move 30’, then start casting a spell, finish the casting, then potentially move again, or even cast another spell. Yet other times, casting the same spell fills up the full ~6 seconds. This standardizes the timing of the actions more. Plus, it’s never made much sense to me that all that ~6 takes place before a bunch of other characters can do anything, yet what those characters do happens at the same time.

If I see a caster start a spell that takes a few seconds to finish, why can’t I try to run for cover? Why are characters stuck just standing there watching as an enemy approaches and does something threatening?

Overall, I think I like the balance in working Turns this way. It’s probably not going to be perfect by any measure, but it has some interesting potential I’d like to test out. I’m hoping to get some play test on this, which will be done in the spirit of seeing what we can improve on, for the game as a whole. I’m assuming over one-shots, so as not to set anything in stone at this point.

Notes about playstyle for table:

- I play Adv and Disadv can stack with themselves, as well as negate instances of the opposite on a 1:1 basis. So if getting Advantage, but getting two effects of Disadvantage, then the roll occurs with 1 Disadv. Likewise, if two things grant Advantage, then the roll occurs with 3 d20s. Elven Accuracy just adds a d20 to the roll when Adv is present (doesn’t count as 2 Advs, but is just “if the end result after weighing Adv vs Disadv is at least one Adv, then add an extra d20 to the roll).

- my table plays on a VTT, which mitigates some of the bookkeeping issues, imo. Clicking an effect for Conc while the caster is casting between turns, for instance, isn’t difficult. Nor is running through initiative order twice before advancing to the next Round.

But I’d like to hear any advice anyone has on what else to expect/adjust before playtesting this.

What are your thoughts on this? What pitfalls do you see occurring? Any other abilities that would need adjusting (I’m sure there are)?

Thanks in advance for suggestions!

(Updating as I consider feedback, thanks!)

[MoiMagnus]

The first pitfall is that you're making martial static.
If peoples can trade movements for attacks (or other productive actions), they'll do it, and they'll build for it.
The expectation will become to never ever move, and moving will be seen as player as a "cost" since that means they miss an opportunity to attack.

That's why IMO peoples should be forced to have movement that can't be converted into anything else.

The second pitfall might not apply to your table, but at mine it would definitely slow down significantly the play.
Each time you change of peoples "currently playing", you lose some time.
Each time the situation change on the board, peoples have to rethink about what their planned to do, so they slow down.



If I see a caster start a spell that takes a few seconds to finish, why can’t I run for cover? Why are characters stuck just standing there watching as an enemy approaches and does something threatening?

The way we handle it in our non-D&D homebrew is:
(1) Declarations of intention for the "slow" actions. This include spellcasting and group tactics (when you have troops with you). They will be resolved last.
(2) Declaration of intention for the "normal actions" and movements.
=> In practice, step (1) and (2) are merged and players have the right to "change their mind" when one of the "slow" actions would have been relevant for their choice.
(3) Resolution of reactions, which include a basic reaction allowing to move away from danger, potentially cancelling your planned action (if incompatible).
(4) Resolution of normal actions and movements.
(5) Resolution of slow actions (including spellcasting and troop actions).

[RSP]

The first pitfall is that you're making martial static.
If peoples can trade movements for attacks (or other productive actions), they'll do it, and they'll build for it.
The expectation will become to never ever move, and moving will be seen as player as a "cost" since that means they miss an opportunity to attack.

That's why IMO peoples should be forced to have movement that can't be converted into anything else.

Could, but that’s what I see a lot of now: ranged is the optimal way to play. And that’s fine. In this, melee gets more attacks for that reason. A non-EA ranged attack is only every other round. A non-EA melee attack is every round.

Any one who wants to benefit from ranged still can, but this incentivizes being in melee, which may take a set up turn (which happens with full 5e 6 second turns as well), but now you get to benefit from being in melee.

The hope is the Disadvantage to ranged attacks when Dashing further mitigates the loss of the 1st round attack.

Also note: the non-EA ranged attack is only every other turn, so they are then “forced” to do something else.

[MoiMagnus]

Could, but that’s what I see a lot of now: ranged is the optimal way to play. And that’s fine. In this, melee gets more attacks for that reason. A non-EA ranged attack is only every other round. A non-EA melee attack is every round.

Any one who wants to benefit from ranged still can, but this incentivizes being in melee, which may take a set up turn (which happens with full 5e 6 second turns as well), but now you get to benefit from being in melee.

The hope is the Disadvantage to ranged attacks when Dashing further mitigates the loss of the 1st round attack.

Also note: the non-EA ranged attack is only every other turn, so they are then “forced” to do something else.

I've just also realised another big set of consequence:
(1) You removed the "attacking at the middle of a movement" of 5e. It annoys me because I don't like peoples attacking once ever 30ft of movements like they are robots who can't have flexibility of timing. But in term of balance, it's probably in the good direction since it nerfs ranged attackers.
(2) You are significantly nerfing the first-strike-advantage, to the point where acting first will often be a disadvantage for melee characters: if you engage the melee yourself, you need to move to you only get one attack but the enemy can attack you twice, on the other hand if the enemy was playing first and engaging you they get one attack while you get two of them.

[RSP]

I've just also realised another big set of consequence:
(1) You removed the "attacking at the middle of a movement" of 5e. It annoys me because I don't like peoples attacking once ever 30ft of movements like they are robots who can't have flexibility of timing. But in term of balance, it's probably in the good direction since it nerfs ranged attackers.

Indeed it does. Not horribly worried about it, but was considering adding something like the old 5’ step, if attacking, but not quite there yet (want a better sense of how it works without adding that first).

As you said, it’s more of an impact on ranged attacking or casters than melee, so I’m not against it at this point.



(2) You are significantly nerfing the first-strike-advantage, to the point where acting first will often be a disadvantage for melee characters: if you engage the melee yourself, you need to move to you only get one attack but the enemy can attack you twice, on the other hand if the enemy was playing first and engaging you they get one attack while you get two of them.

Not sure I’d necessarily agree. At least in my experience, this is already a factor for melee. Combat doesn’t necessarily start with everyone within 30’ of each other, as is; so there’s plenty of times when characters have to spend their first turn moving and forego attacking.

