Can someone remind me of this?

[gellerche]

So there's one Gate left. My remembering is that if it's destroyed like the others, The Snarl is released and everyone gets devoured. Is that right?

Thanks!

[Anymage]

That's what everybody believes, yes. And if the last gate gets blown up, the gods will very possibly destroy the world to at least save everyone's souls because they're expecting the snarl to go free.

Little details like the fact that there's a planet inside the rifts that even the gods don't know about and the largely quiet nature of the snarl, plus dramatic convention, lead me to believe that there's more to it. Specifics here are all conjecture, though.

[ZhonLord]

In spite of the planet in the rift, however, The Snarl has shown many of the same behaviors as previously. A rift opens, the Snarl reaches through and attacks whatever's in reach. It did so to the five rifts originally, and again in the desert. At first glance, everything appears to be the same.

But I'm thinking that these Gates are the first time someone has attempted to patch the rifts. And as such, the Snarl has had a "sneak peek" at the exterior of its prison for the first time. I think it's learning something that it never had input data on before. And that's a factor in why it hasn't struck out at Gobbotopia as well.

[Edreyn]

Who knows, maybe when last Gate is destroyed, Snarl will come out and tell his own version of the story. Something that will twist everything upside down.

[KorvinStarmast]

But I'm thinking that these Gates are the first time someone has attempted to patch the rifts. And as such, the Snarl has had a "sneak peek" at the exterior of its prison for the first time. I think it's learning something that it never had input data on before. And that's a factor in why it hasn't struck out at Gobbotopia as well. That's a neat idea; no idea if you are correct, but I like how it relates the world inside the rift to how long this world has lasted ...

Who knows, maybe when last Gate is destroyed, Snarl will come out and tell his own version of the story. Something that will twist everything upside down. "The real Snarl is the friends enemies we made along the way" ... :smallcool:or something like that?

[Lord Torath]

In the desert, Lauren was actively probing around in the rift, which could be what grabbed the Snarl's attention. Otherwise it might have been many years before it realized there were holes in its prison.

[Edreyn]

That's a neat idea; no idea if you are correct, but I like how it relates the world inside the rift to how long this world has lasted ...
"The real Snarl is the friends enemies we made along the way" ... :smallcool:or something like that?

I actually think of something like: "Silly mortals! Gods toy with you, create and destroy you just of boredom. I am the only entity that ever dared to oppose them. All those worlds you saw in Astral were undone because mortals living there rebeled against gods!"

Twists like that happen more in movies or games, rather then in books, but who knows.

Or maybe it can be something like: "All I want is to find my son! Last time I heard of him, they forced him to amuse people in the circus! Whenever I am getting close to find him, gods destroy world and shift him to new one, that's just to troll me! Understand, mortal? Your world, as countless other exists only to toy with me and my beloved son."

It's up to readers to decide how much irony is involved in both quotes.

[Psyren]

In the desert, Lauren was actively probing around in the rift, which could be what grabbed the Snarl's attention. Otherwise it might have been many years before it realized there were holes in its prison.

I'd wager that if she didn't, the remnants of the Holey Brotherhood would have :smallbiggrin:


In spite of the planet in the rift, however, The Snarl has shown many of the same behaviors as previously. A rift opens, the Snarl reaches through and attacks whatever's in reach. It did so to the five rifts originally, and again in the desert. At first glance, everything appears to be the same.

But I'm thinking that these Gates are the first time someone has attempted to patch the rifts. And as such, the Snarl has had a "sneak peek" at the exterior of its prison for the first time. I think it's learning something that it never had input data on before. And that's a factor in why it hasn't struck out at Gobbotopia as well.

You're touching on something I was curious about too - the height of the rifts (both sides) appears different. Gobbotopia's is in the sky, and when Blackwing looks through he sees the entire planet as though from space. Girard's is in the desert, and on the other side it appears to be at sea level. I can't fathom what it might mean, but it's... something.

[Coppercloud]

You're touching on something I was curious about too - the height of the rifts (both sides) appears different. Gobbotopia's is in the sky, and when Blackwing looks through he sees the entire planet as though from space. Girard's is in the desert, and on the other side it appears to be at sea level. I can't fathom what it might mean, but it's... something.

What if the rifts were in the same position relative to one another in both OotSworld and Snarlworld, but the latter was just really tiny, like the planet from The Little Prince? Or both planets could be roughly the same size, just offset a bit, which would mean one of the other rifts leads to the inside of Snarlworld or to an underground cave there. Just spitballing.

[Bohandas]

I'm thinking that maybe the rift planet is the snarl. It's not a formless tangle of power but rather the hopelessly messed up first planet

[yes]

I wonder if it's possible that in the rifts are also remnants of the eastern pantheon. With the emphasis on needing 4 colors to seal the snarl away, and that both the Dark One and Redcloak are averse to cooperating, and the knowledge of there being another existing color already, and that there exists something in the rifts that we know gods can create, I don't think it's implausible. Could even get by with the explanation that with only green quiddity within the rift, while the creations wouldn't be fully real, there was so little disagreement that the surviving Eastern gods were able to create without attracting the Snarl's attention.

[Psyren]

I'm thinking that maybe the rift planet is the snarl. It's not a formless tangle of power but rather the hopelessly messed up first planet

I think you're on to something. And it helps explain where the souls "eaten" by the Snarl might actually be (and gives a reason why the IFCC might be so interested in what's going on wrt to the rifts.)

[Kish]

I wonder if it's possible that in the rifts are also remnants of the eastern pantheon. With the emphasis on needing 4 colors to seal the snarl away, and that both the Dark One and Redcloak are averse to cooperating, and the knowledge of there being another existing color already, and that there exists something in the rifts that we know gods can create, I don't think it's implausible. Could even get by with the explanation that with only green quiddity within the rift, while the creations wouldn't be fully real, there was so little disagreement that the surviving Eastern gods were able to create without attracting the Snarl's attention.
I do not think "Psyche! You don't need to convince Redcloak or the Dark One to cooperate, you can get back to slaughtering evil greenskins" is in the cards.

