AMF and Wildshape-like abilities

[Paragon]

Hey'all,

Today we'll be looking at the interactions of the Anti-Magic Field spell and the different ways to magically change form (Wildshape, Polymorph, Alternate Form and the likes).

The question I have is : What happens when a magically shaped creature hits an enemy who stand at the border of an AMF ?

I found some useful insights but nothing that I consider strictly RAW.

1.
An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it If you see a natural weapon like a claw as a magical effect brought into the field, then it would disappear. And it is an ongoing magical effect and not merely the result of one since the ability is Su and has a duration.

If this interpretation wins, a whole other can of worms open : how do you picture this ?

a/ The claw of the Wildshaped creature turns back into a hand, making it an unarmed strike, while the rest of the body remains Wildshaped ? What about reach natural weapons like tentacles ?
b/ A magical effect being cancel means there is nothing actually hitting the target in the AMF ?
c/ Yet another messy way of handling this that hasn't cross my mind ?

2.
A normal creature can enter the area This is probably not defined in D&D but is a shaped creature considered a normal one ? I doubt it very much so maybe this interpretation prevents a shaped creature from entering the field ? Sounds far fetched to me.

3. Some people seem to think that you need to be entirely inside an AMF for it to affect you but this line implies otherwise
Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field

Fun finding, a warforged polymorphed into another construct gets to avoid the effects of the AMF entirely according to this
The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting some shenanigans are opened there

What are your thoughts on the matter Playground ?

[loky1109]

You don't enter another square when attack. dixi. You're still in your non-AMF square and AMF doesn't make anything for you.

Or we should talk about another AoE effects. Do you get damage when attack somebody in the fireball area in the moment when it explodes?

[MonochromeTiger]

Hey'all,

Today we'll be looking at the interactions of the Anti-Magic Field spell and the different ways to magically change form (Wildshape, Polymorph, Alternate Form and the likes).

The question I have is : What happens when a magically shaped creature hits an enemy who stand at the border of an AMF ?

They hit their enemy. That's it. You don't move into the enemy's space to attack them unless your Size Category is so low that your reach requires you to share a space. As such you never enter the Anti-Magic Zone by just attacking someone who's in the outermost parts of it unless you actually go inside to reach melee range.



a/ The claw of the Wildshaped creature turns back into a hand, making it an unarmed strike, while the rest of the body remains Wildshaped ? What about reach natural weapons like tentacles ?
Again, you either enter into the Anti-Magic Zone or you're outside of it. If your space is not within its confines but your enemy is within your reach then RAW is you aren't in it. They didn't make a contingency for "what if your reach is only that far because you've got a spell making you stretchy."



2. This is probably not defined in D&D but is a shaped creature considered a normal one ?

No. The caster is still considered the caster but using a magic or supernatural effect to take the form being used, as such the form would be canceled out while in the Anti-Magic Zone. "normal creature" is referring to one with no magical effects or alteration, its base form without anything transforming or disguising it. A Dog is a Dog, a Cat is a Cat, and a Wizard is a Wizard; put them in an Anti-Magic Zone and they're still those things but now they're those things without access to magical abilities. Summoned creatures on the other hand are a different matter.


3. Some people seem to think that you need to be entirely inside an AMF for it to affect you but this line implies otherwise

Again, this is based on the space you occupy not on if you can reach inside an Anti-Magic Zone. So if you take up a 10x10 square and a single 5x5 square of that is inside the Anti-Magic Zone then the parts inside that 5x5 space are affected. The same is not true if your entire 10x10 space is outside of it but your reach extends in.


Fun finding, a warforged polymorphed into another construct gets to avoid the effects of the AMF entirely according to this some shenanigans are opened there

A Warforged polymorphed into another Construct is still a Warforged. The transformation is the magical effect that the Anti-Magic Zone cancels out, not the magic animating whatever the Warforged takes the form of. So no, the Warforged doesn't ignore the Anti-Magic Zone, it doesn't get to keep casting spells or even stay in the form it used, it returns to being a Warforged. The only thing that it ignores is the potential for the Anti-Magic Zone de-animating it by removing the magic "imbued in it on its creation."

