What is a Monk? Power, Agility, and Soul/Magic. Pick 2.

[SangoProduction]

When you think of the concept of "Monk," what really comes first to mind for that concept? What is the emphasis?

For me, my surface level concept of a monk is one which emphasizes power and agility - able to deftly dodge a sword before launching the enemy into the air with a kick. But I might have watched a few too many Jackie Chan films in my youth.

As for you?

[Millstone85]

I believe the monk, as a D&D class, is indeed based on those Jackie Chan films and similar media.

If allowed by the system, I would also associate the monk with internal life force channeled into otherwise impossible physical feats such as running on water.

So, I guess agility and soul/magic.

[Gruftzwerg]

a monk is one which emphasizes power and agility
...
As for you?

Imho your description lacks the mental aspect: "mind over matter/body". Because without that imho you would be sole a martial artist != monk

Qi Gong = hardening your mind and body

And depending on how much fantasy you want to add to the monk topic, a (psionic;divine; or arcane) gish like character comes to my mind.

My reference point here is The Chinese Ghost Story (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0dpajscuPo), just have a look at the daoist (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5kmkYMqfYY) and tell me that he ain't some kind of swordsage/bard/Spelldancer/Sacred Exorcist gish^^

Also remind you of the Jet-Li Swordsman movies. They also have more magical stuff going on.

The use of potions and scrolls (especially explosive runes) are very common.

Imho monk sole refers to some kind of religious connection. But it doesn't mean if your profession is a Cloistered Cleric, a martial artist , or if you are a master of mystical arts (psionic, divine, arcane). It's just that we somehow got used to the therm as "mundane monk", but this is just artificially narrowing down what it imho really covers in real life mythology (I don't wanna dive to much into real life religions here due to forum rules. Just look up Taoist/Daoist anime or mythology if you like.. ).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Well, when I think "monk," it involves guys with poorly-made robes and badly-shaven heads sitting in a tower and scribing stuff by candlelight.

When I think "mystical martial artist," I think Dragon Ball. Or maybe Jet Li and wuxia.

[Prime32]

What's the difference between a monk and a fighter who specialises in unarmed strikes? If it's "well only monks can use unarmed strikes effectively" then what's the difference between a monk 20 and a monk 1/fighter 19?

For a "pure" monk you're better off focusing on the mystical side of things - refining the body and soul into something superhuman, and gaining powers like flight and short-range teleportation like a Taoist immortal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xian_(Taoism)). Maybe attacks which bypass defences, the ability to see spirits and the true forms of things, etc. There's a set list of abilities granted to Divine Rank 0 gods, so you could have them slowly transform into one over the course of their progression.



Maximum hit points per HD
Speed 60ft
Usually a 20+ HD Outsider with an alignment subtype and multiple class levels
Deflection bonus to AC equal to Charisma modifier
Attacks strike as an alignment (due to their alignment subtype)
If they have at least 20 Outsider HD, natural armor becomes +13
For every 20 ranks in a skill, their synergy bonuses increase by +2
Immune to polymorph, petrification, energy drain, ability damage/drain, mind-affecting effects, except from a deity of equal or higher rank
When they reach epic levels, their attack bonus and saves grow faster than normal
DR 10/epic
Spell resistance 32
FIre resistance 5
Do not age, nor need to eat, drink or sleep

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm




As above, plus

+1 divine rank bonus to AC, spell resistance, fire resistance, and on all rolls and checks
+1 divine rank bonus to its spell resistance and fire resistance
Rolls of natural 1 are never an automatic failure
Immune to disease, poison, stunning, sleep, paralysis, death effects and disintegration, except from a deity of equal or higher rank
Immune to acid, cold, electricity, and death from massive damage
DR increases to 15/epic
Gain three domains; use their granted powers as a 1st level cleric, and can cast their spells as SLAs at will (CL 11th)
Greater teleport SLA at will (self only, CL 20th)
Any special senses extend to 1 mile (does not grant X-ray vision)
Understands all languages
Can sense whenever an event is occuring that relates to their portfolio and involves 1,000+ people, as well as its location
Can scry on up to two places within 1 mile of its holy sites or likenesses, or on its worshippers; this functions across planes, does not create a scrying sensor and cannot be blocked except by deities of equal or higher rank. Can also communicate with up to two beings in this range - either telepathically, audibly or via strange omens
Can also scry on any being within 1 mile of itself or its worshippers, or a location where an event significant to its portfolio happened, or on anyone who spoke its name or title in the last hour
Can speak directly to its worshippers and to any being within 1 mile of itself or its holy sites or likenesses,
Can create magic items of up to 4,500gp as if it had the relevant item creation feat, as long as they relate to its portfolio; if it already has the feat then costs and creation time are halved
Can grant spells from its domains and the cleric and ranger list, as well as the druid or ranger lists if can already access them; can cast these spells spontaneously using divine spell slots
2/round can perform any action related to its portfolio as a free action, as long as it has a DC of 15 or lower
Divine aura 10ft can fascinate, frighten, or buff/debuff creatures
If you have levels in wizard or sorcerer, can designate a creature "of a given kind" as a second familiar as long as it remains within 1 mile; can be changed at will
Own a godly realm of 100ft radius, on either the Material Plane or an Outer Plane, where it has limited control over temperature, scents and sounds
Two salient divine abilities

[Darg]

When you think of the concept of "Monk," what really comes first to mind for that concept? What is the emphasis?