The benefit here is, if that occurs, Character A, going first, gets to their second Turn faster. So, if needing to cover 50’ to the enemy, Character A moves 30’ on their turn. Character B then moves 20’ to engage with Character A. Now it’s Character A’s Turn and they can melee attack.

In current ~6 second format, Character A has to move and Dash on their Turn to engage with Character B, still not doing anything with their “first strike”. Character B now gets a full round of attacks on Character A, before Character A attacks.

In the ~3 second Turn format, if engaging in Round 1, Character B only gets half their attacks on Character A before Character A goes.

Keep in mind, characters with BA movement options can still use them in round 1, so those (like Cunning Action) may get a boost in this format.

Yes, if combat starts with everyone within 30’-25’(for Small PCs), this may be “worse” for the character going first; however, though it does happen organically, my experience is this situation tends towards Surprise, with one side aware of the other, letting them close the distance to them intentionally.

I also thought about having the Dash Action provide Disadvantage against all incoming attacks, not just ranged, but opted against that as it then impacts OAs, which I didn’t think was good. Plus, BA movement then turns into free Dodge as well, against what I was looking for.


Appreciate the critiques!

[Chronos]

If there's something that you can only do every other turn, then you've got the extra bookkeeping of keeping track what you did last turn.

Also, sometimes you want to move before your action, sometimes you want to move after it, and sometimes you want to do a mix (like moving forward 15' to get in range to do something, doing it, and then moving back). You've removed that flexibility.

[KorvinStarmast]

Also, sometimes you want to move before your action, sometimes you want to move after it, and sometimes you want to do a mix (like moving forward 15' to get in range to do something, doing it, and then moving back). You've removed that flexibility. Another blow to martials.

The first pitfall is that you're making martial static. And they hardly need more constraints.

[titi]

You're thinking about movement the wrong way.

Walk around while waving your arms, then stand still while waving your arms : standing still or moving did not affect your arms' speed

[RSP]

If there's something that you can only do every other turn, then you've got the extra bookkeeping of keeping track what you did last turn.

Also, sometimes you want to move before your action, sometimes you want to move after it, and sometimes you want to do a mix (like moving forward 15' to get in range to do something, doing it, and then moving back). You've removed that flexibility.

I’m fine with the extra bookkeeping at this point. It’s definitely something I’m aware of, but not sure how much it’ll be an issue. If it’s a big deal, this may not be worth it.

As for the moving before and after taking an Action, that’s exactly what I’m trying to get rid of. It makes zero sense to me, that all that occurs, before anyone else is able to do anything.

Breaking up that three-pronged ~6 second Turn is very much intentional. Though, after thinking on these posts, I may add in something to the effect of “you can trade an Attack for 10’ of movement” or some such for times when you’d rather move than take an Extra Attack after attacking (like the first attack downed the only enemy in range). That might be something added after seeing the base play test. Will think on it some more


You're thinking about movement the wrong way.

Walk around while waving your arms, then stand still while waving your arms : standing still or moving did not affect your arms' speed

Disagree: if I need to move 30’ to be able to attack, then I am not attacking while moving, as you suggest, but, indeed, taking the full time to move, then the full time to attack.

If you’re suggesting that ranged attacks can occur while moving, well I’m fine “nerfing” that benefit of ranged attacks (as I’d prefer not having the immersion effect of it being equally difficult to shot a bow standing still, as it is moving). Likewise with Spellcasting.

If melee attacks are currently the least favorable option (imo it is) in part due to it requires movement to be in position, then I’m fine with taking that aspect away from casting and ranged to help balance the three options.


Also: I’ll edit this into the OP, but I play Adv and Disadv can stack with themselves, as well as negate instances of the opposite on a 1-1 basis. So if getting Advantage, but doing two things that cause Disadvantage, then the roll occurs with 1 instance of Disadv. Likewise, if two things grant Advantage, then the roll occurs with 3 d20s.

[Frogreaver]

Does a caster have to commit to their target when starting to cast the spell or only when the spell casting is complete?

I might do ranged slightly differently. New action: Aim. Change range attacks to have a -5 penalty unless taking the aim action. Fiddle with the numbers till it feels right.

[titi]

Disagree: if I need to move 30’ to be able to attack, then I am not attacking while moving, as you suggest, but, indeed, taking the full time to move, then the full time to attack.

I fully disagree. You can 100% arm your swing while moving towards your target. There is nothing preventing you from moving your arms while you move your legs.

If you want to tell your players they can't move and shoot in the same turn, you don't need to rework how a round functions

[RSP]

Does a caster have to commit to their target when starting to cast the spell or only when the spell casting is complete?

I might do ranged slightly differently. New action: Aim. Change range attacks to have a -5 penalty unless taking the aim action. Fiddle with the numbers till it feels right.

Targeting is determined when the spell is cast and takes effect, not when deciding to cast a spell.

Appreciate the suggestion on Aim. Will think on it. Thanks.


I fully disagree. You can 100% arm your swing while moving towards your target. There is nothing preventing you from moving your arms while you move your legs.

If you want to tell your players they can't move and shoot in the same turn, you don't need to rework how a round functions

You can, indeed, try to anticipate and plan your attacks for when you arrive at your target and are within reach of a melee attack.

However, no, you cannot make a melee Attack in 5e until you are within Reach of your target. The movement to get within Reach must occur before the Attack Action, in that case.

Not sure what part of this you’re disagreeing with.

[Psyren]

On hitting moving targets - just because you haven't left your square doesn't mean you're not moving. Dex, armor, unarmored defense and shields are part of your AC for exactly this reason; characters in combat are in constant motion, and the effects of that are abstracted into your AC, your saving throws (Dex especially) and even your HP. That includes the "diving for cover" example above, which is abstracted into things like Evasion and Uncanny Dodge.

As far as hitting casters when they cast a spell and potentially breaking their concentration, isn't that what Mage Slayer is for? Not all spells have concentration and I think that's okay.

[Frogreaver]

It just struck me that you also need to classify monster abilities into this framework. That may not be trivial.

[JackPhoenix]

- combat will be more dynamic and, hopefully, more engaging. The battlefield now changes faster, Turns happen “more often” while keeping what can be done during ~6 seconds about the same.

It will be the exact opposite. There's an incentive to move as little as possible, and just stand next to the enemy and attack. Turns may be a little shorter, but lack of things to do on your turn does not exactly help engagement. Also, combats will take a lot more table time, not only will there be more turns in every round, but DRP will be lower because melee will have to waste turns moving instead of attacking, and ranged and spellcasting is just screwed.


- You get 1 Action on your Turn, and don’t start your Turn with any movement. You can take your Action to Dash, Attack, Cast a Spell, or anything else you normally can do. However:

- if you Dash, ranged attacks made against you have Disadvantage until the start of your next Turn. It’s harder to hit a moving target rather than a stationary one, and I think this helps mitigate the “penalty” of melee characters “wasting” a turn getting into position to fight. (I may change this Disadv to a flat -2 or -4, but starting with Disadvantage for now.)

I hope nobody likes to play a skirmisher, because that's gone. Disengage no longer exists, not that it matters, because nobody will be moving anyway. Mobile feat? Fancy Footwork? Various other ways to avoid provoking OA? Useless.


- if you make a ranged attack, you get one attack every other Turn. Extra Attack grants an attack every Turn. Fighters get to add an every other Turn EA at 11 for ranged attacks, and get two ranged attacks every Turn at 20.

This goes so far the other way it's not even funny. I hope nobody likes to play a ranged character, either. Also, having a different number of attacks each turn is a stupid idea.


- if you Cast a Spell and cast a 1 Action spell, the casting is completed right before the start of your next Turn. If you take damage during this time, make a Conc check or the spell fails.

Touch spells are completely unusable now. You either get hit and lose the spell, or the target moves out of your reach and you lose the spell. Readied spells are either not a thing anymore, or get around the restrictions, so everyone will be doing that instead. Also, concentration spells no longer work, as you won't be able to cast anything else without breaking concentration. Yay. No idea how Bladesinger's Extra Attack work.
Storm sorcerers are the best casters now, though. Storm Sorcery allows them to move 10' before casting a spell, which means they are immune to melee attacks (as melee attackers need to waste their turn to reach the sorcerer).

Any movement that doesn't require your action is broken. You don't have to be faster than your enemy, all you have to do is to end the turn just beyond their reach. Congratulations, you're now immune to melee. Everyone should get a mount for movement that doesn't waste their actions.
PAM/Sentinel/reach combo is a mixed bag. You can't stop the enemy from moving and attack him on your turn, but you can stop them from moving and just take a step back. They won't be able to close the distance and attack you.
Charger's not a waste of a feat now. Yay?
Being Prone really sucks. You can either attack at disadvantage, or waste your entire turn getting up, probably only to be knocked prone again.
Winning initiative is more important than ever. Whoever's first gets free attacks, and spellcasters can actually finish their spells. Closing the distance is for suckers.
Speaking of closing the distance: Don't move towards your enemy, ever. You're better off shooting and switching to melee weapon when they reach you. Even attack at disadvantage every 2nd turn is better than wasting your turn with movement only to be hit to the face. Sucks to be Str-based.
I hope you didn't want to play melee Assassin. Assassinate was apparently not bad enough, so you'll have a chance to waste your 1st turn (and surprise) on movement.
Don't bother preparing ambushes if you're melee combatant. Any advantage you get from surprise will be wasted on moving to the target, anyway.
Any ability that lasts until the end of your next turn, with the assumption you'll be able to take an advantage of it, especially if it's a ranged ability? Heh.

And that's not mentioning the absolute havoc this crap causes with monsters instead of players. Cats can't pounce anymore, nothing can charge, and how the hell does anything with multiattack interact with these rules?

[RSP]

On hitting moving targets - just because you haven't left your square doesn't mean you're not moving. Dex, armor, unarmored defense and shields are part of your AC for exactly this reason; characters in combat are in constant motion, and the effects of that are abstracted into your AC, your saving throws (Dex especially) and even your HP. That includes the "diving for cover" example above, which is abstracted into things like Evasion and Uncanny Dodge.

Yes and no. I agree combatants are constantly moving, however, hitting someone from range that is generally standing in the same 5’ square, is less difficult than hitting someone from range who is running over a longer distance.

Also, the Disadvantage to hit someone with ranged weapons while they Dash is also to mitigate the benefit of being a ranged attacker. I want to break up the resolution of the ~6 seconds, not make ranged combat a better option than it already it.



As far as hitting casters when they cast a spell and potentially breaking their concentration, isn't that what Mage Slayer is for? Not all spells have concentration and I think that's okay.

This would be different completely than MS. Casters would need to maintain Conc on their casting, as it occurs over the Round between their Turn casting and the start of their next Turn when the cast spell takes effect.

I’ll note: this is to maintain their casting of the current spell only, it doesn’t count as a new instance of maintaining Concentration for the purposes of previously cast spells.

That is, casting any 1 Action spell, takes your Turn and resolves right before the start of your next Turn, but does not affect the 1 Conc spell at a time rule.

In the instance of a caster already having a Conc spell up, they could cast a different spell while maintaining the original (assuming the new spell isn’t also Concentration).

I haven’t decided if taking damage then would result in separate Concentration checks (one for previous Conc spell and one for casting), or in one check that impacts both. It’s not horribly important to distinguish between the two and may just leave it up to the player how they want it resolved.


It just struck me that you also need to classify monster abilities into this framework. That may not be trivial.

Yup. Affects monsters abilities as well, but a bit easier in my mind as you’re just halving what they can do with Multiattack. Similar to PCs, they either move or choose one of their Actions.

It does get a little more complicated with stuff like breath weapons recharging, potentially occurring more often if rolling every Turn, but can just roll every other Turn. Regeneration, etc., is likewise, just have it occur on odd number Rounds.

Legendary Actions can either be done every other Round, or just split up the actions between two rounds with 1 LA occurring first round, 2 the following round, or whatever.

[SpanielBear]

“Just” doing things every other round is non-trivial, especially for a Dm who will almost certainly have multiple monsters. For combat simplicity they will also be incentivised to use as basic beatstick monsters as possible, maybe one with any abilities that recharge or have other unforeseen interactions. This does not seem like it will help lead to more interesting encounters.