Technically if you want to exploit that wording you'd have to go as far as having the Warforged be made with whatever spell you're trying to use, and it still wouldn't be able to use that spell on anything it would just have its effect. And honestly if you're getting that far into weird niche abuses of RAW without your DM slapping you down then you could still get around the issue with, again, knowing that your reach extending into an Anti-Magic Zone isn't you entering it.


What are your thoughts on the matter Playground ?

If it's a thought exercise then it either could've used a bit more work or less reliance on RAW. Overreliance on RAW will eventually get you contradictory information and turn it into people just picking and choosing whatever they want by cherrypicking increasingly flimsy interpretations of the wording over taking the rule as a whole; even with RAW context matters.

If it's something for a game then just ask whoever is DMing because honestly they probably wouldn't care less what we say, they're going to go with their conclusion. If you're trying to argue it with a DM then that's just a red flag on communication where you should work it out out of game anyway.

[Crake]

Lot of people here with very strange binary logic. Is it really that hard to accept that you can be partly inside an amf, and have your magic be suppressed piecemeal? If you swing a magical sword at someone inside an AMF, its treated as a nonmagical attack, regardless of the swords enchantments.

The FAQ has a weird stance on this though, where the opposite does not appear to be the case, it states that both attacker and target need to be outside the AMF for it to resolve as a magical attack

[Paragon]

You don't enter another square when attack. dixi. You're still in your non-AMF square and AMF doesn't make anything for you.

Or we should talk about another AoE effects. Do you get damage when attack somebody in the fireball area in the moment when it explodes?

Not only is this probably never going to happen (even if you ready an action, it resolves before the trigger so good luck hitting a target while the fire is on them ; you'd have to be very specific about it and at this point you probably deserve it ^^) but the AMF spell has some precedent about stuff being affected without needing to be in a square of the AMF :


Furthermore, while a magic sword does not function magically within the area, it is still a sword (and a masterwork sword at that)
and

An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into or cast in the area
and

Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field (this is an implication which doesn't necessarily means the other way is true, i agree, but it's not that much of a stretch to think so)

An area is an area, it starts somewhere, ends somewhere and I have yet to see a ruling that says it only affects things/PCs/whatevers if and if they're entirely standing inside the affected square.

And please, repeating stuff over and over again doesn't have any impact on the veracity of the argument so try to provide data you're basing your thesis on so we can all learn something. For instance, this doesn't help anyone :

They hit their enemy. That's it. or
Again, this is based on the space you occupy

Gimme a reason to agree with you, hammering stuff until it's true doesn't work.

And this is indeed a thought exercise ; I'm trying to make up my mind on how to handle the Sarkrith's 5ft AMF ability versus my heavy magic using PCs.

[Gruftzwerg]

Imho the problem thrives from the fact that "brought into" ain't defined...

But since AMF has examples of creatures being partially effected, the same should be true for any weapon parts inside of the AMF.

The question that remains is, do you hit body parts inside the AMF or outside the AMF (imagine when the foe tries to make attacks on his own and stretches out of the AMF to hit stuff).

Remind you that a turn and a round are just abstracts for a sequence of attempted attacks. Thus the foe could be possibly attacking you or other creatures outside the AMF.
If that is the case, there is imho a slight chance that the foe's body part gets hit outside the AMF. Imho it would be reasonable to apply a situational 20% chance that the foe is hit outside the AMF if everything works in your favor (remind you that it is the DMs duty to apply situational modifiers if the situation calls for it).
That being said, the attacker (outside of the AMF) could also prepare an action for the moment "when the foe reaches out of the AMF for an attack", to attack it at that instant (maybe with an AC bonus sine you can't attack the entire body but limit yourself to the parts outside of the AMF.

Imho the DM could adjust to such situations if he wants to. Remind you that this is just a play advice and not RAW except that the DM has the duty/right to apply situational modifiers. Thus it ain't a houserule, but just a possible situational option relying on DM interpretation and judgment.

[Paragon]

Remind you that a turn and a round are just abstracts for a sequence of attempted attacks. Thus the foe could be possibly attacking you or other creatures outside the AMF.
If that is the case, there is imho a slight chance that the foe's body part gets hit outside the AMF. Imho it would be reasonable to apply a situational 20% chance that the foe is hit outside the AMF if everything works in your favor (remind you that it is the DMs duty to apply situational modifiers if the situation calls for it).
That being said, the attacker (outside of the AMF) could also prepare an action for the moment "when the foe reaches out of the AMF for an attack", to attack it at that instant (maybe with an AC bonus sine you can't attack the entire body but limit yourself to the parts outside of the AMF.