For me, my surface level concept of a monk is one which emphasizes power and agility - able to deftly dodge a sword before launching the enemy into the air with a kick. But I might have watched a few too many Jackie Chan films in my youth.

As for you?

The primary theme is spirituality. The concept of warrior monk is the use of martial arts to further hone and focus your dedication to your journey of enlightenment. The original inspiration for the D&D style monk comes from media portrayals inspired by myths about chinese warrior monks. Which are in fact based on true seemingly superhuman feats enabled by brutal life long training.

When I think of the D&D monk I think of this spiritual dedication to honing their mind and body to reach an enlightened state (perfect self). If we base it off of the shao lin monks, they brutalize their bodies to alter its structure to improve tolerance to pain and trauma and make it a more effective weapon. They also train in a variety of martial styles and the use of hand to armed techniques. In my mind, their AC bonus is more a manifestation of their extremely varied and structured combat training allowing them to use their mind and trained reflexes to "know" how an opponent is going to attack; which could be perceived as supernatural reflexes by those with more limited or nonexistent martial training.

As a monk gains levels, they get closer to this enlightenment which leads into the more mystical aspects of spirituality and more superhuman or supernatural capability inspired by the media portrayals of the myths.

Personally, I think the epic DCs for balance were made way, way too high. I think it should go up by 10 per table row instead with a monk gaining a +1 per class level to the roll considering the obvious origins of the epic table options. This would put the monk at exactly where I think it should be with this skill: fantastically excellent with investment and much more capable with less.

[lylsyly]

Why not all 3? At our table we started using the PF monk because it's slightly better. Gave it d10 HD Gave it Paladin Spell Casting with a twist. A spontaneous fixed list caster with all the 0-4 cure spells, buffing spells, and some add ons like the Rangers Swift Haste, entangle, plant and animal growth, heroes feast, a few others.

[Biggus]

When they reach epic levels, their attack bonus and saves grow faster than normal

Do they? Where does it say that?


One salient divine ability

Two actually:


a deity has one salient divine ability for each divine rank the deity has, plus additional salient divine abilities reflecting its status: Demigods receive one bonus ability, lesser deities receive two bonus abilities, intermediate deities receive three, and greater deities receive five.


The primary theme is spirituality. The concept of warrior monk is the use of martial arts to further hone and focus your dedication to your journey of enlightenment. The original inspiration for the D&D style monk comes from media portrayals inspired by myths about chinese warrior monks. Which are in fact based on true seemingly superhuman feats enabled by brutal life long training.

When I think of the D&D monk I think of this spiritual dedication to honing their mind and body to reach an enlightened state (perfect self). If we base it off of the shao lin monks, they brutalize their bodies to alter its structure to improve tolerance to pain and trauma and make it a more effective weapon.


This is how I think of it: enlightenment is the ultimate goal of the Monk, to bring the mind, body and soul into one unified whole, and their mastery of ki is the measure of how far they've succeeded at that goal.

[Telonius]

"Unarmored, unarmed or using special Monk weapons" is pretty close to the core of the concept for me. Speed and stunning are things it should be able to do. Also expert in tripping or disarming.

[SangoProduction]

Why not all 3? At our table we started using the PF monk because it's slightly better. Gave it d10 HD Gave it Paladin Spell Casting with a twist. A spontaneous fixed list caster with all the 0-4 cure spells, buffing spells, and some add ons like the Rangers Swift Haste, entangle, plant and animal growth, heroes feast, a few others.

Having all 3 is one thing. Having no emphasis and focus leave you with... well, something better than the actual monk class, but it's not truly something to latch your teeth into.

[Tzardok]

What is a monk? A miserable pile of ki-tricks! :smalltongue:

IMO, the ki stuff is the thing that differentiates the monk from other warriors, but it's not the "forground", if that makes sense. The monk should be powerful and agile, but it's the "soul" that makes him powerful and agile. So point 3 exists to support points 1and 2.
If that argumentation isn't allowed, I'd go with Power and Soul for the monk and Agility and Soul for the ninja.

[pabelfly]

So there are one, or possibly two fiction series that are reportedly the origins of the Monk class. The first is the "Kung Fu" (1972) TV series, which is about a Shaolin priest and martial arts expert that goes around Old West America, solving all sorts of problems. The second that might be a second origin point is an early seventies pulp series called "The Destroyer", in which a former Newark cop gets trained to solve the government's problems as an outside-the-law figure, which includes martial arts training from a master assassin who might be an incarnation of the Goddess Shiva.

From what I can see (I'm reading basic wiki articles and haven't watched the actual shows) all three aspects are crucial. There's feats of strength, agility (and also endurance) beyond that of a normal human, but all of this is achieved with an understanding of eastern mysticism.

Now, to actually answer the question, if I had to limit myself as per the thread's concept, I'd go mysticism and agility, while also wishing for strength and endurance.

