Ruminating on a Stamina System implementation

[Vogie]

I've been toying with a ttrpg system that jumps off of the general d20 roll-over, 3-action turns of Pathfinder 2e and into Elden Ring / Dark Souls franchise.

The main differences from a normal D&D-like would be that

Movement would be much smaller, as the focus would be taking on single larger targets instead of the traditional wargame simulator
You could save one action to gain an additional reaction
The monster acts in between each player's turns - for multiple monsters, they go by groups, but for a single boss monster it'll essentially have the same number of turns as there are players.

Most of the mechanics of the game are relatively easy to port over, but I'm struggling with an implementation of stamina that feels interesting and isn't just bookkeeping.

My idea is a pool of Stamina points, based largely on the general understanding of pools from the Cypher system - except there's just the one pool. It'll be the fuel, the heart of the fight.

Most actions and reactions cost stamina - attacks, casting spells or incantations, moving your entire speed, et cetera
There are Strong Attacks and Charged Spells, which require more stamina & actions for a larger payoff
Some actions are free, such as raising your shield, crouching/standing, drinking potions, anticipating or delaying an action for an additional reaction
Blocking attacks with a shield raised will reduce the damage, then split the remainder between your hit points and stamina
Without Stamina, you'd have very few actions available to you

Also, there are ways to generate stamina in combat -

Not moving your full speed (i.e. walking instead of Running/Rolling/Jumping) or not using your reaction would gain a small amount
Forgoing an action on your turn gains more
Forgoing 2 actions on your turn and your reaction gets it back the fastest (but would require you to be much safer, as you couldn't evade blows)
Using a Consumable Stamina Potion

Like in the Cypher system, the players are doing most of the rolling. The GM will be pressing them, largely rolling damage and changing their positioning, using an action-oriented monster template (from Matt Colville, Youtube RPG creator, MCDM Productions), allowing astute players to figure out how the monster can attack and responding appropriately, keeping with that Soulslike feel.

There are many more reactions available than in regular D&D-likes - jumping, crouching, moving, rolling, or even just an extra light attack. Keeping with the Soulslike feel, the monster damage will be broken into specific groups based on area of effect, each of which would be able to be countered by a specific reaction

Ground attacks avoided by jumping
Line attacks by sidestepping
Cleave attacks by crouching or rolling
AOE by getting out of the area
Direct attacks by Parrying or blocking
and the like.

In general, reactions take an additional stamina. This can be countered using the Anticipate action, which allows you to pick a reaction ahead of time - performed with face-down cards, the player can essentially "ready" a specific evasion reaction they think is about to occur. As mentioned before, the monsters will have essentially an programmatic list of attacks that they're executing, with the GM dealing with the positioning, facing and targeting - so, as the players fight, they can figure out the pattern, and then use Anticipate to eliminate the stamina costs of their evasions.

Of course, this also means that the normal understanding of death and defeat in a TTRPG aren't likely to be used - If everyone wipes, Everyone isn't going to go back to the beginning. Rather, upon a failure, you are exhausted, leaving that scenario and return later to do it again. This is keeping with the source material, but isn't without precedent - Gloomhaven, the GM-less, diceless TTRPG-esque boardgame has a similar setup on a total party kill, where everyone keeps the loot and experience gained and can restart at the beginning of just that scenario.

All of that out of the way, the actual problem - What is the best way to represent stamina in the actual-gaming sense?

Originally, it was a pool of just arbitrary points - tracked with a sliding line, number of tokens or chips, where each player just pulled them out and put them back in as they are in battle. It wouldn't make sense to be tracked using a pencil & paper, as it's constantly going up & down

Another option could be a dice pool - those little cubes of undersized d6s came to mind. But there's no reason for the pool to be dice without actually rolling the dice. When doing anything beyond moving, the amount of stamina dice is added to the amount rolled - amount of damage on a strong attack, amount of damage prevented by the evasion reaction, added damage on a riposte following a successful parry, and so on. My main worry with this is that the amount rolled won't be meaningful with the values being tossed around - it'll be great when a 4-6 are rolled and added to your own damage, but feel really weak when one rolls low during an evasion. The latter example also has a nonbo with the way the entire anticipate mechanic works - in the ideal scenario, you're trying to reduce the amount of stamina you use to continue fighting longer, and that a successful evade means you avoid all of the damage, not just a number based on things like armor modifiers and rolls.

While noodling with this, I also came across the d6-based symmetrical TTRPG Technoir. This game has a mechanic called "push dice" that are essentially passed back and forth between players and the GM. Essentially, 3 dice over and above your normal dice pool, but whenever they're used, the Push dice are then given to the GM for them to use against that player - the more you push your luck, the more the NPCs can push back. The problem with using this idea is that I'm not using a Success-counting dice pool type of game, and can't think of a reason why a GM would be handing Stamina Dice back to a player. I wouldn't be against it, explicitly, but it would need to pass a certain amount of flavor verisimilitude.

Please, let me know what you think - any ideas or replacements would be greatly appreciated

[titi]

I'm most curious about the stamina potion.
Is it a "use it and it's gone" like DnD potions ? Or does it recharges on a long rest like I'm imagining Estus does ?

[Vogie]

I'm most curious about the stamina potion.
Is it a "use it and it's gone" like DnD potions ? Or does it recharges on a long rest like I'm imagining Estus does ?

I had planned it as a recharging consumable precisely like that - this is largely because one of the things I dislike the most about D&D-likes is the inventory management and the "backpack full of health potions" that players can collect over time. My current idea is that each player would have a bandolier/belt with a limited number of objects, like the max 5 potions on a Path of Exile character. This way, each player has some options on how much of Health, Stamina, Mana/Focus, or Utility potions they have on them, but with a cap. However I'd also have options for ammunition, scrolls, and small backup weapons (like a knife). This way PCs aren't able to have a Costco in their back pocket, but are able to make meaningful choices on what they have immediate access to.

There would be some various options for the stamina potion - a single giant burst, a more extended release version that would be generating stamina over time, and then some blend of the two.

[MrStabby]

This is interesting.

I think its useful to be clear about your specific in-game objectives here. A mechanic for the sake of a mechanic doesn't add much (and to be clear, I don't think thats what you have).

My guess is that stamina is more dynamic than hit-points. It goes up and down more quicky whist also making sense as something to be recovered mor readiy than HP. As a vital resource in combat it opens up more avenues of attack and interaction?

With that in mind, I wouldn't use dice, at least not as something more than tokens. As a common resource, rolling them adds complexity and will slow the game down - which is kind of OK, however it needs to be worth it.

I wonder if you could hybridise the D&D system and Pthfander system of actions and use stamina to bridge the gap? You get one action, one bonus action, and one trivial action per turn. You may expend one stamina to upgrade a trivial action to a bonus action or a bonus action to an action. So a trivial acition might be a short move, the D&D 5e style object interaction or removing spell components from a pouch (if needing to get spell components is a trivial interaction, it means casting slightly limits mobility unless you care casting the smae spell on sequential turns). An action might be an attack, a dash or casting a spell or similar. A bonus action might be preparing to recieve a charge or some specific class abilities... you get the idea.

Possibly some class abilities then shift focus between these - so a frenzied barbarian that makes lots of attacks might be able to make a melee attack as a bonus action after a certain level. This lowers the stamina cost of attacking twice (no need to upgrade a bonus action to an action to make another attack) and furthermore could even make a third attack as with stamina, trival actions could be upgraded.

The idea would be to gently incentivise class appropriate playstyles without being rescripive. Monks could jump as a trivial action or grapple as a bonus acton (all at appropriate levels as part of class progression), clerics could mumble or sign blessings as a trivial action whereas a paladin might need to use a bonus action, assassins could poison weapons... progression is not only becoming better at something, but that thing becoming more effortless for you.





I like the idea that stamina is scarce, that you want to hold back and uneash the right attacks at just the right moment when there is an opening. I think the potential tactical richness of your system is great, but it would maybe mean that you might want to force some openings to explot. You might need a way in which one turn is not like the next, at least not defensively. As an illustration with the suggestion I made above (which isn't to say you should adopt it, but you might want to consider whatever the analogue would be for however you do end up managing stamina), you could maybe have a rule that you cannot use the same bonus action on two consecutive turns; then make a lot of defensive abilities use a bonus action. This might not force people to lower their defences, but to shift what they are doing - going from a shield up posture to block, to a more light-footed stance to dodge - with different relative weaknesses to different attacks and providing different openings for diffferent PCs to pur their stamina into to exploit.

Likewise on the defence, a shield spell might offer more robust protection than an illusiory misdirection for a mage, but might take samina to deflect the hit. Chosing the right spell or right stance or other defensive option would become a vital in-game skill to manage stamina effectively. In an ideal game, I would suggest you want a baance between cool characters with clear themes, and people needing to read the room and face the challenge in front of them. I thik your stamin system could be cool for letting people stll be able to do the things they need, bu at a high cost in stamina that they will quickly feel.

I am not sure I agree with samina potions though. Taking a thematically fun and mechanicaly justified limit and hand-waving it away seems to undermine it a lot. The joy of managing your stamina well is really only likely to come if you a can both fail to manage it well and there are consequences.

[Vogie]

I am not sure I agree with samina potions though. Taking a thematically fun and mechanicaly justified limit and hand-waving it away seems to undermine it a lot. The joy of managing your stamina well is really only likely to come if you a can both fail to manage it well and there are consequences.

That's a fair criticism - it's not something that's included in the source material, and, since I've abstractly locked the number of potions a player could hold, the justification of the stamina potion's existence would be balanced by the fact that there is one less potential health or mana potion available for that character. But, as you've noted, stamina is a thematically fun and mechanically justified, as would be any of the meaningful choices to increase the stats that directly effect the amount of stamina you have. Once I get actual playtesting feedback, the Stamina Potion may be on the chopping block.

[Amechra]

can't think of a reason why a GM would be handing Stamina Dice back to a player.

A so-simple-it-probably-won't-work solution: the GM can spend Stamina Dice to buff monster attacks (bonus damage, extra effects, etcetera), and then the player targeted gets those dice back after that attack succeeds or fails. You know, to represent how big attacks in action games tend to also be the best openings.

Another potential perspective on how to handle stamina-as-dice would be to look at how the GLOG handles dice-based spellcasting (https://coinsandscrolls.blogspot.com/2017/07/osr-condensed-spellcasting-rules.html). It's a surprisingly elegant little system. More to the point, someone wrote up a version of the Monk that uses a similar system over here (https://archons-court.blogspot.com/2021/06/flip-template-adept-glog-class.html), which might have something that you can loot.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Part of my brain loves the idea of stamina dice. I'm always a fan of taking abstract resources and turning them into something that's sort of tangibly meaningful. (I remember building my old 5e psionics rewrite around a similar idea). The implementation here actually reminds me a little bit of Exalted, where the one thing you can always do with your motes (mana) is spend them to directly add dice to your roll. There's some trickle as the fight goes on, but it's important not to burn too many motes too fast, because that can leave you defenseless later on if someone lines up a big shot and you don't have anything left to boost your defense roll.

To keep values small and linear without switching completely to a die pool system, you could have a mechanic where rolling an even number on a stamina die gives +2 to your total, and an odd number +1-- that means that each additional die is a reliable +1.5 to the result, allowing you to add on a decent number of dice without totally overshadowing the base values.

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Another Exalted-based idea that springs to mind is using your Stamina to determine turn order. Each round, you start at 20 (or whatever) and count down point by point, with enemies taking certain actions at certain initiative counts. If you gain or lose stamina before your turn comes up, you immediately shift up or down the initiative clock.

Such an approach means that tired characters are literally slower to react than fresher ones. And if stamina regeneration happens at the start of the round rather than the start of individual characters' turns, it also means that they've got to be more careful about spending whatever stamina they still have, because they'll have to make it stretch for longer than their fitter comrades.


To make something like this work, you'd need to have, like, a "combat clock." The players each stick a token on their current position on the clock, but the monsters initially have nothing. Instead, each time one acts, the GM puts a token on the current initiative count; on subsequent rounds, the players can easily see the rhythm they have to work with. Once a character takes their turn, you shift the token to the outer circle to denote that they've done so; the next round, everyone moves back to the inner circle once they act.

(So, like, when a monster token is first placed, it's a d6 showing a six. Each subsequent round, a random monster token is flipped to another number that represents which of the five attack types it's about to use).

It keeps some of the Dark Souls feel of having to learn a monster's rhythm, but it also takes a large portion of the task out of their hands--which is probably good, considering the slower pace and more chaotic environment of a gaming table as opposed to a video game. And the players would still have to keep track of what attack the enemy is going to use on a given turn, though I like the idea of adding more information to the clock as the fight goes on.

It also adds a strong dose of chaos to the fight, as characters (and potentially monster actions) shift up and down the turn order. Which, in turn, only increases the tactical choices.


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That being said, I think there's also an argument in favor of keeping Stamina as a simple number on your sheet and not trying to do anything fancy with it. Mana points (which is essentially what you have) are a concept most players intuitively understand, and it sounds like this is going to already be a system where there's going to be a lot to pay attention to.

[Vogie]

Another potential perspective on how to handle stamina-as-dice would be to look at how the GLOG handles dice-based spellcasting (https://coinsandscrolls.blogspot.com/2017/07/osr-condensed-spellcasting-rules.html). It's a surprisingly elegant little system. More to the point, someone wrote up a version of the Monk that uses a similar system over here (https://archons-court.blogspot.com/2021/06/flip-template-adept-glog-class.html), which might have something that you can loot.

That sounds incredibly interesting. I will definitely look more into that system. I don't know if it'll fit for this specifically, but maybe for the Focus Points/Mana system.



To keep values small and linear without switching completely to a die pool system, you could have a mechanic where rolling an even number on a stamina die gives +2 to your total, and an odd number +1-- that means that each additional die is a reliable +1.5 to the result, allowing you to add on a decent number of dice without totally overshadowing the base values.

An excellent way to thread the needle. Thanks.



To make something like this work, you'd need to have, like, a "combat clock." The players each stick a token on their current position on the clock, but the monsters initially have nothing. Instead, each time one acts, the GM puts a token on the current initiative count; on subsequent rounds, the players can easily see the rhythm they have to work with. Once a character takes their turn, you shift the token to the outer circle to denote that they've done so; the next round, everyone moves back to the inner circle once they act.

(So, like, when a monster token is first placed, it's a d6 showing a six. Each subsequent round, a random monster token is flipped to another number that represents which of the five attack types it's about to use).

It keeps some of the Dark Souls feel of having to learn a monster's rhythm, but it also takes a large portion of the task out of their hands--which is probably good, considering the slower pace and more chaotic environment of a gaming table as opposed to a video game. And the players would still have to keep track of what attack the enemy is going to use on a given turn, though I like the idea of adding more information to the clock as the fight goes on.

It also adds a strong dose of chaos to the fight, as characters (and potentially monster actions) shift up and down the turn order. Which, in turn, only increases the tactical choices.


I like lots of these things. I don't know if I'm sold on moving the characters around in the initiative clock, just because there's a huge issue with accidentally skipping turns. However, i would love to see a good execution of a randomly generated combat sequence generator. Would you roll two/three dice and decide which of them to use? If the Monster Maneuvers are being rolled openly at the beginning of the round, does that defeat the purposes of learning/anticipating the monster moves?

[MrStabby]

Possibly an odd inspiration fore a dice-pool system, but one that is for me quite fun was the Wargame Warhammer - at least 8th edition, and its spellcasting element. And honestly, not having rally played any dice-pool games as RPGs I have no idea how they compare/work.

You get, usually, a big pool of dice to cast spells and a small pool of dice to dispell them. You chose a spell, chose a number of dice to roll (up to 6) and roll them (if you meet the minimum required for casting the spell then its cast, else it fails) then your opponent tries to dispell wih a selected number of dice from their pool. Some bonuses are added. The different sizes of pool mean you can usually force something through though your opponent has a strong say in what gets through. Each spell can only be cast once.

This could be interesting if you were happy to have a very rich, but quite slow system and one where landing an attack is a big deal.

Replace attack as a general thing with maybe some specific attacks - a blow to the head, a shove, a trip etc. and each of these you can expend stamina on. Then there is stamina to spend on defence. Sometimes you might want to conserve stamina and take the hits, sometimes you want to just stay safe. You could have bonuses say, +2 to preventing abilities that knock you over or similar such categories - then opening up questions about saving stamina for things better able to prevent (or the opposite!).

Its upsides are very much its downsides as well. Choices about resource usage obvously matter, the right allocation is frequently non-obvious, the potentially huge assmmetry between different attacks/spells is such that timing and ordering matters. You would get a slow, thoughtful but tactically rich game, but requires doing things like making a stab and a slash different.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I like lots of these things. I don't know if I'm sold on moving the characters around in the initiative clock, just because there's a huge issue with accidentally skipping turns. However, i would love to see a good execution of a randomly generated combat sequence generator. Would you roll two/three dice and decide which of them to use? If the Monster Maneuvers are being rolled openly at the beginning of the round, does that defeat the purposes of learning/anticipating the monster moves?
Very fair. I got so excited with the idea that I forgot how quickly I abandoned RAW initiative when I was running Exalted. IIRC, my compromise was to re-calculate turn order at the beginning of each round.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by a randomly generated monster combat sequence, though. From your original post, I got the impression that a monster template would look something like:

<statblock>

Attack Sequence (for a 4-person party):

Ini 3: Terrified Roar (Type 4--AoE)
Ini 6: Earth-Shaking Stomp (Type 1-- Ground Attack)
Ini 12: Club Slam (Type 5--Direct Attack)
Ini 15: Club Sweep (Type 3--Cleave Attack)


The first round, you'd start with a blank combat clock, and place a d6 each time the monster acts, with the "6" side up. The second round, when you reach (say) Ini 6, you'd flip the d6 to show a "1", representing a Type 1 attack. The third round, when you'd reach (say) Ini 3, you'd flip that d6 to a "4," representing a Type 4 attack.

This would continue until the players either kill the monster, or all of its attack types are revealed. The idea is that you're sort of gamifying the "learning the pattern" aspect of a Soulslike. Even if they're overwhelmed or distracted, every player at the table will eventually know what to expect when, but there are enough turns of incomplete information that an on-the-ball player can enjoy a few rounds of knowing something the others don't.

[aimlessPolymath]

Part of my brain loves the idea of stamina dice. I'm always a fan of taking abstract resources and turning them into something that's sort of tangibly meaningful. (I remember building my old 5e psionics rewrite around a similar idea). The implementation here actually reminds me a little bit of Exalted, where the one thing you can always do with your motes (mana) is spend them to directly add dice to your roll. There's some trickle as the fight goes on, but it's important not to burn too many motes too fast, because that can leave you defenseless later on if someone lines up a big shot and you don't have anything left to boost your defense roll.

To keep values small and linear without switching completely to a die pool system, you could have a mechanic where rolling an even number on a stamina die gives +2 to your total, and an odd number +1-- that means that each additional die is a reliable +1.5 to the result, allowing you to add on a decent number of dice without totally overshadowing the base values.


A variant here that might play well with relatively unbalanced numbers of dice (i.e. one party in the battle has 10, one has 2) would be to have you roll your Stamina dice all together, then take the largest value rolled- there's rapid diminishing returns beyond the first or second dice spent, but the total benefit is capped at the max of the die (usually 6), so the baseline numerical values still have value.