Same as my answer when people were saying, often asserting as fact until Rich explicitly refuted it, that Durkon just needed to trick Redcloak into casting Implosion at the right time and place and his willing cooperation was irrelevant. Rich has set up "you need to convince this hostile character and his hostile god to cooperate with you." He would not have set that up if he didn't want it to be the situation in the comic and he is not going to handwave it away. Him trying to kill Durkon is "establish that he's hostile and uninclined to listen and thus Durkon's mission is hard," not "forget what we just said about Durkon's mission."

[Precure]

Roy Greenquiddity will bring up his "all new, all different" green quiddity to fix it, only to learn that you actually need 5 different quiddities since the snarl is made out of 4.

[Ruck]

I'm thinking that maybe the rift planet is the snarl. It's not a formless tangle of power but rather the hopelessly messed up first planet

I wouldn't be surprised if the Snarl has become intelligent enough to simulate a planet-- if not actually create life, based on what we know of the desert rift-- but I'm more skeptical on "first" planet now given just how many worlds we now know have been created.

[Laurentio III]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Snarl has become intelligent enough to simulate a planet
Based on the fact that the Snarl originates from people (gods) violently arguing during a planet creation, we can assume that "create planets" and "argue violently" are the two things the Snarl is proficient at.
So we have a planet with a single, easily triggered god?
... I'l stop here before I break a few forum rules.

[KorvinStarmast]

Him trying to kill Durkon is "establish that he's hostile and uninclined to listen and thus Durkon's mission is hard," not "forget what we just said about Durkon's mission." This.

Roy Greenquiddity will bring up his "all new, all different" green quiddity to fix it, only to learn that you actually need 5 different quiddities since the snarl is made out of 4. That doesn't fit what Thor said - the Dark One's quiddity is new - nor what was in the exposition by Shojo (the four pantheons created and argued, each with their own PoV (later quiddity) making up part of the weave.

With that objection registered, there are in fact purple strands depicted in the crayon supported narration in strip 0273, so the violet/purple quiddity may have been potentially floating around awaiting an opportunity to coalesce or manifest. As presented, though, the Snarl is a direct byproduct of the efforts of the four pantheons, and Thor explained on-screen that each of the original pantheon was a single quiddity source. Where the fifth would manifest from is an open question (although it might arise as a byproduct of the chaos/hostility/argument between pantheons).

I was going to try and make a parallel with Dark Matter and Dark Energy from contemporary discussions in astrophysics. That topic was certainly around in the 00's when Rich was writing those strips. How familiar one would be with that discussion depends a lot on what you tend to read - I had a decades long subscription to Scientific American, so I was familiar with it. But I am not going to, since the worlds of D&D operate on metaphysics, not physics.

[Precure]

It was Thor's reasoning that their creations don't hold Snarl imprisoned because it's created from 4 quiddities whereas they can create now with only 3 quiddities, hence the snarl is more real than their creations and its attacks are super effective against the earth. Adding DO/RC's new quiddity would be more resistant against snarl, since they both have 4 Qs and equally real now. But I think it's still dangerous, and the snarl might break free from something equally powerful to it, just like how I can break things equally real to me. So, the perfect solution would be adding a fifth quiddity, something that would make the world more real than Snarl and solve their problem for ever. It might even rid the gods and outsiders themselves, as they would be too "unreal" to have any real affect on this new world. And a new age of mortals will begin.

[KorvinStarmast]

So, the perfect solution would be adding a fifth quiddity, something that would make the world more real than Snarl and solve their problem for ever. It might even rid the gods and outsiders themselves, as they would be too "unreal" to have any real affect on this new world. And a new age of mortals will begin. I understand your line of reasoning, but do not see where the fifth/green quiddity comes from.
Four quiddities is 'good enough' in this case. There's no pressing need for perfect (in terms of time). In the longer term, if the fifth / green quiddity can be restored that would be nice.
Also likely to happen off-screen, like Tarquin's demise.

[Precure]

Well, I'm still hopeful about my "Roy Greenquiddity" theory.

[137beth]

I actually think of something like: "Silly mortals! Gods toy with you, create and destroy you just of boredom. I am the only entity that ever dared to oppose them. All those worlds you saw in Astral were undone because mortals living there rebeled against gods!"

Twists like that happen more in movies or games, rather then in books, but who knows.

Or maybe it can be something like: "All I want is to find my son! Last time I heard of him, they forced him to amuse people in the circus! Whenever I am getting close to find him, gods destroy world and shift him to new one, that's just to troll me! Understand, mortal? Your world, as countless other exists only to toy with me and my beloved son."

It's up to readers to decide how much irony is involved in both quotes.

I feel like it's been awhile since I've seen a "The MitD is Snarl Jr" post. It used to be a really common idea (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?654611-MitD-XVIII-It-s-utterly-unreasonable-to-expect-us-to-have-been-paying-any-attention&p=25723143&viewfull=1#post25723143) on the forum.

[KorvinStarmast]

Well, I'm still hopeful about my "Roy Greenquiddity" theory. I was certainly a fan of that a while back, but the response to 'why not' were sufficiently clear that I did not pursue it further.

[brian 333]

The fact of purple colored lines in the crayon drawing is not related to the existence of a purple quiddity. Quiddity 'color' is just a convenient tag to differentiate between them. It could as easily have been Top, Charm, Spin, and Up, with Bottom and Down reserved for future quiddity emergences.

I will propose that sealing the rifts will happen, but not in the way it happened for The Order of the Scribble. The Snarl will turn out to be less hostile than the gods remember, and will be trying to build its own world. It will need an infusion of Life. This will come from mass migrations of Stickverse beings into the Snarlworld, (going from 2d to 3d in the process,) followed by cooperatively sealing The Rifts from both sides. The Four Quidity issue will have been resolved, but The Snarl will no longer care to bash through the walls of the universe.

[Blue Dragon]

"All I want is to find my son! Last time I heard of him, they forced him to amuse people in the circus! Whenever I am getting close to find him, gods destroy world and shift him to new one, that's just to troll me! Understand, mortal? Your world, as countless other exists only to toy with me and my beloved son."

My daughter and I firmly believe that Great Beast in Shadow is the spawn of the Snarl, too! Welcome to the club (current active members: 3) And we also think that because of this, Great Beast in Shadow will be instrumental if there is any direct contact with The Snarl.


I think you're on to something. And it helps explain where the souls "eaten" by the Snarl might actually be (and gives a reason why the IFCC might be so interested in what's going on wrt to the rifts.)

Sounds right.


Well, I'm still hopeful about my "Roy Greenquiddity" theory.

I'd love (and by that I mean L O V E) see somebody with such contempt for the gods like Greenhilt ascending to be one solely based on his frustration but I think he doesn't pack the punch needed to do it and he is just not high level enough. I mean, The Dark One probably wanted and seeked worship while still alive and I don't see Roy doing it.


The Snarl will turn out to be less hostile than the gods remember, and will be trying to build its own world. It will need an infusion of Life. This will come from mass migrations of Stickverse beings into the Snarlworld, (going from 2nd to 3rd in the process,) followed by cooperatively sealing The Rifts from both sides. The Four Quidity issue will have been resolved, but The Snarl will no longer care to bash through the walls of the universe.

A sound theory. Of course, because I imagined it as well. And if confirms what I think…

P.S. I am very happy of finally learning to use the multiple quotes, I was afraid to mess up but it worked well!

[Ionathus]

I do not think "Psyche! You don't need to convince Redcloak or the Dark One to cooperate, you can get back to slaughtering evil greenskins" is in the cards.

It's never stopped anyone before. Remember all that speculation about "Redcloak is going to die, and then they're going to (somehow) befriend Jirix, who will become the new High Priest of TDO and will rapidly gain enough levels to cast 9th-level spells, and then he'll help seal the gates"?

Once you start from the position that "Redcloak is obviously irredeemable forever and I've decided his still-being-depicted internal conflict (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1262.html) is over now and he's Pure Bad and will never consider helping again", you're only left with pretty outlandish options for resolving the Purple Quiddity plot thread. Inventing improbable anticlimaxes is basically inevitable at that point.


Him trying to kill Durkon is "establish that he's hostile and uninclined to listen and thus Durkon's mission is hard," not "forget what we just said about Durkon's mission."

Yes, exactly -- thank you. If Redcloak had listened to Durkon right then and there and changed his mind at the start of the final book, it wouldn't have carried any real narrative weight. This is the first olive branch anyone from the """civilized""" races has offered to Redcloak; it makes perfect sense that he would reject it, and then stew on what Durkon & Minrah said and let it get under his skin. Which is precisely what we see already happening in the "Two Villages" conversation with Oona.

[hroþila]

I don't think it's particularly far-fetched that Redcloak will die, not because he's irredeemable but because it would be entirely in-character for him to turn away from redemption even at the last moment, double down and meet his own death (I'm like 35-65 on this happening). And since Jirix is the only viable alternative, I don't think it's particularly far-fetched that a scenario where Redcloak dies would have Jirix cooperating with the Order in some way. And since he's currently not high enough level to cast the required spell, I don't think it's particularly far-fetched that the story will go differently.

Perhaps if they can get the Dark One himself to cooperate directly they won't need one of his clerics, even if they do want to help? (And perhaps Jirix can convince the Dark One through diplomacy?) Or perhaps the story will merely end after the immediate threat to the Gates has been resolved and with enough steps being taken towards fixing the Snarl problem and the goblinoid problem, thus providing hope that the OotS world will heal but leaving it kinda open, and that being part of the point? More likely, perhaps something completely different will happen.

At any rate, I think it's unfair to suggest that the only reason why one would think that Redcloak will not be redeemed is that they must think he's "irredeemable forever" and that he's "Pure Bad". Much as I agree that any theories that would solve the problem without the willing participation of the goblinoid representatives are missing the point.

[KorvinStarmast]

Yes, exactly -- thank you. If Redcloak had listened to Durkon right then and there and changed his mind at the start of the final book, it wouldn't have carried any real narrative weight.
This is the first olive branch anyone from the """civilized""" races has offered to Redcloak; it makes perfect sense that he would reject it, and then stew on what Durkon & Minrah said and let it get under his skin.
Which is precisely what we see already happening in the "Two Villages" conversation with Oona. Redcloak has demonstrated that he cares about the well being of others ~ I think he demonstrated some genuine positive emotion as Gobbotopia was being established ~ but since he's wearing an Artifact he is bound to have at least minor, and maybe even major, side effects.
I don't know how you'd classify it, but "will kill my own brother to advance the plan" is plausibly a manifestation of one of the negative side effects of that artifact that he's wearing. His being susceptible to the sunk cost fallacy is likewise a possible side effect of wearing that artifact. (Artifacts in various D&D editions have had side effects, beneficial and detrimental, so I see no reason that this one would not have both).

And of course, it may not be anything D&D mechanical at all but a narrative approach to how the character takes shape, what motivates them, etc.

[Ionathus]

I don't think it's particularly far-fetched that Redcloak will die, not because he's irredeemable but because it would be entirely in-character for him to turn away from redemption even at the last moment, double down and meet his own death (I'm like 35-65 on this happening). And since Jirix is the only viable alternative, I don't think it's particularly far-fetched that a scenario where Redcloak dies would have Jirix cooperating with the Order in some way. And since he's currently not high enough level to cast the required spell, I don't think it's particularly far-fetched that the story will go differently.

Perhaps if they can get the Dark One himself to cooperate directly they won't need one of his clerics, even if they do want to help? (And perhaps Jirix can convince the Dark One through diplomacy?) Or perhaps the story will merely end after the immediate threat to the Gates has been resolved and with enough steps being taken towards fixing the Snarl problem and the goblinoid problem, thus providing hope that the OotS world will heal but leaving it kinda open, and that being part of the point? More likely, perhaps something completely different will happen.

To be clear: I don't believe that Redcloak is guaranteed redemption. I think he's still genuinely stuck in his "I've come too far to stop now" mentality and he may indeed die without leaving that position. Redemption is not for everyone after all. Anything is possible and I have full faith in Rich's storytelling chops to pull off whatever twists happen along the way.

My point was more about commenters who were trying to come up with any available excuse they could find to sideline Redcloak, the character who has an entire prequel book dedicated to his internal conflict, in favor of Jirix, a character who has never demonstrated any conflict whatsoever about his role in the goblinoids' cause1. Of those two characters, one still has a lot more narrative meat on the bone, so to speak. Heck, even Oona is a better candidate for "goblinoid diplomacy" if Redcloak were off the table - having recently both challenged him on his actions and demonstrated appreciation for Minrah's...uh...classic bugbear debate tactics :smallbiggrin:

1. Jirix is deliberately more "relaxed" as a leader than Redcloak, as evidenced in his coronation speech, but at no point does he question The Plan or Redcloak's actions.


At any rate, I think it's unfair to suggest that the only reason why one would think that Redcloak will not be redeemed is that they must think he's "irredeemable forever" and that he's "Pure Bad". Much as I agree that any theories that would solve the problem without the willing participation of the goblinoid representatives are missing the point.

Sorry, I didn't mean to paint with such a broad brush: this was a specific complaint of mine about a vocal group of commenters shortly after the Durkon/Redcloak scene, who absolutely were declaring that Redcloak was irredeemable forever and would never, ever, ever be given another chance at redemption; that him casting Implosion on Durkon was his permanent departure into the Moral Event Horizon, that the comic was finished challenging Redcloak on his thoughts and actions, and that Jirix was the obvious next choice. This similar but different theory struck a nerve and I lumped people into that bucket without meaning to.


Redcloak has demonstrated that he cares about the well being of others ~ I think he demonstrated some genuine positive emotion as Gobbotopia was being established ~ but since he's wearing an Artifact he is bound to have at least minor, and maybe even major, side effects.
I don't know how you'd classify it, but "will kill my own brother to advance the plan" is plausibly a manifestation of one of the negative side effects of that artifact that he's wearing. His being susceptible to the sunk cost fallacy is likewise a possible side effect of wearing that artifact. (Artifacts in various D&D editions have had side effects, beneficial and detrimental, so I see no reason that this one would not have both).

And of course, it may not be anything D&D mechanical at all but a narrative approach to how the character takes shape, what motivates them, etc.

I suppose it's possible that the artifact is affecting his personality directly, but personally I don't see it. It's more interesting to me if Redcloak is the way he is because of his upbringing, the traumatic events of his early adulthood, the god he worships being apparently fueled in part by bitterness and distrust, and the accumulation of his mistakes and regrets, than if a magical artifact is (even mildly) possessing him and making him think certain things. I think the former is a lot more compelling character-wise than the latter.

Of course, I do think the Crimson Mantle affects him in ways that affect his judgment.

Right-Eye has a great line towards the end of SoD about how the Crimson Mantle's anti-aging properties have essentially frozen Redcloak in time, preventing him from letting go of his quest for vengeance, and how people who don't have centuries to spend on cosmic revenge are a lot more prone to focus on improving the here-and-now. By comparison, Redcloak is "still the same angry kid who took that cloak off his master's corpse." And that definitely impacts his willingness to cling to The Plan! I think it's just a bit more subtle and nuanced than an overt personality-affecting feature; more like a logical consequence of how the cloak is designed. Which at a certain point maybe just becomes semantics: if TDO wants to encourage certain behavior in his High Priest, it makes sense for him to endow the cloak with attributes that incentivize that behavior.
It's like the difference between a player getting a cursed sword that explicitly turns you into a bloodthirsty murderer, and an uncursed sword that just gives you really great buffs every time you kill a humanoid. The latter is more interesting to me as a DM, because it's a choice that the PC is making every time -- and is there any chance, whatsoever, that they'll start to kill people they otherwise wouldn't because of the benefits of the sword? Not full-blown serial killer, but maybe it moves the "kill/spare" needle juuust enough that certain hostile/neutral NPCs they would've otherwise captured become worth killing instead. That's the kind of magical item effects I find the most compelling.

[lio45]

I don't think it's particularly far-fetched that Redcloak will die, not because he's irredeemable but because it would be entirely in-character for him to turn away from redemption even at the last moment, double down and meet his own death (I'm like 35-65 on this happening). And since Jirix is the only viable alternative, I don't think it's particularly far-fetched that a scenario where Redcloak dies would have Jirix cooperating with the Order in some way. And since he's currently not high enough level to cast the required spell, I don't think it's particularly far-fetched that the story will go differently.

Perhaps if they can get the Dark One himself to cooperate directly they won't need one of his clerics, even if they do want to help? (And perhaps Jirix can convince the Dark One through diplomacy?) Or perhaps the story will merely end after the immediate threat to the Gates has been resolved and with enough steps being taken towards fixing the Snarl problem and the goblinoid problem, thus providing hope that the OotS world will heal but leaving it kinda open, and that being part of the point? More likely, perhaps something completely different will happen.

At any rate, I think it's unfair to suggest that the only reason why one would think that Redcloak will not be redeemed is that they must think he's "irredeemable forever" and that he's "Pure Bad". Much as I agree that any theories that would solve the problem without the willing participation of the goblinoid representatives are missing the point.I was going to say Ionathus hit the nail on the head but you’re correct as well: I’ll “dial down” my minimum Obviousness Requirements of the Story to “the Good Guys manage to convince the Goblin Faction to betray Xykon, and their Purple Quiddity contributes to saving the day”, without being firm on Redcloak’s personal trajectory specifically.

[gbaji]

I think that the purple quiddity will come into play in the ultimate resolution of the rifts/gates. I also don't think that Redcloak will just immediately do an about face on this though, but will pretty much be forced to face that fact somewhere along the line. On way or another though, to whatever degree the purple quiddity does end out being involved, it will be Redcloak doing it. There's just too much development for his character to just push him aside and replace him with someone else IMO.

I also think that before this, Redcloak and Xykon will have a violent falling out. Almost certainly during the Final Fight in the Final Dungeon at the Final Gate (cause... drama, right?).

I also think that the IFCC will step in at some point in all of this and push the entire story in a new/different direction. The resolution wont be as simple as "Xykon defeated; Redcloak agrees to use the purple quiddity to seal the rifts; the end". It'll look like it's heading that way and then "bam!" IFCC throws a wrinkle in the mix.

I also think that said IFCC injected wrinkle will (possibly not intentionally) result in some method of interacting with or exploration (even if brief) of the Planet in the Rift. There's also been too many mentions of something being on the other side of the rifts, and that we don't know the full story, for this not to come up and (almost certainly) be highly relevant to the actual resolution of the story. We'll then learn more about the current status of the snarl, and the rifts, and the planet within, which will serve to wrap up all the lose ends nicely.

I also happen to think that Belkar will either die heroically during this stage of the story or be left behind on said planet in said rift, either one of which fulfills the Oracle's prophesies.

And then we get to our "the end" bit.

[Bohandas]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Snarl has become intelligent enough to simulate a planet-- if not actually create life, based on what we know of the desert rift-- but I'm more skeptical on "first" planet now given just how many worlds we now know have been created.

Well I'm not talking about the snarl creating it or turning into it but "the snarl" literally meaning the planet and its inhabitants. I was thinking something along the lines of the planet Krikkit from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy 3, which was sealed in a pocket dimension because its inhabitants kept trying to destroy the universe.

[Precure]

The snarl was already smart enough to hate.

[KorvinStarmast]

The snarl was already smart enough to hate. Care to explain how being able to hate is smart?

[Errorname]

Well I'm not talking about the snarl creating it or turning into it but "the snarl" literally meaning the planet and its inhabitants. I was thinking something along the lines of the planet Krikkit from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy 3, which was sealed in a pocket dimension because its inhabitants kept trying to destroy the universe.

We know from the scene with Laurin that the Snarl as described by the Azurites and the Gods is actually real.

[RatElemental]

RE: Redcloak and the redemption thereof, I think I fall into a third camp here. Redcloak won't be redeemed. But he will cooperate with the gods to seal away the snarl.

I think he'll have a moment like what happened in the siege of Azure City, realize he cares about the goblinoids, and that his actions haven't been conducive to their well being, and play ball to get them a better deal in this world. And then he'll either croak or go retire in Gobbotopia having not turned over a single leaf.

Under Jirix's rule, I think the baby-eating levels of evilness will have been toned down, but it'll remain a theocratic dictatorship all the same, probably with the slaves returned to the Azurites as part of the peace deal. At most we'll probably get some kind of hope spot of some high ranking human/dwarf/goblin/elf diplomats begrudgingly shaking hands and an implication that in time Gobbotopia making stronger connections with other nations will precipitate into goblinoids in general starting to be more accepted in other nations.

Then we'll get a nice funeral scene for Belkar, probably with only Minrah in attendance, and then Vaarsuvius will fly off into the sunset to lands unknown to begin their lifelong mission of trying to make up for casting familicide. Elan and Haley go off to probably continue doing hero stuff together, such as deposing Tarquin offscreen. Roy, having fulfilled his family's blood oath and proving that fighters are awesome, settles down in the plane of air with Celia and writes a book or two. Roll credits.


That kinda got away from me at the end there, but yeah. That's more or less how I picture this all going. I can't wait for Rich to prove me wrong on every single point.

[KorvinStarmast]

Under Jirix's rule, I think the baby-eating levels of evilness will have been toned down, but it'll remain a theocratic dictatorship all the same, probably with the slaves returned to the Azurites as part of the peace deal. At most we'll probably get some kind of hope spot of some high ranking human/dwarf/goblin/elf diplomats begrudgingly shaking hands and an implication that in time Gobbotopia making stronger connections with other nations will precipitate into goblinoids in general starting to be more accepted in other nations. I can see that working out. Jirix seems to be a little more charismatic, warm, as compared to Redcloak.

Then we'll get a nice funeral scene for Belkar, probably with only Minrah in attendance
Durkon will show up

, and then Vaarsuvius will fly off into the sunset to lands unknown to begin their lifelong mission of trying to make up for casting familicide. Yep

Elan and Haley go off to probably continue doing hero stuff together, such as deposing Tarquin offscreen.
I think Ian and Amun Zora have that sewed up.

Roy, having fulfilled his family's blood oath and proving that fighters are awesome, settles down in the plane of air with Celia and writes a book or two. Roll credits. I don't think he settles in the plane of air. He saved the world. No need for him to lose it in the process. Roy made the point in one strip about "why do we do this?" and arrived at "Because we care." I'll estimate that after visiting the plane of air, and all of the airheads there, he and Celia settle down somewhere in OotSworld, or, they travel all over OotSworld getting to know it better (since they saved it).

I can't wait for Rich to prove me wrong on every single point. Likely. :smallsmile:

[Bohandas]

Care to explain how being able to hate is smart?

Presumanbly it requires both consciousness and awareness of the world. It's not an automaton.

[brian 333]

RE: Redcloak and the redemption thereof, I think I fall into a third camp here. Redcloak won't be redeemed. But he will cooperate with the gods to seal away the snarl.

I think he'll have a moment like what happened in the siege of Azure City, realize he cares about the goblinoids, and that his actions haven't been conducive to their well being, and play ball to get them a better deal in this world. And then he'll either croak or go retire in Gobbotopia having not turned over a single leaf.

Under Jirix's rule, I think the baby-eating levels of evilness will have been toned down, but it'll remain a theocratic dictatorship all the same, probably with the slaves returned to the Azurites as part of the peace deal. At most we'll probably get some kind of hope spot of some high ranking human/dwarf/goblin/elf diplomats begrudgingly shaking hands and an implication that in time Gobbotopia making stronger connections with other nations will precipitate into goblinoids in general starting to be more accepted in other nations.

Then we'll get a nice funeral scene for Belkar, probably with only Minrah in attendance, and then Vaarsuvius will fly off into the sunset to lands unknown to begin their lifelong mission of trying to make up for casting familicide. Elan and Haley go off to probably continue doing hero stuff together, such as deposing Tarquin offscreen. Roy, having fulfilled his family's blood oath and proving that fighters are awesome, settles down in the plane of air with Celia and writes a book or two. Roll credits.


That kinda got away from me at the end there, but yeah. That's more or less how I picture this all going. I can't wait for Rich to prove me wrong on every single point.

I agree with most of this, except that Elan and Haley won't be needed to save the Western Continent, and that I think Belkar's funeral will be the social event of the century.

I don't think Belkar will be redeemed, but I do think his death will be used for huge propaganda points. Something on the lines of, "This horrible person was able to grow beyond the petty villainy of his past and create a new beginning for all of us! Let us remember his sacrifice as we strive to set aside our own pettiness to create a new beginning for our children!"

Hinjo's speech will be recorded and played on the overhead projector at school every year on Belkar's Day. (Okay, maybe not that part.)

[KorvinStarmast]

Let us remember his sacrifice Kraagor wept. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)

[Errorname]

Presumably it requires both consciousness and awareness of the world. It's not an automaton.

Sure, but that's well within the capabilities of a lot of animals, not necessarily a sign of higher intellect. Hate is a simple emotion.


I agree with most of this, except that Elan and Haley won't be needed to save the Western Continent

Yeah, my bet is either Tarquin gets taken out by Sabine as part of the Fiend's plot, or Amun-Zora brings his empire down. Either way he's getting taken out unceremoniously and offstage by a woman of colour whose lover he callously murdered and whose threat he dismissed because they didn't fit his preconceptions of what his narrative ought to be.

[Ionathus]

RE: Redcloak and the redemption thereof, I think I fall into a third camp here. Redcloak won't be redeemed. But he will cooperate with the gods to seal away the snarl.

I think he'll have a moment like what happened in the siege of Azure City, realize he cares about the goblinoids, and that his actions haven't been conducive to their well being, and play ball to get them a better deal in this world. And then he'll either croak or go retire in Gobbotopia having not turned over a single leaf.

In my book at least, that's not a third camp: what you described is basically what I think of when I think of "redemption" for Redcloak. I have no expectations or hopes that Redcloak would actually turn fully from his Evil alignment -- just that he would abandon his spite and make the pragmatic choice to let go of The Plan. He can stay Evil for all I care; he'd just have to let go of his insane risky basically-revenge plan and agree to sit at the table and talk with other leaders, pushing Gobbotopia (and the world) towards stability and helping to initiate goblinoid tolerance among other civilizations.

[spectralphoenix]

I'm wondering if the goblins (and other 'monstrous' races) will ultimately end up settling on the planet within the rift. Laurin has noted that it contains massive resources with no living beings to claim it, so the goblins could have their own rich lands and the Azurites could have their city back.

[brian 333]

I'm wondering if the goblins (and other 'monstrous' races) will ultimately end up settling on the planet within the rift. Laurin has noted that it contains massive resources with no living beings to claim it, so the goblins could have their own rich lands and the Azurites could have their city back.

Would the goblins be happy on a world with nothing to fight? They are, after all, created for conflict. Even Redcloak does not object to endless war. He objects to endless war that is observably unfair to his side.

[spectralphoenix]

Would the goblins be happy on a world with nothing to fight? They are, after all, created for conflict. Even Redcloak does not object to endless war. He objects to endless war that is observably unfair to his side.

I don't know about nothing to fight, but a lot of Redcloak's talk in 1208 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1208.html) revolved around the idea that goblins were kill-on-sight in civilized society. While I don't think Redcloak is above a little hypocrisy there, I do think a safe homeland is something the goblins want, and another world with access limited to five rifts would give a very defensible one. Would-be goblin adventurers could take the rifts back to the this world and fight bandits or unintelligent monsters or something.

Also, to dive sideways into another argument, I don't think the goblins could hold Azure City without the threat of Xykon and Redcloak, and I think both will die by the end of the comic. Pretty much every major character death in OotS is a result of that character being forced into a confrontation with their own failings (Rich wrote a really interesting piece on this somewhere, but I don't remember where it is) and the comic has spent a lot of time on Redcloak's failings and self-delusions. In particular, I feel that 1262 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1262.html) very heavily foreshadowed Redcloak coming up short.

[Edea]

I mean, I thought the Snarl itself made that planet. In fact that planet probably IS the Snarl, or at least a large chunk of its essence; that's just what it looks like when it's sleeping. It's literally made of world-threads, so when it gets tired of thrashing against its prison and goes dormant, it probably collapses back into the material form of a planet. It probably experiments with creating geologic structures and such on itself whenever it dreams or gets bored.

[hroþila]

Would the goblins be happy on a world with nothing to fight? They are, after all, created for conflict. Even Redcloak does not object to endless war. He objects to endless war that is observably unfair to his side.
What on earth are you talking about?

[Bohandas]

I mean, I thought the Snarl itself made that planet. In fact that planet probably IS the Snarl, or at least a large chunk of its essence; that's just what it looks like when it's sleeping. It's literally made of world-threads, so when it gets tired of thrashing against its prison and goes dormant, it probably collapses back into the material form of a planet. It probably experiments with creating geologic structures and such on itself whenever it dreams or gets bored.

That's basically what I was thinking as well, although you've thought it out much further than I did.

(although I was also imagining it as possibly inhabited and the inhabitants counting as part of the snarl)

[spectralphoenix]

They've brought up the planet a couple times, and even the gods don't know about it. It must be important for something, they're not going to just seal up the rifts and forget about it.

[Edea]

This is really, -really- far out there, but I'm suspicious of the gods' plan to try and make four-color seals with this fourth 'purple' color that just happened to show up this time around in a single ascended god. I'm wondering if, over the aeons, the Snarl's absorbed so much divine energy that it's not the raw engine of destruction it was before, and that it now possesses sapience. It might be trying something by ascending a deity with its own power (with said deity, the Dark One, not being aware of it), which would then make this plan backfire in the most catastrophic manner imaginable.

[KorvinStarmast]

This is really, -really- far out there, but I'm suspicious of the gods' plan to try and make four-color seals with this fourth 'purple' color that just happened to show up this time around in a single ascended god. I'm wondering if, over the aeons, the Snarl's absorbed so much divine energy that it's not the raw engine of destruction it was before, and that it now possesses sapience. It might be trying something by ascending a deity with its own power (with said deity, the Dark One, not being aware of it), which would then make this plan backfire in the most catastrophic manner imaginable. heh, that would be hilarious.

They've brought up the planet a couple times, and even the gods don't know about it. It must be important for something, they're not going to just seal up the rifts and forget about it. The planet in the rifts matters, yes.

[RatElemental]

It matters, but I just can't stomach "No peace is ever brokered, the goblins just bugger off to live somewhere else so the 'civilized' races won't have to deal with them anymore" as a resolution to the whole goblin's have it bad plot.

[brian 333]

It matters, but I just can't stomach "No peace is ever brokered, the goblins just bugger off to live somewhere else so the 'civilized' races won't have to deal with them anymore" as a resolution to the whole goblin's have it bad plot.

For what it's worth, I do not think that will be its resolution. Thor and TDO have to come to some sort of accommodations, but it will not be a 'happily ever after' peace. TDO wants and needs battle. Thor also needs battle. This is how their worshippers gain power, which in turn gives them power.

What TDO wants is equality, not peace. He wants the battle to be against even odds, rather than a pro football squad stomping a grade-school team over and over. Giving the goblins the planet in the rift does nothing for TDO unless the followers of the Good deities go with them. And if all of the goblins go into the rift, who are the followers of the Good gods going to fight? (I know, other monsters, but it's an analogy!)

I think either everyone will go to the Riftworld™ or some representative sample from each interested deity's followers will, but no group will have preference in the process. Then The Gods will
A: destroy the world and leave it destroyed.
B: destroy the world and build a new one.
C: seal the rifts and allow the original world to keep on going.

Note that only in Option A will the current gods matter in the Riftworld. Options B and C leave them locked out. Option B is best for Hel, option C is worst for Hel, option A gives her the opportunity to weasel out of the bet if she thinks of it in time.

[KorvinStarmast]

It matters, but I just can't stomach "No peace is ever brokered, the goblins just bugger off to live somewhere else so the 'civilized' races won't have to deal with them anymore" as a resolution to the whole goblin's have it bad plot. The idea that Rich would write that confuses me, given what he's offered up to date.
The planet in the rift matters for a number of reasons, some of which have been explicitly foreshadowed.

1. Roy's remark "we don't know what's going on" when they see the world in the rift (BRitF)
2. Vaarsuvius similar remark in a different scene, based on Blackwing's vision. (DStP, ending)
3. Belkar's point on "someone's been pulling everyone's chain" (My take is that he's referring to the author) when the world in the rift is seen. (BRitF)
4. Laurin's lack of discovery of life forms when she probes the rift/world. (BRitF)
5. Who and what the Snarl has become is going to be a big reveal, which the planet is tied to, since it coexists with the Snarl inside the rift. (And my guess is that it is the Snarl's own creation).
6. TDO is in over his head and doesn't know it, as regards how he intends to use the Snarl. (Xykon even moreso).
7. The Gods and the IFCC don't appear to know about, or to know much about, that world inside the rift. When they get their "reveal" it will throw a curveball into their plans and understandings. That reveal will make some of Odin's on-screen ramblings (UD) begin to make sense.

And lastly: Jirix is already the leader of Azure City/Gobbotopia. As noted in-comic has established relations/trade deals with a number of other nations. Gobbotopia seems to me to be a place that is going to stick around in some form; the Azurites get to start from scratch (see GDGU).

If there were to be a story arc of the Azurites sailing across the sea to reclaim their old city from the Goblins, that would be another book/story/quest of its own that hardly needs to Order of the Stick to
make happen.
And I am not sure that Rich is going to write that. Betting against..

[spectralphoenix]

Presumably such a transfer would be the result of the peace negotiations. Going back to 1209 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1209.html), both Durkon and Redcloak brought up some problems with goblins keeping Azure City. Durkon had some moral objections to the conquest and suggested the goblins couldn't utilize the land effectively without their slaves, and Redcloak suggested that the other races would retake the city as soon as the balance of power changed. The goblins receiving the planet in the rift addresses all of that.

The other option as I see it is for something to force everyone to the planet in the rift, resulting in a new division of wealth from the ground up.

I'm not really a fan of "the Azurites just bugger off so the goblins can loot their homes in peace" as a solution. I mean, I guess it's possible as long as it was limited to a panel showing the goblins happy in their new city and the Azurites happy on the island. But I don't see Hinjo actually telling his people "Your city and belongings all belong to the invaders now, no, you can't take it back, and don't ask me why. Secret god stuff, a dwarf told me."

[brian 333]

For what it's worth, I do not think that will be its resolution. Thor and TDO have to come to some sort of accommodations, but it will not be a 'happily ever after' peace. TDO wants and needs battle. Thor also needs battle. This is how their worshippers gain power, which in turn gives them power.

What TDO wants is equality, not peace. He wants the battle to be against even odds, rather than a pro football squad stomping a grade-school team over and over. Giving the goblins the planet in the rift does nothing for TDO unless the followers of the Good deities go with them. And if all of the goblins go into the rift, who are the followers of the Good gods going to fight? (I know, other monsters, but it's an analogy!)

I think either everyone will go to the Riftworld™ or some representative sample from each interested deity's followers will, but no group will have preference in the process. Then The Gods will
A: destroy the world and leave it destroyed.
B: destroy the world and build a new one.
C: seal the rifts and allow the original world to keep on going.

Note that only in Option A will the current gods matter in the Riftworld. Options B and C leave them locked out. Option B is best for Hel, option C is worst for Hel, option A gives her the opportunity to weasel out of the bet if she thinks of it in time.


Presumably such a transfer would be the result of the peace negotiations. Going back to 1209 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1209.html), both Durkon and Redcloak brought up some problems with goblins keeping Azure City. Durkon had some moral objections to the conquest and suggested the goblins couldn't utilize the land effectively without their slaves, and Redcloak suggested that the other races would retake the city as soon as the balance of power changed. The goblins receiving the planet in the rift addresses all of that.

The other option as I see it is for something to force everyone to the planet in the rift, resulting in a new division of wealth from the ground up.

I'm not really a fan of "the Azurites just bugger off so the goblins can loot their homes in peace" as a solution. I mean, I guess it's possible as long as it was limited to a panel showing the goblins happy in their new city and the Azurites happy on the island. But I don't see Hinjo actually telling his people "Your city and belongings all belong to the invaders now, no, you can't take it back, and don't ask me why. Secret god stuff, a dwarf told me."


The other option as I see it is for something to force everyone to the planet in the rift, resulting in a new division of wealth from the ground up.


I think either everyone will go to the Riftworld™ or some representative sample from each interested deity's followers will, but no group will have preference in the process. Then The Gods will
A: destroy the world and leave it destroyed.

A would refer to OotSworld, which would leave the planet in the rift as the only remaining planet available. In settling it a new deal would need to be made. All of the gods would have to have their say, and I'm thinking The Snarl gets a veto.

My personal preference is C:


C: seal the rifts and allow the original world to keep on going.

In this scenario, those who wish to do so could go to Riftworld©, then the rifts are sealed, sealing out the gods. A new pantheon or pantheons would have to be created either directly (most likely by The Snarl,) or via ascension, otherwise those within the Riftworld© would not have access to divine magic.

[Emberlily]

given that
-the protagonist of this comic has voiced in his own philosophy what the narrative agrees with, that the gods are their own deal and mortals have to live and work as independent beings not just following what the gods want (the exceptions being clerics and paladins, who are defined by serving gods and divine causes)
-we've seen goblinoids who only pay lip service to the dark one
-we've seen openly voiced and shown the characters and audience don't know all of the details, and
-the back half of the comic deals heavily with the plight of those who are considered monsters, who are individuals with their own lives and internality and needs

I find it odd to equate all goblinoids as Innately requiring warfare to be fulfilled, outside of what The Dark One personally needs. u could argue just as solidly that humans and elves were "created for combat" as goblins and hobgoblins, because of what we've seen of the purpose of making mortals. you can't even bring TDO into that since he wasn't even involved with creating any of this world

(I see people rush to try to, I suppose, tidy up(?) things with the goblins by simplifying everything into attachment w a god (there's a lot with fenrir too), and I don't understand it. it seems to run very counter to the way the story has shifted how it deals with goblins)


I also feel that goblins just effectively being exiled to a different world so there's no need to bother the PHB peoples would be disappointing, but I don't think the problem has anything to do with goblins having some sort of biological bloodlust quota

[brian 333]

I find it odd to equate all goblinoids as Innately requiring warfare to be fulfilled, outside of what The Dark One personally needs. u could argue just as solidly that humans and elves were "created for combat" as goblins and hobgoblins, because of what we've seen of the purpose of making mortals. you can't even bring TDO into that since he wasn't even involved with creating any of this world

(I see people rush to try to, I suppose, tidy up(?) things with the goblins by simplifying everything into attachment w a god (there's a lot with fenrir too), and I don't understand it. it seems to run very counter to the way the story has shifted how it deals with goblins)

I agree. My point in my previous statement was not that goblins specifically or TDO specifically needed conflict, but that all species (as opposed to individuals) and all deities need conflict. Thor needs it as much as TDO.

*Background Lion King theme*
From the elemental energy of alignment living things are created. They combat things and grow stronger and purer in one or two of these alignment energies until they die or are themselves slain by something which thereby grows stronger and purer in its alignment energy. On death this energy is processed in vast alignment-energy-harvesting factories, and the cream of this crop is used to sustain the gods.

Without conflict, the gods are screwed.



I also feel that goblins just effectively being exiled to a different world so there's no need to bother the PHB peoples would be disappointing, but I don't think the problem has anything to do with goblins having some sort of biological bloodlust quota

I absolutely agree. That's why I do not believe the Riftworld© will be used to 'solve' the 'goblin problem'.

The goblins were created by Fenrir for a zerg-rush strategy, but they appear no more bloodthirsty than Kubota or Tarquin.

[Emberlily]

I ah I suppose I misread your words there. thanks for the clarification. I don't necessarily agree that mortals of any sort need combat (even if they do need to level up, we've seen other, slower ways to do that with RP xp or study) since that's more a need of the gods. if the need to remake worlds goes away I'm not sure the mortals even need gods at all, personally

but even if the goblins needed to fight someone on the other planet, well, they have each other!