This is good stuff ! Thanks I like it. It's kinda how cover and concealment work so there are rules to base this particular interpretation on. Probably gonna be my go-to in some situations

But...

The Sarkrith have a specific 5ft AMF centered on them so these houserules won't be of anyuse there

[Gruftzwerg]

This is good stuff ! Thanks I like it. It's kinda how cover and concealment work so there are rules to base this particular interpretation on. Probably gonna be my go-to in some situations

But...

The Sarkrith have a specific 5ft AMF centered on them so these houserules won't be of anyuse there

Lets polish up your math skills a bit ;)

1. Sarkrith is a Large creature!
2. Large creature = 10ft spacing
3. 5ft radius centered on you = 10ft diagonal

The special AMF barely covers its body. If it tries to attack anything not in its space, it reaches out of the AMF.
The 5ft radius doesn't start on your skin. It starts from the center of your body (midpoint of the 4 squares the large creature occupies).


I also noticed that you seem to have misunderstood something else in the OP:

The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting (unless they have been summoned, in which case they are treated like any other summoned creatures).
The sentence is worded a bit awkward. But it means that the constructs is still "working" and doesn't go on "stand-by" or "wink out".
Imho it doesn't grant it totally immunity to AMF, but just points out that constructs aren't affected in a "special" way like "summons" are. It doesn't mean that the construct can use Spells/SLA/SU inside the AMF or can keep magical effects "active" (not suppressed) inside it.
edit: The immunity isn't referring to constructs overall, but to the creation process that sustains em.

[Paragon]

1. Sarkrith is a Large creature!
2. Large creature = 10ft spacing
3. 5ft radius centered on you = 10ft diagonal

The special AMF barely covers its body. If it tries to attack anything not in its space, it reaches out of the AMF.
The 5ft radius doesn't start on your skin. It starts from the center of your body (midpoint of the 4 squares the large creature occupies).

Ok this could convince me that they're vulnerable when attacking meaning that short windows indeed exist to be able to hit them during the round. Where did you take that 20% chance it might work from ?



I also noticed that you seem to have misunderstood something else in the OP:

The sentence is worded a bit awkward. But it means that the constructs is still "working" and doesn't go on "stand-by" or "wink out".
Imho it doesn't grant it totally immunity to AMF, but just points out that constructs aren't affected in a "special" way like "summons" are. It doesn't mean that the construct can use Spells/SLA/SU inside the AMF or can keep magical effects "active" (not suppressed) inside it.
edit: The immunity isn't referring to constructs overall, but to the creation process that sustains em.

I didn't "misunderstood" it, I just brought up that such a poor wording could very well be abused in a competition such as the ones we participate in, for fun. Obviously no DM is going to allow this interpretation.

[holbita]

You may be outside of the AMF, but if you are attacking into it that means you are attacking 5' in front of you. That space is inside an AMF.

Inside the AMF your magical abilities get supressed, that means that your claw attack does not work inside the AMF, as such you cannot attack with it. So in the same way that the 1d6 fire damage from your flaming sword does not apply your claw would not work here. Since you performed a claw attack and not any other type of attack... your attack fails.

[Paragon]

You may be outside of the AMF, but if you are attacking into it that means you are attacking 5' in front of you. That space is inside an AMF.

Inside the AMF your magical abilities get supressed, that means that your claw attack does not work inside the AMF, as such you cannot attack with it. So in the same way that the 1d6 fire damage from your flaming sword does not apply your claw would not work here. Since you performed a claw attack and not any other type of attack... your attack fails.

Well, I was working under this assumption as well at first but if you have to enter their square(s) to hit them, they have to do the same to hit you right ?
So, meeting halfway, literally, opens up some fault in his "AMF armor" which you could take advantage off (by rolling higher than X% for instance).
Otherwise it's another case of AMF wins D&D

[Gruftzwerg]

Ok this could convince me that they're vulnerable when attacking meaning that short windows indeed exist to be able to hit them during the round. Where did you take that 20% chance it might work from ?


I looked for existing rules and the cover/concealment rules did come in handy here. I think a 50% chance would be to much for leaning into another square to attack. 20% on the other hand sound more reasonable imho. You also have to keep in mind that the Sarkrit also ain't attacking and leaning into the other square all the time. Thus 20% is imho more then generous here.

As said, these are just suggestions for situational modifiers. Just make sure that if you introduce such rules, to be consistent and be clear that you are also testing out stuff (that may be reverted if it should cause problems somehow). Your players should know their options and when you maybe decide to take those options.

Also note that while situational modifiers/rules can be sometimes fun and interesting, they also make the game more complicated and can be more time consuming (combat takes more real life time...). It's up the to the DM/table to find a good balance here. Maybe this situational rule for AMF will be fun for your table, maybe not. Or maybe it will be fun for some time and then get boring and much more of a drag on the long run. Who knows. If you like the idea, test it and see how it turns out.

[Darg]

Lets polish up your math skills a bit ;)

1. Sarkrith is a Large creature!
2. Large creature = 10ft spacing
3. 5ft radius centered on you = 10ft diagonal

The special AMF barely covers its body. If it tries to attack anything not in its space, it reaches out of the AMF.
The 5ft radius doesn't start on your skin. It starts from the center of your body (midpoint of the 4 squares the large creature occupies).

Just because an effect is centered on you doesn't mean you don't pick a corner of your squares. As a large creature, the sarkrith has 9 corners to pick from.


Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don’t control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection.

[Gruftzwerg]

Just because an effect is centered on you doesn't mean you don't pick a corner of your squares. As a large creature, the sarkrith has 9 corners to pick from.

General: "The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection."
Specific: "centered on you"

This ain't a creature with 5ft spacing where there is no center grid intersection and thus you are free to choose from which grid intersection it start.
A 10ft spacing creature has a centered grid intersection, thus you are not free to pick the point of origin. It's fix by the rules.

[Paragon]

I looked for existing rules and the cover/concealment rules did come in handy here. I think a 50% chance would be to much for leaning into another square to attack. 20% on the other hand sound more reasonable imho. You also have to keep in mind that the Sarkrit also ain't attacking and leaning into the other square all the time. Thus 20% is imho more then generous here.

I was pondering this as I went to bed last night and I figured that, in order to reach outside an AMF, you'd need to lean forward to do so (we're talking humanoid form) which would move you "center" with you.

Granted the idea that spells area have to be from a grid intersection as Darg reminded us but this little line in the Sarkrith ability may change some things :
The field is always centered on the thane and has a 5-foot radius.

Since we're already saying that you can have specific parts outside the AMF (and that's rule interpretation) we could rule that, in order to strike a target that is outside, the Sarkrith would have move its "center" to another grid intersection which would prevent his arms from getting out of the field ?
Maybe the field moves onto the creature it is attacking too and you'd have to use some other rule like a reflex save to avoid getting caught up in it.

[Gruftzwerg]

I was pondering this as I went to bed last night and I figured that, in order to reach outside an AMF, you'd need to lean forward to do so (we're talking humanoid form) which would move you "center" with you.

Granted the idea that spells area have to be from a grid intersection as Darg reminded us but this little line in the Sarkrith ability may change some things : .

Since we're already saying that you can have specific parts outside the AMF (and that's rule interpretation) we could rule that, in order to strike a target that is outside, the Sarkrith would have move its "center" to another grid intersection which would prevent his arms from getting out of the field ?
Maybe the field moves onto the creature it is attacking too and you'd have to use some other rule like a reflex save to avoid getting caught up in it.

Even if it is centered on the Sarkrith itself, you normally don't attack into your own spacing unless you are fighting extreme small or big creatures. In most cases it will use its default reach to attack creatures outside of the AMF field.

[Darg]

General: "The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection."
Specific: "centered on you"

This ain't a creature with 5ft spacing where there is no center grid intersection and thus you are free to choose from which grid intersection it start.
A 10ft spacing creature has a centered grid intersection, thus you are not free to pick the point of origin. It's fix by the rules.

You apparently missed the part where it tells you regardless of the shape, you select the point of origin. "Centered on you" is not "center of you." It's just telling you that you are the focal point, not that the spell can only originate from the center of your space (which is never specifically stated and must be extrapolated to even reach such a conclusion.)