Movement independent of action is the single best thing for creating dynamic combat environments, in my experience. Is it an abstraction? Of course. But the whole game is an abstraction, and some abstraction is inescapable as long as you’re trying to translate an imagined reality into a system bound by rules and dice. I’m sympathetic if the system as it stands feels too abstract for your tastes, but I respectfully don’t think your proposal is an effective solution, given the above objections as well.

[RSP]

It will be the exact opposite. There's an incentive to move as little as possible, and just stand next to the enemy and attack. Turns may be a little shorter, but lack of things to do on your turn does not exactly help engagement. Also, combats will take a lot more table time, not only will there be more turns in every round, but DRP will be lower because melee will have to waste turns moving instead of attacking, and ranged and spellcasting is just screwed.

Not sure the reasoning on this. Melee gets more out of it, but requires getting into weapon reach. Currently, melee still requires getting into reach range, but gets nothing for it.

There aren’t more Turns per Round, either, I’m not sure why you think there are. You also don’t have a lack of options, just a limit of what you can do in one Turn.

Won’t lower DPR as you already need to move to get into range. That’s not new to this change, and happens all the time in games I play. If the norm for other tables is “every combatant is always within 25’ of every other combatant”, then yes, I guess this would be a big change for them.

But I haven’t seen that. Melee characters already have incentive to move as little as possible in 5e. You’re not going to attack one enemy, then move away from them and incur an OA just to move to the next enemy and attack them. You’re going to stay in the spot you’re in to continue whacking the enemy until they’re down.

Rarely, if ever, does anyone hop around like you suggest.



I hope nobody likes to play a skirmisher, because that's gone. Disengage no longer exists, not that it matters, because nobody will be moving anyway. Mobile feat? Fancy Footwork? Various other ways to avoid provoking OA? Useless.

On the contrary, skirmishes would be fine. A Rogue can still BA Disengage if they want. I may fiddle around more with working in a more usable Disengage action when moving; it just rarely comes up so hadn’t focused on it.

I’ll look over some of the “avoiding OA” but I’m not sure why you think that’s useless: you’d still get to avoid OA. For Mobile and FF, you just make it extend the full 6 seconds, which in this would be until the end of the characters next Turn.

Which I’m fine with: the point being to resolve by shorter segments of time. I don’t like that one character can move 30’-effectively attack another creature (multiple times even)-then move another 30’, without the other creature doing anything, and then the other creature then gets 6 seconds of actions while now the original creature “stands still”. And somehow, though each set of 6 second actions occur in completely different time periods of in game action, they also some how occur over the same exact 6 second span.



This goes so far the other way it's not even funny. I hope nobody likes to play a ranged character, either. Also, having a different number of attacks each turn is a stupid idea.

Opinion noted. Ranged is still just as effective as current play (minus the new movement rule) - you’re still getting the same amount of attacks over ~6 seconds of game world time.

Melee intentionally got a slight bump due to that currently being a suboptimal play style.



Touch spells are completely unusable now. You either get hit and lose the spell, or the target moves out of your reach and you lose the spell. Readied spells are either not a thing anymore, or get around the restrictions, so everyone will be doing that instead. Also, concentration spells no longer work, as you won't be able to cast anything else without breaking concentration. Yay. No idea how Bladesinger's Extra Attack work.
Storm sorcerers are the best casters now, though. Storm Sorcery allows them to move 10' before casting a spell, which means they are immune to melee attacks (as melee attackers need to waste their turn to reach the sorcerer).

Thought of keeping Cantrips as resolving the same Turn as cast, but I still like the nerf to casters as originally presented, that’s intentional.

Good point on the Touch spells: I had toyed with letting the caster choose if the spell resolves right before the start of their next Turn or during their next Turn. Might go back to that, which would better capture the current 6 second Turn.

But either way, the casting of a non-Conc spell doesn’t take the Conc mechanic.



Any movement that doesn't require your action is broken. You don't have to be faster than your enemy, all you have to do is to end the turn just beyond their reach. Congratulations, you're now immune to melee.

Not really. Take a Rogue with CA as an example. Turn 1 they use Dash to move up to engage in melee. Enemy then goes, getting mild their Multiattack Attacks (at least 1 in melee). Then the Rogue goes and attacks (1 attack). Then the Rogue uses their BA to Dash with Cunning Action. Enemy gets 1 attack as a OA. Then Enemy uses Dash to reengage the Rogue. Then the Rogue Attacks (1 attack), but can’t BA again because it’s every other Turn. So the Enemy goes again and Attacks.

The Rogue still benefits from the BA just every 6 seconds. Not sure why you suggest skirmishing is unplayable, and skirmishing is broken my good, but I don’t see either.



Everyone should get a mount for movement that doesn't waste their actions.

Mounts will need to be figured out. Hadn’t thought of it so thanks for the suggestion. However, mount rules already require home brew to actually work, so I’m not horrible swayed away from these changes because of them. Plus, mounts may have seen use in combat maybe twice since 2015 at my tables, so it wasn’t high on my list of things to look at. Maybe just make them every other turn as well so they keep the same combat effectiveness as current. I’ll have to think about it though.



PAM/Sentinel/reach combo is a mixed bag. You can't stop the enemy from moving and attack him on your turn, but you can stop them from moving and just take a step back. They won't be able to close the distance and attack you.

Again, I think a lot of this can be resolved by keeping the 6 second turn duration and making certain effects last until the next Turn.



Charger's not a waste of a feat now. Yay?

Getting more use out of “waste” abilities is very much a hope of this change, as is potentially making “must have because always optimal” abilities more balanced (Shield for instance).



Being Prone really sucks. You can either attack at disadvantage, or waste your entire turn getting up, probably only to be knocked prone again.

Maybe. As suggested above, I may institute a way to exchange an attack for movement. As is though, Prone isn’t as debilitating as it should be for attackers as you just stand up freely anyway.

Will think on it though.



Winning initiative is more important than ever. Whoever's first gets free attacks, and spellcasters can actually finish their spells. Closing the distance is for suckers.
Speaking of closing the distance: Don't move towards your enemy, ever. You're better off shooting and switching to melee weapon when they reach you. Even attack at disadvantage every 2nd turn is better than wasting your turn with movement only to be hit to the face. Sucks to be Str-based.

Not really. Again, if all your combats always operate with everyone within 25’ of each other at all times, sure. But that’s not as I’ve experienced it. Enemies sometimes go first and may close the distance as well. Spellcasters casting can still be hit from range.

Not sure why you think Spellcasters going first isn’t already a big advantage: it’s pretty much mentioned in every optimizers guide (Alert and Gift of Alacracy come to mind).



I hope you didn't want to play melee Assassin. Assassinate was apparently not bad enough, so you'll have a chance to waste your 1st turn (and surprise) on movement.

I’m not sure the Assassin being a bad option is unique to this change, but again, just make the duration to benefit from their abilities stay at 6 seconds, or in this case two Rounds. I think that actually benefits the subclass.



Don't bother preparing ambushes if you're melee combatant.

Surprise still works. Not sure why it wouldn’t.



And that's not mentioning the absolute havoc this crap causes with monsters instead of players. Cats can't pounce anymore, nothing can charge, and how the hell does anything with multiattack interact with these rules?

Multiattack gets split between two rounds, just like EA. Not overly worried about specific monster abilities as a) I’m planning on being the DM so will know what monsters will need adjustments beforehand and b) everything stays within the same 6 seconds of current rules, so it’s easy enough to adjust.

[titi]

The big problem is that you're doubling the number of turns, but the number of decisions per turn did not get divided by 2 (because now you need to think about wether you move or not), so you're increasing the length of combat. Add the fact that you're asking everyone to keep track of more things (BA, EA, spells being cast and targets of the spells, what creature is protected from ranged attacks or not), and you are risking making combat feel like a chore.

[Frogreaver]

I foresee casters being even more focused on ac and con saves in this. I also think players will tend toward any caster that has strong no friendly fire spells. Clerics for Spirit Guardians. Druids for conjure animals. Evokers for fireball. Sorcerers for careful spell meta magic and control spells like hypnotic pattern or fear.

I suppose team monster at least gets 1/2 a round before an encounter ending spell goes off. That feels better, but most likely itÂ’s melee martials taking the brunt of the damage and effects in their extra offensive turn.

Then thereÂ’s healing magic, which is going to feel terrible waiting a whole turn to go off and also most often benefits melee martials.

I think ranged combat is being needed too much, especially since eldritch blast and other cantrips exist and may cause as much damage as bows in this setup?

[clash]

I think you're going backwards with this. Your problem is with turns as an abstraction. This in my opinion is not solved by creating more turns but by getting rid of turns entirely. I have tried out two ways of doing this myself.

1) Everything happens simultaneously. Movement is fluid ie your position for the purpose of being targeted is anywhere you have been in the round. Damage and effects all apply at the end of the round so yes two creatures can each mutually kill each other. This takes some ironing and good communication to make work but it is fast and chaotic and everything combat should be.

2) Get rid of initiative and have everything take a certain amount of ticks on the clock. Everyone declares their actions and you sort the various actions on the time track. This let's you do things like make melee weapons faster to execute than ranged attacks or spells. Same idea but less finagling.

Just a quick example:
Movement: 1 tick per half movement
Melee attack: 3 ticks
Ranged attack: 5 ticks
Casting a spell: 6 ticks
Dodge action: 1 tick
Any bonus action: 2 ticks

Break any ties on the track with dexterity score.

[sithlordnergal]

Sooo, people have already talked about some pitfalls, but I wanna look at your three goals with these changes:



- combat will be more dynamic and, hopefully, more engaging. The battlefield now changes faster, Turns happen “more often” while keeping what can be done during ~6 seconds about the same.


So...I think you partially succeeded. The battlefield will change faster, and turns will happen more often. However, I don't think it'll be more dynamic or engaging. On the dynamic side, you penalize moving so much that creatures will not move unless they are trying to avoid some big AoE, or a Touch spell. As it currently stands, players have little reason to move. In this system, they are actively penalized for doing so and will move as little as possible.

As for engagement, I don't think it'll be as engaging as you think. Turns will happen more often, but because things can change a lot really quickly, and because of the tactical decisions to be made with moving/attacking/spell casting/ect., turns will take longer. This is especially true if anyone has minions. Be they from class features, like a Creation Bard or Beastmaster Range, to spells, like Find Familiar or Summon X.




- make it more reasonable what happens during a Round and give greater flexibility to what you can do in ~6 seconds. A pet peeve of mine is the disparity between one character being able to move 30+ ft, attack twice, and then do a bonus action spell, while another character doing naught but focusing on attacking is limited to just the same two attacks, and “wasting” the time they still could have been moving and/or doing BAs. By resolving ~3 seconds of combat at a time, I think it’ll be more in tune with what I’d expect to be accomplished before others react.


Ehhh, I think that's just how you picture it. Most characters can do more than just attack twice, and unless there's something special happening they can all move at least 30 feet. Usually, if you have a character that can move more than 30 feet, make two attacks, and cast a Bonus Action spell, they're doing those things because of feats and special class abilities. So its less "The guy who just moves and makes two attacks is wasting time" and more "This one person received specialized training that lets them do all of this".

Also, while its not in your goals, I noticed you mentioned that everyone else is sort of just standing and doing nothing when its not their turn. Teeechnically that's not what happens. All of the turns happen at the same time, in the same 6 seconds. Which is why you can't instantly react to someone casting a fireball to take cover before it goes off. You're busy making two or more attacks and moving at the same time that fireball is going off.




- I actually think in making this work, it could help mitigate two “imbalances”: “ranged vs melee” combat, and “casters vs martials”.


So, with your method you end up nerfing ranged and skerkish characters to the point where they are no longer usable. A core part of the Monk is being able to get into and out of melee combat with ease due to their high mobility. The same holds true for Rogues, and somewhat for Rangers. That mobility doesn't mean **** now. Ranged characters are also nerfed far too hard. Only being able to attack every other round is far too large of a penalty. Just let them make one attack every turn, but don't increase their number of attacks on each subsequent round unless they have Extra Attack. That encourages melee without removing range as an option, or making it a trap.

Meanwhile, you haven't really made any significant changes to Casters. You've nerfed AoEs and Touch spells, sure. But AoEs and Touch spells aren't why Casters are so much stronger than Martials. You've successfully managed to nerf spells that only have a 20ft area or less, but outside of Fireball, Shatter, and Hypnotic Pattern, that's not gonna hurt AoEs that much. Most of the really good AoEs cover a much larger area that, and can be really hard to escape in a round. As for Touch spells...I mean...I guess you've nerfed Inflict Wounds, Plane Shift, and Contagion, but I can't think of many game breaking Touch spells.

Most of a caster's power comes from utility and control spells, a lot of which simply target a creature in range. And a majority of those have a range of 60ft or more, meaning its doubtful you'd escape them. That said, being hit could help out...but at the same time, any caster worth their salt will be able to make a Concentration check.


All in all, I'm not sure if this is the best route to take to achieve what you're after

[RSP]

So...I think you partially succeeded. The battlefield will change faster, and turns will happen more often. However, I don't think it'll be more dynamic or engaging. On the dynamic side, you penalize moving so much that creatures will not move unless they are trying to avoid some big AoE, or a Touch spell. As it currently stands, players have little reason to move. In this system, they are actively penalized for doing so and will move as little as possible.

Don’t players already move as little as possible?

Currently, if melee, you move into melee, then stand there until the enemy is defeated. That doesn’t change in ~3 second Turns.

If ranged, all you do with movement (when used) in 6 second Turns is keep out of melee range. In this home brew, that is “penalized” as you called it. I’m okay with that as this change helps the martial/ranged disparity.

So I don’t think it ultimately affects movement as much as you suspect it will, though it may well get rid of useless movement (the character moving just to move), which I’m fine with.



As for engagement, I don't think it'll be as engaging as you think. Turns will happen more often, but because things can change a lot really quickly, and because of the tactical decisions to be made with moving/attacking/spell casting/ect., turns will take longer. This is especially true if anyone has minions. Be they from class features, like a Creation Bard or Beastmaster Range, to spells, like Find Familiar or Summon X.

I don’t see too much other than find familiar with minions at my table, but good point about them. Though isn’t that already a noted problem in 5e: minions taking more time in combat Turns? I’m not sure it’s fair to say “but minions will slow down combat” as a criticism of ~3 second Turns, if they do that anyway in ~6 second Turns.

If anything, the BA every other Turn rule, helps this, I think: the caster decides what the minion(s) does, then can’t change it for two Turns, so if it’s “attack that enemy”, it’s not a new choice of what they do for two Turns, so it’s less choices.

But will review some of the options for minions to see how this could play out. Thanks!



Ehhh, I think that's just how you picture it. Most characters can do more than just attack twice, and unless there's something special happening they can all move at least 30 feet. Usually, if you have a character that can move more than 30 feet, make two attacks, and cast a Bonus Action spell, they're doing those things because of feats and special class abilities. So its less "The guy who just moves and makes two attacks is wasting time" and more "This one person received specialized training that lets them do all of this".

Feats and class abilities hold the same effect as in ~6 seconds Turns: if you can BA move, you can still do that every ~6 seconds.



Also, while its not in your goals, I noticed you mentioned that everyone else is sort of just standing and doing nothing when its not their turn. Teeechnically that's not what happens. All of the turns happen at the same time, in the same 6 seconds. Which is why you can't instantly react to someone casting a fireball to take cover before it goes off. You're busy making two or more attacks and moving at the same time that fireball is going off.

Yes and no. The in-game world rules say they happen all at the same time, however, in practice, there are often times this isn’t possible (at least in my experience - I’ve given examples of this so for conciseness I’ll skip providing more here). So the practice doesn’t follow the rule. That’s something I’m trying to help facility: concurrent Turns actually appearing to be happening concurrently.



So, with your method you end up nerfing ranged and skerkish characters to the point where they are no longer usable.

I don’t know what you mean by “skerkish”: is this “skirmish”?



A core part of the Monk is being able to get into and out of melee combat with ease due to their high mobility. The same holds true for Rogues, and somewhat for Rangers. That mobility doesn't mean **** now.

Again, in part. If a Monk can move 30’ attack and then move 15’ away, then see above about one character doing 6 seconds of activity then “standing still”. In the game world, the Monk is doing all of that 6 seconds before their target does any of their 6 seconds.

So those aren’t concurrent Turns. In the game world, either the Monk completes all that in a blur (in which case why are they then stopping and standing still for ~6 seconds?) or does all that over 6 seconds while their opponent just watches.

That mobility is still available in terms of distance covered and BA usage.

I’ll look over how carrying over movement affects this: for example, if you move on Turn 1, but end up with 10’ of movement left over, you can carry that over to Turn 2. Will see.



Ranged characters are also nerfed far too hard. Only being able to attack every other round is far too large of a penalty. Just let them make one attack every turn, but don't increase their number of attacks on each subsequent round unless they have Extra Attack. That encourages melee without removing range as an option, or making it a trap.

Being able to attack once over 6 seconds is what is currently allowed. I’m not sure resolving Turns sooner is a nerf: they’re still attacking once every 6 seconds. I like the suggestion of EA only working with melee, but feel this might actually be a nerf to ranged attackers. No reason for any Ranger ranged builds as EA now does nothing: from level 1 to 10 you can’t benefit from ranged builds (at 11 you can Volley though). Works well for a Rogue still, as they end up with effective EA. Will think about it, as it may solve some of the melee vs ranged in a different way.



Meanwhile, you haven't really made any significant changes to Casters. You've nerfed AoEs and Touch spells, sure. But AoEs and Touch spells aren't why Casters are so much stronger than Martials…

Most of a caster's power comes from utility and control spells, a lot of which simply target a creature in range…

I disagree that AoEs aren’t a big source of what separates casters and martials.

Plus, I think the round of casting IS a much bigger change to casters than you give it credit for. Intelligent enemies will focus on someone casting a spell: whether to take cover (which ends Line of Effect of the spell) or to attack the caster (most likely from range) to dismiss the spell with a failed Concentration roll during casting.

I like how this keeps spells as powerful things, but keeps them from automatic “I win” buttons.


Overall, very much appreciate the suggestions! These might cause change.


I foresee casters being even more focused on ac and con saves in this. I also think players will tend toward any caster that has strong no friendly fire spells. Clerics for Spirit Guardians. Druids for conjure animals. Evokers for fireball. Sorcerers for careful spell meta magic and control spells like hypnotic pattern or fear.

I think minions get nerfed with the every other Turn command. You can command to “attack the goblins” but if there’s multiple enemy types, they may stand around for a Turn.

Clerics and SG aren’t specifically impacted anymore than casting is in general but not horribly worried about that. I’m fine at this point with it re-weighing existing build choices a little: maybe I’ll see some new interesting builds.

I’m also not sure it makes AC/Con Svs more of a focus, as they’re already highly sought after. It’s not like in 6 second Turns you don’t Cleric 1/Wiz X builds running around with full plate and shields, or casters taking Resilient Con and/or Warcaster.

Generally speaking, having a Turn to react to the casting is going to be a significant nerf to casting, but I’ll need to see how it works in practice.



I suppose team monster at least gets 1/2 a round before an encounter ending spell goes off. That feels better, but most likely itÂ’s melee martials taking the brunt of the damage and effects in their extra offensive turn.

Perhaps but isn’t that just resource management then over the course of an adventuring day? Not opposed to it.



Then there’s healing magic, which is going to feel terrible waiting a whole turn to go off and also most often benefits melee martials.

So…less yo-yo healing? Not a bad thing in my book (though obviously will keep an eye on this: players might need to better adjust to it if they’re used to just popping up).



I think ranged combat is being needed too much, especially since eldritch blast and other cantrips exist and may cause as much damage as bows in this setup?

Maybe. Again, EB and other Cantrips can be thwarted by targeting the caster or being behind cover when they go off. Ranged, as currently designed, is just as effective in 3 second Turns as 6 second Turns, over 6 seconds. But may reevaluate it.

[titi]

Don’t players already move as little as possible?

Currently, if melee, you move into melee, then stand there until the enemy is defeated. That doesn’t change in ~3 second Turns.

If ranged, all you do with movement (when used) in 6 second Turns is keep out of melee range. In this home brew, that is “penalized” as you called it. I’m okay with that as this change helps the martial/ranged disparity.

So I don’t think it ultimately affects movement as much as you suspect it will, though it may well get rid of useless movement (the character moving just to move), which I’m fine with.

The thing is, currently in 5e there's no incentive to move in combat. It's not a good thing, but you can mitigate it by making more intersting maps (it's not the only way, but it's the most common).

With your homebrew, since you can't move and attack at the same time, there's an incentive to not move. Which is pretty bad considering at least 2 classes (rogue and monk) are designed around movement

[Frogreaver]

The thing is, currently in 5e there's no incentive to move in combat. It's not a good thing, but you can mitigate it by making more intersting maps (it's not the only way, but it's the most common).

With your homebrew, since you can't move and attack at the same time, there's an incentive to not move. Which is pretty bad considering at least 2 classes (rogue and monk) are designed around movement

More problematically for this system - Rogues can kite enemies pretty much forever if they just disengage and move each turn. Since the enemy must move to catch them, the enemy never gets any attacks off. The rogue never does either but thatÂ’s what friends are for!

On a side note. Reach weapons become a lot better in this! Move 10ft away. Enemy is in attack and OA range but can’t attack you it’s next turn.

[RSP]

More problematically for this system - Rogues can kite enemies pretty much forever if they just disengage and move each turn. Since the enemy must move to catch them, the enemy never gets any attacks off. The rogue never does either but thatÂ’s what friends are for!

On a side note. Reach weapons become a lot better in this! Move 10ft away. Enemy is in attack and OA range but can’t attack you it’s next turn.

Rogues can only BA every other Turn, if that’s what you’re suggesting.

I have no issues with Reach being a factor, though not as sure it’s a big deal. If you move out of 5’ reach, then that’s your Action and you take a OA. Then the opponent moves up, and you’ve gained nothing.

If you just utilize Reach to approach within 10’, well that’s the benefit of Reach, if the opponent needs to close the distance.

That said, I’m considering either a 5’ step or carryover movement, but the latter might be getting too complex for my tastes (though it may be workable on the VTT we use).

[Mellack]

Besides all the other issues mentioned, this change would significantly improve any damage over time effects. Something like spiritual guardians now does twice the damage compared to other attacks. Even better, creatures cannot attack and then leave the area, but must choose to not attack or leave. This was not a spell that was underpowered before, and now it is far better.

[titi]

Rogues can only BA every other Turn, if that’s what you’re suggesting.


Why ? They have 2 BA with regular rules. Are you saying they'd have 2 BA on 1 round, then 0 on the other with your rules?

[Frogreaver]

Rogues can only BA every other Turn, if that’s what you’re suggesting.

That fixes it.


I have no issues with Reach being a factor, though not as sure it’s a big deal. If you move out of 5’ reach, then that’s your Action and you take a OA. Then the opponent moves up, and you’ve gained nothing.

Wasn’t saying it was necessarily an issue. It could be if it skewed things too much toward reach weapons. Not sure it will.

[JackPhoenix]

Not sure the reasoning on this. Melee gets more out of it, but requires getting into weapon reach. Currently, melee still requires getting into reach range, but gets nothing for it.

The difference is, as things stand, melee characters can move to close the distance and attack, or simply Dash to close the distance sooner. In your model, melee characters can either move or attack, and require two turns to close the distance they would get by simply Dashing.


There aren’t more Turns per Round, either, I’m not sure why you think there are. You also don’t have a lack of options, just a limit of what you can do in one Turn.

Confusion from the idea that you give things that you should get every round once every 2nd turn.


Won’t lower DPR as you already need to move to get into range. That’s not new to this change, and happens all the time in games I play. If the norm for other tables is “every combatant is always within 25’ of every other combatant”, then yes, I guess this would be a big change for them.

It will. A normal character can move 30' and attack (potentially multiple times) or move 60'. Or more. With your rules, character can either move 30' (no option to Dash for 60') or make a single attack (or make 3 attacks every 2 turns). A character with Extra Attack does 2/3 of the DPR they normally do under your system, assuming they don't need to move. Ranged characters do 1/2 damage, because they can only attack once every turn. BA attack economy gets cut in half, too. Casters do ??? damage, because their spells will get interrupted or the enemies will disperse and reduce AoE output (not that damage is the real issue with casters).


On the contrary, skirmishes would be fine. A Rogue can still BA Disengage if they want. I may fiddle around more with working in a more usable Disengage action when moving; it just rarely comes up so hadn’t focused on it.

No, they won't. A rogue is the only one who can do that, and they only get BA only 2nd turn. They also can't move and attack at all without the BA. It's impossible for a rogue to move in, attack the enemy and disengage to move away. And as we're talking about BAs: TWF is overpowered and needed a nerf compared to current rules.


Which I’m fine with: the point being to resolve by shorter segments of time. I don’t like that one character can move 30’-effectively attack another creature (multiple times even)-then move another 30’, without the other creature doing anything, and then the other creature then gets 6 seconds of actions while now the original creature “stands still”. And somehow, though each set of 6 second actions occur in completely different time periods of in game action, they also some how occur over the same exact 6 second span.

This is the most important part of my post, and the source of every problem with your proposed houserules: Nobody gets "6 seconds of actions". Well, they do, but nobody (except you) cares about that. Nobody playing the game measures seconds passing in combat, only turns. And you won't change that. Except now everyone can do less things in a turn, and there's added need to track stuff that happens every 2nd turn.


Opinion noted. Ranged is still just as effective as current play (minus the new movement rule) - you’re still getting the same amount of attacks over ~6 seconds of game world time.

See above. Nobody cares about how much attacks they'll get in 6 seconds, because combat isn't measured in seconds. And the movement makes ranged combat even less effective beyond the lowered number of attacks.


Melee intentionally got a slight bump due to that currently being a suboptimal play style.

They don't. They simply get somewhat lesser penalty in one department, while being more affected by action economy issues from movement chagnes. Getting your effectiveness lowered to 2/3 instead of 1/2 is not a bump, it's still a penalty.


But either way, the casting of a non-Conc spell doesn’t take the Conc mechanic.

Fair enough.


Not really. Take a Rogue with CA as an example. Turn 1 they use Dash to move up to engage in melee. Enemy then goes, getting mild their Multiattack Attacks (at least 1 in melee). Then the Rogue goes and attacks (1 attack). Then the Rogue uses their BA to Dash with Cunning Action. Enemy gets 1 attack as a OA. Then Enemy uses Dash to reengage the Rogue. Then the Rogue Attacks (1 attack), but can’t BA again because it’s every other Turn. So the Enemy goes again and Attacks.

Yeah, that's the point. Nobody in their right mind should move to engage in melee, because they are wasting their action and will get attacked as a reward. Everyone with a bit of common sense will want the enemy to move to them. So it would be : Turn 1, the rogue uses a ranged attack. Enemy goes, moves up to engage in melee (because the nebulous "enemy" is more likely than not lacking a ranged attack option). Rogue attacks, BA Dash away (or Disengage and BA Dash, if they don't want to provoke OA, because Disengage and move is now impossible for anyone without non-action-Dash movement option), gets OA. Enemy uses Dash to reengage the rogue, but can't attack anymore. The rogue can't use BA, so they Dash away, because single OA is better than staying put and eating a (nerfed) multiattack on the enemy's turn. The result: The combat takes much longer, because nobody's able to provide their full damage output and most of the turns is spent by simply moving, the enemy doesn't get to use proper (multi)attack once per the entire battle.


Again, I think a lot of this can be resolved by keeping the 6 second turn duration and making certain effects last until the next Turn.

Right. So more changes to fix what the houserules broke.


Getting more use out of “waste” abilities is very much a hope of this change, as is potentially making “must have because always optimal” abilities more balanced (Shield for instance).

The only difference is that different tactics and abilities are now considered optimal.


Not really. Again, if all your combats always operate with everyone within 25’ of each other at all times, sure. But that’s not as I’ve experienced it. Enemies sometimes go first and may close the distance as well. Spellcasters casting can still be hit from range.

Yes, that's the point. You WANT your enemies to be the ones closing the distance, because doing so yourself is a bad idea. You'll waste your turn and get attacked. Better to get the enemy to waste theirs and attack them. Which means it's better to be a Dex-based (as if that wasn't the case already), because you'll get better ranged options before that happens.


I’m not sure the Assassin being a bad option is unique to this change, but again, just make the duration to benefit from their abilities stay at 6 seconds, or in this case two Rounds. I think that actually benefits the subclass.

It's not unique, your change just makes the issue worse. And, again needlessly increasing complexity to fix what you've broke, because you're obsessed with the 6 seconds figure for some reason.


Surprise still works. Not sure why it wouldn’t.

You surprise enemy. Instead of moving and attacking them while they are still surprised, you'll waste your turn moving, and the enemy will stop being surprised before they can be attacked.

[JNAProductions]

Echoing Jack Phoenix's big point, as best I can tell:

Combat time in D&D 5E is not measured in seconds. It's measured in turns or rounds, which can be converted to seconds, but that's not the base measurement. Making each turn take half as many seconds doesn't change that.

[Frogreaver]

Personally I like the basic notion of more turns where you do less in each turn.

That said I think this implantation gets confusing with what you can do every turn vs every other turn.

[RSP]

Besides all the other issues mentioned, this change would significantly improve any damage over time effects. Something like spiritual guardians now does twice the damage compared to other attacks. Even better, creatures cannot attack and then leave the area, but must choose to not attack or leave. This was not a spell that was underpowered before, and now it is far better.

Good point. Will need to build in the 6 second tick rather than 3 seconds. Thanks.


Echoing Jack Phoenix's big point, as best I can tell:

Combat time in D&D 5E is not measured in seconds. It's measured in turns or rounds, which can be converted to seconds, but that's not the base measurement. Making each turn take half as many seconds doesn't change that.

I am thinking it’s probably easier to sub divide Rounds/Turns rather than shortening them.

So each Round, go through initiative order twice, then next round starts. Might be easier bookkeeping as well, while keeping the quicker in-game resolution aspect.

Will think on it.

**Updated OP to reflect some changes that were pointed out/suggested! Thanks!**