[Bohandas]

When you think of the concept of "Monk," what really comes first to mind for that concept?

Definitely not anything resembling the D&D class!

in descending order:

1.) Friar Tuck
2.) Christian monastic orders in general
3.) realistic buddhist monasticism as depicted in Seven Years In Tibet
4.) The characters from Jourbey to the West out of which, in D&D terms, Sanzang who was the only one who was a proper monk* who would have been an expert, the fish man and the pig man would have been fighters or one of the Book of Nine Swords classes, and Sun Wukong would have been some BS tristalt druid//rogue//swordsage


*the other characters were required to become Sanzang's disciples because of wacky sentencing, akin to the episode of Seinfeld where they were trying to pitch the show about the guy who gets sentenced to be the other guy's butler after t-boning his car

[Quertus]

Eh, to me, a Monk is… Agility. Although even that isn’t strictly necessary: a fat guy who can’t dodge, but who still knocks swords aside with his bare hands could be a Monk.

What a Monk definitely needs is Health. And I don’t mean “Hit Points”, I mean “80 years old and still in their prime”, hole in their environment suit and they still (probably) don’t catch the plague, bit by a zombie, and they rip/burn out the infection before it spreads.

Also, mental health. Good Will save, sure, but also unflappable. Things like “don’t gain / quickly recovers Insanity from encountering Cthulhu monsters”, “able to handle the concept of a multiverse”, “able to accept Shepherd Book / Brother Malcolm into the flock without blinking”, etc.

And I’d like to see things like a really high rate of attacks, rider effects (prone, stunned, (temporary) limb loss, stat drain, “poke you in the eyes”, disarm, pick pockets, etc), reactions (you attacked -> you’re prone), and even the ability to change the core gameplay loop (say, forces enemy action declaration to set his number of reactions, or can sacrifice attacks from the next round in order to make additional reactions this round).

Strength? Magic? Nah, both are unnecessary to my concept of a Monk. Even Agility is only usually true.

[rel]

When I think of a D&D monk, I think of a largely ineffectual character trying and failing to be Kenshiro.

[Crake]

Definitely not anything resembling the D&D class!

in descending order:

1.) Friar Tuck
2.) Christian monastic orders in general
3.) realistic buddhist monasticism as depicted in Seven Years In Tibet
4.) The characters from Jourbey to the West out of which, in D&D terms, Sanzang who was the only one who was a proper monk* who would have been an expert, the fish man and the pig man would have been fighters or one of the Book of Nine Swords classes, and Sun Wukong would have been some BS tristalt druid//rogue//swordsage


*the other characters were required to become Sanzang's disciples because of wacky sentencing, akin to the episode of Seinfeld where they were trying to pitch the show about the guy who gets sentenced to be the other guy's butler after t-boning his car

Could have summed this up as: Wololo


Imho your description lacks the mental aspect: "mind over matter/body". Because without that imho you would be sole a martial artist != monk

I believe that was intended to be covered by the "soul/magic" category.

[Gruftzwerg]

I believe that was intended to be covered by the "soul/magic" category.

While I get what you and assumably SangoP. means, I would argue that the base "trinity" here is "Body, Mind & Soul!"

As far as I know, Mind and Soul are not the same thing in eastern philosophy.

You train you mind to become more wise and increase your willpower

But you train your Soul (aka as Heart) to either become a good guy or to become a selfish ***.

That is at least what I remember from what my Tai Chi master always told us. Thus I don't see them as the same/interchangeable here..

[Prime32]

This is how I think of it: enlightenment is the ultimate goal of the Monk, to bring the mind, body and soul into one unified whole, and their mastery of ki is the measure of how far they've succeeded at that goal.
One potential concept for this kind of "holistic" monk: non-standard ability scores.

After a certain point a monk no longer has a Strength or Wisdom score (and is immune to effects which target them), instead gaining a "Valor" score which is used for both purposes. Likewise they merge Dexterity and Intelligence into "Acumen" and Constitution and Charisma into "Tenacity".

[Ramza00]

The way I see it is eras, and eras are larger than this text.

Bruce Lee died in 1973, and before that the Genre but also this specific actor was rising in popularity both in the US (where it was imported) and other places such as Hong Kong which exported the product. Lee’s main movie that caught American’s eye and made this culture aware of the Genre was 1971s Big Boss (also known as Fists of Fury). Lee previously was in the 1960s Green Hornet movie but that is not really a Kung Fu thing. Lee did 5 movies after Big Boss

Lee died in 1973 and a week later Enter the Dragon was released. This made about $400 million in 1970s money so roughly 2 billion in modern 2020s money. Aka Avatar and Avengers type amounts.

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Also in 1973 there was a Hong Kong recession and he genre / era transformed. There was still Kung Fu movies but we see more comedies.

Jackie Chan was active in the 1960s but he was not a leading character till 1976, and his first hit as a lead was Drunken Master in 1978. I say there is now an era shift where it is still the same semi related genre but we see it differently.

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Not that it matters but the first edition monk class was introduced in 1975. Thus some monks are Bruce Lee, others are Jackie Chan, and others are people I did not mention for Brevity :smallsmile: