Top 10 level 3 spells at ECL6&20

[Anthrowhale]

Continuing (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?657743-Top-10-cantrips) the (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?657825-Top-10-level-1-spells-at-ECL2-amp-20) series (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?658094-Top-10-level-2-spells-at-ECL-4-amp-20), we are attempting to nail down the top 10 level 3 spells at ECL 6 and 20. Questions/Comments/Thoughts on the below are welcome.

Clarifying questions originally from Fero (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25823946&postcount=43):
What level? Let's go with ECL6 and ECL20 (which is basically a limiting case). Note that bards don't quite get level 3 spells at ECL 6.
Essentials? Yes, let's include essentials like healing. There are many ways to find this in the game, but a list of 10 spells is also generous.
Combos? Yes, let's include relevant combos. These are most applicable in the ECL20 limit since often combos are incomplete at lower levels.
Offbeat lists? Probably not, although I'm happy to make a note of it.

ECL6 only:

CO3W4 Animate Dead (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateDead.htm). Necromancy[evil]. Creates potentially very beefy disposable melee combat minions for ECL6, for example a CR6 Ettin turns into a 20HD Zombie in the area of a Desecrate spell improving hit points, base attack, and armor class.
W Shrink Item (https://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/players-handbook-v35--6/shrink-item--2872/index.html). Transmutation. For day/level object of 2 cubic ft/level shrinks 4 size categories until thrown on surface or command word. There are many uses here as outlined by Chronos. Shrink door for passage, shrink lootbag to carry stuff, grow obstacles, etc...
BW Disobedience (Complete Scoundrel). Abjuration. For hour/level suppress ongoing control by charm or compulsion, inform about targeting spells, and fool spellcasters into believing control. This is a subtly powerful spell because it creates enemy overconfidence. It also obviates the typical-most-important effect from Protection from Evil.
DW Heart of Water (Complete Mage) Transmutation[Water]. Hour/level swim speed=land speed, Breathe Water, Escape Artist+5, convert to Freedom of Movement for round/level. Great adventure spell since it gives access to Freedom of Movement by other classes a level early.
W Fireball (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireball.htm). Evocation[Fire]. In 20' radius at long range d6/level max 10d6 fire Refl half. Initially a decent crowd control spell, but the damage cap trends towards irrelevance at higher levels. At level 6, Reserves of Strength (a feat) and an Empowered Spellshard (6k gp) more than double expected damage making a fairly potent weapon.

ECL 20 only:

W3CO4 Greater Magic Weapon (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeaponGreater.htm). Transmutation. For hour/level, +1/4 levels enhancement to attack and defense with weapon or 50 ammo. A lesser rod of metamagic chain makes this apply to the whole party. This also applies to armor class via +1+defending weapons (8k gp), and it can apply iterative-many times using off-hand weapons, elbow blades, knee blades, and/or boot blades from complete scoundrel.
W Greater Mighty Wallop (RotD). Transmutation. For hour/level bludgeoning weapons damage as +1 size category/4 levels. Interesting choices are:
Small Heavy Executioner's Mace (8d8 x3 bludgeoning+slashing or bludgeoning+piercing, 1 handed exotic, Dungeon 135). Works with Bladesong.
Heavy Maul (12d6 x3 Bludgeoning, 1 handed exotic) Peak noncrit damage.
Heavy Lucerne Hammer (6d8 x4 bludgeoning+reach, 2 handed exotic, Dragon 331). Reach is potent and a harsh crit.
Small Heavy Minotaur Greathammer (8d8 19-20/x4 Bludgeoning, 1 handed exotic, Monster Manual IV). Peak crit damage.
Small Heavy Goad (6d8 nonlethal bludgeoning, 1 handed exotic, Frostburn). Nonlethal damage is useful sometimes.
(Note that Heavy is from Magic of Faerun page 117 and changes d6 to d8 and d8 to 2d6)
W Anticipate Teleportation (Spell Compendium). Abjuration. For 24 hours 5'/level radius incoming teleportations delayed one round and you are warned. Somewhat iffy due to potential friendly fire, but it seems to be an important effect at high levels because many monsters have at will teleport.
OW Nondetection (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nondetection.htm). Abjuration. For hour/level diviner must overcome caster level check to use remote detection spells against a touched creature and its gear or an object at 11+caster level with difficulty increasing by 4 for the caster. This is the standard antidote to scrying as used by enemies.
Co Love's Pain(Vile Darkness). Evocation [Evil, Mind-Affecting]. Medium range target's closest friend or loved one takes 1d6/2 levels max 10d6 damage at any range. When comboing with something like L9 Mindrape, this provides a reliable unbounded range damage effect which has a somewhat broader scope than L6 Dream Casting. Note that the friend/loved one must be vulnerable to mind-affecting effects and not in an AMF. This is hard to use at lower levels, although it's possible you could occasionally gaslight to a similar effect with Glibness or adventure to find secret lovers. When it does apply, the spell can be spammed with metamagic enhancers for an out of combat kill of a BBEG's lieutenants who are not immune to mind-affecting.

ECL6&20:

CD Venomfire (Serpent Kingdoms). Transmutation[Acid]. For hour/level naturally poisonous attacks also deal 1d6/level acid damage. An uncapped damage spell which has rather specific applications. Nevertheless, it's so effective you'll want to seek those out. The most commonly cited application is a Fleshraker Animal Companion, but a higher op choice would be Polymorph[Kelvezu] making sure you use Riverine weapons so they aren't damaged by your acidic poison.
BE Glibness (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glibness.htm). Transmutation. For 10 minutes minutes/level Bluff+30 for fairy tales. This can be abused ridiculously. At high levels you might consider augmenting with other skill boosters.
D Primal Instinct (Dragon Magic). Transmutation. For 24 hours Initiative+5(competence). Much longer duration than Nerveskitter and cumulative.
CW Shivering Touch (Frostburn). Necromancy[Cold]. Deal 3d6 dexterity damage as a touch attack. At ECL6, this renders creatures with a middling dexterity (10) helpless. For example, most dragons. At ECL20, you Enervate or use Mark of the Enlightened Soul with a lesser rod of maximize spell to deal 27 dex damage, shutting down almost anything vulnerable to dexterity damage. Use Spectral Hand or Ocular Spell to dispense at range.
O Anyspell(Spell Compendium). Transmutation. Prepare any L2- arcane spell. An omnispell with more precise targeting than Substitute Domain. Use with the spontaneous domain casting ACF or Initiate of Mystra for multiple casts/day. Examples include Scintillating Scales, Sense Weakness, Glitterdust, etc... While this remains a fine spell, it's utility declines as more options become available at later levels.


B = Bard, C = Cleric, Co = Corrupt, D = Druid, E = bEguiler, O = dOmain, W = Sorcerer/Wizard

Count by:
class: 1.5B, 2.5C, 0.5Co, 2.5D, 1E, 5.5W
school: 1.5 Abj, 1 Evoc, 1.5 Necro, 6 Trans
modifier: 1 Acid, 1 Cold, 1 Evil, 0.5 Fire, 0.5 Mind-affecting, 0.5 Water
source: 0.5 BoVD, 0.5 CM, 0.5 CS, 1 DM, 1 Frostburn, 3.5 PHB, 0.5 RotD, 1.5 SC, 1 SK


On the "probably not" list:
Mass Lesser Vigor: Heroics[Martial Stance[Martial Spirit]] instead
Tongues: Speak Language instead
Deeper Darkness: Kinda minor
Vision of the Omniscient Eye: Good, but we have stronger spells.
Hesitate: Suggestion seems superior
Shield of Warding: AC/Refl+5(Sacred) is good, but the duration isn't. Doesn't really compared to Magic Vestment or Alter Self.
Restoration: This is on the healer list, but you are probably better off using Heroics[Iron Heart Surge] to remove negative levels at ECL10+.
BW Haste (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/haste.htm). Transmutation. For round/level party move+30(enhance) and +1 attack/round. A fine spell which seems to be outclassed by Venomfire, Greater Mighty Wallop, and Girallon's Blessing w.r.t. attack damage.
Marked Pulse. swift lesser wings of flurry, but with a to-heavy feat tax.
C Darkfire (Spell Compendium). Evocation[Fire]. For round/level 1d6/2 levels max 5d6 fire to 120' range. This is persistable for an all-day ranged touch attack that scales well due to iteratives as well as spell, attack, and damage riders. Judged inadequate because more mundane ranged attack options are not to far behind.
Soul Charge. Trade negative level for free cast of on list L3- spell completion item anytime in next 24 hours. A nice omnispell access effect for limited spells known casters. Maybe not worth it, since you could just use Channel Charge instead.
Alter Fortune. 200xp for an immediate action save reroll. It's very good, but there are already ways to reroll defensively. Is it worthwhile to use offensively to force badguys to fail a save? Maybe not.
CO Magic Vestment (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicVestment.htm) For hour/level +1/4 caster levels max +5 enhancement bonus to Armor & Shield AC bonus. Defending weapons cover the AC angle, although Magic Vestment remains clearly useful due to the Empyreal property which changes enhancement bonus into a sacred bonus to saves. Nevertheless, it's on the war, strength, nobility, halfling, and chastity domains so native access or Substitute Domain access is pretty strong.
Major Image. A great spell that's relatively incremental over Silent Image.
BCOW3D4 Dispel Magic (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm). Abjuration. Dispel check of 1d20+caster level max 10. Adds Area dispel and counterspell to what Arcane Turmoil can do. Note that this is level 1 on the Trapsmith list. It's to reactive for effective use at ECL6 and basically irrelevant at ECL20. Also, we have Arcane Turmoil at L2 already.
CDW Girallon's Blessing (Spell Compendium). Transmutation. 10 minutes/level 2 extra arms. A force multiplier in melee and potentially ranged. However, the melee situation is already heavily dominant, so a more comprehensive approach seems desirable.
Explosive Runes. A bit to particular to deploy offensively.
Magic Circle is also available at this level, and typically useful, but it's available from every alignment domain list and hence commonly available using substitute domain.
Touch of Juiblex. A touch range Fort-or-die with a 4 round fuse. The fuse length is a substantial drawback, although this is the first save-or-die available.
Devil's Ego. Charisma +4(Profane) and you are an outsider as a swift action for minute/round. This is a good spell due to the rare bonus type and easy persistability, but it's perhaps not a large enough bonus for top-10 and you can just start as an outsider if you want to leverage Alter Self.
B3DOW4C5 Scrying (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scrying.htm). Divination. For minute/level, see and hear creature at any distance Will negates. Part of Scry&Die combo. Substitute Domain[Oracle, Lust], Greater Anyspell[Scrying], or Miracle[Greater Scrying] are reasonable substitutes over the levels where the teleport portion of scry&die becomes available.
CW Battlemagic Perception (HoB). Divination. For 10 minutes/level sense spells & SLAs within 100' and counter a spell as a free action once. The free action part of this is great since the enemy spellcaster is stymied at no cost in actions. However, at high caster level a dispel magic based counterspell is unlikely to work and you are unlikely to have the exact counterspell otherwise on hand.


Thanks to many commentators in refining the list.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I'm not sure Darkfire really deserves that spot. Not only is fire damage commonly resisted, a DMM cleric will also rarely have the turning uses to spare to persist it.
Not to mention that running around with one of your hands on fire all day does present some rp problems.

As for Hesitate the reason it's so good is its native immediate-action casting time. It's not better than Suggestion, but the ability to cast it in addition to your standard action and decent effect make it very useful at all levels (as long as your enemies aren't immune). It also works great with a lesser chain spell metamagic rod.
Same for GMW btw, it may not be individually stronger than Greater Mighty Wallop, but it can be chained to benefit the whole party (and works on non-bludgeoning weapons). Or even just all your backup weapons, Defending armor spikes and so on.

For the ECL 6 list i'd like to suggest Deep Slumber since it's one of the better SoL options at that level. You can also increase the HD cap (and DC) with Slumber Sand (Sand) to extend its lifetime.
Also Disobedience (CS) for protecting yourself against charms and domination long before Mind Blank comes online.

For the ECL 6 & 20 list my suggestion would be Haboob (Sand).
It blocks LoS and does untyped no-save no-SR damage, lasts for 1 min/level and since it has the [air] descriptor it can easily be quickened with an Aurial Sapphire (CC) for BFC combos.

[Anthrowhale]

I'm not sure Darkfire really deserves that spot. Not only is fire damage commonly resisted, a DMM cleric will also rarely have the turning uses to spare to persist it.
It's honestly a bit weak at ECL 6 so I could see sticking it on the ECL20 list only. It picks up at ECL 8 when iteratives come online at 3/4 BAB. In terms of whether or not you have the TUs to do it, that's a question of priority. You might be able to persist 6 spells/day at ECL6, and this could be in the top 6.



Not to mention that running around with one of your hands on fire all day does present some rp problems.

The "dark" part has this covered: the fire is only visible with darkvision.



As for Hesitate the reason it's so good is its native immediate-action casting time.

Vision of Punishment is a direct competitor here. VoP provides nauseate while Hesitate provides daze-in-all-but-name. Daze is a marginally more powerful debuff, but the save/round to end on hesitate puts me off quite a bit. Overall, it seems like no real increment over VoP as we might expect for a 3rd level spell.



Same for GMW btw, it may not be individually stronger than Greater Mighty Wallop, but it can be chained to benefit the whole party (and works on non-bludgeoning weapons). Or even just all your backup weapons, Defending armor spikes and so on.

Noted. Greater Mighty Wallop can be reach chained but of course that's a greater tax.



For the ECL 6 list i'd like to suggest Deep Slumber since it's one of the better SoL options at that level. You can also increase the HD cap (and DC) with Slumber Sand (Sand) to extend its lifetime.

It suffers from the same 1 round casting time as Sleep which is significantly undesirable. Maybe Haste is a better choice, for example? Or fall back on (possibly quickened) Heartache if you want the helpless condition.



Also Disobedience (CS) for protecting yourself against charms and domination long before Mind Blank comes online.

Another nice one I forgot. Disobedience + Nondetection + a high caster level is pretty close to Mindblank in effect.



For the ECL 6 & 20 list my suggestion would be Haboob (Sand).
It blocks LoS and does untyped no-save no-SR damage, lasts for 1 min/level and since it has the [air] descriptor it can easily be quickened with an Aurial Sapphire (CC) for BFC combos.
LoS blocker is already done with no action using Obscuring Snow, so it seems unnecessary?

Comments on Alter Fortune or Venomfire?

[sleepyphoenixx]

The "dark" part has this covered: the fire is only visible with darkvision.
I was more referring to the part where you can't touch things with one hand without burning them. Makes things rather awkward if your DM doesn't let you just ignore it.

I'd suggest Ice Axe (SpC) as an alternative - it doesn't provide the range option but its damage is higher and it explicitly vanishes whenever you use the hand for something else and reappears when you're done.


Vision of Punishment is a direct competitor here. VoP provides nauseate while Hesitate provides daze-in-all-but-name. Daze is a marginally more powerful debuff, but the save/round to end on hesitate puts me off quite a bit. Overall, it seems like no real increment over VoP as we might expect for a 3rd level spell.
Vision of Punishment is evil-only and does strength damage to you. Not much, but it's enough to add up if you want to use it more than once a day.
Hesitate lacking both of those limitations is enough to consider it an upgrade imo. It also works with Mesmerist's Gloves (MIC).


It suffers from the same 1 round casting time as Sleep which is significantly undesirable. Maybe Haste is a better choice, for example? Or fall back on (possibly quickened) Heartache if you want the helpless condition.
A Chronocharm of the Uncaring Archmage (MIC) only costs 500gp. And neither Haste nor Heartache provide the relatively long-term complete neutralization of one or more enemies.
Heartache also can't be cast by good-aligned clerics.

Deep Slumber also has a potentially much higher save DC than other BFC spells at this level since as a compulsion it can benefit from the Charming Veil soulmeld (in addition to Slumber Sand and enchantment being well-supported with DC boosters).


LoS blocker is already done with no action using Obscuring Snow, so it seems unnecessary?
The untyped damage makes for a decent fire & forget solution if you combine it with something to keep the enemy in place - Wall of Thorns or Entangle for example.
I feel that and the ability to use it at range are worth the increase in spell level.


Comments on Alter Fortune or Venomfire?
Alter Fortune is okay, but i feel there are enough reroll options that don't cost you XP that i don't really use it much.
What makes it stand out is the ability to make an enemy reroll a save. Which is great on paper, but in practice it's not usually worth the XP cost over just casting another, different spell either in most circumstances.
If you're somehow casting it without the XP cost it becomes fantastic though, so it deserves mention in the context of wands and Channel Charge at least.

As for Venomfire it's by far the most potentially powerful damage spell at this level, so i'd say it obviously belongs on the list. And that's before book diving for animal companions and wild shape forms with maximum number of poisonous attacks per round. Throw in Dragon and Aberration Wild Shape and it just becomes ridiculous.
The only "downside" it has is that it's probably one of the first spells a DM will ban.

Another spell i think is worth consideration is Battlemagic Perception (HoB). The awareness of spellcasting (and knowing what's being cast at you) helps prevent ambushes and the free-action counterspell is a potential lifesaver in any fight that involves other spellcasters.

[Thunder999]

Mass Lesser Vigor: Heroics[Martial Stance[Martial Spirit]] instead
Shivering Touch: Maybe Finger Darts is better?
Tongues: Speak Language instead
Deeper Darkness: Kinda minor
Vision of the Omniscient Eye: Good, but we have stronger spells.
Hesitate: Suggestion seems superior
Shield of Warding: AC/Refl+5(Sacred) is good, but the duration isn't. Doesn't really compared to Magic Vestment or Alter Self.
Restoration: This is on the healer list, but you are probably better off using Heroics[Iron Heart Surge] to remove negative levels at ECL10+. BW Haste. Transmutation. For round/level party move+30(enhance) and +1 attack/round. A fine spell which seems to be outclassed by Venomfire, Greater Mighty Wallop, and Girallon's Blessing w.r.t. attack damage.
Marked Pulse. swift lesser wings of flurry, but with a to-heavy feat tax.

So Heroics(Martial Spirit) is not really a replacement for Mass Lesser Vigor, it's only 1 person per attack, which eliminates the Mass part, which is really the only appealing part of this spell in the first place. Not that a tiny amount of healing per round is particularly useful, either we're in combat and it's not enough or we're out of combat and wands of Lesser Vigor or CLW (CLW is faster, Lesser Vigor more gold efficient).

Hesitate is Immediate Action, that means you can use it defensively while still having your actual standard action free.

Shivering Touch is a tricky one, it's a lot better baseline at CL 6 (3d6 vs 2d4) and has no inconvenient downside that requires resources to be invested in removing abilitity damage, but it's melee, so you might instead be investing in giving it range, there's also the Cold subtype issue, which means you can't Shivering Touch a White Dragon.
I'd normally prefer Shivering Touch specifically because you just prep it on a cleric when you need to one shot a dragon, but that's too niche to justify inclusion here.

Venomfire relies on having poison, great for making your fleshraker even more OP, not so useful for buffing the rest of the party or even the most common wildshape and polymorph forms.

[Anthrowhale]

I dropped Haste in favor of Venomfire.


I was more referring to the part where you can't touch things with one hand without burning them.
It says "The flames ... harm neither you nor your equipment." You'll have to be careful if your on looting duty or in a meet&greet situation, but that doesn't seem intolerably awkward?


I'd suggest Ice Axe (SpC) as an alternative - it doesn't provide the range option but its damage is higher and it explicitly vanishes whenever you use the hand for something else and reappears when you're done.

There are already much better melee options. The challenging is efficiently altering the situation at a distance.


Vision of Punishment is evil-only and does strength damage to you.

It's sanctified, actually.



Not much, but it's enough to add up if you want to use it more than once a day.

The Rod of Bodily Restoration seems to address this fairly effectively and cheaply.


Hesitate lacking both of those limitations is enough to consider it an upgrade imo. It also works with Mesmerist's Gloves (MIC).
The gloves are quite nice---they'd really enhance Heartache and Suggestion as well.



A Chronocharm of the Uncaring Archmage (MIC) only costs 500gp.

Nifty. This addresses the casting time very well once/day. I'm trying to decide how much I should care about once/day over multiple times / day.



And neither Haste nor Heartache provide the relatively long-term complete neutralization of one or more enemies.
Heartache also can't be cast by good-aligned clerics.

I'd partially disagree on Heartache, so long as you coordinate to have someone set to CdG.



Deep Slumber also has a potentially much higher save DC than other BFC spells at this level since as a compulsion it can benefit from the Charming Veil soulmeld (in addition to Slumber Sand and enchantment being well-supported with DC boosters).

Just for calibration, I'd call it 'marginally higher'.



The untyped damage makes for a decent fire & forget solution if you combine it with something to keep the enemy in place - Wall of Thorns or Entangle for example.
I feel that and the ability to use it at range are worth the increase in spell level.

But, is it worth the redundancy?



Alter Fortune is okay, but i feel there are enough reroll options that don't cost you XP that i don't really use it much.
What makes it stand out is the ability to make an enemy reroll a save. Which is great on paper, but in practice it's not usually worth the XP cost over just casting another, different spell either in most circumstances.
If you're somehow casting it without the XP cost it becomes fantastic though, so it deserves mention in the context of wands and Channel Charge at least.

Ok.



As for Venomfire it's by far the most potentially powerful damage spell at this level, so i'd say it obviously belongs on the list. And that's before book diving for animal companions and wild shape forms with maximum number of poisonous attacks per round. Throw in Dragon and Aberration Wild Shape and it just becomes ridiculous.
The only "downside" it has is that it's probably one of the first spells a DM will ban.

Added.



Another spell i think is worth consideration is Battlemagic Perception (HoB). The awareness of spellcasting (and knowing what's being cast at you) helps prevent ambushes and the free-action counterspell is a potential lifesaver in any fight that involves other spellcasters.
That is a good one.

[Fero]

This is a great start. Some suggested additions are below. I also want to point out that third level is special in that it is the highest "low" level and thus more easily benefits from metamagic rods, empowered spell shards, etc.


Animate Dead (6&20): This is an absolute juggernaut of a spell. A 5th level cleric can easily get a 20HD undead by using desecrate. The GP cost is trivial compared to most other permanent minions. Can't find good corpses? Make Bloodhulks, etc.

Anticipate Teleportation (20): This is a very powerful and long lasting effect that negates (or at least severely limits) scry and die strategies. I think most wizards should keep this up 24/7 by mid levels.

Fireball alternatives: Fireball is a valid contemporary for tip AoE damage spell at level 3. However, Ball of Fangs is also worth consideration, as is Shatter Floor.

Earthen Shield/Wall of Ectoplasm (6): The first true walls come alive at lvl 3 and both can be very powerful in the correct situations.

Explosive Runes (6 & 20): This is probably the first abusable ward spell. Fill the pages of a book with runes and then use a wand of erase as a detonator.

Major Image (6 & 20): This is a fantastic and versatile illusion lined only by the player and the DM.

Permeable Form (20): This is a very good defensive and utility spell. One round of etherealness can fix a lot of problems.

Phantom Steed (6 & 20): huge speed and, with CL boosters, all day flight.

Plant Growth (6) crazy good battlefield control. Slows enemies to a crawl in a huge, shapeable AoE. If the enemy depends on melee, this is an "I Win" button.

Regal Procession (6 & 20): aka Wall of Horse, a large number of horses can solve a lot of problems. Need to move the party? Horses. Want to rip down a wall? Horses. Distract predators or mindless foes? Horses. Block enemy movement? Horses. Truly an amazing spell.

Servant Horde (6 & 20): You can do a lot with a large number of unseen servants. Carry hundreds of pounds (do they fly?) Drag thousands of pounds. Hold blankets to block LoS. Make camp. These are very good.

Shrink Item (6 & 20): This spell opens all sorts of tricks (my favorite being the anti-anti-magic zone hat). The duration is days so each spell slot translates to one shrunken item per CL (double if extended).

Tiny Hut/Wall of Light (6 & 20): Both spells block LoS one way. The Hut is perhaps better b/c it works for the whole party. However, the Wall is more malleable.

Water to Acid (6 & 20): get a huge volume of permanent acid. Let the party Rogues resolve all attacks as touch attacks. Combine with telekinesis for good damage, etc.

Whispering Sand (20): This is one of the better long range communication spells as the recipient need only have some sand. This is very useful to high level parties that may routinely spend downtime continents apart.

[Anthrowhale]

So Heroics(Martial Spirit) is not really a replacement for Mass Lesser Vigor, it's only 1 person per attack, which eliminates the Mass part, which is really the only appealing part of this spell in the first place. Not that a tiny amount of healing per round is particularly useful, either we're in combat and it's not enough or we're out of combat and wands of Lesser Vigor or CLW (CLW is faster, Lesser Vigor more gold efficient).

... or we're out of combat and just do a bit of vigorous sparring to bring the party back to full health for free? I'm not worried about in-combat healing as we already have that covered.



Hesitate is Immediate Action, that means you can use it defensively while still having your actual standard action free.

Sure, but you can Vision of Punishment as well? I guess Immediate is a little bit better than Swift, but the difference seems marginal?



Venomfire relies on having poison, great for making your fleshraker even more OP, not so useful for buffing the rest of the party or even the most common wildshape and polymorph forms.
I disagree here w.r.t. Kelvezu which is an excellent form in many ways.

[Anthrowhale]

Some suggested additions are below.
... and some arguments for deletions?



Animate Dead (6&20): This is an absolute juggernaut of a spell. A 5th level cleric can easily get a 20HD undead by using desecrate. The GP cost is trivial compared to most other permanent minions. Can't find good corpses? Make Bloodhulks, etc.

I could imagine Animate Dead being somewhat useful at ECL6. I'm much more skeptical about ECL20 since they probably can't even hit. Even at ECL6, they destroy any ability for the party to stealth.



Anticipate Teleportation (20): This is a very powerful and long lasting effect that negates (or at least severely limits) scry and die strategies. I think most wizards should keep this up 24/7 by mid levels.

Agreed.



Fireball alternatives: Fireball is a valid contemporary for tip AoE damage spell at level 3. However, Ball of Fangs is also worth consideration, as is Shatter Floor.

Ball of Fangs is force instead of fire (good), but medium instead of long (bad) and 10' radius instead of 20' radius (usually bad). Shatter Floor is sonic instead of fire (usually good), medium instead of long (bad), 15' radius instead of 20' radius (usually bad), and d4s instead of d6s. These are ok alternatives but not clearly dominating unless you happen to know there are lots of fire immune types.



Earthen Shield/Wall of Ectoplasm (6): The first true walls come alive at lvl 3 and both can be very powerful in the correct situations.

Real walls do sound nice.



Explosive Runes (6 & 20): This is probably the first abusable ward spell. Fill the pages of a book with runes and then use a wand of erase as a detonator.

This seems touchy. Erase says you "must touch" which seems undesirable.



Major Image (6 & 20): This is a fantastic and versatile illusion lined only by the player and the DM.

Definitely significant.



Permeable Form (20): This is a very good defensive and utility spell. One round of etherealness can fix a lot of problems.

Heroics[martial study[shadowjaunt]] seems like a reasonable alternative in many cases.



Phantom Steed (6 & 20): huge speed and, with CL boosters, all day flight.

Lots of speed here, but remarkably fragile making them inappropriate anywhere you might plausibly have combat encounters. I'm not sure this is worthwhile?



Plant Growth (6) crazy good battlefield control. Slows enemies to a crawl in a huge, shapeable AoE. If the enemy depends on melee, this is an "I Win" button.

It's very effective where applicable, but the scope of applicability seems plausibly even smaller than entangle?


Regal Procession (6 & 20): aka Wall of Horse, a large number of horses can solve a lot of problems. Need to move the party? Horses. Want to rip down a wall? Horses. Distract predators or mindless foes? Horses. Block enemy movement? Horses. Truly an amazing spell.

The movement application here seems rather slow. Distraction seems ok, but it's optimizing for typically-less-dangerous foes.


Servant Horde (6 & 20): You can do a lot with a large number of unseen servants. Carry hundreds of pounds (do they fly?) Drag thousands of pounds. Hold blankets to block LoS. Make camp. These are very good.

They seem fun, but I'm not sure they are a top-10 spell. Plausibly, you could get by without them.


Shrink Item (6 & 20): This spell opens all sorts of tricks (my favorite being the anti-anti-magic zone hat). The duration is days so each spell slot translates to one shrunken item per CL (double if extended).

Seems good but maybe not a top-10 spell? Is it ever essential?


Tiny Hut/Wall of Light (6 & 20): Both spells block LoS one way. The Hut is perhaps better b/c it works for the whole party. However, the Wall is more malleable.

Obscuring Snow + Snowsight is already giving us this.


Water to Acid (6 & 20): get a huge volume of permanent acid. Let the party Rogues resolve all attacks as touch attacks. Combine with telekinesis for good damage, etc.

A great source for a bomb thrower, but it doesn't seem competitive with other damage strategies? Darkfire does 5d6 damage and can be used with iteratives.



Whispering Sand (20): This is one of the better long range communication spells as the recipient need only have some sand. This is very useful to high level parties that may routinely spend downtime continents apart.
Maybe leverage scrying instead?

[Fero]

Regarding spells to remove:

1. Dispel Magic--> if we include transmith (I don't think we should), then we should exchange this for Greater Dispel.

2. Scrying--> This is interesting as it highlights the the challenge of comparing spells from multiple lists with disparate level progression. Yes, it is a level 3 spell to a bard. However, Bards don't get level 3 spells until 7th. As such, the cost to the bard is the same as (perhaps greater than) the cost of a 4th level spell to a wizard/cleric. This is not to say that you should remove it. However, you may want to consider how to weigh spells from lists that don't get to 9th level spells.

3. Darkfire--> I am not convinced here. Unless you persist, you must wait a round between casting and using. The damage is single target and only 10d6 until level 15. I can see how this would be useful with persist for non-melee persist builds. However, my sense is that most DMM clerics would replace it with a higher level spell fairly quickly.

4. Venomfire--> I am not a huge fan of this. It only seems to be really good with creatures with multiple poisonous attacks (aka Fleshrakers). However, the creature is still limited to melee and must make a successful attack role. My bigger issue is that the spell appears to be an example of an error by omission. The DMG has fairly stringent guidelines for how spell damage should progress. It is possible that the drafters intended Venomfire to ignore those limits. However, I think it is more likely that they just forgot to add the CL damage cap clause to the spell.

5. Magic Vestment--> I would argue for GMW over the vestment b/c: 1) offense is the best defense; and 2) magic weapons cost more than magic armor. I am also not convinced that AC is viable long term nor that magic armor shields are a strong way to get high AC.

6. Girtilion's Blessing- This is a good buff but I think the 10 min/lvl (as opposed to 1 hr/lvl) keeps this from the top 10.

[RandomPeasant]

W Fireball (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireball.htm). Evocation[Fire]. In 20' radius at long range d6/level max 10d6 fire Refl half. Initially a decent crowd control spell, but the damage cap trends towards irrelevance at higher levels.

There is no universe where this spell belongs on your list but haste doesn't. 1d6/level is extremely bad damage scaling. Like there are CR 2 monsters that live average damage from your 6d6 fireball. fireball has exactly one use-case, and that's the fact that it does damage at Long range and can blow up stuff you haven't meaningfully encountered yet. But the idea of using it for damage just does not work in the face of how HP actually scales. Namely, with CON modifiers, multiple HD per CR, and HD larger than the Rogue's.


B Glibness (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glibness.htm). Transmutation. For 10 minutes minutes/level Bluff+30 for fairy tales. This can be abused ridiculously. At high levels you might consider augmenting with other skill boosters.

I have no idea why you have this at "only CL 20". If anything, it's even better at CL 6 when people's Sense Motive modifiers are lower.


O Anyspell (Spell Compendium). Transmutation. Prepare any L2- arcane spell. Another omnispell, even more capable than Substitute Domain. Use with the spontaneous domain casting ACF or Initiate of Mystra for multiple casts/day.

Eh, differently, not more. There are lots of spells substitute domain gets you that are, you know, higher than 2nd level. Or that you might want to cast more than once per day (which, yes, is not an option for the standard Cleric, but very much is for a large number of classes that get domains).

Also it's not really clear that you can use it multiple times per day even if you find some way to cast it multiple times per day. It explicitly says the spell you prepare "occupies your 3rd-level domain spell slot", so what it does in the event that you cast it more times than you have domain slots is really anyone's guess. To step away from the point of the thread, probably "cast a Wizard spell in place of a domain spell 1/day" should be the Spell Domain granted power and the 3rd and 6th level spells should be dispel magic and greater dispel magic or something.


BW Haste (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/haste.htm). Transmutation. For round/level party move+30(enhance) and +1 attack/round. A fine spell which seems to be outclassed by Venomfire, Greater Mighty Wallop, and Girallon's Blessing w.r.t. attack damage.

This is only really true if your party is optimized to make those spells work, and not optimized to make haste work. In your stock Fighter/Cleric/Wizard/Rogue party, haste is an extra attack from the Fighter (good because it's the biggest attack from someone who is probably using a 2-hander), the Rogue (good because it means more dice of Sneak Attack), the Cleric (probably fairly mediocre), and then even at 6th level you have three extra targets to stick on minions from e.g. animate dead. And it scales up from there if you have a Druid or something in the party, or as you gain levels. It is worse than venomfire (assuming you have a target with multiple eligble attacks), but I would say it is definitely better than girallon's blessing and arguably better than greater mighty wallop.


The "dark" part has this covered: the fire is only visible with darkvision.

You mean the sense that literally every single core CR 20 monster has and which you can get from a 2nd level spell slot with hours/level duration? Who is this hiding from that you care about hiding stuff from? "Oh good, the 3rd level human commoner who I can vaporize without having to roll dice can't tell that I have lazer hands, this is critical to my ability to murder demon princes."

It's not even that great of a disguise at CL 6, because the game loves handing out darkvision. The Annis? Darkvision. Babau? Darkvision. Belker? Darkvision. Bralani? Darkvision. I guess if you run into an Ettin you can be secure in knowing it can't see your invisible fire. But every Kobold, Goblin, Dwarf, Orc, Drow, Gnoll, and Troglodyte can. Seriously, this is like the most common bonus sense the game gives things, "invisible to people who don't have Darkvision" might as well be flavortext.


Shivering Touch is a tricky one, it's a lot better baseline at CL 6 (3d6 vs 2d4) and has no inconvenient downside that requires resources to be invested in removing abilitity damage, but it's melee, so you might instead be investing in giving it range, there's also the Cold subtype issue, which means you can't Shivering Touch a White Dragon.
I'd normally prefer Shivering Touch specifically because you just prep it on a cleric when you need to one shot a dragon, but that's too niche to justify inclusion here.

shivering touch is weird here because it is probably best in like the CL 8-10 range where you have enough resources to remove its downsides, but are not so high level that immunities start to become a concern. But at 6th level it is meaningfully difficult to get off, and at 20th level it is not too much of a problem to engineer immunity to. That said, it probably makes the list just cause the effect it does is so goddamn obscene. Certainly over fireball.


Animate Dead (6&20): This is an absolute juggernaut of a spell. A 5th level cleric can easily get a 20HD undead by using desecrate. The GP cost is trivial compared to most other permanent minions. Can't find good corpses? Make Bloodhulks, etc.

animate dead is probably the single best 3rd level spell except maybe shivering touch, and even then has an advantage in practice because it's way easier to use in ways that will not result in your DM banning it.


Major Image (6 & 20): This is a fantastic and versatile illusion lined only by the player and the DM.

My issue with major image is that while it is objectively powerful, I am not sure how often the marginal advantage it offers you over minor image or even silent image is. A lot of the images you want to make are of walls or other static stuff, and it doesn't really matter if those smell right. Contrast this with the difference between, say, animate dead and summon undead II.


I could imagine Animate Dead being somewhat useful at ECL6. I'm much more skeptical about ECL20 since they probably can't even hit. Even at ECL6, they destroy any ability for the party to stealth.

The party is not going to stealth unless the entire party optimizes for that. And, frankly, the number of situations where having everyone be sneaky instead of just the Rogue is useful is way, way smaller than the number of situations where 24 HD of undead are useful.


Dispel Magic--> if we include transmith (I don't think we should), then we should exchange this for Greater Dispel.

I'm just not super convinced it belongs on the list. Dispelling might make the top ten effects that you want a character to have, but I am not convinced that dispel magic is the tenth-strongest spell at 3rd level. There are probably a half-dozen spells that are better than it before you even start considering non-combat effects.


Scrying--> This is interesting as it highlights the the challenge of comparing spells from multiple lists with disparate level progression. Yes, it is a level 3 spell to a bard. However, Bards don't get level 3 spells until 7th. As such, the cost to the bard is the same as (perhaps greater than) the cost of a 4th level spell to a wizard/cleric. This is not to say that you should remove it. However, you may want to consider how to weigh spells from lists that don't get to 9th level spells.

If you're including scrying, I do not see how you justify not having charm monster on your list.


Darkfire--> I am not convinced here. Unless you persist, you must wait a round between casting and using. The damage is single target and only 10d6 until level 15. I can see how this would be useful with persist for non-melee persist builds. However, my sense is that most DMM clerics would replace it with a higher level spell fairly quickly.

I'm pretty sure a typical DMM Cleric build is going to do more damage with just regular weapon attacks. Maxed-out darkfire averages 17.5 damage per attack (slightly improved by being a touch attack, but I would say more substantially weakened by being fire damage). Between righteous might, divine power, and greater magic weapon, a 10th level Cleric is looking at comparable damage with a longbow and base 18 STR, and while that's a high base stat it's a pretty minimal set of buffs. If they wield a melee weapon instead, their damage is better even with base 10.


4. Venomfire--> I am not a huge fan of this. It only seems to be really good with creatures with multiple poisonous attacks (aka Fleshrakers). However, the creature is still limited to melee and must make a successful attack role. My bigger issue is that the spell appears to be an example of an error by omission. The DMG has fairly stringent guidelines for how spell damage should progress. It is possible that the drafters intended Venomfire to ignore those limits. However, I think it is more likely that they just forgot to add the CL damage cap clause to the spell.

Eh even if you assume the CL damage cap applies it scales really well for however long you think it scales. With just two eligible attacks, it scales as fast as disintegrate, and it's easy to get more than two attacks.

[Fero]

Re Animate Dead: I am with RandomPeasant that this is a strong contender for the #1 spot. A 20 HD undead may be stronger than the entire 6th level party. The spell gets more powerful as you level and new options open up. Notably, Awaken Undead let's your undead regain many of their Ex abilities. Even at level 20 and beyond, you can reanimated (and awaken) Dragon Skeletons/Zombies. I would be happy to have a 41 HD zombie great wyrm gold dragon with flight, a breath weapon and (due to Awaken) a Frightful Presence at level 20 for the low cost of a 3rd level slot used a few days prior (and 1,025 gp).

Re Explosive Runes: Good point on erase. However, you can use a low level dispell (and I suspect numerous other effects). More broadly, my point was that wards are highly abusable. This spell in particular can lead to arbitrarily large amounts of damage. As with Animate Dead, you can get this advantage by using the spell during downtime and therefore lose no slots while adventuring.

Re Water to Acid: The advantage of this spell over, for example, Darkfire, is that it can be given to allies. This makes it great for sneak attackers. It also lets you turn low level allies (followers, called Dretches, peasants, homonculi, skeletons, etc) into a serious threat to most foes. Assuming a weight similar to water, you can get 60+ vials pf acod per CL per casting. The Acid is also notable for ignoring the hardness of metal objects. Locks, bars, doors with hinges, etc. Are no obstacle for a character who knows this spell. Also, like the above, you can use this spell before the adventuring day to stockpile Acid for the adventuring day. You can also just sell it for GP, although most DMs will get upset about that sort of thing.

[sleepyphoenixx]

4. Venomfire--> I am not a huge fan of this. It only seems to be really good with creatures with multiple poisonous attacks (aka Fleshrakers). However, the creature is still limited to melee and must make a successful attack role. My bigger issue is that the spell appears to be an example of an error by omission. The DMG has fairly stringent guidelines for how spell damage should progress. It is possible that the drafters intended Venomfire to ignore those limits. However, I think it is more likely that they just forgot to add the CL damage cap clause to the spell.

It's not so great on a cleric, but on a druid you have native access to any number of wild shape forms, animal companions and summons with poison attacks, even in core-only.
It's also not limited to melee, if the target can use its poison at range Venomfire works with that too.
Swindlespitters are available as companions at level 1 and spit a 15ft blinding poison cone every 1d4 rounds, Dragon Wild Shape gets steel dragons for poison breath and for everyone else there's the Spit Poison/Venom and Deadly Spittle feats.

Even in the non-optimized case of only 1 poisonous attack each for the druid and animal companion (since you can share it) the long duration and uncapped no-save no-SR damage still makes it a top-tier damage spell for the level.



Re Explosive Runes: Good point on erase. However, you can use a low level dispell (and I suspect numerous other effects). More broadly, my point was that wards are highly abusable. This spell in particular can lead to arbitrarily large amounts of damage. As with Animate Dead, you can get this advantage by using the spell during downtime and therefore lose no slots while adventuring.

This trick only works if you get someone else to trigger it because you always automatically succeed at dispelling your own spells. A familiar with a wand or ring of spellstoring is fine though.

[Anthrowhale]

1. Dispel Magic--> if we include transmith (I don't think we should), then we should exchange this for Greater Dispel.

We aren't.



2. Scrying--> This is interesting as it highlights the the challenge of comparing spells from multiple lists with disparate level progression. Yes, it is a level 3 spell to a bard. However, Bards don't get level 3 spells until 7th. As such, the cost to the bard is the same as (perhaps greater than) the cost of a 4th level spell to a wizard/cleric. This is not to say that you should remove it. However, you may want to consider how to weigh spells from lists that don't get to 9th level spells.

For now, I've just left it ineligible for the ECL6 list. Alternatives?



3. Darkfire--> I am not convinced here. Unless you persist, you must wait a round between casting and using. The damage is single target and only 10d6 until level 15. I can see how this would be useful with persist for non-melee persist builds. However, my sense is that most DMM clerics would replace it with a higher level spell fairly quickly.

What higher level spells do you have in mind?

At character level 11 it's reasonably straightforward to persist a maximized (by rod) Darkfire and persist Divine Power while leveraging Mark of the Enlightened Soul during casting. That gives you three iteratives dealing 45 damage each. 3x 45 damage at range 120' is well over half the average hit points of a CR 11 creature (164) so it's decent but not overwhelming medium range archery. At higher levels, you can pick up a 4th iterative, throw in persistent Holy Star, and possibly pick up the TWF line via Anyspell[Heroics] so you can also throw with your off hand.



4. Venomfire--> I am not a huge fan of this. It only seems to be really good with creatures with multiple poisonous attacks (aka Fleshrakers). However, the creature is still limited to melee and must make a successful attack role. My bigger issue is that the spell appears to be an example of an error by omission. The DMG has fairly stringent guidelines for how spell damage should progress. It is possible that the drafters intended Venomfire to ignore those limits. However, I think it is more likely that they just forgot to add the CL damage cap clause to the spell.

Spells whose overwhelming effect makes us think that the intention must have been something other than what is written are a bit tricky to handle. My inclination is to just take them at face value because I don't have a good way to limit second-guessing.

You are right about the melee limitation, which is why I am actively looking for ranged damage options.


5. Magic Vestment--> I would argue for GMW over the vestment b/c: 1) offense is the best defense; and 2) magic weapons cost more than magic armor. I am also not convinced that AC is viable long term nor that magic armor shields are a strong way to get high AC.

Interesting. My impression is that Magic Vestment + polymorph effects + light armor works out pretty well in keeping your AC competitive vs. most adversaries. For example, at ECL20 a baseline choice is PAO[Kelvezu] which gives AC35. Throwing on a shield with a +5 enhance you get AC 42. Adding Reinforced Thistledown padded armor and a Dastana with a +5 enhance, you reach AC 50. That's good enough to mostly shutdown a Balor (attack bonus +33) or a Pit Fiend (attack bonus +30), and even keep a Black Wyrm (attack bonus +42) from going nuts with power attack.

One thought though is that Magic Vestment is extremely common on domain lists---it's fairly reasonable to leverage Substitute Domain for access.



6. Girtilion's Blessing- This is a good buff but I think the 10 min/lvl (as opposed to 1 hr/lvl) keeps this from the top 10.
There's a good case that it shouldn't be an ECL6 choice given the duration.


There is no universe where this spell belongs on your list but haste doesn't. 1d6/level is extremely bad damage scaling.
At ECL6, an EL6 encounter might consist of 4 CR 2 creatures with an average of 21 hitpoints each. Fireball hits for an average of 21 hit points when the save is failed, so "sorcerer casts fireball and the rest of the party mops up with archery" ends the encounter in an extremely straightforward fashion. Note here that this is a totally vanilla fireball---a spellcaster actually optimized for it might be a sorcerer with the fire sphere (+1 caster level), bloodline of fire (+2 caster level) and Reserves of Strength (+3 caster level), dealing 12d6 fire damage so creatures drop even if they save.

Part of the utility of Fireball is in having a solution to the long range damage problem. In a party of 4, if one character casts haste as an opening move the other 3 characters could leverage the haste for an extra attack. What three ECL6 ranged attacks do you imagine the party using to deal (say) 63 hp at long range?



I have no idea why you have this at "only CL 20". If anything, it's even better at CL 6 when people's Sense Motive modifiers are lower.

Glibness is also unavailable for the core classes at ECL6.



Eh, differently, not more. There are lots of spells substitute domain gets you that are, you know, higher than 2nd level.

That's fair.



Also it's not really clear that you can use it multiple times per day even if you find some way to cast it multiple times per day. It explicitly says the spell you prepare "occupies your 3rd-level domain spell slot", so what it does in the event that you cast it more times than you have domain slots is really anyone's guess.

I'm not seeing the ambiguity.

Cast Anyspell->memorize arcane spell in domain slot.
Cast arcane spell from domain slot.
Cast Anyspell->memorize arcane spell in domain slot.
Cast arcane spell from domain slot.
...
Why can't this be repeated until you run out of Anyspell?



...[haste] is definitely better than girallon's blessing

Girallon's Blessing generates 2 extra attacks/round while Haste generates ~2.5 by your accounting. However, Girallon's Blessing also lasts much longer (so there is a better chance that you can enter an encounter with it precast) and of course it has other uses as well. Roughly speaking, if haste was a swift action I'd see it as reasonably comparable.



You mean the sense that literally every single core CR 20 monster has and which you can get from a 2nd level spell slot with hours/level duration? Who is this hiding from that you care about hiding stuff from? "Oh good, the 3rd level human commoner who I can vaporize without having to roll dice can't tell that I have lazer hands, this is critical to my ability to murder demon princes."

It's not even that great of a disguise at CL 6, because the game loves handing out darkvision. The Annis? Darkvision. Babau? Darkvision. Belker? Darkvision. Bralani? Darkvision. I guess if you run into an Ettin you can be secure in knowing it can't see your invisible fire. But every Kobold, Goblin, Dwarf, Orc, Drow, Gnoll, and Troglodyte can. Seriously, this is like the most common bonus sense the game gives things, "invisible to people who don't have Darkvision" might as well be flavortext.

I agree darkvision is common.

(more later)

[RandomPeasant]

For now, I've just left it ineligible for the ECL6 list. Alternatives?

My alternative would be that setting things up so that the set of things that count as 3rd level spells changes between 6th and 20th level is deeply unintuitive and you should commit to a lane.


At character level 11 it's reasonably straightforward to persist a maximized (by rod) Darkfire and persist Divine Power while leveraging Mark of the Enlightened Soul during casting. That gives you three iteratives dealing 45 damage each. 3x 45 damage at range 120' is well over half the average hit points of a CR 11 creature (164) so it's decent but not overwhelming medium range archery. At higher levels, you can pick up a 4th iterative, throw in persistent Holy Star, and possibly pick up the TWF line via Anyspell[Heroics] so you can also throw with your off hand.

What's your basis for expecting it to work with TWF? For that matter, what's your basis for expecting it to work with iteratives at all?


Interesting. My impression is that Magic Vestment + polymorph effects + light armor works out pretty well in keeping your AC competitive vs. most adversaries. For example, at ECL20 a baseline choice is PAO[Kelvezu] which gives AC35.

I would not call that a "baseline" choice, no.


At ECL6, an EL6 encounter might consist of 4 CR 2 creatures with an average of 21 hitpoints each.

But it is substantially more likely to consist of a CR 6 monster, none of which fireball is worth mentioning against. Even in the event that you fight multiple monsters, they might be immune to fire (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Small_Fire_Elemental) or have enough HP to survive an average damage roll (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Ape). It is even technically possible for them to have enough HP to survive a maximum damage roll (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Bugbear_Zombie).


a spellcaster actually optimized for it might be a sorcerer with the fire sphere (+1 caster level), bloodline of fire (+2 caster level) and Reserves of Strength (+3 caster level), dealing 12d6 fire damage so creatures drop even if they save.

So you think the correct standard for optimizing animate dead is one in which you get 48 hit dice of undead at CL 6 and still believe "but what if we were all sneaky instead" is a reasonably competitive alternative?


What three ECL6 ranged attacks do you imagine the party using to deal (say) 63 hp at long range?

What do you expect fireball to do that does more than 0 damage in the second round of a combat? I suppose you might say "be cast again", but I think the spells you can cast once are vastly superior to the ones you need to cast over and over. Damage at Long range is a real niche for fireball, but it's a niche, not something that gets you into the top ten. Unlike dispel magic, I'm not sure "damage at Long range" is even in the top ten niches you want covered as a 6th level character.


Glibness is also unavailable for the core classes at ECL6.

I think it is extremely silly to have your rules work in such a way that we count glibness as a 3rd level spell at 20th level because Bards technically cast it out a 3rd level slot, but to ignore the existence of both the Trapsmith (who casts much better spells out of 3rd level slots at 20th level) and the Beguiler (who casts it out of a 3rd level slot at 6th level). Either make the list about people who cast 9th level spells and ignore all the accelerated casters, or include the accelerated casters and make the list fully accurate for any Artificer or Archivist who stumbles across it.


Why can't this be repeated until you run out of Anyspell?

How many 3rd level domain slots do you have? Even if we grant that you can use 4th or 5th level domain slots (presumably the 6th and higher ones are going to greater anyspell), how many 2nd level spells are there that really make that worth it?


Girallon's Blessing generates 2 extra attacks/round while Haste generates ~2.5 by your accounting. However, Girallon's Blessing also lasts much longer (so there is a better chance that you can enter an encounter with it precast) and of course it has other uses as well. Roughly speaking, if haste was a swift action I'd see it as reasonably comparable.

haste generates 2.5 as a floor. But as noted, it gets much better if you have minions, which you are going to do. girallon's blessing has a nice duration, but it doesn't come close to matching haste for output at even very modest levels of optimization (e.g. that Cleric uses the animate dead they know automatically and you target Fighter + Rogue + four zombies).

[Chronos]

I'm going to step in here to defend Shrink Item, for several reasons:

1: It's pretty good as an attack spell. Get some Colossal-sized darts made, and shrink them: That's a 3d6 ranged weapon that anyone can use. Or shrink a very large bonfire (explicitly possible, per the spell): It's not as good a fire attack as an actual Fireball is, but it's still a fire attack if you want it. Or, remember that giant boulder in Raiders of the Lost Ark? Have one of your very own!

2: It can be used directly to eliminate obstacles. Path blocked by an adamantium door? You could do the DM's little sidequest to find the key, or you could just put it in your pocket.

3: Carry out loot. That life-sized solid gold ogre mage statue is a great trinket.

4: General utility. Anything you might ever want to bring with you, you can. Boats, winches, walls, pipe organs, whatever.

5: The days/level duration means that you can make use of it without having to spend spell slots. Cast it a bunch during downtime, and then just prepare different spells for use on adventuring days (if you really want; it can be useful on adventuring days, too).

[eggynack]

I think it is extremely silly to have your rules work in such a way that we count glibness as a 3rd level spell at 20th level because Bards technically cast it out a 3rd level slot, but to ignore the existence of both the Trapsmith (who casts much better spells out of 3rd level slots at 20th level) and the Beguiler (who casts it out of a 3rd level slot at 6th level). Either make the list about people who cast 9th level spells and ignore all the accelerated casters, or include the accelerated casters and make the list fully accurate for any Artificer or Archivist who stumbles across it.
Yeah, bards definitely feel more on the line than beguilers. They're also less on the line than trapsmiths, in the sense that I could see there being a rule against prestige classes specifically. Bards are definitely a bit wonky though. Are there all that many slow casters where this is a serious problem? Cause it's entirely plausible that this distinction makes little difference when you include beguilers.

[RandomPeasant]

Yeah, bards definitely feel more on the line than beguilers. They're also less on the line than trapsmiths, in the sense that I could see there being a rule against prestige classes specifically. Bards are definitely a bit wonky though. Are there all that many slow casters where this is a serious problem? Cause it's entirely plausible that this distinction makes little difference when you include beguilers.

I think "no PrC lists" is probably fine, because that's a clear bright line, and it does mostly fix the problem. That said, you still get some weirdness with the Ranger and Paladin (e.g. 1st level lesser restoration), and there are things that are accelerated on the Bard list but not on the Beguiler list (or on it at their regular levels). charm person and mindblank are probably the most relevant there. There might also be some stuff from domains, though if you exclude domains you lose anyspell and greater anyspell, which are both legitimately notable. There's not really a perfect solution, though I think the one currently being used is notably worse than alternatives.

[Fero]

I think "no PrC lists" is probably fine, because that's a clear bright line, and it does mostly fix the problem. That said, you still get some weirdness with the Ranger and Paladin (e.g. 1st level lesser restoration), and there are things that are accelerated on the Bard list but not on the Beguiler list (or on it at their regular levels). charm person and mindblank are probably the most relevant there. There might also be some stuff from domains, though if you exclude domains you lose anyspell and greater anyspell, which are both legitimately notable. There's not really a perfect solution, though I think the one currently being used is notably worse than alternatives.

What if the rules are: 1- No PRC lists; 2- If the spell appears on both a class that gets lvl 9 spells, and a class that does not (bards etc.) use the full casting class that gets the spell at the lowest level; and 3- if the spell does not appear on a full caster list, use the level as printed?

[RandomPeasant]

What if the rules are: 1- No PRC lists; 2- If the spell appears on both a class that gets lvl 9 spells, and a class that does not (bards etc.) use the full casting class that gets the spell at the lowest level; and 3- if the spell does not appear on a full caster list, use the level as printed?

This results in treating animate dead as a 2nd level spell, which is not an accurate representation of how it will appear in most games. You can fix that by adding one more patch along the lines of "Big Three > Other Fullcasters > Everyone Else", but at that point your rules are just kinda complicated and that has costs of its own. FWIW I think that is the best solution, and the one I would use, but it's still a ways off from being an ideal solution.

[Fero]

This results in treating animate dead as a 2nd level spell, which is not an accurate representation of how it will appear in most games. You can fix that by adding one more patch along the lines of "Big Three > Other Fullcasters > Everyone Else", but at that point your rules are just kinda complicated and that has costs of its own. FWIW I think that is the best solution, and the one I would use, but it's still a ways off from being an ideal solution.

Animate Dead at 2nd is Dragon, right? Either way, I think it is worth asking whether to include Dragon content. Also either way, your point is well taken. It is fairly complex but seems to be the most workable solution.

[pabelfly]

If you were considering Ranger and Paladin spells, you'd also have to consider the chassises come on, with very limited spell slots, slow progression for the most part, and 4th level spells. I think all Ranger and Paladin spells would be thus disqualified.

[RandomPeasant]

If you were considering Ranger and Paladin spells, you'd also have to consider the chassises come on, with very limited spell slots, slow progression for the most part, and 4th level spells. I think all Ranger and Paladin spells would be thus disqualified.

That depends on what you think the list is for. There are classes like the Artificer and Archivist who can pick up spells based only on level, so the question "what is the most powerful spell that is 4th level on any list" is important for someone playing them. Another possibility is something like "how powerful of an effect can a character of this level produce", which I think is a reasonable question to ask and for which I think something like "what can full casters do" is the right framework. You can sort of make the argument that we should ignore spell level and only care about caster level, but I don't think there are any cases where e.g. a 3rd level Bard spell is better at CL 7 than the 4th level spells available to Wizards or Clerics, so in practice that doesn't matter.

[ciopo]

ranger/paladin are a nonconsideration for me: 3rd level paladin/ranger spells are not ECL 6, they'd only really factor for wand use, such as a paladin-sourced wand of lesser restoration being only 1500gp compared to 4500gp of traditional cleric wand of lesser restoration, but does that factor as "Nth level spell usable at ECL X" ? wbl'o'mancy do not mold to ECL/spell level access, we could have a wish scroll at level 1 for all we know, does that make wish an awesome ECL1 spell? (well, yes, but I think I made my point)

[sleepyphoenixx]

ranger/paladin are a nonconsideration for me: 3rd level paladin/ranger spells are not ECL 6, they'd only really factor for wand use, such as a paladin-sourced wand of lesser restoration being only 1500gp compared to 4500gp of traditional cleric wand of lesser restoration, but does that factor as "Nth level spell usable at ECL X" ? wbl'o'mancy do not mold to ECL/spell level access, we could have a wish scroll at level 1 for all we know, does that make wish an awesome ECL1 spell? (well, yes, but I think I made my point)

Even in core-only you can get access to off-list spells via Limited Wish and Miracle, so they belong on the ECL 20 list at least. Especially since some of them are very good, like Favor of the Martyr.
And there's no shortage of ways to get early access to those spells in non-core, like Mystic Ranger or Silver Pyromancer. Or just being an Archivist.

[ciopo]

Even in core-only you can get access to off-list spells via Limited Wish and Miracle, so they belong on the ECL 20 list at least. Especially since some of them are very good, like Favor of the Martyr.
And there's no shortage of ways to get early access to those spells in non-core, like Mystic Ranger or Silver Pyromancer. Or just being an Archivist.

I don't feel like you've refuted my point. Choosing to emulate this or that spell with limited wish / miracle / wish... is not really indicative of this or that spell making a top 10 cut. Because whatever you wish for is whatever is most appropriate at the situation at hand, you could wish for "whatever solves this situation" and bang, done. If you have access to limited wish at ECL6, your top 100 list will be limited wish repeated 100 times

You nominate favor of the martyr.

Sure, it's nice, is it an ECL8/4th level resource? To me, no, it isn't because to source it you "need" a 14th level paladin. So either you're at about that ecl or since you're doing wbl to get "ahead of the curve" you might as well go for broke and bring out way bigger guns... while still not having much of a bearing onto what a character would learn at level up / prepare day to day


I accept/concede the ECL20 point, but that's more a "wish/miracle is top1, for sure" than a "whatever wish/miracle emulates is top1, for sure".

Little amusing side-anedocte: my default play-state for limited wish/wish is to use it to emulate other spells, because my brain absolutely hate the open-ended "anything you can think" of the otherwise narratively open use.

On two different groups now, I've butted heads on this :D because older schools fellows friends view wish/miracle as a much more romantic thing, to be used only for big "story correction" things, and not my utilitarian view on it (get inherents/emulate spells). Basically, to paraphrase them, "if you aren't completely changing course of a capaign with a wish, you aren't using it right/ you're wasting it", whereas I'm all "I prepare limited wish just in case whatever situation I find myself in would be uniquely perfectly solved by this or that obscure spell I would never otherwise prepare"

[Anthrowhale]

shivering touch is weird here because it is probably best in like the CL 8-10 range where you have enough resources to remove its downsides, but are not so high level that immunities start to become a concern. But at 6th level it is meaningfully difficult to get off, and at 20th level it is not too much of a problem to engineer immunity to. That said, it probably makes the list just cause the effect it does is so goddamn obscene. Certainly over fireball.

My hesitation with Shivering Touch is that it's relatively redundant with Finger Darts which we don't even currently have on the L2 list.


animate dead is probably the single best 3rd level spell except maybe shivering touch, and even then has an advantage in practice because it's way easier to use in ways that will not result in your DM banning it.

A few thoughts here:

You can also potentially leverage Fell Animate at this level, so it's not a completely unique effect.
How are you getting 20HD zombies at ECL6?
I'm still quite skeptical that these minions contribute in any meaningful way at ECL20.



My issue with major image is that while it is objectively powerful, I am not sure how often the marginal advantage it offers you over minor image or even silent image is. A lot of the images you want to make are of walls or other static stuff, and it doesn't really matter if those smell right.

I'm somewhat in agreement.



The party is not going to stealth unless the entire party optimizes for that.

That seems fair.



I'm just not super convinced it belongs on the list. Dispelling might make the top ten effects that you want a character to have, but I am not convinced that dispel magic is the tenth-strongest spell at 3rd level. There are probably a half-dozen spells that are better than it before you even start considering non-combat effects.

Noted. There's a fair case that we can just get by with Arcane Turmoil w.r.t. actual use of dispelling. I am somewhat concerned about counterspelling though---that's pretty handy against spellcasters, and spellcasters are definitely an opponent to be concerned with.



If you're including scrying, I do not see how you justify not having charm monster on your list.

Well, it would have to be on the ECL20 list. Is it worthwhile at ECL20 in comparison to more powerful effects (like dominate monster)?



Maxed-out darkfire averages 17.5 damage per attack

Your 'maxed out' seems to be substantially lower than mine.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I don't feel like you've refuted my point. Choosing to emulate this or that spell with limited wish / miracle / wish... is not really indicative of this or that spell making a top 10 cut. Because whatever you wish for is whatever is most appropriate at the situation at hand, you could wish for "whatever solves this situation" and bang, done. If you have access to limited wish at ECL6, your top 100 list will be limited wish repeated 100 times
It doesn't matter HOW you produce the spell effect, only if it's good or not. Otherwise it wouldn't be worth emulating, especially with a spell that costs you XP every time you use it.

You're also completely ignoring the second part of that argument regarding non-core sources of off-list access.


You nominate favor of the martyr.

Sure, it's nice, is it an ECL8/4th level resource? To me, no, it isn't because to source it you "need" a 14th level paladin. So either you're at about that ecl or since you're doing wbl to get "ahead of the curve" you might as well go for broke and bring out way bigger guns... while still not having much of a bearing onto what a character would learn at level up / prepare day to day
You don't need a 14th level paladin. Ways to Expand a Spell List (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?646021-Ways-to-Expand-a-Spell-List) aren't particularly rare.
A Silver Pyromancer gets access to paladin spells at ECL 7-8. A Mystic Ranger gets access to 4th level ranger spells at ECL 8.

And even without those an Archivist buying a scroll to copy isn't "doing wbl to get ahead of the curve" any more than a fighter who buys a +1 greatsword, he's playing the class the way it's intended and how people will use it in an actual game.


I accept/concede the ECL20 point, but that's more a "wish/miracle is top1, for sure" than a "whatever wish/miracle emulates is top1, for sure".
Except it's not, because presumably you'd like to use those slots to cast 9th level spells instead of emulating lower-level ones.
Thankfully in non-core there are vastly more options for off-list spell access than just those. Most of them better since they don't cost you 9th level slots or XP.


Basically, to paraphrase them, "if you aren't completely changing course of a capaign with a wish, you aren't using it right/ you're wasting it", whereas I'm all "I prepare limited wish just in case whatever situation I find myself in would be uniquely perfectly solved by this or that obscure spell I would never otherwise prepare"

Well, there's a world of difference between using Wish (5k xp), Limited Wish (300xp) or Miracle (0xp) for spell emulation.
If you're going to blow a Wish to emulate a spell it better be a campaign-changer, but if you're using Miracle all it costs you is a spell slot for the day so the cost-benefit treshold is much lower.

It's true enough though that many players are unreasonably against spending even small amounts of XP.

[Anthrowhale]

My alternative would be that setting things up so that the set of things that count as 3rd level spells changes between 6th and 20th level is deeply unintuitive and you should commit to a lane.

Which in your mind should be?


What's your basis for expecting it to work with TWF? For that matter, what's your basis for expecting it to work with iteratives at all?

You can throw things with TWF in general. W.r.t. iteratives, Darkfire says:

No sooner do you hurl the flames than a new set appears in your hand.
which sounds comparable to a quickdrawn thrown weapon. It is fair to say the iteratives are not explicit.


I would not call that a "baseline" choice, no.

Well, how about PAO[Cornugon (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#hornedDevilCornugon)] with a mithril chain shirt+5 and a large shield+5? That's all core and has an AC of 51 (=10+19(natural)+6(dex)+4(armor)+5(armor enhance)+2(shield)+5(shield enhance)).



But it is substantially more likely to consist of a CR 6 monster,

What's the basis for this? Encounters where there is one creature per party member seem reasonably common to me?



So you think the correct standard for optimizing animate dead is one in which you get 48 hit dice of undead at CL 6 and still believe "but what if we were all sneaky instead" is a reasonably competitive alternative?

I'm not quite following the question. Certainly, being stealthy is a mechanism to avoid overwhelming encounters.



What do you expect fireball to do that does more than 0 damage in the second round of a combat?

Typically, you cast no spells if the bad guys are all down.



I think it is extremely silly to have your rules work in such a way that we count glibness as a 3rd level spell at 20th level because Bards technically cast it out a 3rd level slot, but to ignore the existence of both the Trapsmith (who casts much better spells out of 3rd level slots at 20th level) and the Beguiler (who casts it out of a 3rd level slot at 6th level). Either make the list about people who cast 9th level spells and ignore all the accelerated casters, or include the accelerated casters and make the list fully accurate for any Artificer or Archivist who stumbles across it.

I'm flexible here. People in a previous thread did not want to include Trapsmith.



How many 3rd level domain slots do you have?

Just one? I'm unclear on why you are asking.



haste generates 2.5 as a floor. But as noted, it gets much better if you have minions, which you are going to do. girallon's blessing has a nice duration, but it doesn't come close to matching haste for output at even very modest levels of optimization (e.g. that Cleric uses the animate dead they know automatically and you target Fighter + Rogue + four zombies).
There may be some playstyle variation here. In the games I've participated in, minions were not much of a thing and sometimes if the party didn't behave intelligently (i.e. sneakily) the bad guys would arrange a point of overwhelming force on the party.

[Fero]

Re: Animate Dead:



You can also potentially leverage Fell Animate at this level, so it's not a completely unique effect.
How are you getting 20HD zombies at ECL6?
I'm still quite skeptical that these minions contribute in any meaningful way at ECL20.


Re Fell Animate --> A- It only creates Zombies (no skeletons, bloodhulks, etc.) B- Zombie Dragon is a distinct template from Zombie and has no HD cap, keeps the breath weapon, etc. C- Fell Animate is +3 LA (so a Fell Animate Acid Splash isbthe same level as Animate Dead), and D- Fell Animate does not combo with Desecrate, and E- you have to kill the target with the Fell Animate, meaning it is a lot harder to Fell Animate a corpse than animate it with Animate Dead.

Re 20 HD zombies at ECL 6--> Desecrate. Alternatively CL boosters.

Re use at 20--> A- Skeletal/Zombie Dragons remain potent melee combatants (especially if you are lucky enough to find a 78 HD GW Prismatic Dragon corpse. B- Many undead continue to provide good utility (Tunnel Digging from Umber Hulks, 100' Blindsight from Destrachen, unlimited negative healing from Necrosis Carnex, invisibility/magic immunity from Awakened Will o' the Wisp, etc.). C- Minions of all sorts are useful when used correctly. Animate Dead is one of the most reliable tools to get a large number of 100% lotal minions. For example, you can give hoards of Kobald skelly's flasks of acid for high initiative touch attacks, give them boxes with Glyphs of Warding that they open once in range (like little guided missiles), give them items with White Rave Tactics to give the party unlimited turns, if you have a Warblade/Crusader in the party, combo them with War Master's Charge, etc.

Further note that this conversation has been before any significant optimization of the spell. A necromancer can A- significantly increase HP (I think about +6/+8 per HD), B- Improve stats (Corpsecrafter, etc.), C- Turn the undead into bombs (Destructive Retibution), D- give fast healing (Black Sand) and more. If you are really mean, you can cause the Censer of the Last Breath (MIC) to create Solid Fogs that slow living creatures, but not your undead. There are numerous guidebooks and builds, such as Uttercold Assault, built around this spell.

Animate Dead punches well above its weight. In fact, if you made a list of top 10 lvl 5 Wizard spells, I would include this spell on that list as well. The ability to easily create large numbers of 100% loyal, disposable, high HD, template bases minions that require little to no maintenance is just too good to pass up.

Ultimately, I think the major problems with this spell are fairly meta: 1- it is [evil], 2-Paladins etc. hunt down necromancers, and 3- Miniomancy slows down gameplay. These concerns are appropriate to discuss but, at least thus far, don't appear to be significant considerations for this list.

As an aside, are we considering Dragon content for these lists?

[Anthrowhale]

Re Animate Dead
I can see how it could be effective at ECL6. The case for ECL20 isn't really made for me yet. W.r.t. dragons, you're unlikely to have available anything much larger than CR20, and then they have several downsides:
(a) Gargantuan/colossal doesn't fit.
(b) Move _or_ attack, not both.
(c) Breath Weapon nerfed to half damage.
(d) Only one attack as a standard action.
(e) AC nerfed by natural armor/2.
Overall, it's an awkward and relatively impotent minion. A CR of original /2 +1 (i.e. 11) seems illustrative.


Re Explosive Runes
Ok.



Re Water to Acid:
I see how you can give it to otherwise ineffective minions, but the low damage output makes the strategy suspect. There's some real utility as well, but I'm not sure it top-10.


I'm going to step in here to defend Shrink Item,
There's good utility here. However, I'm a bit overwhelmed with options at the moment.

Animate Dead at ECL 6 seems like a "yes".
Anticipate Teleportation @ECL20
Battlemagic Perception @ECL20?
Explosive Runes @ECL6&20?
A wall?
Shrink Item?

[Anthrowhale]

This results in treating animate dead as a 2nd level spell, which is not an accurate representation of how it will appear in most games. You can fix that by adding one more patch along the lines of "Big Three > Other Fullcasters > Everyone Else", but at that point your rules are just kinda complicated and that has costs of its own. FWIW I think that is the best solution, and the one I would use, but it's still a ways off from being an ideal solution.

Checking my understanding: the proposal is to treat spell level as the level of first access by Cleric/Druid/Wizard if available. If it's not, you use the level of first access by any other L9 caster. Failing that you use the level of availability by any other caster. Correct?

[Anthrowhale]

Re: Animate Dead:
I'm tracking the usage proposed but still wondering if the undead minions would just be slaughtered at ECL20.


As an aside, are we considering Dragon content for these lists?
Yes. One function of these lists is surfacing particularly interesting exotic spells.

[Quertus]

I was hoping not to post in these threads, as I knew that, if I did, I'd have to open with, "whatever spells you invent yourself are the best". However, a few things have been said that I just can't let slide.

The biggest, of course, is that Animate Dead isn't in the #1 spot for best 3rd level spells. When combo'd with Rebuke Undead, you can change the economy of your nation with commanding and releasing mindless undead, leaving uncontrolled skeletons to continue performing mindless manual labor. What other spell has anywhere near the power of Animate Dead - even most 9th level spells cast by 20th level casters usually pale before this.


ECL6 only:
[LIST=1]
W Fireball (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireball.htm). Evocation[Fire]. In 20' radius at long range d6/level max 10d6 fire Refl half. Initially a decent crowd control spell, but the damage cap trends towards irrelevance at higher levels.
BCOW3D4 Dispel Magic (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm). Abjuration. Dispel check of 1d20+caster level max 10. Adds Area dispel and counterspell to what Arcane Turmoil can do.

Fireball is much better at CL 20 than it is at CL 6. At CL 6, you're just ending a level-appropriate encounter against fodder. At CL 20, you're clearing out a crowded tunnel/street so that your Ubercharger can turn the BBEG / boss monster / king / whatever into a thin red mist. As an added bonus, at CL 20, the Ubercharger doesn't mind if you hit them with the Fireball in the process.

Dispel Magic might deserve some mention at higher levels with a really generous reading of Reserves of Strength.


Not sure about:
Greater Magic Weapon. It lasts a long time although perhaps a bit weaker than Greater Mighty Wallop.

+25% to hit and the ability to strike incorporeal creatures (and overcome 3.0 Damage Reduction) isn't nothing. And it benefits from caster level boosts and even the most restrictive interpretation of Reserves of Strength.


On the "probably not" list:
Mass Lesser Vigor: Heroics[Martial Stance[Martial Spirit]] instead.

Eh, is this a "bag of rats" thing? If so, then it can be table dependent out-of-combat healing, whereas one of the strengths of Persisted Mass Lesser Vigor is its more universal nature. On the one hand (assuming I'm remembering right what Stance this is), Martial Spirit doesn't just heal the party - you can pull it out when you visit the orphanage; OTOH, MLV doesn't involve murdering rats in front of children to heal them up, or the RP considerations of being known for carrying around a bag of rats (try getting a room at the inn with that reputation!).


On the "probably not" list:
Restoration: This is on the healer list, but you are probably better off using Heroics[Iron Heart Surge] to remove negative levels at ECL10+.

But that's ECL10+. The module is right now, and it expects you to have Restoration.

That said (IIRC) Resurgence and Lesser Restoration can probably cover most of your needs.

[Kalkra]

Minotaur Greathammers from MM4 are a bit better than Goliath Greathammers because they crit on a 19.

I don't really see the comparison between Shivering Touch and Lahm's Finger Darts. Shivering Touch can take out any creature with a low enough Dex, notably dragons, whereas Lahm's Finger Darts can only do 1d4 Dex damage per creature, which at best is -2 to AC unless you're casting it a bunch of times.

Rather than tricks with dispelling another person's Explosive Runes, you can justhave somebody with a good spot check read the runes from a safe distance, which saves on spells or wand charges and action economy. You can't do a whole book that way, but one page should be enough.

Where does Soul Charge come from?

[Troacctid]

I think Boccob's rolling cloud and flame sands are probably in the conversation here. Heart of water is also a strong contender IMO.

[Amidus Drexel]

Stone Shape is situational (you must be in an environment with sufficient stone), but it has a lot of utility early and doesn't really drop off until most of your enemies or the party have flight or at-will teleportation. There aren't any shape limitations beyond what fits within 10ft3 + 1ft3/level, so some unusual shapes are possible (while it's mostly clear that the shape should be contiguous, the spell lists a volume and not a box or range (beyond touching the stone), so you can make long and narrow things with the spell, like a series of handholds up a cliff face or a narrow tunnel to crawl through).

At level 6, you're working with 16ft3, which is enough to make a door, pit, wall, stairs, pillar, chest-high-wall, or other combat-relevant piece of terrain with a touch. At higher levels you can move enough stone to wall off or drastically alter the battlefield at non-melee ranges too. Out of combat, you can use it to get into or out of stone areas (both vertically and horizontally) and erect or destroy crude stone structures, or protect a safe area to rest in.

At level 20, it's a battlefield control spell that doesn't offer a save or spell resistance (though a DM would be well within their rights to offer one to somebody about to be encased in stone) that affects a pretty large volume of stone (30ft3 is enough to entomb a gargantuan creature). I think it has less utility at this level due to the sheer amount of enemies that are strong enough to break through stone or can ignore it for other reasons, and its out of combat utility drops off as your party gets the same kind of mobility options.

[Anthrowhale]

Minotaur Greathammers from MM4 are a bit better than Goliath Greathammers because they crit on a 19.
Adjusted the text.



I don't really see the comparison between Shivering Touch and Lahm's Finger Darts. Shivering Touch can take out any creature with a low enough Dex, notably dragons, whereas Lahm's Finger Darts can only do 1d4 Dex damage per creature, which at best is -2 to AC unless you're casting it a bunch of times.

The relevant text is:

If the caster shoots multiple darts, she can have them strike a single creature or several creatures. A single dart can strike only one creature.
My interpretation of this is that a single dart strikes one creature (not two) but that multiple darts can target a single creature. Hence, Finger Darts can do 5d4 dex damage to a single creature natively.



Where does Soul Charge come from?
It's online (https://web.archive.org/web/20150920173746/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040818a).


I think Boccob's rolling cloud and flame sands are probably in the conversation here. Heart of water is also a strong contender IMO.
Rolling Cloud trades off with fireball by losing range in favor of difficulty to resist and a fail-2-saves daze rider. It's definitely good, but there are many more options for doing damage at close range. Is that worthwhile?

Flame Sands is medium range d6/level max 10d6 striking a creature with a ranged touch attack each round for level rounds. There's an interpretation issue: is it a standard action (as eggynack suggests) or a move action (as you have suggested)? Restated, are you redirecting a spell (a move action) or making a ranged attack (a standard action)? It seems to be both suggesting the more restrictive standard action? Anyways, this seems marginally better than Darkfire at ECL6 but not at ECL20.

Heart of Water is in there.


Stone Shape
Definitely a good spell, but at the moment I'm thinking Shrink Item is plausibly more generally useful?

[RandomPeasant]

I accept/concede the ECL20 point, but that's more a "wish/miracle is top1, for sure" than a "whatever wish/miracle emulates is top1, for sure".

I disagree with that. To my mind, the natural reading of this list is "to cast out of an Xth level spell slot".


that's pretty handy against spellcasters, and spellcasters are definitely an opponent to be concerned with.

There are spells you can prepare that are good against spellcasters and also in encounters with no spellcasters. Counterspelling is not an awful strategy, but it is a strategy that requires specific dynamics to be worthwhile and additional investment to be good. This is not true of casting, like, major image or great thunderclap.


Your 'maxed out' seems to be substantially lower than mine.

I mean, sure, if you assume you have a Rod of Maximize and other spells supporting it, it gets better. If we're assuming that, why is shivering touch not at the top of the list? 18 DEX damage kills a lot of stuff.


Checking my understanding: the proposal is to treat spell level as the level of first access by Cleric/Druid/Wizard if available. If it's not, you use the level of first access by any other L9 caster. Failing that you use the level of availability by any other caster. Correct?

Which in your mind should be?

My view is that there are two reasonable ways to handle the question "what qualifies as a 3rd level spell". The first is "does it appear as a 3rd level spell on any spell list". This has the advantage of simplicity and of being useful for people who are playing Artificers. It has the disadvantage of creating a list that is not very useful in a lot of other contexts, like playing a Wizard or Spirit Shaman, or a DM who will not allow you to scribe scrolls of 1st level haste just because Trapsmiths exist. The second is, to try and make it as explicit as possible:

1. Does it appear on a Core full caster list? If so, it's the lowest level it appears at among those lists.
2. Does it appear on a non-Core full caster list? If so, it's the lowest level it appears at among those lists.
3. Does it appear on a Core partial caster list? If so, it's the lowest level it appears at among those lists.
4. Does it appear on a non-Core partial caster list? If so, it is the lowest level it appears at among those lists.

Some people have also proposed "PrCs don't count", which I think is fair, but which I'm not convinced is necessary on top of those rules. This setup has pretty much exactly the opposite set of advantages and disadvantages, in that it is pretty complicated, but should mostly match what you can reasonably expect to happen in play.

But I think any system where "is this a 3rd level spell" changes based on what your caster level is a bad idea because that's not really how spell levels work.


Well, how about PAO[Cornugon (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#hornedDevilCornugon)] with a mithril chain shirt+5 and a large shield+5? That's all core and has an AC of 51 (=10+19(natural)+6(dex)+4(armor)+5(armor enhance)+2(shield)+5(shield enhance)).

I think if your assumption about gameplay is "we all sneak around so the BBEG doesn't ambush is, people get PAO'd into combat forms, but no one has any minions", your assumptions about gameplay are far enough outside the norm that you should probably not be putting together a list of best spells for general consumption.


What's the basis for this? Encounters where there is one creature per party member seem reasonably common to me?

The DM doesn't want to play four characters any more than you do. But, sure, those encounters don't not exist. The issue is that fireball is "pretty good" into them (as noted, it is very possible to have a multi-creaturee fight it doesn't come close to winning), and "very bad" into anything with one enemy. That does not make a top ten spell.


Typically, you cast no spells if the bad guys are all down.

Typically, fireball does not put down all the bad guys.


Re Fell Animate --> A- It only creates Zombies (no skeletons, bloodhulks, etc.) B- Zombie Dragon is a distinct template from Zombie and has no HD cap, keeps the breath weapon, etc. C- Fell Animate is +3 LA (so a Fell Animate Acid Splash isbthe same level as Animate Dead), and D- Fell Animate does not combo with Desecrate, and E- you have to kill the target with the Fell Animate, meaning it is a lot harder to Fell Animate a corpse than animate it with Animate Dead.

Also Fell Animate takes a feat, and animate dead is free. Well, it's free for a Cleric, who is presumably who you're talking about if you think animate dead is a 3rd level spell. But that gets you into another "who is this list for" conversation, because there are also Favored Souls and Generic Spellcasters (for whom animate dead is actually quite expensive) and Archivists (for whom it's not technically free, but is quite cheap).


In fact, if you made a list of top 10 lvl 5 Wizard spells, I would include this spell on that list as well.

It's a 4th level spell for Wizards, and I do think it makes that list. I'm not really convinced it would make it onto the 5th level list, because at that point you have dominate person and lesser planar binding.


I can see how it could be effective at ECL6. The case for ECL20 isn't really made for me yet.

Part of the problem there is how you've defined the list. I think "animate dead falls off at 20th level" is a totally fair point to make. But animate dead holds up much better than most 3rd level spells at 10th or 12th level.


I don't really see the comparison between Shivering Touch and Lahm's Finger Darts. Shivering Touch can take out any creature with a low enough Dex, notably dragons, whereas Lahm's Finger Darts can only do 1d4 Dex damage per creature, which at best is -2 to AC unless you're casting it a bunch of times.

Yeah finger darts seems much worse than shivering touch. Even if you fudge things a bit and assume we're talking about 7th level (when you get the third dart) it's still 7.5 average damage to shivering touch's 10.5, which is a very significant difference. And that's an extremely favorable comparison for finger darts, at the level when shivering touch becomes available finger darts is averaging half the DEX damage.

[Fero]

Re Animate Dead being 4th (not 5th) level--> I always forgot they made that change when they doubled the HD limits. I still think it would be competitive for lvl 5 :p

[Quertus]

Re Animate Dead being 4th (not 5th) level--> I always forgot they made that change when they doubled the HD limits. I still think it would be competitive for lvl 5 :p

When did who do this?

[Fero]

When did who do this?

Animate Dead was 3 cleric/5 wizard and only let you animate undead with HD up to your CL, and control undead up to 2*CL in 3.0. The 3.5 conversion reduced the spell level for wizards from 5 to 4 while simultaneously doubling the HD you can create from a single casting as well as the HD you can control.

I mentioned above that Animate Dead was good for a 5th level wizard spell b/c I forgot WotC changed it to a 4th level wizard spell with the 3.5 conversion.

At least I didn't get into the Thac0 calculations. :p

[Chronos]

Quoth Amidus Drexel:

At level 20, it's a battlefield control spell that doesn't offer a save or spell resistance (though a DM would be well within their rights to offer one to somebody about to be encased in stone) that affects a pretty large volume of stone (30ft3 is enough to entomb a gargantuan creature).
30 cubic feet (the maximum volume for Stone Shape) is a wall 6' tall by 10' wide by six inches thick. You could increase the length or width by decreasing the thickness further, but gargantuan creatures tend to be pretty strong, and a stone wall is going to get weak if it's too thin. I think you might have been misreading it as a cube 30' on a side, but that's 27,000 cubic feet.

Stone Shape is still a useful spell, for the versatility, and you might be able to do something like close off a dungeon corridor (especially if your enemy doesn't know that the corridor wasn't already a dead end, and so doesn't try to smash through it). But it's not a great spell for in-combat use, and probably not good enough for the Top 10 list.

[Anthrowhale]

I swapped in Animate dead at ECL6 for Darkfire.

Other candidates (for my tracking):
Greater Magic Weapon,
Disobedience,
Anticipate Teleportation @ECL20
Battlemagic Perception @ECL20?
Explosive Runes @ECL6&20?
A wall?
Shrink Item?



The biggest, of course, is that Animate Dead isn't in the #1 spot for best 3rd level spells. When combo'd with Rebuke Undead, you can change the economy of your nation with commanding and releasing mindless undead, leaving uncontrolled skeletons to continue performing mindless manual labor. What other spell has anywhere near the power of Animate Dead - even most 9th level spells cast by 20th level casters usually pale before this.

Necrotic robots could be a great labor source, but the economics side of things usually isn't to important in campaigns?



Dispel Magic might deserve some mention at higher levels with a really generous reading of Reserves of Strength.

We're not doing the generous reading.



+25% to hit and the ability to strike incorporeal creatures (and overcome 3.0 Damage Reduction) isn't nothing. And it benefits from caster level boosts and even the most restrictive interpretation of Reserves of Strength.

Definitely potent, but I'm still not sure it's top-10 given the existing demands.



Eh, is this a "bag of rats" thing?

You don't really need to have a bag of rats. Just sparring for minimal nonlethal damage is fine.



That said (IIRC) Resurgence and Lesser Restoration can probably cover most of your needs.
Right.

[Amidus Drexel]

Definitely a good spell, but at the moment I'm thinking Shrink Item is plausibly more generally useful?

I think you could make that argument (even ignoring the anti-anti-magic lead hat). Shrink Item gets stronger as you level up, while Stone Shape stays at roughly the same utility as you level up (the difference between 15 cubic feet and 30 cubic feet is not much). Some of the problems they solve are the same (bypassing a locked door), but mostly they're attacking different kinds of problems (Shrink Item will not make a doorway, and can't make walls unless you have already shrunk one and are carrying it around - Stone Shape doesn't require advance planning, but can't help transport large objects). Day/level duration is strong, but so is instantaneous duration.


30 cubic feet (the maximum volume for Stone Shape) is a wall 6' tall by 10' wide by six inches thick. You could increase the length or width by decreasing the thickness further, but gargantuan creatures tend to be pretty strong, and a stone wall is going to get weak if it's too thin. I think you might have been misreading it as a cube 30' on a side, but that's 27,000 cubic feet.

Stone Shape is still a useful spell, for the versatility, and you might be able to do something like close off a dungeon corridor (especially if your enemy doesn't know that the corridor wasn't already a dead end, and so doesn't try to smash through it). But it's not a great spell for in-combat use, and probably not good enough for the Top 10 list.

Yep, my mistake. Editing while distracted.

I definitely wouldn't put it in the top 10 for ECL 20. It scales so poorly. At ECL 6 it's probably one of the best utility spells clerics get after Animate Dead. What's our criteria for including a spell on a Top-10 list like this? Do we have a few categories that we're putting 1-2 spells in each (e.g. best offense, best utility, best defense, best combo, best mobility, etc.)? Are we evaluating each spell in its best-case scenario, or the average case?

-----
Speaking of evaluating things already in consideration:

Magic Vestment doesn't seem all that great to me at either end of the spectrum. At ECL 6, it's a +1 enhancement bonus (which doesn't stack with existing enhancement bonuses) at a level where most characters that care about AC are already wearing +1 armor. Characters not wearing +1 armor can get Mage Armor instead for a whopping +4 armor bonus out of a 1st-level slot. At ECL 20, raw AC doesn't matter as much as touch AC (which this doesn't help) and other defenses like HP, saves, immunities, and blocking LoS/LoE - and even in the best-case scenario, it's only +5 AC per casting (at a level where many threats have +40 or better to hit).


Using Power Attack as a point of reference (-1 to hit is worth roughly +2 damage - and at ECL 20 you're going to largely be worried about saving damage from bruisers using PA in melee if you're buffing AC), and assuming four EL20 encounters:

Let's assume a front-liner who gets full-attacked (let's assume 4 hits on a full attack) maybe 50% of rounds, and single-attacked all other rounds. Let's assume 4 rounds per combat. That's 10 attacks taken per combat. Let's assume all of them hit, and you get +4 AC from Magic Vestment (assuming a +1 armor with other abilities that don't add to AC), so each hit saves 8HP in damage the monsters could have power attacked for. Over the course of the whole day, that saves you 320HP. Not bad, actually.

Frequently, though, I think this spell is going to do very little at that level - the characters who want high AC aren't relying on spell slots for it; they've spent build resources instead - and maybe more frequently AC just isn't going to matter. It's probably fine to spend your build resources buffing your other defenses and then asking the party cleric for an AC buff every morning, though.


Greater Mighty Wallop seems serviceable at ECL 20, but at ECL 6 it's usually going to average +1d6 damage/round or less, for one combat. Fireball and Flame Arrow (which can help out multiple archers and lasts 10 times as long) beat this at ECL 6, and Venomfire beats it for combo potential at both levels.

[RandomPeasant]

I would not consider greater magic vestment (or greater magic weapon, or honestly probably even greater mighty wallop) a top ten spell. They just don't do that much individually, even if they are good spells to have generally. Something being part of your buffstack doesn't make it one of the top ten spells, even if the net effect of that buffstack is very powerful.

Also, put some combat spells on the list. It's legit embarrassing to have fireball be the only one on there. This list (https://dungeons.fandom.com/wiki/Spells_that_Fvcking_Kill_People_(3.5e_Other)#Level _3) has a good selection. shivering touch should be on the top ten, and then pick whichever of the save-or-suck effects you think is best. But there is no level at which the best combat spell is the direct damage one.

[Quertus]

Necrotic robots could be a great labor source, but the economics side of things usually isn't to important in campaigns?

Depends on whether WBL is some mandated part of world physics, or whether you can buy a million gold worth of items at 5th level. :smallbiggrin:

And that’s if the PCs just hoard the benefits, instead of transforming the campaign world, which is IMO the (nigh-unmatched) strong part of the spell.


Something being part of your buffstack doesn't make it one of the top ten spells, even if the net effect of that buffstack is very powerful.

Even ignoring how that goes against the thread premise, what about things like Flight or Mind Blank? Flight and Invisibility, for example, combo into an even stronger defense than either individually would indicate.

[RandomPeasant]

Even ignoring how that goes against the thread premise, what about things like Flight or Mind Blank? Flight and Invisibility, for example, combo into an even stronger defense than either individually would indicate.

I think the idea that "cast several spells that are all buffs" constitutes a "combo" is stretching the definition of the term to the point of meaninglessness. What's the limiting principle here, exactly? I can probably find ten buffs at any given level you'd like to have up if you can, does that mean the entire top ten is just going to be those buffs? A combo is some reasonably-specific interaction that increases the value of its elements, like Persist + short duration buffs or Regeneration + immunity to whatever deals you lethal damage.

As far as you specific examples go, I don't think flight does enough to make the 3rd level list. It doesn't last all day, and it effects only a single target. overland flight might make the 5th level list, but 5th level is pretty stacked. mind blank should get in at 8th because it is an incredibly broad-spectrum immunity that naturally lasts all day. I don't particularly think Flight + Invisibility is a combo, because I don't see any more synergy between those two defenses than there is between "DR + miss chance" or "save boosters + immediate action movement" or any other combination of two defenses. Yes, any two defenses you have make you harder to kill than having just one of those defenses. By that standard every defense combos with every other defense and the word "combo" doesn't mean anything.

[Anthrowhale]

There are spells you can prepare that are good against spellcasters and also in encounters with no spellcasters. Counterspelling is not an awful strategy, but it is a strategy that requires specific dynamics to be worthwhile and additional investment to be good. This is not true of casting, like, major image or great thunderclap.

Pulling out the drawbacks more concisely:

Counterspelling is reactive.
Counterspelling tends to consume more resources than the adversary invests.
Counterspelling is caster-specific.

I'm not Major Image or Great Thunderclap are effective alternatives though. Major Image is highly vulnerable to true seeing and Great Thunderclap is a barely-more-than-a-round debuff. What we want is a shutdown mechanism that applies to spellcasters efficiently. Vision of Punishment has a Will save which isn't great. Kelpstrand grapples, which is initially decent but at higher levels the concentration check is doable. So what is a good L3- anticaster spell?



I mean, sure, if you assume you have a Rod of Maximize and other spells supporting it, it gets better. If we're assuming that, why is shivering touch not at the top of the list? 18 DEX damage kills a lot of stuff.

Technically a capture actually, which is even better in many circumstances.

Shivering touch is looking better at the moment. It takes out far more creatures with dex damage than finger darts when it's available. At higher levels it's not as much damage, but with a bit of optimization it still hits 27 dex damage which is quite decent.



1. Does it appear on a Core full caster list? If so, it's the lowest level it appears at among those lists.
2. Does it appear on a non-Core full caster list? If so, it's the lowest level it appears at among those lists.
3. Does it appear on a Core partial caster list? If so, it's the lowest level it appears at among those lists.
4. Does it appear on a non-Core partial caster list? If so, it is the lowest level it appears at among those lists.

I'm amenable to this with the proviso that domains are category 1.



I think if your assumption about gameplay is "we all sneak around so the BBEG doesn't ambush is, people get PAO'd into combat forms, but no one has any minions", your assumptions about gameplay are far enough outside the norm that you should probably not be putting together a list of best spells for general consumption.

You are welcome to make your own list, but I plan to continue here.



Part of the problem there is how you've defined the list. I think "animate dead falls off at 20th level" is a totally fair point to make. But animate dead holds up much better than most 3rd level spells at 10th or 12th level.

Just to be clear, Animate Dead is there for ECL6. I hadn't previously appreciated the capacity to create a 20HD zombie so early.

[Anthrowhale]

Magic Vestment doesn't seem all that great to me at either end of the spectrum. At ECL 6, it's a +1 enhancement bonus (which doesn't stack with existing enhancement bonuses) at a level where most characters that care about AC are already wearing +1 armor. Characters not wearing +1 armor can get Mage Armor instead for a whopping +4 armor bonus out of a 1st-level slot. At ECL 20, raw AC doesn't matter as much as touch AC (which this doesn't help) and other defenses like HP, saves, immunities, and blocking LoS/LoE - and even in the best-case scenario, it's only +5 AC per casting (at a level where many threats have +40 or better to hit).

There are a few issues with your analysis.

At high levels you can potentially cast with reach + a rod of chain spell to zap every shield and armor in the party.
When you zap the shield and armor, you provide a +8 to +10 bonus over the base enchantment, not merely+4.
As discussed above, if you are using form changing magic (e.g. polymorph), your base AC keeps up with monster attacks pretty well, so a further +10 enhancement bonus to AC makes an enormous difference in how often monsters hit, not merely how much damage they do.




Greater Mighty Wallop seems serviceable at ECL 20, but at ECL 6 it's usually going to average +1d6 damage/round or less, for one combat. Fireball and Flame Arrow (which can help out multiple archers and lasts 10 times as long) beat this at ECL 6, and Venomfire beats it for combo potential at both levels.
The point that Greater Mighty Wallop and Magic Vestment are a bit 'meh' at ECL6 seems valid. I shifted them to the ECL20 list.

[Anthrowhale]

I added Shivering Touch in.


I would not consider greater magic vestment (or greater magic weapon, or honestly probably even greater mighty wallop) a top ten spell. They just don't do that much individually, even if they are good spells to have generally. Something being part of your buffstack doesn't make it one of the top ten spells, even if the net effect of that buffstack is very powerful.
I think it depends. Greater Mighty Wallop + Persistent Wraithstrike (for example) is a pretty devastating combo for anyone doing melee. Polymorph + Magic Vestment largely solves AC (exception: superbruisers). Obscuring Snow + Snowsight solves asymmetric visibility. Two-step combos seem within the utility of a top-10 list.


Also, put some combat spells on the list. It's legit embarrassing to have fireball be the only one on there. This list (https://dungeons.fandom.com/wiki/Spells_that_Fvcking_Kill_People_(3.5e_Other)#Level _3) has a good selection. shivering touch should be on the top ten, and then pick whichever of the save-or-suck effects you think is best. But there is no level at which the best combat spell is the direct damage one.

From your list:
Flashburst is a great battlefield spell, but we can already mess with visibility.
Mesmerizing glare is incompatible with combat.
Deep Slumber we've discussed. The 1 full round casting time is offputting. The Chronocharm addresses this once/day (nice), so it's certainly potent.
Great Thunderclap seems only modestly worth using as effects may not last that long.
Major Image is ok, but not necessarily a dramatic improvement over Silent Image (and Ghost Sounds).
Shadow Binding may seems typically worse than Kelpstrand.

Stinking Cloud and Vertigo field each have a fort save and a party friendly clause with nausea over rounds/level. Overall that seems like a decent effect although since nausea allows a move it's not quite a sure win.

[Quertus]

I think the idea that "cast several spells that are all buffs" constitutes a "combo" is stretching the definition of the term to the point of meaninglessness. What's the limiting principle here, exactly? I can probably find ten buffs at any given level you'd like to have up if you can, does that mean the entire top ten is just going to be those buffs? A combo is some reasonably-specific interaction that increases the value of its elements, like Persist + short duration buffs or Regeneration + immunity to whatever deals you lethal damage.

As far as you specific examples go, I don't think flight does enough to make the 3rd level list. It doesn't last all day, and it effects only a single target. overland flight might make the 5th level list, but 5th level is pretty stacked. mind blank should get in at 8th because it is an incredibly broad-spectrum immunity that naturally lasts all day. I don't particularly think Flight + Invisibility is a combo, because I don't see any more synergy between those two defenses than there is between "DR + miss chance" or "save boosters + immediate action movement" or any other combination of two defenses. Yes, any two defenses you have make you harder to kill than having just one of those defenses. By that standard every defense combos with every other defense and the word "combo" doesn't mean anything.

I would assume the guiding principle is, "if you replaced the buff stack with alternate spells of the same level, would the character be better or worse?".

That said, I was trying to ask what your guiding principle was in decrying buffs / buff stacks. That was the reason I gave you the examples I did, to give you something grounded to work with in case your reasoning wasn't as concise to explain as the guiding principle I gave above.

(Also, have you ever had to shoot at invisible targets by guessing their square? I have. It's not pretty. Doing so in 3d is a nightmare I'd never want to play out at a table.)

Huh. I suppose I should add "Monstrous Regeneration" (or just Lesser Vigor) to the "Flight Invisibility" buff stack from the Abyss, for that added feeling of futility.

[Amidus Drexel]

There are a few issues with your analysis.

At high levels you can potentially cast with reach + a rod of chain spell to zap every shield and armor in the party.
When you zap the shield and armor, you provide a +8 to +10 bonus over the base enchantment, not merely+4.
As discussed above, if you are using form changing magic (e.g. polymorph), your base AC keeps up with monster attacks pretty well, so a further +10 enhancement bonus to AC makes an enormous difference in how often monsters hit, not merely how much damage they do.


Nitpick: Magic Vestment explicitly affects armor or clothing only (you can't enchant natural armor). While some forms you can assume with Polymorph are compatible with those, typically they're not the ones you want in a combat situation where AC matters.

Also, again, at ECL20, regular AC usually doesn't matter. Touch AC does (sometimes, for a variety of reasons - see below), but your regular AC is largely going to be protecting you from the least-scary monster attacks.



I think it depends. Greater Mighty Wallop + Persistent Wraithstrike (for example) is a pretty devastating combo for anyone doing melee.


If Persisted Wraithstrike is on our radar, Magic Vestment does very little besides glow softly under Detect Magic. :smalltongue:

[RandomPeasant]

Major Image is highly vulnerable to true seeing and Great Thunderclap is a barely-more-than-a-round debuff.

I do not understand why you think it is an issue that major image -- a 3rd level spell -- has problems with a spell that is at least 5th level and often higher. true seeing even has a baseline duration of minute/level, meaning that it will generally not be practical for enemies to have it up at the start of combat. If your major image forces your opponent to spend an action casting true seeing to negate it, it has done its job.

great thunderclap is a AoE, with reasonable range, with three independent saves, one of which is extremely powerful and one of the latter two of which will likely be at least relevant against most opponents.


So what is a good L3- anticaster spell?

Why is a slot in the top ten reserved for being anti-caster? Perhaps 3rd is simply a level at which the best spells are those that fair well against bruisers or assassins or non-combat challenges.


I'm amenable to this with the proviso that domains are category 1.

My view would be that Core domains are 1 and non-Core domains are 2, but honestly I'm not sure there's a case where it really matters. Is there a spell that A) is likely to make one of these lists and B) appears on a non-Core domain list at a level lower than it appears on the list of a Core caster?


At high levels you can potentially cast with reach + a rod of chain spell to zap every shield and armor in the party.

Sure, but that's a pretty big investment to make the spell do its thing. If you're sticking two metamagics on shivering touch it takes anything that gets within Ocular/Reach range of you and has 18 or less DEX out of the fight. Certainly there's room to be worse than that and still make the list, but "it converts low level slots into AC pretty efficiently" doesn't seem all that compelling.


As discussed above, if you are using form changing magic (e.g. polymorph), your base AC keeps up with monster attacks pretty well, so a further +10 enhancement bonus to AC makes an enormous difference in how often monsters hit, not merely how much damage they do.

And as I pointed out, this is a very big if that you seem insistent on taking as granted. Most people do not PAO their party into favorable combat forms! Even to the degree that you do that, I'm not really convinced this is true. A Balor hits a Balor on a 4 with its first attack. Draconomicon's Very Old Bronze Dragon (the first CR 20 dragon I found in that book) cannot miss itself with its first attack. Attack bonus scales faster than AC, that's why Power Attack exists. You might be able to juke it if you out-optimize the enemies, but I'm not really convinced there's a level of optimization where AC overtakes attack rolls if both sides are at parity.


Greater Mighty Wallop + Persistent Wraithstrike (for example) is a pretty devastating combo for anyone doing melee.

That's not a "combo", that's just "two spells that are both pretty good". And, frankly, wraithstrike is doing the vast majority of the heavy lifting there at most if not all levels. Assuming you are an 8th level character wielding a Greatclub and you start out medium, greater might wallop ups your damage by an average of 8 per hit. If wraithstrike is enabling you to PA for more than 4 (it is), you get more damage from it. And wraithstrike scales better, because GMW caps out at Colossal, meaning its value declines when you bring in giant size, which you are going to want to do eventually.


Obscuring Snow + Snowsight solves asymmetric visibility.

See that's totally a combo. Both of those spells are kinda mediocre on their own, and they have a specific interaction that makes them much more powerful when combined. I would be entirely willing to accept someone arguing that one of those spells was really good on the basis that it comboed with the other.


Flashburst is a great battlefield spell, but we can already mess with visibility.

What is "already"? Certainly you could have glitterdust or color spray already at 6th level, but you could quite easily not. The question, to my mind, is how good a spell is at the level it is, not how good similar lower-level spells are. Are we not going to put draconic polymorph on the 5th level list because polymorph is on the 4th level one?


Mesmerizing glare is incompatible with combat.

mesmerizing glare means your side gets to spend as much time positioning as it wants (provided you can pretend not to be hostile and don't take super overt actions), and then break the effect at whatever point in the initiative order is most advantageous.


Great Thunderclap seems only modestly worth using as effects may not last that long.

One round of stun is very good. It's certainly likely to be more damage than fireball in most fights for most parties.


That said, I was trying to ask what your guiding principle was in decrying buffs / buff stacks.

Very rarely is an individual spell in a buff stack particularly exciting. Sometimes they are, and I think effects like polymorph, divine power, wraithstrike, giant size, and shapechange all have good-to-great cases for making their respective lists. But if your question is "what are the best spells" and not "what spells participate in the best character builds", you have to look at spells reasonably individually.

Or let me come at it from the other direction: does magic circle belong on the 3rd level list because you use it when casting planar binding?


(Also, have you ever had to shoot at invisible targets by guessing their square? I have. It's not pretty. Doing so in 3d is a nightmare I'd never want to play out at a table.)

If your target is blindly guessing, you've already won with invisibility, and you're better off with something that stops their anti-invisibility countermeasures than something that makes them guess from more squares.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Nitpick: Magic Vestment explicitly affects armor or clothing only (you can't enchant natural armor). While some forms you can assume with Polymorph are compatible with those, typically they're not the ones you want in a combat situation where AC matters.

An animated shield works even when polymorphed, no matter your form. As for armor that's as easy as a Ring of Arming and some barding for your favored forms.


Also, again, at ECL20, regular AC usually doesn't matter. Touch AC does (sometimes, for a variety of reasons - see below), but your regular AC is largely going to be protecting you from the least-scary monster attacks.
Just because hp damage is easy to defend against doesn't mean you don't have to defend against it. Dead by hp damage is still dead, and most miss chances get circumvented by blindsight or true seeing. AC is usually bad because getting relevant values is expensive, but that doesn't really apply to Polymorph (or spellcasters in general).
Not to mention that Scintillating Scales exists.

Also just because Persisted Wraithstrike exists doesn't mean everything you fight hits touch AC. Not even at ECL20. It's also pretty silly to assume high enough optimization for that and not assume enemies being capable of casting a dispel.

[Quertus]

We're not doing the generous reading.

Unsurprising. Still, the general point is, "what spell is best" is going to be table-specific.


Very rarely is an individual spell in a buff stack particularly exciting. Sometimes they are, and I think effects like polymorph, divine power, wraithstrike, giant size, and shapechange all have good-to-great cases for making their respective lists. But if your question is "what are the best spells" and not "what spells participate in the best character builds", you have to look at spells reasonably individually.

Or let me come at it from the other direction: does magic circle belong on the 3rd level list because you use it when casting planar binding?

I thought the question was "what spells are best", not "what spells are worst". :smalltongue:

This, again, points to the list being table-specific.


If your target is blindly guessing, you've already won with invisibility, and you're better off with something that stops their anti-invisibility countermeasures than something that makes them guess from more squares.

Flight stops their anit-invisibility countermeasure of "running around trying to run into you", and gets out of range of their anti-invisibility countermeasure of a bag of flour. And, with Lesser Vigor (or some other form of regeneration) protects you from being taken down by pure determination and math.

So you will overhear their plans, watch where the pirates bury their treasure, fulfill your voyeuristic need to watch them whatever, or let you math them to death with things like at-will summons.

[Anthrowhale]

Nitpick: Magic Vestment explicitly affects armor or clothing only (you can't enchant natural armor). While some forms you can assume with Polymorph are compatible with those, typically they're not the ones you want in a combat situation where AC matters.
Oh? What do you have in mind?



Also, again, at ECL20, regular AC usually doesn't matter. Touch AC does (sometimes, for a variety of reasons - see below), but your regular AC is largely going to be protecting you from the least-scary monster attacks.

Scintillating Scales and the Ghost Touch armor property change this. Using them, you'll have a touch AC of 51. Scintillating Scales isn't in our top 10 for level 2, but it is potentially available from these lists via Anyspell and it is persistable.

[Fero]

Re Great Thunderclap v Fireball

Great Thunderclap should not be underestimated. At targets all three saves and two of those have a good chance to ruin the enemies' first round of combat. Disabling most of your foes for the first round of combat is huge and can easily change the tide of battle. Even the deafness can be devastating if your DM actually roleplays the enemies such that deaf enemies cannot hear orders from their allies.

That said, I think Fireball eats out a win as a representative of AoE direct damage spells for two reasons. First, yes, clearing hordes is fairly niche. However, it is an important niche and one that the party expects the arcane caster to fill. Without spells like Fireball the party will have to waste numerous precious actions attacking low level mobs directly. Second, a character can fully build around spells like Fireball to do 100s of damage in an AoE per round. Fireball is particularly good for for these builds despite its damage type and modest damage because the chasis is otherwise amazing (long range, big AoE, spread).

[Amidus Drexel]

An animated shield works even when polymorphed, no matter your form. As for armor that's as easy as a Ring of Arming and some barding for your favored forms.

Just because hp damage is easy to defend against doesn't mean you don't have to defend against it. Dead by hp damage is still dead, and most miss chances get circumvented by blindsight or true seeing. AC is usually bad because getting relevant values is expensive, but that doesn't really apply to Polymorph (or spellcasters in general).

At this point you've invested a decent portion of your (or someone else's) money into this combo. For what, +8/+9 AC to one or two of your friends and maybe +4 to the rest across two castings (we'll assume the barding is nonmagical)? Unless the arcane casters are getting into melee via polymorph or shapechange (which spell is doing the heavy lifting here?), they're probably not using a shield due to ASF chance, and they can get higher AC with Greater Mage Armor (if they care).

This whole time I've been saying "even if it is relevant (which I have been contesting), there are better things to do with your spell slots at ECL20". Is +4 AC really one of the best things we can do with a 3rd-level slot at this level (even if you invest a bunch of resources giving it to the whole party)?

At high levels, I'm looking for my low-level slots to solve utility problems so I can use my high-level slots to end combats. For Clerics (since we're talking about Magic Vestment), there are a few pretty good options here. Do I want to spend a 6th-level spell slot on True Seeing, or can I prepare Invisibility Purge, which solves the same kind of problem (sometimes better, sometimes worse) and uses up a lower-level spell slot? How about Remove Curse? Sure, it's often fine to have on a scroll, but there's no lower-level substitute. Or Magic Circle Against Evil? That has a lot of general utility. Protection From Energy helps quite a bit if you know what you're going to be fighting. Summon Monster 3 has a lot of utility at CL 20 (that's 20 rounds of scouting with a small air elemental). I might find a spot for Magic Vestment in my list of prepared spells (it's not useless by any means), but frankly it's not even in my top 5 for cleric spells in core at this level - it certainly doesn't win out over the other spells on the "maybe" list.

If you know ahead of time that +4 AC is going to matter (and clerics can check; they have divinations), then sure, Magic Vestment is a great spell. It's never going to be nothing, but I think you're greatly overselling its utility. If you know ahead of time that you're fighting a red dragon, Protection From Energy (Fire) saves you 120 HP, right off the bat (and you can use Reach Spell and a Chain Spell metamagic rod it to give it to the whole party, just like with Magic Vestment), and while +4 AC might save you some HP, it also might not.

Lots of spells look great in their best-case scenario; but I wouldn't make the argument that Protection From Energy is a top 10 spell at this level - and I think it's frequently going to be better than Magic Vestment if you know what you're fighting ahead of time (at ECL 20, you usually should).


Oh? What do you have in mind?

Scintillating Scales and the Ghost Touch armor property change this. Using them, you'll have a touch AC of 51. Scintillating Scales isn't in our top 10 for level 2, but it is potentially available from these lists via Anyspell and it is persistable.

I mean, you can buy barding and animated shields (okay, you might have bought the shields anyway), but how many resources do you have to invest in supporting Polymorph for Magic Vestment to look good... only while Polymorph is active?

I was mostly joking about Persisted Wraithstrike - I do not seriously believe most enemies are using that at any level. Just pointing out that you were suggesting a thing that makes your other suggestion worse. :smalltongue:


Regular AC isn't bad to have in general (it's true that it's often not worth the investment due to cost), but I'm saying it's usually worse than other defenses because even "AC: no" often isn't good enough. It's definitely strong sometimes, but ECL20 is one of the worst times to be focusing on AC. At CR 20, there are a lot of grappling-focused enemies, and a lot of spellcasters (or monsters with strong save-or-suck SLAs) - all of which completely ignore your regular AC in favor of attacking other defenses.

Let's look at the Balor - sure, it has an impressive full attack routine, but that's not how it wants to start combat. A balor that feels threatened (for example, by a 20th-level party) should start combat by summoning another balor with 100% chance of success, then following it up with its strongest SLAs - Implosion, Firestorm (1/day each); and Power Word Stun, Blasphemy, Dominate Monster, and Insanity (at will). While the save DCs on the default statblock aren't incredibly high (at least while we're talking about high-OP), they do get to do two of those each round, because it summoned a friend. If we're not talking about high-OP, then on round 2 there's a good chance it save-or-die kills the strongest party member and dominates or stuns one or two more, and it gets to do it again every round because it has 8th and 9th-level spells as at-will SLAs. It also does a bunch of damage while grappling.

Pit Fiends are a bit of a different story for a couple of reasons - they have Create Undead at-will, which means in general you can expect them to be surrounded by created minions. All of the choices (ghoul, ghast, mummy, mohrg) have paralysis abilities, but we'll assume the pit fiend usually chooses mohrgs (both as the strongest option and the least likely to immediately die when the pit fiend falls back on "kite with fireball" as a strategy). On the other hand, pit fiends are much more reliant on attacks hitting to consistently do damage against enemies who are immune to fire. Paralyzing minions, Mass Hold Monster, and Power Word Stun can certainly help with that, but it's no guarantee. Pit fiends also have less impressive summoning options. If you're not immune to fire, though, they're quite capable of spamming fire attacks at you from long range until you die.

Titans (okay, technically CR 21) also have an impressive full attack routine, but Quickened Chain Lightning and at-will Firestorm are also pretty strong. 1/day Gate means they can bring along a friend of their choice, at least for one combat.

It's worth mentioning that all of the above have at-will Greater Dispel Magic at CL 20, so they're quite capable of stripping buffs if the need arises.

The Tarrasque could grapple you instead of attacking, but it's probably too stupid to try. That said, you can beat the Tarrasque with an Allip, so getting a win here with high AC isn't all that impressive (it does have better than +50 to hit on all of its attacks, so getting into "it just misses" range is decidedly non-trivial).

Mariliths (two of them are EL 19) have a middling full-attack routine (though they do get an impressive amount of attacks). Their strongest ability is probably on their constrict (which can be initiated with a regular grapple - they don't have to start via improved grab), but at-will Blade Barrier is a decent source of damage as well.

Horned Devils (three of them are EL 19 or so) are basically just bruisers - they have some SLAs that matter, but mostly they're beatsticks. They lose to "AC: no".

Dragons are all high-level (well, highish-level, depending on variety) sorcerers in addition to having SLAs, breath weapons, and the ability to kite, so while they might have a strong full-attack routine, that's not what makes them scary.

The other kind of enemies you're fighting at this level are frequently creatures with class levels - many of which will be spellcasters who don't care about your AC, or intelligent bruisers who can simply target someone else.

[Chronos]

Quoth Anthrowhale:

So what is a good L3- anticaster spell?
For much of the game, the best anti-caster spell is L2: Silence. Casters can eventually get ways to work around it (Silent Spell metamagic, spells which natively lack verbal components, long-duration spells they already have running that give them other action options, etc.), but it still shuts down 90% of what a caster has available. And it also has other utility, like stealth.

Lemme hop on over to the level 2 thread to make sure it's there...

[sleepyphoenixx]

At this point you've invested a decent portion of your (or someone else's) money into this combo. For what, +8/+9 AC to one or two of your friends and maybe +4 to the rest across two castings (we'll assume the barding is nonmagical)? Unless the arcane casters are getting into melee via polymorph or shapechange (which spell is doing the heavy lifting here?), they're probably not using a shield due to ASF chance, and they can get higher AC with Greater Mage Armor (if they care).
Anyone who doesn't have class features prohibiting it can use a mithril buckler to get shield AC with 0% ASF. And most people want an item they can put enhancements like Soulfire or Mindarmor on, so chances are you're buying some form of armor anyway even if you don't care about AC at all. We're also allegedly talking about CR 20 here, so 5k for a Ring of Arming are a tiny fraction of expected WBL.


This whole time I've been saying "even if it is relevant (which I have been contesting), there are better things to do with your spell slots at ECL20". Is +4 AC really one of the best things we can do with a 3rd-level slot at this level (even if you invest a bunch of resources giving it to the whole party)?
+4 AC is a 20% lower chance of being hit. That's a substantial survival buff no matter how you look at it because physical attacks never go out of style, at any ECL. Also keep in mind that many high level monsters have attacks with rider effects, so it doesn't protect you just from hp damage.
It's also a sacred or untyped +5 bonus to your saving throws if you use the Empyrial or Resilient enhancements.


I mean, you can buy barding and animated shields (okay, you might have bought the shields anyway), but how many resources do you have to invest in supporting Polymorph for Magic Vestment to look good... only while Polymorph is active?
If you don't plan on being polymorphed most of the time obviously don't buy gear for it. But it's one of the best spells to get a comprehensive set of defenses, so if you're going to do it anyway you may as well optimize with that in mind.


At CR 20, there are a lot of grappling-focused enemies, and a lot of spellcasters (or monsters with strong save-or-suck SLAs) - all of which completely ignore your regular AC in favor of attacking other defenses.

At CR 20 you are expected to have Freedom of Movement. And Death Ward. And Mind Blank. And nearly every single enemy still has normal attacks that target AC (sometimes quite powerful ones) so you need a defense for them either way.
And since a lot of enemies at CR 20 get special senses or true seeing to counter most miss chances AC is simply the safer bet if you can get it without overpaying. Miss chance is usually just cheaper.


Dragons are all high-level (well, highish-level, depending on variety) sorcerers in addition to having SLAs, breath weapons, and the ability to kite, so while they might have a strong full-attack routine, that's not what makes them scary.
Dragon spellcasting is pathetic for their CR. Even the better varieties only reach CL 10-11 by CR 20 and at lower levels they have barely anything. If that's scary to an ECL 20 character we're playing different games.
Breath weapons may do a lot of damage, but they have a cooldown and Protection from Energy will deal with most of them easily enough.

A CR-appropriate dragons full attack on the other hand will kill even a melee class with high con in one round if all attacks hit and they tend to have high BAB. It will kill most other classes with half of that or less. So you need some kind of melee defence, and AC is more effective than miss chances or immediate-action teleports.

[Amidus Drexel]

+4 AC is a 20% lower chance of being hit. That's a substantial survival buff no matter how you look at it because physical attacks never go out of style, at any ECL.
It's also a sacred or untyped +5 bonus to your saving throws if you use the Empyrial or Resilient enhancements.

At CR 20 you are expected to have Freedom of Movement. And Death Ward. And Mind Blank. And nearly every single enemy still has normal attacks that target AC (sometimes quite powerful ones) so you need a defense for them either way.
And since a lot of enemies at CR 20 get special senses or true seeing to counter most miss chances AC is simply the safer bet if you can get it without overpaying. Miss chance is usually just cheaper.

All of these things are true (nitpicking aside; see spoiler), but sure. You can spend some 5th-level spell slots (Reach Spell + Chain metamagic rod) and a bunch of build resources on animated +1 mithril shields and such (which maybe you would've spent anyway - but maybe not) and extra suits of barding for your beatstick to shore up the AC of your whole party by +8 or so for a day (well, the beatstick is only going to be protected while polymorphed), negating some number of hits and reducing some potential power attack damage. It's a hefty investment, but it's probably worth it, at least while your beatstick is polymophed.

So, okay, you built an entire party around using this spell (and Polymorph, which is the spell doing most of the heavy lifting here) just for it to be worth two 5th-level spell slots. You've convinced me it's good. Does that make this a Top-10 3rd-level spell? I still don't think so.

There's a lot of building-around here, which is nice for combo potential, but to me it looks like a spell that has a home in a couple specific builds or situations, and not much else. Would I prepare it at 20th level? Probably. Clerics get a lot of low-level spell slots, and it's perfectly serviceable in enough situations. It wouldn't be my first (or second) pick, though, and I probably wouldn't build around it either. To me, that seems like a fine utility spell that simply isn't on a Top 10 list.

+4 AC equaling a 20% lower chance of taking a hit isn't strictly true. It could be much better than that (if you take an enemy that hits you on a 16 to only hitting you on a 20, then you went from 75% misses to 95% misses, which is 5 times as good), or it could be much worse (if they always hit you on a 2 or only hit you on a 20 either way, you haven't actually changed the chance to hit at all). At high levels where landing attacks is common, I tend to think about bonuses to AC as reducing damage from Power Attack (i.e. enemies can't PA for as much while consistently hitting you if your AC is higher), because hitting things (at least on the first few attacks) is more or less guaranteed without some seriously dedicated effort.

If your AC is high enough that you're consistently dodging attacks from high-level bruisers it might be better than that, but that's actually quite a big investment. Many of these enemies have +30 or better to hit on multiple attacks. Some of them have better than +20 on every single attack in their full attack routine (Titan, for example), and they don't have to power attack to crush a wizard into pulp. Sure, your polymorphed beatstick can have an AC of 50+ with some effort (even at a lower level than ECL 20), but most likely the whole party doesn't have that. Is the INT 20 dragon going to full attack the glowing hydra with the animated shield wearing plate barding, or is it going to dive someone on the back line instead? If the whole party has this setup with AC 50+ (not that I expect that to ever be true), why would the dragon try to fight you in melee at all? It can kite you from range with its breath weapon and much faster fly speed, throw around a few dispels, or just disengage entirely until your polymorphs wear off.


----
Since we brought up Mind Blank (and we're talking about 3rd-level spells), let's look at Magic Circle. It protects against most of the things you want Mind Blank for (mind control) in addition to providing a +2 deflection AC bonus (good), +2 resistance bonus to saves (might overlap with gear, or it might save you the money on picking up a cloak of resistance), and has extra utility when casting Planar Binding and similar spells. Most of the time, it gives ~50% of the best-case scenario for Magic Vestment with extra utility, and frequently is going to beat the average case (where AC doesn't matter at all) by improving your saves and hedging out mind control. Deflection also applies to your touch AC out of the box, and it doesn't require any shenanigans or build resources to use while polymorphed (since that's what we're comparing, apparently).

Magic Circle does most of what Magic Vestment does (at most levels it's actually better - and although we're only looking at ECL 6 and ECL 20 for this thread, Magic Vestment doesn't pass it until CL 16, assuming your target started with +1 armor) and it affects a 10ft radius circle around the target, meaning you can get a lot more mileage out of a single casting even with the shorter duration (10min/level is nearly 3.5 hours of adventuring at CL 20). You do have to know what you're fighting, but most parties can protect vs. a single alignment every time and feel pretty happy about it (choosing 'Evil' works against most of the enemies at that level).

If you need the rest of what Mind Blank does, Nondetection is also a 3rd-level spell.

[sleepyphoenixx]

There's a lot of building-around here, which is nice for combo potential, but to me it looks like a spell that has a home in a couple specific builds or situations, and not much else. Would I prepare it at 20th level? Probably. Clerics get a lot of low-level spell slots, and it's perfectly serviceable in enough situations. It wouldn't be my first (or second) pick, though, and I probably wouldn't build around it either. To me, that seems like a fine utility spell that simply isn't on a Top 10 list.
There's really not. A suit of non-magical mithral chain shirt barding and a Ring of Arming aren't much of an investment at level 20. Or long before that.
Getting 9+ AC for less than 10k gp (that isn't heavy armor) is a steal no matter how you slice it.

You also don't have to be polymorphed to make use of it.
Clerics and druids for example can get a Monk's Belt - which also helps their touch AC - and cast Magic Vestment on their clothes since they stack. That's an AC in the mid-20's all on its own already, so you don't need much more to be well protected. And it's cheap enough to be a no-brainer at level 20.


If your AC is high enough that you're consistently dodging attacks from high-level bruisers it might be better than that, but that's actually quite a big investment.
See above, it's not really a big investment for casters. A wizard can get a base AC of 20 just by starting with 14 Dex and using Alter Self to transform into a Crucian or Tren. Slap a mithral chain shirt on that, a mithral buckler and some low-level party buffs like Bark/Spiderskin, Shield of Faith and Haste and we're already looking at AC 40+.

Druids and clerics have it even easier because Monk's Belt, wild shape can easily get you an AC in the mid-30s all on its own and there are plenty of spells that increase AC further.
Or maybe you're a sorcerer or bard and use Ruin Delver's Fortune or Sirine's Grace to add your Cha to AC. Stacking AC is easy when you're a caster.

So we're easily reaching the ranges where AC is worth investing in, but we've also already covered the common bonus types. We've got armor, shield, deflection and natural, so getting more starts getting difficult and/or pricy. Maybe you can scare up a sacred or insight bonus somewhere, but that's pretty much it.
There are only two generally available sources of enhancement bonus to armor AC - enhancing armor (the pricy one) and Magic Vestment (the 3rd level spell). So it's not just +4 AC, it's +4 AC of a bonus type you likely won't get otherwise.


Since we brought up Mind Blank (and we're talking about 3rd-level spells), let's look at Magic Circle. It protects against most of the things you want Mind Blank for (mind control) in addition to providing a +2 deflection AC bonus (good), +2 resistance bonus to saves (might overlap with gear, or it might save you the money on picking up a cloak of resistance), and has extra utility when casting Planar Binding and similar spells. Most of the time, it gives ~50% of the best-case scenario for Magic Vestment with extra utility, and frequently is going to beat the average case (where AC doesn't matter at all) by improving your saves and hedging out mind control. Deflection also applies to your touch AC out of the box, and it doesn't require any shenanigans or build resources to use while polymorphed (since that's what we're comparing, apparently).
The problem is that many mind-affecting effects do not grant ongoing control, so Magic Circle doesn't help against them. It's actually only effective against a very small subset of mind-affecting stuff.
It also only lasts 10 minutes per level, which is particulary relevant since it only suppresses mind control effects instead of negating them and most of those last longer.

The problem with its bonuses is threefold:
1: They're some of the most common bonus types for their kind (and therefore don't stack with other spells).
2: They don't scale. You have plenty of options to get higher deflection bonuses to AC and resistance bonuses to saves.
3: They only apply to the opposed alignment and a lot of enemies are neutral. That's not only a problem in terms of defense, it's also a hassle to constantly adjust to during gameplay.

[Endarire]

There's also heart of water which grants freedom of movement for 1 round per caster level - and it's available to Druid & Sor/Wiz.

[Anthrowhale]

I do not understand why you think it is an issue that major image -- a 3rd level spell -- has problems with a spell that is at least 5th level and often higher. true seeing even has a baseline duration of minute/level, meaning that it will generally not be practical for enemies to have it up at the start of combat. If your major image forces your opponent to spend an action casting true seeing to negate it, it has done its job.

At higher levels, monsters often have true seeing continuously.


great thunderclap is a AoE, with reasonable range, with three independent saves, one of which is extremely powerful and one of the latter two of which will likely be at least relevant against most opponents.

The stun effect is potentially good (although many are immune to stun). Prone and deaf are ok. But the advantage over Rolling Cloud is basically just modestly more range, right?


Why is a slot in the top ten reserved for being anti-caster? Perhaps 3rd is simply a level at which the best spells are those that fair well against bruisers or assassins or non-combat challenges.

It's possible.


My view would be that Core domains are 1 and non-Core domains are 2, but honestly I'm not sure there's a case where it really matters. Is there a spell that A) is likely to make one of these lists and B) appears on a non-Core domain list at a level lower than it appears on the list of a Core caster?

I'm unaware.


Sure, but that's a pretty big investment to make the spell do its thing. If you're sticking two metamagics on shivering touch it takes anything that gets within Ocular/Reach range of you and has 18 or less DEX out of the fight. Certainly there's room to be worse than that and still make the list, but "it converts low level slots into AC pretty efficiently" doesn't seem all that compelling.

The investment in terms of spell slots seems modest at high levels and it's amortized by wanting to have Ocular Spell (or Reach) anyways---it's been discussed many times.


Even to the degree that you do that, I'm not really convinced this is true. A Balor hits a Balor on a 4 with its first attack. Draconomicon's Very Old Bronze Dragon (the first CR 20 dragon I found in that book) cannot miss itself with its first attack. Attack bonus scales faster than AC, that's why Power Attack exists. You might be able to juke it if you out-optimize the enemies, but I'm not really convinced there's a level of optimization where AC overtakes attack rolls if both sides are at parity.

I wouldn't allow PAO[Balor] since it has more than 15HD. As illustrated previously though PAO+Magic Vestment can hit AC 51 in core which is very helpful in dealing with a Balor (+33 or +31 with iteratives). The Very Old Bronze has an attack bonus of only +39, so it's missing with more than half the attacks---better than and cumulative with a 50% miss chance if you have one.

Stated another way, how valuable is a 50% miss chance that lasts all day and which True Seeing does not affect?

Even given the above, I'm not fully attached to Magic Vestment. It's available via Substitute Domain in many cases, and there are other ways to move into AC:No territory like Allied Defense and Defending weapons.

I'm not sure what to say about parties that avoid PAO for combat forms. It's right there in core and clearly effective so it's hard to imagine avoiding in this consideration.


That's not a "combo", that's just "two spells that are both pretty good". And, frankly, wraithstrike is doing the vast majority of the heavy lifting there at most if not all levels. Assuming you are an 8th level character wielding a Greatclub and you start out medium, greater might wallop ups your damage by an average of 8 per hit. If wraithstrike is enabling you to PA for more than 4 (it is), you get more damage from it. And wraithstrike scales better, because GMW caps out at Colossal, meaning its value declines when you bring in giant size, which you are going to want to do eventually.

Wraithstrike is definitely the leader here, but GMW is functionally a 'lesser giant size' which starts 4(!) spell levels earlier, lasts all day, and never has problems with fitting into normal-sized spaces at the downside of missing the size bonus to strength (+32) and reach (30').


What is "already"? Certainly you could have glitterdust or color spray already at 6th level, but you could quite easily not.

"already" as in we've already listed the Obscuring Snow+Snowsight combo.


The question, to my mind, is how good a spell is at the level it is, not how good similar lower-level spells are. Are we not going to put draconic polymorph on the 5th level list because polymorph is on the 4th level one?

Lower level effects that surpass higher level effects are definitely a sign to me that the lower level effect is interesting and the higher level effect is not.

I'm not sure about Draconic Polymorph yet. It's only a modest bump over just plain Polymorph, sort of like Major Image over Silent Image.



mesmerizing glare means your side gets to spend as much time positioning as it wants (provided you can pretend not to be hostile and don't take super overt actions), and then break the effect at whatever point in the initiative order is most advantageous.

Or one of the targets saves and the plan falls apart. Or you miss someone in the AoE and your plan falls apart. It's messy.



One round of stun is very good. It's certainly likely to be more damage than fireball in most fights for most parties.

So, you really like Rolling Cloud? That does stun and damage.

[RandomPeasant]

Unsurprising. Still, the general point is, "what spell is best" is going to be table-specific.

Sure, but that's true of any question. You can still point to spells that have particularly powerful or unique effects.


Flight stops their anit-invisibility countermeasure of "running around trying to run into you", and gets out of range of their anti-invisibility countermeasure of a bag of flour.

It doesn't stop the far more effective countermeasures of "door" or magic that lets you see invisible people. More to the point, you personally being invisible doesn't do much for the rest of the party, so you need a pretty big resource outlay before it's doing much.


I think Fireball eats out a win as a representative of AoE direct damage spells for two reasons.

Well, fireball wins as a "representative of AoE direct damage" because great thunderclap doesn't deal any damage. But as I said about dispel magic, I do not see why you would want a reserved slot for "AoE direct damage", particularly when you have no AoE non-damaging spells on the list.


Without spells like Fireball the party will have to waste numerous precious actions attacking low level mobs directly.

I mean they'll have to waste like one per mob. Which they may well have to do anyway, in the likely event that some of the mobs live your fireball (and, no, that doesn't necessarily mean the fireball damage "helped take them down faster", that's only true if the damage you deal is more than what they're killed by, which it often won't be). And that's comparing fireball to nothing, when the correct comparison is spells like haste or great thunderclap or stinking cloud that remove actions from enemies or increase the effectiveness of your allies. Roughly speaking, great thunderclap is more damage than fireball if your allies can deal at least 1d6 damage/level/enemy, which is likely true up to four enemies and almost certainly true for any smaller group.


Second, a character can fully build around spells like Fireball to do 100s of damage in an AoE per round.

Certainly, the mailman build is good. But the mailman build is not particularly dependent on fireball, nor is fireball particularly good outside that build. Your Empowered Twinned Maximized Admixtured spell could deal 1d6/2 levels baseline and still end up with enough damage to fry enemies who aren't prepared for it, so picking out a spell as good on the basis that it benefits from being on the receiving end of that doesn't really strike me as correct.


shapechange (which spell is doing the heavy lifting here?)

That, I think, is the big issue. Yes, shapechange + greater magic vestment is good. But much like wraithstrike + greater mighty wallop, it is not the case that both spells are pulling equal weight. Without shapechange, GMV takes you from "the Balor might miss on its fourth sword attack" to "the Balor might miss on its third sword attack". Without GMV, shapechange is, you know, shapechange.


+4 AC is a 20% lower chance of being hit.

No it isn't. How good an AC boost is depends on how good your baseline AC is and how high people's attack bonuses are. AC means progressively more the closer you are to pushing people off the RNG (and then means nothing once you have because of the auto-hit rule).


Dragon spellcasting is pathetic for their CR. Even the better varieties only reach CL 10-11 by CR 20 and at lower levels they have barely anything. If that's scary to an ECL 20 character we're playing different games.

Do you remember how you just described death ward, freedom of movement, and mind blank as mandatory parts of high level play? Because two of out three of those are accessible at CL 10 (as is true seeing). Dragon casting is not very good if the dragon is trying to kill you with offensive spells, but there are a lot of spells that dragons can learn and use to very good effect as force multipliers on their normal abilities. wraithstrike on a full attack with a BAB over 30 and six different natural weapons represents a great deal of damage off of Power Attack.


At higher levels, monsters often have true seeing continuously.

If you trace back the argument, we were talking about these things in comparison to dispel magic, which has a hard CL cap and therefore becomes almost entirely useless at high levels. If you think there is a point where regular dispel is good, but major image is bad, please tell me what level that is and what set of monsters you're looking at there that "often" have continuous true seeing.


The stun effect is potentially good (although many are immune to stun). Prone and deaf are ok. But the advantage over Rolling Cloud is basically just modestly more range, right?

And that you get the stun on one save instead of two, and that you have two other debuffs you're applying. I do not understand why you are so excited by the prospect of spending a spell slot to do damage in one round. A Fleshraker is doing as much bonus damage from venomfire as a three-target fireball does in total, and it is doing that every round in exchange for zero actions from its associated Druid and zero marginal spell slots. Of all the things you can do with spell slots, damage is the one that it is easiest to do without them.


I wouldn't allow PAO[Balor] since it has more than 15HD.

At the risk of derailing this thread quite thoroughly, polymorph any object does not inherit that restriction. polymorph says "The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level.", while polymorph any object gives examples like "lizard to manticore" and "pebble to human", which clearly violate the "subject's HD" restriction. I do not see how you can parse things out so that PAO can violate the former but not the latter.


The Very Old Bronze has an attack bonus of only +39, so it's missing with more than half the attacks---better than and cumulative with a 50% miss chance if you have one.

The Very Old Bronze Dragon can negate your investment almost entirely by swapping one of its 2nd level spells known for wraithstrike.


It's right there in core and clearly effective so it's hard to imagine avoiding in this consideration.

Are we also going to be considering the parties in which someone casts planar binding, summons up an Efreet, and starts asking for arbitrarily expensive magic items? What about the ones where they "just" summon up a dozen Glabrezus and start bossing them around?


Wraithstrike is definitely the leader here, but GMW is functionally a 'lesser giant size' which starts 4(!) spell levels earlier, lasts all day, and never has problems with fitting into normal-sized spaces at the downside of missing the size bonus to strength (+32) and reach (30').

I'll grant you that fitting in to normal-sized spaces is important, but +32 STR is a larger bonus to your damage than GMW taking you all the way from medium to colossal (24 v 21.5, assuming a greatclub).


I'm not sure about Draconic Polymorph yet. It's only a modest bump over just plain Polymorph, sort of like Major Image over Silent Image.

Sure, but polymorph is in contention for the best spell relative to its level in the game, and draconic polymorph is strictly better. Discarding something objectively powerful because there is something else that is similar at a lower level is making your list less accurate. Which, sure, maybe that's what you want to do. Maybe this list is meant to be a guide for Sorcerers or Favored Souls or other characters that care a lot about minimizing overlap. But a Wizard doesn't particularly care if they know a spell that's kinda redundant, because knowing spells is cheap as a Wizard.

[sleepyphoenixx]

No it isn't. How good an AC boost is depends on how good your baseline AC is and how high people's attack bonuses are. AC means progressively more the closer you are to pushing people off the RNG (and then means nothing once you have because of the auto-hit rule).

I've heard the claim before, but in my experience it's simply not true.

If you're already only getting hit on an 15 or higher by a melee beatstick adding +4 AC barely does anything for you because he's already missing most attacks, his iteratives already only hit on a 20 and most enemies will likely have less to-hit.

If you're getting hit on anything higher than a 5 adding +4 AC is worth a lot because it takes you from dodging maybe a quarter of the attacks to dodging nearly half (and much better against iteratives/weaker enemies). And you won't have excess AC doing nothing against less accurate enemies.

And going from being hit on everything but a 1 to only being hit on a 5 or higher is a pretty hefty survival upgrade, particularly if you factor in iteratives.

[Chronos]

Getting hit on only a 20 means that you survive six times as long as getting hit only on a 15 or higher.

The real diminishing returns, though, comes from enemies that choose their targets intelligently. After some point, "get hit only on X or higher" is functionally identical to "never get hit, not even 5% of the time", because at that point, enemies won't even try to hit you, instead going after one of your squishier teammates. With intelligent enemies, the only party member whose AC matters is the squishiest one.

Meanwhile, on the subject of direct damage spells, I certainly agree that it's possible in principle for a direct damage spell to be good enough to make this list. I just don't think there are any direct damage spells in the game that actually are that good. Fireball probably is the best of them (at least, at 3rd level), but it's just not good enough.

[Quertus]

A CR-appropriate dragons full attack on the other hand will kill even a melee class with high con in one round if all attacks hit and they tend to have high BAB. It will kill most other classes with half of that or less. So you need some kind of melee defence, and AC is more effective than miss chances or immediate-action teleports.

I'm so confused.

Damage: A CR 20 Great Wyrm Red Dragon1 is getting 6 attacks at +32 for <dice>+17 damage each. To make the math easy, let's say the d6/d8 rolls low, and that's 20 damage per attack. If all attacks hit, that's 120 damage.

Melee Class HP: A Barbarian with a 14 Con base, +6 item raising that to 20, will have an average of... (12+(13*9)+6)+(5*20)=135+100=235 HP, almost twice the dragon's damage output.

If the dragon misses even once, the Barbarian will still be standing after two full-round attacks (or one round of using a Belt of Battle). Or, if they Rage (and what Barbarian would Rage against a Dragon?), they'll still be standing after two rounds of full attacks even if all attacks hit.

Which means that the Dragon that chooses to go into melee with the Barbarian is eating 3 rounds of full attacks from said Barbarian (let alone the rest of the party) before they drop. That's not looking good for the Dragon.

The value of a Contingent Teleport or Abrupt Jaunt vs various levels of AC in this scenario probably depend heavily on what the rest of the party is doing / how long it takes them to take down said dragon. And, since it's a Dragon, you probably don't need your Tainted Sorcerer / Incantatrix to Twinned Maximized Disintegrate away 480 of the Greay Wyrm Red Dragon's 660 HP, as Shivering Touch is probably a one-shot kill.

1 3.0 MM - not sure if it's different in 3.5.


I'm not sure what to say about parties that avoid PAO for combat forms. It's right there in core and clearly effective so it's hard to imagine avoiding in this consideration.

Quertus, my signature academia mage for whom this account is named, avoids using Disintegrate. This is because he has encountered Spell Turning, Rings of Spell Turning, monsters whose hides reflect spells, abilities that steal spells from caster's minds (like Spell Thief), things that copy individuals (like Mirror of Opposition), and things that change the targets of spells, and it just isn't an effect he wants to deal with potentially hitting himself or his party1. Quertus' choice doesn't make Disintegration any weaker, and it's not a table-specific issue; however, his reasons for doing so are applicable to determining the overall rating of the spell.

Which is a long way to say, it depends on whether there's a reason parties don't use PaO effects.

My experience with PaO... involves casting services coupled with Hat of Disguise, casting services to qualify for Illithid Savant, casting services for reproductive purposes, casting services post-Reincarnation, casting services for fun, "the floor is lava", targeting enemies, targeting structures... pretty much anything except your described use.

Why? I'm not sure. But I have a few ideas.

1) Roleplaying. If I look at your sheet, I might be able to do the math, and know exactly what benefits this form will give you, but my character can't/doesn't. Not at the level of doing the math.

2) Roleplaying. Maybe your/my character doesn't want to get turned into some monstrosity. Especially if it changes their mind (mental stats) and/or a second casting could make it permanent. Heck, I've had a character turn down natural armor bonuses, just because the didn't like the way it made their skin feel.

3) Character Concept. The player pictures their character a certain way, and that way isn't Kirito's Alfheim transformation. No matter how good the stats are, no matter how in character it is, the player just won't go for it.

4) Reputation. "These travelers say they saw you fighting with a Demon. Not 'fighting against', 'fighting beside as an ally'."

5) Tactical Considerations. Unlike, say, Greater Magic Weapon or Magic Vestment, PaO is kinda obvious. it changes the odds the opposition will value Dispel effects against the party. (If, you know, the opposition has such effects, and the opposition is actually being roleplayed instead of war gamed.)

Anyway, it brings up a bunch of points, like, "can a spell be assumed to be in use at a table" / "do all components of a combo need to make the top 10 list for one component to make the top 10 list on the s strength of the combo" /

1 Granted, he's invented his own custom spell, based on Energy Immunity, to negate Disintegration damage (and Desiccation damage, and...).


Sure, but that's true of any question. You can still point to spells that have particularly powerful or unique effects.

Maybe? "Fireball is incredible in enclosed areas, because it eats all the oxygen out of the air, killing all normal living beings as an AoE 'no save just die' spell"? That seems more "table-specific" than "powerful or unique effects" to my ears, though.


It doesn't stop the far more effective countermeasures of "door" or magic that lets you see invisible people. More to the point, you personally being invisible doesn't do much for the rest of the party, so you need a pretty big resource outlay before it's doing much.

If the pirates are burying their treasure behind a door, that's just strange. Things voyeurism cares about often do occur behind closed doors; presumably, the prospective voyeur already has an answer to that. The assumption implicit in defending against their attacks was that they know you're there; you're listening to their plans as a known observer whether or not you open a door to do so. And while -10 penalty to listen checks for "behind a closed door" is a thing, so is pouring oil on the building and lighting a fire - the enclosed space is a double-edged sword for them to draw.

Never mind that, if you wanted to kill them as your primary objective, "closed door" just lets you stockpile summons, which is really bad for them. They may as well use the "slit your own throat so the opponent doesn't kill you" move at that point.

Regardless, Invisibility keeps you from being targeted, and prevents your identity from being known, even if you do have to (get a Summons to) open a door along the way.


At the risk of derailing this thread quite thoroughly, polymorph any object does not inherit that restriction. polymorph says "The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level.", while polymorph any object gives examples like "lizard to manticore" and "pebble to human", which clearly violate the "subject's HD" restriction. I do not see how you can parse things out so that PAO can violate the former but not the latter.

Yeah, I agree. See also "table dependency".


If you're already only getting hit on an 15 or higher by a melee beatstick adding +4 AC barely does anything for you because he's already missing most attacks, his iteratives already only hit on a 20 and most enemies will likely have less to-hit.

Taking 1/5th the damage is "barely does anything for you"? Also, "iteratives"? Most monsters don't have "iteratives".

So, if you're fighting normal monsters, that's 1/5th damage in that scenario, which is nothing to sneeze at; if you're (exclusively?) fighting things with iteratives, Hold Person and several other spells enter the conversation, as does my talk of how certain considerations are table-specific.

EDIT:
Getting hit on only a 20 means that you survive six times as long as getting hit only on a 15 or higher.

The real diminishing returns, though, comes from enemies that choose their targets intelligently. After some point, "get hit only on X or higher" is functionally identical to "never get hit, not even 5% of the time", because at that point, enemies won't even try to hit you, instead going after one of your squishier teammates. With intelligent enemies, the only party member whose AC matters is the squishiest one.

This further exacerbates the advantage stealth buffs have over obvious buffs.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Getting hit on only a 20 means that you survive six times as long as getting hit only on a 15 or higher.
While mathematically accurate most fights don't last long enough to need quite that much survival.
Being able to take an average of 30 full attacks without dying instead of 5 is great in theory, but if no enemy ever gets off more than 4 full attacks anyway it doesn't actually increase your chances of survival, just how much gp you spend on wands of Lesser Vigor.

The party squishy going from being able to take 0 full attacks without dying to being able to take 1-2 is an absolutely gigantic survival upgrade though.


The real diminishing returns, though, comes from enemies that choose their targets intelligently. After some point, "get hit only on X or higher" is functionally identical to "never get hit, not even 5% of the time", because at that point, enemies won't even try to hit you, instead going after one of your squishier teammates. With intelligent enemies, the only party member whose AC matters is the squishiest one.
Unless your DM is metagaming like crazy the enemies also need to have an ability to tell who's squishiest at a glance. Because chances are they won't live long enough for trial and error.


Meanwhile, on the subject of direct damage spells, I certainly agree that it's possible in principle for a direct damage spell to be good enough to make this list. I just don't think there are any direct damage spells in the game that actually are that good. Fireball probably is the best of them (at least, at 3rd level), but it's just not good enough.

Blasting damage depends largely on your build choices, not the spell. Spell damage scaling is mostly standardized after all.
Sure, there's still differences and spells that scale faster or slower than others, but on the whole none of them do enough damage to be worthwhile without building for it.
On the other hand even mild optimization lets most d6/level spells kill a lot of level-appropriate enemies, so no one can claim damage spells aren't worth using.

So if you wanted to include direct damage spells they'd have to be judged on criteria like allowing saves/SR, number of targets, range, duration and so on and how well they can be used with feats and abilities that optimize damage. And from that perspective Fireballs ref-save, SR:yes is not particularly great.


I'm so confused.

Damage: A CR 20 Great Wyrm Red Dragon1 is getting 6 attacks at +32 for <dice>+17 damage each. To make the math easy, let's say the d6/d8 rolls low, and that's 20 damage per attack. If all attacks hit, that's 120 damage.

Melee Class HP: A Barbarian with a 14 Con base, +6 item raising that to 20, will have an average of... (12+(13*9)+6)+(5*20)=135+100=235 HP, almost twice the dragon's damage output.

Great Wyrms are CR 26 in 3.5. Old Red Dragon would be CR 20 with an unbuffed attack routine of +36 bite (4d6+12) and +31 claw/claw (2d8+6)/ wing/wing (2d6+6)/ tail slap (2d8+18) for an average damage of 119 (26 + 2*15 + 2*13 + 27) if all attacks hit.

Emphasis mine. Because an old red dragon also has 9 feats (including epic feats), the spellcasting of an 11th level sorcerer, WBL and possibly dragon archetypes like Loredrake, so assuming the natural-born gish monster wouldn't be build to increase that damage is silly.

[Fero]

Re Major Image and True Seeing:
1- While many creatures have constant True Seeing at high levels, many don't. I guesstimate that the ratio is about the same as immunity to stat damage/drain at lower levels.
2- True Seeing only works w/in 120' so Major Image can still foll creatures with constant True sight.
3- A few methods exist to True Seeing (insidious magic etc.). These can turn True Seeing into a liability as creatures benefiting from true sight will seldom question what they see.

[Quertus]

Great Wyrms are CR 26 in 3.5. Old Red Dragon would be CR 20 with an unbuffed attack routine of +36 bite (4d6+12) and +31 claw/claw (2d8+6)/ wing/wing (2d6+6)/ tail slap (2d8+18) for an average damage of 119 (26 + 2*15 + 2*13 + 27) if all attacks hit.

Huh. I low-balled 120 in 3.0, you calculated 119 in 3.5. For different Dragons, granted, but for "CR 20" in both cases. Funny how those numbers lined up so closely. :smallbiggrin:


Great Wyrms are CR 26 in 3.5. Old Red Dragon would be CR 20 with an unbuffed attack routine of +36 bite (4d6+12) and +31 claw/claw (2d8+6)/ wing/wing (2d6+6)/ tail slap (2d8+18) for an average damage of 119 (26 + 2*15 + 2*13 + 27) if all attacks hit.

Emphasis mine. Because an old red dragon also has 9 feats (including epic feats), the spellcasting of an 11th level sorcerer, WBL and possibly dragon archetypes like Loredrake, so assuming the natural-born gish monster wouldn't be build to increase that damage is silly.What you call "silly", I call "roleplaying".

Historically, Dragon's spells are chosen at random - they don't "build" themselves. So their buffs are slim to nonexistent.

Also, Dragons are generally overconfident / prideful. Yes, they're paranoid, live in hidden caves style underconfident, but the notion that a Dragon needs buffs to deal with some lowly humans?

And Dragons don't have WBL. In any world where WBL is part of world-physics, and Dragons get PC WBL, I do pity the other races. As much for having WBL as world physics as for the might of the Young Adult Dragons with epic PC gear.

EDIT: That said, color me "Dragonslayer" in those worlds, as I'd love to get epic PC gear for defeating CR... dagnabbit, what CR are Young Adult Dragons in 3.5? I have "10-ish" in 3.0.

[sleepyphoenixx]

What you call "silly", I call "roleplaying".

Historically, Dragon's spells are chosen at random - they don't "build" themselves. So their buffs are slim to nonexistent.


Also, Dragons are generally overconfident / prideful. Yes, they're paranoid, live in hidden caves style underconfident, but the notion that a Dragon needs buffs to deal with some lowly humans?
Dragons also have superhuman intelligence, so them not figuring out the better ways to use their powers over their centuries of life makes no sense.
It also doesn't explain the dragon using NO feats or spells.

RP-reasoning aside, the main reason that most NPC feats and spell lists are bad is because they were made by people who had no idea about optimization and usually made from core and the book they appear in only. That's fine if you're playing with an unoptimized core-only party, but if your party is optimized you need to rebuild them if you want them to stay appropriately difficult fights.

A supposedly legendary monster dragon that falls over in a stiff breeze isn't very good for immersion after all.

And Dragons don't have WBL. In any world where WBL is part of world-physics, and Dragons get PC WBL, I do pity the other races. As much for having WBL as world physics as for the might of the Young Adult Dragons with epic PC gear.

EDIT: That said, color me "Dragonslayer" in those worlds, as I'd love to get epic PC gear for defeating CR... dagnabbit, what CR are Young Adult Dragons in 3.5? I have "10-ish" in 3.0.

NPC WBL is a thing. It's lower than PC WBL, but it's not nothing.

[Quertus]

Getting hit on only a 20 means that you survive six times as long as getting hit only on a 15 or higher.

The real diminishing returns, though, comes from enemies that choose their targets intelligently. After some point, "get hit only on X or higher" is functionally identical to "never get hit, not even 5% of the time", because at that point, enemies won't even try to hit you, instead going after one of your squishier teammates. With intelligent enemies, the only party member whose AC matters is the squishiest one.
This further exacerbates the advantage stealth buffs have over obvious buffs.

I just wanted to poke at this some more.

I may be an AC 9 Vulnerable Wizard, but if I look like a Balor in Full Plate with a floating Shield, intelligent foes might well not target me with physical attacks, thinking they'll only hit on a 20.

Even if such illusions aren't in play, it still generally takes intelligent opponents a round or two of combat to size up unknown opponents with any degree of accuracy. (Ones that are roleplayed, not ones that know what they rolled on their dice, that is). Hilariously, the easy way to test for low-AC opponents is with a hoard of low-level archers - which themselves are vulnerable to Fireball, once again pushing the value of Fireball into the top 10 list.

So it's easy to argue that Invisibility, illusions, and stealth buffs are much stronger in information warfare than more obvious buffs like PaO. Then again, it's possible to argue that setting and changing expectations, like deploying PaO on a weak-AC target after the intelligent enemies have committed their forces into melee with it, could be a strong strategy.

It seems that, if we're talking about the 10 best spells, that it is in the context of the optimal strategies. Does anyone have experience with information warfare in 3e, to give their experiences on what, exactly, the optimal strategies are wrt defenses and getting intelligent foes to target them poorly? (Also, what the optimal strategy is given the simultaneous existence of unintelligent foes?)


NPC WBL is a thing. It's lower than PC WBL, but it's not nothing.

Touche.

Still makes me interested in investigating being a Dragonslayer, Vampire Hunter, or any other targeted hunter of creatures where WotC gave the monsters way too high of a LA.

[pabelfly]

Meanwhile, on the subject of direct damage spells, I certainly agree that it's possible in principle for a direct damage spell to be good enough to make this list. I just don't think there are any direct damage spells in the game that actually are that good. Fireball probably is the best of them (at least, at 3rd level), but it's just not good enough.

If we're talking about blasting, I think that Wings of Flurry at 4th level is so much better than Fireball I don't mind if Fireball gets skipped at 3rd. Wings of Flurry has uncapped damage from caster level, and Force damage is rarely resisted or has enemies with immunities while Fire is the most commonly-resisted element. The only issue is the range of WoF, but I'd still pick it over Fireball.

[Anthrowhale]

Great Thunderclap
There are three plausibly-superior comparators:
a) Kelpstrand is a level 2 spell that grapples level/3 opponents for the encounter (no save).
b) Stinking Cloud lasts round/level and causes nausea for 1d4+1 rounds to all in the area. Nausea isn't as strong a condition as stun, but it still denies all actions except move and 1d4+1 rounds is much more likely to last the encounter. The extra duration also provides BFC.
c) Vertigo field lasts round/level causing nausea for a round every round and is party friendly.



At high levels, I'm looking for my low-level slots to solve utility problems so I can use my high-level slots to end combats. For Clerics (since we're talking about Magic Vestment), there are a few pretty good options here. Do I want to spend a 6th-level spell slot on True Seeing, or can I prepare Invisibility Purge, which solves the same kind of problem (sometimes better, sometimes worse) and uses up a lower-level spell slot?

Note that Linked Perception can give you the Spot to burn through invisibility.


How about Remove Curse? Sure, it's often fine to have on a scroll, but there's no lower-level substitute.

Resurgence and possibly Heroics[Martial Study].


Or [I]Magic Circle Against Evil? That has a lot of general utility.

We already have Protection from Evil on list. The Planar Binding synergy does bear thought.


Protection From Energy helps quite a bit if you know what you're going to be fighting.

We have no answer to energy damage at present so this bears thought. I do believe energy damage avoidance is more specialized than attack damage avoidance.


Summon Monster 3 has a lot of utility at CL 20 (that's 20 rounds of scouting with a small air elemental).

I expect you can (and will want to) do much better at CL20.

I'm actually wondering about Greater Magic Weapon instead of Magic Vestment. There are several advantages:

With the defending enhancement on a weapon (8k gp), you can get AC+5 in an explicitly stacking manner. Plausibly, multiple defending weapons can stack AC. It's also plausible that you can have lots of extra weapons like armor spikes, braid blades, knee blades, elbow blades, and boot blades. That's quite a bit of AC.
Greater Magic Weapon is range:close, so it only requires a lesser rod of chain spell (14k gp) for efficient multi-effect.
Greater Magic Weapon's bonus applies more rapidly (+1/3 levels) than Magic Vestment (+1/4 levels).
Magic Vestment is available off the Strength, War, Chastity, Halfling, and Nobility domains. The War domain is super-common amongst deities (see Troacctid's list (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1g7eqfWiBG63Y6OulrIfD0Glo5ugoviAM5PUUGN60Hto/edit#gid=54167496)), and the Strength domain is common, so accessing via Substitute Domain is fairly reasonable.
Greater Magic Weapon can also be used for attacking attack, of course.

There are two disadvantages I can think of:
(a) you really do want a +5 enhancement bonus on Empyreal armor for the +5 (sacred) to saves. Still, that's plausibly doable via a domain.
(b) Of course, you need to pay 1.6k gp / +1 enhancement bonus which is reasonable enough, but still an expense.



At CR 20, there are a lot of grappling-focused enemies

We have Freedom of Movement access.



...a lot of spellcasters (or monsters with strong save-or-suck SLAs)

Which is why Empyreal+5 armor is nice.



Let's look at the Balor

Offensively, a great target for Mark of the Enlightened Soul + Lesser Rod[Maximize] Ocular Shivering Touch.
Defensively, Empyreal+5 certainly matters when you are dealing with Implosion.



Create Undead

The created undead seem kind of hapless to me. Mohrg's have a spot of just +15 so you can hide easily, and the +12 to hit, even as a touch attack, is dealt with via Defending based AC.


If you're not immune to fire, though, they're quite capable of spamming fire attacks at you from long range until you die.

Energy Immunity is a serious choice for top-10 when we reach that level.



Titans (okay, technically CR 21) also have an impressive full attack routine, but Quickened Chain Lightning and at-will Firestorm are also pretty strong. 1/day Gate means they can bring along a friend of their choice, at least for one combat.

Gate is hard to predict. Luckily it's only a caster level 20 Gate?


It's worth mentioning that all of the above have at-will Greater Dispel Magic at CL 20, so they're quite capable of stripping buffs if the need arises.

Unless you use caster level escalation spells/effects.



Dragons are all high-level (well, highish-level, depending on variety) sorcerers in addition to having SLAs, breath weapons, and the ability to kite, so while they might have a strong full-attack routine, that's not what makes them scary.

Dragon spells are actually pretty low level actually. It's one of the reasons Abjurant Champion is a big win.


L2: Silence.
It's a good spell, but they either get a save or can move out of range. It could be fun to use Silence on a Harpoon if you have a way of hitting reliably.

[Fero]

If we're talking about blasting, I think that Wings of Flurry at 4th level is so much better than Fireball I don't mind if Fireball gets skipped at 3rd. Wings of Flurry has uncapped damage from caster level, and Force damage is rarely resisted or has enemies with immunities while Fire is the most commonly-resisted element. The only issue is the range of WoF, but I'd still pick it over Fireball.

I am not sure I agree for a dedicated blaster build, even setting aside the fact that WoF os Sorc exclusive and the uncapped damage is, I strongly suspect, a typographical error of ommission (given the explicit instructions in the dmg about spell design). Subject to the above, WoF advantages are: 1- a cool secondary effect; 2- a better damage type; and 3- uncapped damage dice.

Regarding #1, the secondary effect should not matter to a dedicated blaster (everyone should die).

Regarding #2, there are plenty of ways to overcome energy resistance. Admitedly, most require a feat or level tax and it will be hard to do something as good as force damage (Elven Spell Lore maybe?).

Regarding #3, uncapped damage dice are very nice. However, the trade off is being a level 4 spell, as opposed to level 3. This means less room for MM. In addition, level 4 spells are much harder to augment with MM rods and empowered spell shards. Either way, both spells are more than capable of doing more damage tha. The enemy has HP.

In exchange for these three advantages, WoF has one critical problem for any dedicated build. Even enlarged, WoF is limited to 60'. Fireball starts at 600', and only gets better.

None of this is to challenge that WoF is a good spell (it is amazing and is probably the better choice for non-dedicated builds).

This does highlight a problem with including a direct damage spell on this list. There are so many DD spells that there are many "best" DD spells. As such, it may be hard to say that anyone DD spell is in the top 10 overall.

[RandomPeasant]

And going from being hit on everything but a 1 to only being hit on a 5 or higher is a pretty hefty survival upgrade, particularly if you factor in iteratives.

Sure, but going from getting hit by 10 on anything but at 1 to being hit by 6 on anything but at 1 is worth, at most, a marginal reduction in how much your enemies Power Attack for.


Melee Class HP: A Barbarian with a 14 Con base, +6 item raising that to 20, will have an average of... (12+(13*9)+6)+(5*20)=135+100=235 HP, almost twice the dragon's damage output.

What happens when the dragon casts wraithstrike and can now Power Attack for something north of twenty points per attack?


If the pirates are burying their treasure behind a door, that's just strange.

How many doors are there between the rest of the world and your valuables?


Never mind that, if you wanted to kill them as your primary objective, "closed door" just lets you stockpile summons, which is really bad for them.

I feel like the strength of a plan where you summon a bunch of stuff is in the summoning spells.


The party squishy going from being able to take 0 full attacks without dying to being able to take 1-2 is an absolutely gigantic survival upgrade though.

Yes but that takes a great deal more investment. If your +8 takes you from 14 AC to 22 AC, you have now gone from zero of the Balor's six attacks being able to miss on something other than a 1 to one of the Balor's six attacks being able to miss on something other than a 1. You need to make a variety of different investments in AC for it to even start being relevant, so singling out any particular one of them (let alone one as relatively marginal as greater magic vestment) as a "top ten spell" does not strike me as correct.


On the other hand even mild optimization lets most d6/level spells kill a lot of level-appropriate enemies, so no one can claim damage spells aren't worth using.

I would love to know how you're defining "mild optimization" and "a lot of level-appropriate enemies". To kill an Annis, Lamia, or Wyvern with one cast at CL 6, you need to triple the average damage of fireball.


And from that perspective Fireballs ref-save, SR:yes is not particularly great.

As I've said, the one thing fireball does that is exciting is "have Long range", and that's just not enough to get you into the top ten. It's a weird niche like how you can use animate dead to make zombies and have them do random economic tasks, except not stapled to the first good minionmancy spell.


1- While many creatures have constant True Seeing at high levels, many don't. I guesstimate that the ratio is about the same as immunity to stat damage/drain at lower levels.

The fact that true seeing is relatively easy to get as a PC, and very much worth getting, leads people to overestimate how many monsters get it. Looking at CR 12 monsters in the SRD, the only ones that have an immunity are a couple of creatures that are likely going to be relying on Tremorsense. That means your 3rd level spell is pulling full freight at 12th level, which is absolutely not true of the likes of fireball or dispel magic. It's true that true seeing becomes more common at CR 20, but I think that much like animate dead that's an issue where CL 20 is not necessarily the most useful version of "higher levels" to be evaluating.


If we're talking about blasting, I think that Wings of Flurry at 4th level is so much better than Fireball I don't mind if Fireball gets skipped at 3rd. Wings of Flurry has uncapped damage from caster level, and Force damage is rarely resisted or has enemies with immunities while Fire is the most commonly-resisted element. The only issue is the range of WoF, but I'd still pick it over Fireball.

I think wings of flurry is an absolutely reasonable pick for 4th level, but I don't think the uncapped scaling matters that much. You can't really do massive CL boosting at 8th level, and by the time you can do massive CL boosting you have better spells (read: holy word). The fact that it does 20d6 out of a 4th level spell slot at 20th level is not a meaningless difference from the spells that don't, but 20d6 is not a particularly impressive amount of damage at 20th level. At 20th level, things like Trumpet Archons and Ice Devils are horde monsters, and neither of those dies to even a Maximized CL 20 wings of flurry.


There are three plausibly-superior comparators:
a) Kelpstrand is a level 2 spell that grapples level/3 opponents for the encounter (no save).
b) Stinking Cloud lasts round/level and causes nausea for 1d4+1 rounds to all in the area. Nausea isn't as strong a condition as stun, but it still denies all actions except move and 1d4+1 rounds is much more likely to last the encounter. The extra duration also provides BFC.
c) Vertigo field lasts round/level causing nausea for a round every round and is party friendly.

If you want to put either stinking cloud or vertigo field on the list instead, I would be absolutely fine with that. My contention is mostly that it's not reasonable to have fireball as your entry for combat spells, not particularly that great thunderclap specifically is the best one.


We have no answer to energy damage at present so this bears thought. I do believe energy damage avoidance is more specialized than attack damage avoidance.

Again, I am begging you to consider what you mean by "top ten" in more detail. Just because something covers a new niche does not mean it is better than things that cover existing niches very well. If I offer you "a really big house in Malibu", "a pretty big house in Malibu", and "a cup of coffee", the last is not the second most valuable merely because the first dominates the second!


Regarding #3, uncapped damage dice are very nice. However, the trade off is being a level 4 spell, as opposed to level 3. This means less room for MM. In addition, level 4 spells are much harder to augment with MM rods and empowered spell shards. Either way, both spells are more than capable of doing more damage tha. The enemy has HP.

I think if your question is "how does this interact with non-spell elements", you are asking the wrong question for a list of "top ten spells". Yes, the metamagic stacking builds can do a lot of damage. But they can do that with almost any spell. The strength is in the metamagic stacking, not the particular spell that is the beneficiary. For what it's worth, I would also not consider divine power for the 4th level list or righteous might for the 5th level list, as despite being strong with DMM: Persistent, they're not particularly good as spells (contrast to shapechange, which is great on its own, and simply becomes insane if you can have it up all day).

[sleepyphoenixx]

Yes but that takes a great deal more investment. If your +8 takes you from 14 AC to 22 AC, you have now gone from zero of the Balor's six attacks being able to miss on something other than a 1 to one of the Balor's six attacks being able to miss on something other than a 1. You need to make a variety of different investments in AC for it to even start being relevant, so singling out any particular one of them (let alone one as relatively marginal as greater magic vestment) as a "top ten spell" does not strike me as correct.
You didn't have an issue with spell combos on the other lists, so i don't see how Magic Vestment should be treated differently just because it grants AC.



I would love to know how you're defining "mild optimization"
Basically picking build options that support what you want to do. A buff or two, some feats and/or a few cheap items. No cheesy combos or obscure rules interpretations, just what a player who's reasonably familiar with the available options might pick.


To kill an Annis, Lamia, or Wyvern with one cast at CL 6, you need to triple the average damage of fireball.
That's not particularly hard?
For example a level 6 human wizard with Fiery Spell, Arcane Thesis (Fireball), Mark of the Enlightened Soul and an Empowered Spellshard does (8d6+8)*2 or 72 average damage on a failed save, at least against evil enemies. He can also boost that a lot further still with stuff like Raging Flame, Caustic Mire, various CL boosts, metamagic and so on.

It's more than you need for most other spells but we're not exactly talking about a mailman build here. I'd consider 2 feats, a buff and 6k gp pretty mild as far as optimizing a character goes.

[RandomPeasant]

You didn't have an issue with spell combos on the other lists, so i don't see how Magic Vestment should be treated differently just because it grants AC.

I would love for you to tell me how many times I posted in the threads for the other lists, or what my stated position on "combos" in this thread has consistently been.


Basically picking build options that support what you want to do. A buff or two, some feats and/or a few cheap items. No cheesy combos or obscure rules interpretations, just what a player who's reasonably familiar with the available options might pick.

And this would include, for instance, getting a PAO to permanently turn you in to something so powerful the devs didn't bother to give it a printed LA?


That's not particularly hard?
For example a level 6 human wizard with Fiery Spell, Arcane Thesis (Fireball), Mark of the Enlightened Soul and an Empowered Spellshard does (8d6+8)*2 or 72 average damage on a failed save

"It's not that hard, you just take these four different things from these four different sources, one of which is famously considered overpowered."

But I mean, sure, if that's how we're defining "mild optimization", you can get there. But by that standard an Ubercharger Barbarian can have Lion Totem, Shock Trooper, Whirling Frenzy, and Leap Attack to deal as much bonus damage from Power Attack as you are dealing damage in total. And, yes, you can potentially hit more than one target, but if you factor in the base damage he's dealing, he hits for close to as much damage as you do without needing Whirling Frenzy.

Damage is just fundamentally not where spells have an advantage. If you want to deal damage as a spellcaster, consider that you can simply be a Druid, turn into a Fleshraker, and cast venomfire on yourself, resulting in a per-round damage output that is very nearly as high (as you get base damage and benefit from other buffs), while getting a slot efficiency that is basically infinite compared to even more optimized blasters.

[Anthrowhale]

You can spend some 5th-level spell slots (Reach Spell + Chain metamagic rod) and a bunch of build resources on animated +1 mithril shields and such (which maybe you would've spent anyway - but maybe not) and extra suits of barding for your beatstick to shore up the AC of your whole party by +8 or so for a day (well, the beatstick is only going to be protected while polymorphed), negating some number of hits and reducing some potential power attack damage. It's a hefty investment, but it's probably worth it, at least while your beatstick is polymophed.

Note that the feats (Reach or Ocular and Extend + Persistent) mentioned for use with spells are shared by several spells. Similarly lesser rods of chain and lesser rods of maximize are shared and can each be used 3/day. Thus, part of the build investment is fairly heavily amortized, and so not as expensive as you might imagine.

I'm also skeptical about polymorphing into non-humanoidish (outsiders with hands/giants/monstrous humanoids included) forms for combat purposes (it could be good for utility at times). Rod[Chain] Ocular Bladesong, Persistent Wraithsrike, and Rod[Chain] + Ocular Greater mighty wallop are all weapon-specific and applicable to an Executioner's Mace. They create a devastating combo in any melee combat where enemies in reach are dazed (no save) and suffer colossal+ damage on hits.

It can kite you from range with its breath weapon and much faster fly speed, throw around a few dispels, or just disengage entirely until your polymorphs wear off.
The dangerous one here is the need for ranged attacks in my opinion, because melee combat is pretty near over with the combos available already in the top-10 list.

With that said, I'm curious what you think of the Greater Magic Weapon instead of Magic Vestment argument?


Magic Circle.... Nondetection
Magic Circle does seem potentially compelling as enabling Planar Binding to me. For mind control avoidance, I prefer Disobedience which covers more territory although still not quite all mind-affecting.

[Quertus]

What happens when the dragon casts wraithstrike and can now Power Attack for something north of twenty points per attack?

Against that very rare Dragon? We smile at the GP cost Tainted Sorcerer HP cost for True Resurrecting our test dummy dear friend while we Necrotic Dominate our new, actually useful minion who has demonstrated value beyond being turned into a fur coat suit of armor / zombie dragon / used as components.


How many doors are there between the rest of the world and your valuables?

None that are being watched, most of the time, save for those being watched by those whom I consider valuable.


I feel like the strength of a plan where you summon a bunch of stuff is in the summoning spells.

You're not wrong, but... you can summon a lot more things when you're not dead. And Flight + Invisibility (+ Lesser Vigor) are really good at keeping you not dead.


And this would include, for instance, getting a PAO to permanently turn you in to something so powerful the devs didn't bother to give it a printed LA?

That is the power of the spell, yeah. Bring that up when we're talking about why it's in its top 10 list.


Damage is just fundamentally not where spells have an advantage.

Strongly agree. That said, "range" and "area of effect" are some places where they have advantages, even in the (otherwise anemic) "damage" category.

[RandomPeasant]

Note that the feats (Reach or Ocular and Extend + Persistent) mentioned for use with spells are shared by several spells. Similarly lesser rods of chain and lesser rods of maximize are shared and can each be used 3/day. Thus, part of the build investment is fairly heavily amortized, and so not as expensive as you might imagine.

It's amortized in the sense that any particular spell is not exclusively responsible for it, but you are investing quite a large chunk of your overall resources into a buffing build that not every character is going to want to go for. A Shadowcraft Mage, for instance, does not particularly want Reach/Ocular, nor Extend + Persistent, nor rods of Chain or Maximize for what their build is normally doing. And they want quite a few other feats to get their various combos going (to be fair, there are not as many specific items they want). If you compare this to something like animate dead or stinking cloud, it seems clear which one stands more easily on its own.


They create a devastating combo in any melee combat where enemies in reach are dazed (no save) and suffer colossal+ damage on hits.

I would like to again register this is not remotely what "combo" is typically understood to mean. That's just a bunch of things that stack. Is a magic weapon a "combo" with a Belt of Giant Strength? Have I found a potent "combo" in MTG when my control deck plays targeted removal to clean up after a board wipe? Is there, under this criteria, any two abilities one could have that are applicable in the same situation but do not constitute a "combo"?


Magic Circle does seem potentially compelling as enabling Planar Binding to me. For mind control avoidance, I prefer Disobedience which covers more territory although still not quite all mind-affecting.

I'm sort of shaky on putting magic circle on the list. On the one hand, it does have a pretty direct and important connection to planar binding (there is a reasonable argument the spell does not work without it). On the other hand, I do not think it is especially useful to have a spell on the list (almost) exclusively because you are casting it in conjunction with another spell, particularly because that's happening in downtime. What's the use-case where someone looks at the 3rd level list and benefits from seeing a spell that is good because of its synergy with 5th, 6th, or 8th level spells? How compelling is that use-case compared to the version where there is a more generally-applicable 3rd level spell on the list and the entry for planar binding says that you should also have the spells that make it go?


Against that very rare Dragon?

What exactly is "rare" about that dragon? It's a stock dragon that has taken what is easily in the top five best spells for dragons (and probably the best). I guess maybe it also had to swap a feat for Power Attack, but if you're talking about Tainted Sorcerers and Necrotic Domination, that hardly seems an unreasonable level of optimization for a monster to do.


You're not wrong, but... you can summon a lot more things when you're not dead. And Flight + Invisibility (+ Lesser Vigor) are really good at keeping you not dead.

You know what's even better at stopping people from killing you? Minions for them to try to kill instead. Minions on its own is substantially better than your whole buffstack on its own, let alone any individual spell. And you'll note that there's one guy here arguing for summon monster III on this list.


That is the power of the spell, yeah. Bring that up when we're talking about why it's in its top 10 list.

Sure. But my point is that if we're counting that, I'm not sure where the bright line that causes us to not count the even more abusively powerful applications of planar binding, at which point the whole thing collapses into farce. What is the principled distinction (e.g. not just "that one's better") whereby you can PAO people into combat forms but you can't wish for a Belt of Magnificence +1,000? They're both equally RAW-legal, they're both equally Core-only, they're both equally straightforward. It's just that they're both, you know, cheese.

[Anthrowhale]

There's also heart of water which grants freedom of movement for 1 round per caster level - and it's available to Druid & Sor/Wiz.
?There already, right?



particularly when you have no AoE non-damaging spells on the list.

Note please Kelpstrand which is a pretty good multitarget non-damaging offensive spell. I agree it's not an AoE, but the distinction between multitarget and AoE seems marginal in most circumstances.



Roughly speaking, great thunderclap is more damage than fireball if your allies can deal at least 1d6 damage/level/enemy, which is likely true up to four enemies and almost certainly true for any smaller group.

This seems like a striking claim. At ECL6, how does haste contribute more than 24d6 damage against 4 enemies? Even if you ignore the timeline involved, Haste functions as (at best) an ~x2 damage multiplier. If the 4 enemies average 21 hit points, they are going down after ~24d6 damage, implying that haste contributes at most ~12d6.



Without shapechange, GMV takes you from "the Balor might miss on its fourth sword attack" to "the Balor might miss on its third sword attack". Without GMV, shapechange is, you know, shapechange.

If we go with Greater Magic Weapon instead and deck out in defending weapons, I believe this is no longer true.



wraithstrike on a full attack with a BAB over 30 and six different natural weapons represents a great deal of damage off of Power Attack.

Definitely true. Another reason to prefer the Greater Magic Weapon+Defending approach.



If you trace back the argument, we were talking about these things in comparison to dispel magic, which has a hard CL cap and therefore becomes almost entirely useless at high levels. If you think there is a point where regular dispel is good, but major image is bad, please tell me what level that is and what set of monsters you're looking at there that "often" have continuous true seeing.

I think the question: at what level is Major Image preferred to Dispel Magic when you have access to Silent Image and Ghost Sounds? My present expectation is ECL6-10. Above ECL10, you'll rapidly want to switch to reliance on Greater Dispel Magic.



I do not understand why you are so excited by the prospect of spending a spell slot to do damage in one round.

The range matters here. We already have extremely potent melee combat. What's lacking is extremely potent ranged combat. How can we get that out of spells?



At the risk of derailing this thread quite thoroughly, polymorph any object does not inherit that restriction. polymorph says "The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level.", while polymorph any object gives examples like "lizard to manticore" and "pebble to human", which clearly violate the "subject's HD" restriction. I do not see how you can parse things out so that PAO can violate the former but not the latter.

PAO can clearly violate the "subject's HD" restriction, but not the "maximum of 15 HD" restriction. Is violating a part of sentence the same as violating all of the sentence or not? I prefer the former.



The Very Old Bronze Dragon can negate your investment almost entirely by swapping one of its 2nd level spells known for wraithstrike.

That's true. Another reason to prefer Greater Magic Weapon + Defending.



Are we also going to be considering the parties in which someone casts planar binding, summons up an Efreet, and starts asking for arbitrarily expensive magic items? What about the ones where they "just" summon up a dozen Glabrezus and start bossing them around?

The permissible level of planar binding (ab)use is a tough one. I'm not sure how to handle it.


I'll grant you that fitting in to normal-sized spaces is important, but +32 STR is a larger bonus to your damage than GMW taking you all the way from medium to colossal (24 v 21.5, assuming a greatclub).

If you make it a heavy maul instead Greater Mighty Wallop does +33 damage in expectation. More generally though, you can get by with a small heavy maul, making it +35 damage. And, given that the weapon does the damage rather than strength, the incentive to go into the two (or multi) weapon fighting tree is fairly strong. Thus, the wizard using giant size with heavy small mauls suitable use of heroics, persistent wraith strike will have an attack routine dealing 58/58/58/58/50/50/50 damage, which is significantly superior to 64/64/64/64 damage. There is benefit from the size bonus to strength here, but it's only 23% of damage.



Sure, but polymorph is in contention for the best spell relative to its level in the game, and draconic polymorph is strictly better. Discarding something objectively powerful because there is something else that is similar at a lower level is making your list less accurate. Which, sure, maybe that's what you want to do. Maybe this list is meant to be a guide for Sorcerers or Favored Souls or other characters that care a lot about minimizing overlap. But a Wizard doesn't particularly care if they know a spell that's kinda redundant, because knowing spells is cheap as a Wizard.
Perhaps one way to describe the objective is: What is a list of spells (from any list) with the property that you do not regret (in expectation over game play) not swapping in another spell?

[Anthrowhale]

Which is a long way to say, it depends on whether there's a reason parties don't use PaO effects.

I can certainly see role play reasons why a character may avoid any particular spell, including PaO. I'm not sure how that can be taken into account in this list, because role play reasons vary so much.



5) Tactical Considerations. Unlike, say, Greater Magic Weapon or Magic Vestment, PaO is kinda obvious. it changes the odds the opposition will value Dispel effects against the party. (If, you know, the opposition has such effects, and the opposition is actually being roleplayed instead of war gamed.)

Yeah, this is one of the reasons I like PaO[Kelvezu]. About as solid a defensive and offensive package as you can get. And it just happens to be a medium scale creature. Add a hat of disguise, and you are normalish looking.

[Anthrowhale]

I just don't think there are any direct damage spells in the game that actually are that good.
You also think shivering touch is 'meh'? Different category? Or not included in the above.

[RandomPeasant]

Note please Kelpstrand which is a pretty good multitarget non-damaging offensive spell. I agree it's not an AoE, but the distinction between multitarget and AoE seems marginal in most circumstances.

You can and should continue to learn combat spells at each new level. The fact that a Sorcerer has to rely on previous-level combat spells if it learns a utility spell at a new level is a huge part of why the class sucks (second only to learning new spell levels a level behind the Wizard).


This seems like a striking claim. At ECL6, how does haste contribute more than 24d6 damage against 4 enemies?

It's an extra Rogue attack (3d6 SA + 1d4 to 1d8 weapon + maybe 1 or 2 from ability score), plus an extra Fighter attack (2d6 greatsword + ~9 STR), plus an extra Cleric attack (much more variable, but it should math out to at least the equivalent of 2d6). That's already roughly the same average damage as 13d6, then you tag two Ettin Skeletons for an additional 4d6+12, which gets you to (again, roughly) 20d6 in total. So, yes, you are a bit short on the first round. But this is a ridiculously favorable situation for fireball, and haste still pulls ahead if you get a second round.


If the 4 enemies average 21 hit points, they are going down after ~24d6 damage, implying that haste contributes at most ~12d6.

The first four CR 2 monsters in the SRD (alphabetically) are the 3rd-level Astral Construct, the Ape, the Azer, and the Bat Swarm. Of these, one (the Azer) is immune to fire, and two others (the Astral Construct and the Ape) have more than 21 HP. The Bat Swarm does go down even if you roll quite poorly, so I suppose if your enemy is "a whole lot of bats", fireball measures up nicely. But in general, it doesn't seem like it's accomplishing a whole lot.


If we go with Greater Magic Weapon instead and deck out in defending weapons, I believe this is no longer true.

I mean if you deck out in enough weapons for GMW + Defending to be a big impact on your AC you are either an archer with Defending arrows (reasonable, but not super concerned about AC), or you have so many attacks the thing you actually want to do is be a Rogue and turn everyone into paste in one attack.


I think the question: at what level is Major Image preferred to Dispel Magic when you have access to Silent Image and Ghost Sounds? My present expectation is ECL6-10. Above ECL10, you'll rapidly want to switch to reliance on Greater Dispel Magic.

greater dispel magic doesn't factor in, because it goes in 6th level slots, not 3rd level ones. If anything, it's an argument in favor of major image, because the case for using your 3rd level slots for dispel magic evaporates at that point.

As far as how you use your 3rd level slots at 6th level, I'm still picking major image over dispel magic, even if the later is more unique. Dispelling-as-dispelling is not very impressive at 6th level, because you simply aren't going to run in to that many (frankly, any) opponents who have a long enough list of buffs for removing some of them to be worth an action, let alone a spell slot. Countermagic is in the cards, but it's frankly mediocre without investing resources in it, and even then it is only useful if the exact situation you are in is "there is an enemy spellcaster who is so dangerous that the best use of your action is negating theirs", and that situation is not something you can dedicate a prepared spell to on a regular basis (let alone a spell known if you are a Sorcerer or Favored Soul).


The range matters here. We already have extremely potent melee combat. What's lacking is extremely potent ranged combat. How can we get that out of spells?

If you think range advantage is that important, just have your Cleric do a Cleric Archer build. It's the original for a reason.


PAO can clearly violate the "subject's HD" restriction, but not the "maximum of 15 HD" restriction. Is violating a part of sentence the same as violating all of the sentence or not? I prefer the former.

Where is the rules interpretation that suggests restrictions are severable on the level of clauses of a sentence? I do not see any a priori reason to default to this understanding of the rules that does not amount to "the spell would be unmanageably broken if we didn't", but that is an untenable approach to rules interpretation. By far the most parsimonious reading is that there is a restriction on how many HD the form is allowed to have and PAO removes it.


What is a list of spells (from any list) with the property that you do not regret (in expectation over game play) not swapping in another spell?

I do not believe a character exists for whom this is a useful question to answer, but excluding Trapsmith spells does not make the list incorrect.


Yeah, this is one of the reasons I like PaO[Kelvezu]. About as solid a defensive and offensive package as you can get. And it just happens to be a medium scale creature. Add a hat of disguise, and you are normalish looking.

So how do you feel about planar binding (Kelvezu), which gets you your Kelvezu four levels early, lets you keep your own actions, and can be repeated for credit? Is that an appropriate component of our analysis?


You also think shivering touch is 'meh'? Different category? Or not included in the above.

shivering touch is absolutely in a different category, because it doesn't do hit point damage. The difference between chewing through a Great Wyrm Red Dragon's 660 HP and its 10 DEX is stark.

[Anthrowhale]

Re Major Image and True Seeing:
True Seeing certainly does have limits. I'm not averse to Major Image except in that I don't see a major capability gap to Silent Image.



(insidious magic etc.)
Ah---I wasn't aware of that one. Cloak of Khyber is another and apparently it's not redundant because Insidious Magic does not apply to Transmutations.



Even if such illusions aren't in play, it still generally takes intelligent opponents a round or two of combat to size up unknown opponents with any degree of accuracy.

Note that it's not to uncommon for the bad guys to have some out of combat rounds to size up as well.



So it's easy to argue that Invisibility, illusions, and stealth buffs are much stronger in information warfare than more obvious buffs like PaO.

Yeah, I totally buy this with the caveat that there are some ways to use PaO effectively without leaking information (i.e. PaO[Kelvezu]+Hat of Disguise).



It seems that, if we're talking about the 10 best spells, that it is in the context of the optimal strategies. Does anyone have experience with information warfare in 3e, to give their experiences on what, exactly, the optimal strategies are wrt defenses and getting intelligent foes to target them poorly? (Also, what the optimal strategy is given the simultaneous existence of unintelligent foes?)

I've primarily relied on stealth rather than misdirection, but I can easily believe misdirection strategies are powerful.


Wings of Flurry
That's a real possibility at level 4. The somewhat 'meh' aspect here is the range. There are lots of ways to inflict very serious damage at point-blank range. WoF is slightly beyond point blank range, but not much beyond.



In exchange for these three advantages, WoF has one critical problem for any dedicated build. Even enlarged, WoF is limited to 60'. Fireball starts at 600', and only gets better.

Technically, Widen WoF does nothing because the range is still 30' and Enlarge WoF also doesn't work because the range is not Close, Medium, or Long.

[Anthrowhale]

What happens when the dragon casts wraithstrike and can now Power Attack for something north of twenty points per attack?

Red paint is the default, unless defenses are anchored in touch AC.



You need to make a variety of different investments in AC for it to even start being relevant, so singling out any particular one of them (let alone one as relatively marginal as greater magic vestment) as a "top ten spell" does not strike me as correct.

What about Greater Magic Weapon+Defending applied repeatedly?



To kill an Annis, Lamia, or Wyvern with one cast at CL 6, you need to triple the average damage of fireball.

Fireball is a tool for dealing with mobs and for dealing damage at long range. It can be used on single adversaries, but that's not why you would pick it.

The difficulty here is that nothing is great at long range. Looking through possibilities, Chain Missile and Melf's Acid Arrow eventually do similar damage with no save to a single adversary (only), but at twice the level. Scintillating Sphere (on the warmage list early) is basically Lightning Ball which seems no more appealing than Fireball, and ... that's it.

Looking at BFC instead, we already have Entangle. Dolorous Motes is ok, but the new save each round means it's effective duration may be to small for you to change range and apply alternate effects. Flashburst just applies Blindness, but I'm not sure that's a strong enough status effect to be worth it. Sleet Storm also is something creatures can get around with a few tries.

We could just give up on affecting things at long range, of course. For mobs at short range... they _usually_ can't attack that effectively although a mob of wizard apprentices is something you would want to mop up very fast indeed.


Again, I am begging you to consider what you mean by "top ten" in more detail. Just because something covers a new niche does not mean it is better than things that cover existing niches very well. If I offer you "a really big house in Malibu", "a pretty big house in Malibu", and "a cup of coffee", the last is not the second most valuable merely because the first dominates the second!

How about: Given the set of spells chosen so far, is there a substitution of a subset which we regret not taking across the distribution of encounters/challenges in play?

[Anthrowhale]

For example a level 6 human wizard with Fiery Spell, Arcane Thesis (Fireball), Mark of the Enlightened Soul and an Empowered Spellshard does (8d6+8)*2 or 72 average damage on a failed save, at least against evil enemies. He can also boost that a lot further still with stuff like Raging Flame, Caustic Mire, various CL boosts, metamagic and so on.

Mark of the Enlightened Soul is a 4th level spell, unfortunately. Maybe just add in Bloodline of Fire? Then, you'll deal (10d6+10)*1.5 = 67.5 damage on a failed save. Alternatively, Reserves of Strength would allow you to deal even more damage at the cost of self-Stun.

[Anthrowhale]

It's amortized in the sense that any particular spell is not exclusively responsible for it, but you are investing quite a large chunk of your overall resources into a buffing build that not every character is going to want to go for.

I buy that. Part of the reason to have a '10' instead of '1' or '3' is that there is some redundancy. Hopefully, the Shadowcraft Mage can pick and choose something that's handy.



I would like to again register this is not remotely what "combo" is typically understood to mean. That's just a bunch of things that stack. Is a magic weapon a "combo" with a Belt of Giant Strength?

I'm not sure how else to say "stack particularly well". Wraithstrike magnifies Greater Mighty Wallop because you hit more often. Bladesong magnifies both Wraithstrike and GMW since there is no "getting away" option----creatures are just wheat for threshing.



I'm sort of shaky on putting magic circle on the list. On the one hand, it does have a pretty direct and important connection to planar binding (there is a reasonable argument the spell does not work without it). On the other hand, I do not think it is especially useful to have a spell on the list (almost) exclusively because you are casting it in conjunction with another spell, particularly because that's happening in downtime. What's the use-case where someone looks at the 3rd level list and benefits from seeing a spell that is good because of its synergy with 5th, 6th, or 8th level spells? How compelling is that use-case compared to the version where there is a more generally-applicable 3rd level spell on the list and the entry for planar binding says that you should also have the spells that make it go?

Yeah, I'm uncertain at the moment as well.



You know what's even better at stopping people from killing you? Minions for them to try to kill instead. Minions on its own is substantially better than your whole buffstack on its own, let alone any individual spell. And you'll note that there's one guy here arguing for summon monster III on this list.

This is some real difference in our viewpoints. I find minions mostly lackluster. They're usually substantially underpower for the character level where they are available, making them bypassable by intelligent adversaries and a stealth liability. Domination effects can avoid that fate, as does Ice Assassin. Apparently Animate Dead does as well, at least for awhile. Some summons buffing can broaden this a bit, but it's fairly expensive in terms of character resources.



What is the principled distinction (e.g. not just "that one's better") whereby you can PAO people into combat forms but you can't wish for a Belt of Magnificence +1,000?
The Belt of Magnificence+1000 is not actually an existing item.

[Anthrowhale]

You can and should continue to learn combat spells at each new level. The fact that a Sorcerer has to rely on previous-level combat spells if it learns a utility spell at a new level is a huge part of why the class sucks (second only to learning new spell levels a level behind the Wizard).

The combat spells should be better then. What's better than Kelpstrand at level 3 and why?



The first four CR 2 monsters in the SRD (alphabetically) are the 3rd-level Astral Construct, the Ape, the Azer, and the Bat Swarm. Of these, one (the Azer) is immune to fire, and two others (the Astral Construct and the Ape) have more than 21 HP. The Bat Swarm does go down even if you roll quite poorly, so I suppose if your enemy is "a whole lot of bats", fireball measures up nicely. But in general, it doesn't seem like it's accomplishing a whole lot.

I'm not sure what the median hp is, but presumably it's less than or equal to the mean. Hence, if you keep going through the list, I expect you'll find more opportunities.



I mean if you deck out in enough weapons for GMW + Defending to be a big impact on your AC you are either an archer with Defending arrows (reasonable, but not super concerned about AC), or you have so many attacks the thing you actually want to do is be a Rogue and turn everyone into paste in one attack.

My understanding is that with kneeblades/elbow blades/boot blades you can have quite a few weapons but you don't actually increase your number of attacks. (You can however choose which weapon to use for each attack.)



greater dispel magic doesn't factor in, because it goes in 6th level slots, not 3rd level ones. If anything, it's an argument in favor of major image, because the case for using your 3rd level slots for dispel magic evaporates at that point.

Dispel Magic is currently listed as ECL6 only. Do you think Major Image should be on the ECL6 list instead? Or the ECL20?



As far as how you use your 3rd level slots at 6th level, I'm still picking major image over dispel magic, even if the later is more unique.

Noted.


If you think range advantage is that important, just have your Cleric do a Cleric Archer build. It's the original for a reason.

Is Cleric Archer any better than a Rogue archer? And how would you hit reliably?


Where is the rules interpretation that suggests restrictions are severable on the level of clauses of a sentence? I do not see any a priori reason to default to this understanding of the rules that does not amount to "the spell would be unmanageably broken if we didn't", but that is an untenable approach to rules interpretation. By far the most parsimonious reading is that there is a restriction on how many HD the form is allowed to have and PAO removes it.

I'm just going with the conservative reading so it's more broadly applicable across DMs.


I do not believe a character exists for whom this is a useful question to answer, but excluding Trapsmith spells does not make the list incorrect.

Not sure I follow--Can you restate without double negation?


So how do you feel about planar binding (Kelvezu), which gets you your Kelvezu four levels early, lets you keep your own actions, and can be repeated for credit? Is that an appropriate component of our analysis?

There are a few issues:
(1) In playable games, the retribution clause of planar binding is enforced.
(2) Polymorph[Kelvezu] is actually available about the same time as Planar Binding[Kelvezu], so the advantage in access is minimal.
(3) One of the subtle disadvantages of minions is that they cause you to spread your wealth by level and buff slots more thinly. That's ok against weaker adversaries, but against strong adversaries it actually worsens your position.


shivering touch is absolutely in a different category, because it doesn't do hit point damage. The difference between chewing through a Great Wyrm Red Dragon's 660 HP and its 10 DEX is stark.
I agree with the starkness, but it is direct, and it is a form of damage.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Mark of the Enlightened Soul is a 4th level spell, unfortunately. Maybe just add in Bloodline of Fire? Then, you'll deal (10d6+10)*1.5 = 67.5 damage on a failed save. Alternatively, Reserves of Strength would allow you to deal even more damage at the cost of self-Stun.

Whoops. The dangers of late-night posting. You're right of course, but my point that boosting damage to relevant levels doesn't take an excessive amount of optimization stands with your substitution.

[Chronos]

Quoth sleepyphoenixx:

It's more than you need for most other spells but we're not exactly talking about a mailman build here. I'd consider 2 feats, a buff and 6k gp pretty mild as far as optimizing a character goes.
We're creating a Top Ten list for every level, which means that by the end, we're going to have 100 spells on our lists. A character might reasonably want to have access to all of them, or at least half if we're allowing for the fact that they're not all on the same class. If we're looking to optimize the use of 50 different spells, then no, using a quarter of your entire feat allotment to optimize one of them is not reasonable.

Quoth Anthrowhale:

You also think shivering touch is 'meh'? Different category? Or not included in the above.
I suppose that ability damage can technically be called "direct damage", but it's really a fundamentally different thing than HP damage.

Maybe a bit off topic, since this is the 3rd level thread, but a couple of other points:
1: Another major advantage of Wings of Flurry is the selective targeting. You can have enemies and allies mixed together in the area of effect, and hit only the enemies. That removes what's traditionally the most common problem with Fireball.

2: Summon Monster spells do add a great deal of utility and versatility in general, but I think I would wait until Summon Monster IV to add it to the Top 10 list. That's mostly because Summon Monster IV is, to my knowledge, the first army-killer spell (as in, a spell that you could use to defeat thousands of low-level enemy soldiers), via Yeth Hound. It also includes the Lantern Archon, which gives you a Magic Circle against Evil and a few other benefits (Greater Teleport, Aid, free Continual Flame). Before IV, Summon Monster is mostly just a variety of beatsticks, for which Summon Nature's Ally is better (in particular, SNA can get Small Elementals at level II instead of III).

[Anthrowhale]

Whoops. The dangers of late-night posting. You're right of course, but my point that boosting damage to relevant levels doesn't take an excessive amount of optimization stands with your substitution.
No worries, and agreed. I wasn't familiar with the Empowered Spellshard, so thanks.


If we're looking to optimize the use of 50 different spells, then no, using a quarter of your entire feat allotment to optimize one of them is not reasonable.
Reserves of strength, at least, could be heavily amortized in use. Between that and the Empowered Spellshard you deal 9d6*1.5 = 47.25, enough to at least drop the Annis Hag and putting the others within 1 sword swing of death. I'm somewhat surprised, actually---I've never really thought of Fireball as a good single-target spell.



1: Another major advantage of Wings of Flurry is the selective targeting.

Yep, agreed.



It also includes the Lantern Archon, which gives you a Magic Circle against Evil and a few other benefits (Greater Teleport, Aid, free Continual Flame).
The extra effects unlock is definitely worth considering. I'd be tempted to wait until SMVI though, since you can unlock effects from IV, V, and VI tables.

[RandomPeasant]

That's a real possibility at level 4. The somewhat 'meh' aspect here is the range. There are lots of ways to inflict very serious damage at point-blank range. WoF is slightly beyond point blank range, but not much beyond.

Aren't most of your defenses of fireball predicated not on the range, but its ability to hit multiple targets? WoF is just as effective there, except it effects a larger total area and can avoid hitting allies.


The difficulty here is that nothing is great at long range.

Sure, but "deal damage at Long range" is not a niche that is going to be relevant very often. Are you really going to run around with fireball prepared over stinking cloud every day (let alone with one of your spells known spent on it as a Sorcerer) just in hopes that you hit the "we need to blow up that guard tower over there" encounter?


a mob of wizard apprentices is something you would want to mop up very fast indeed.

Sure, but stinking cloud reduces them to useless and has a far broader applicability than fireball.


How about: Given the set of spells chosen so far, is there a substitution of a subset which we regret not taking across the distribution of encounters/challenges in play?

Not sure I follow--Can you restate without double negation?

These are really the same issue, and that issue is essentially "chosen by who"? Not chosen by a Sorcerer or Favored Soul, as neither of them gets ten spells of each level. Not chosen by a Cleric, as the Cleric only chooses Domains (and can't choose those completely freely or purely based on spell access). Not chosen by a Wizard, because a Wizard can't learn glibness or 3rd level animate dead or kelpstrand. Not chosen by an Artificer, because an Artificer can chose Trapsmith haste or any number of other early-access or PrC options. And if, for instance, not chosen by a Druid, can we really justify venomfire without Wild Shape and an animal companion?


I'm not sure how else to say "stack particularly well".

But it's not that wraithstrike stacks "particularly well" with greater mighty wallop. There's no specific interaction there at all. I could give you, for instance, venomfire + polymorph as that can take you both from "no attacks that get the venomfire dice" to "lots of attacks that get the venomfire dice" and "attacks that deal one die of damage" to "attacks that deal one die per CL of damage". But the "combo" with wraithstrike is just that wraithstrike is very good. The expected damage output of A + B is just the expected damage output of A plus the expected damage output of B, which is not indicative of any real synergy.


This is some real difference in our viewpoints. I find minions mostly lackluster. They're usually substantially underpower for the character level where they are available, making them bypassable by intelligent adversaries and a stealth liability.

If minions are a liability, why is it important to have fireball to clear out weak enemies?


The Belt of Magnificence+1000 is not actually an existing item.

There is no restriction in the description of wish that limits you to "existing items".


The combat spells should be better then. What's better than Kelpstrand at level 3 and why?

fireball is also not better than kelpstrand. But, broadly speaking, kelpstrand targets touch AC and grapple bonus. You might want effects that target Fort saves (stinking cloud), Will saves (major image, shadow binding), or several different saves (great thunderclap). In particular, kelpstrand is going to be fairly mediocre against various large-and-up sized bruiser monsters, as their grapple bonus will outscale yours fairly easily (a CR 6 Ettin, for instance, has a +17 grapple check, making kelpstrand fairly useless).


I'm not sure what the median hp is, but presumably it's less than or equal to the mean. Hence, if you keep going through the list, I expect you'll find more opportunities.

Perhaps you could go through the list, as you are the one hoping to make an affirmative case for fireball.


My understanding is that with kneeblades/elbow blades/boot blades you can have quite a few weapons but you don't actually increase your number of attacks. (You can however choose which weapon to use for each attack.)

In that case, making them Defending won't help you, as Defending allows you to "allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon", meaning it does nothing if you never actually use the weapon. I agree that this is a somewhat finnicky reading, and as a DM I would probably let it slide if you wanted to claim an AC bonus from your one Defending sword without actually using it, but if your plan is to have a half-dozen Defending weapons and turn all of them into stacking +5 AC bonuses, I think you can reasonably expect to get rules-lawyered back.


Dispel Magic is currently listed as ECL6 only. Do you think Major Image should be on the ECL6 list instead? Or the ECL20?

Certainly the ECL 6 list. I don't think it makes the ECL 20 list, but I also think that having an ECL 20 list is not really capturing what you want it to. There are lots of spells that are comparatively long-lasting in their utility, but still fall off by 20th level (animate dead being another example), while I think there are very few spells that are bad at, say, ECL 12 (for 3rd level spells), but become good once you reach ECL 20.


Is Cleric Archer any better than a Rogue archer? And how would you hit reliably?

A Cleric Archer will likely have a lower damage output than the Rogue (assuming the Rogue reliably gets SA), but has the advantage of also being a Cleric who comes to the table with spells like animate dead for free. You hit somewhat less reliably than a melee build because there are fewer DEX bonuses than there are STR ones, but the advantage is that you get to stand behind your skeletons (and the Wizard's skeletons, and some outsiders, and maybe an animal companion or some mind-controlled mooks).


I'm just going with the conservative reading so it's more broadly applicable across DMs.

I think "we PAO ourselves into good combat forms" is not broadly applicable across DMs.


In playable games, the retribution clause of planar binding is enforced.

In playable games, free usage of planar binding is not allowed. "You are overpowered until a demon lord shows up to merc you" is not any better of a paradigm than just "you are overpowered".


Polymorph[Kelvezu] is actually available about the same time as Planar Binding[Kelvezu], so the advantage in access is minimal.

polymorph (Kelvezu) is quite different from PAO (Kelvezu). If you want to turn people into Kelvezus on a per-fight basis, that's much more fine than the idea that people just walk around as Kelvezus all the time.


One of the subtle disadvantages of minions is that they cause you to spread your wealth by level and buff slots more thinly. That's ok against weaker adversaries, but against strong adversaries it actually worsens your position.

Monsters have level-appropriate combat stats to start with. You don't need to spend cash or spells to make a Kelvezu able to fight appropriately at 12th level, it's a CR 18 monster that is expected to fight appropriately at 18th level with just its printed stats. More than that, buff spells like haste have a target cap well over your normal party size, meaning you are going to want some number of minions just so your extra charges don't go to waste.


Summon Monster spells do add a great deal of utility and versatility in general, but I think I would wait until Summon Monster IV to add it to the Top 10 list. That's mostly because Summon Monster IV is, to my knowledge, the first army-killer spell (as in, a spell that you could use to defeat thousands of low-level enemy soldiers), via Yeth Hound. It also includes the Lantern Archon, which gives you a Magic Circle against Evil and a few other benefits (Greater Teleport, Aid, free Continual Flame). Before IV, Summon Monster is mostly just a variety of beatsticks, for which Summon Nature's Ally is better (in particular, SNA can get Small Elementals at level II instead of III).

The problem with summon monster IV is that 4th is the level where lesser planar ally, necrotic domination, charm monster, and general-access animate dead all become available. It's the first summon monster I would recommend preparing, but even then I wouldn't recommend it at either ECL 8 (not good enough to take up a top-level spell slot) or ECL 20 (you can prepare a higher level summon monster and still not give up a spell slot you really need), and I'm not sure there's even an intermediary ECL where it makes a top ten list.

[Quertus]

What exactly is "rare" about that dragon? It's a stock dragon that has taken what is easily in the top five best spells for dragons (and probably the best). I guess maybe it also had to swap a feat for Power Attack, but if you're talking about Tainted Sorcerers and Necrotic Domination, that hardly seems an unreasonable level of optimization for a monster to do.

There are, my senile mind thinks, around 300 published spells of each level. If Sorcerer’s abilities give them 6 spells known at that level, that’s only a 2% chance of randomly knowing that spell; less if you take into account all the “core only” Dragons one often finds in the wild.

And then, on top of those 1-in-50 odds, it has a nonstandard, complimentary feat? I can imagine many an epic Dragonslayer having never encountered such a rare find.

The party is already blessed with their rare find of a Tainted Sorcerer with Necrotic Domination1, now they’re twice-blessed to also have a rare Pokémon Dragon minion.

Obviously, I can agree with you from a Gamist / game balance perspective, but this dragon is rare from a Simulationist PoV.

1 although at least the Sorceress could have intentionally, y’know, Intended to go this route, so this rarity is more a cultural artifact / nature of the NPC population guidelines.


You know what's even better at stopping people from killing you? Minions for them to try to kill instead. Minions on its own is substantially better than your whole buffstack on its own, let alone any individual spell. And you'll note that there's one guy here arguing for summon monster III on this list.

Cannon fodder provides a 4-point cover bonus that dedicated archers and many spells will ignore, or consider insufficient protection for the (presumably terrible) touch AC they’re targeting. Fight + Invisibility is a vastly superior defense, as it completely no-sells targeted spells, and turns other ranged attacks into protracted math games.


Sure. But my point is that if we're counting that, I'm not sure where the bright line that causes us to not count the even more abusively powerful applications of planar binding, at which point the whole thing collapses into farce. What is the principled distinction (e.g. not just "that one's better") whereby you can PAO people into combat forms but you can't wish for a Belt of Magnificence +1,000? They're both equally RAW-legal, they're both equally Core-only, they're both equally straightforward. It's just that they're both, you know, cheese.

No, I don’t know. Define “cheese”.

(Note that any definition that involves how good it is should provoke laughter in a thread dedicated to, you know, determining how good something is.)

I could understand a definition of “cheese” involving tortured interpretations of the text that make evil Overlord mandated 5-year-old advisors roll their eyes. But PaO is playing a different game, playing by a different set of rules than ECL. That doesn’t involve tortured English, that’s just how the spell works. So that can’t be your objection.

I could understand a definition of “cheese” involving RAW vs RAI, like taking an obvious typo at face value. But PaO ever doesn’t reference ECL (nor does any of the Polymorphing line, iirc), so there’s nothing of this sort for you to object to, either.

So how, exactly, are you defining “cheese” here?


I can certainly see role play reasons why a character may avoid any particular spell, including PaO. I'm not sure how that can be taken into account in this list, because role play reasons vary so much.

Oh, sorry I was unclear: Roleplay reasons (as opposed to “roleplay” reasons) should absolutely not be taken into account in this thread when determining what Spell is “best”. I simply included them for completeness of my conjecture for why such spells… see play, but don’t see that particular use case IME. And to provide an example of how not all reasons are valid for consideration.

But all of this is just an aside, a distraction from the larger topic of clearly defining the criteria by which spells are to be considered.


Yeah, this is one of the reasons I like PaO[Kelvezu]. About as solid a defensive and offensive package as you can get. And it just happens to be a medium scale creature. Add a hat of disguise, and you are normalish looking.

Under such circumstances, how long would you think it would take an intelligent foe (such as a PC) to get what kind of evaluation of this creature?


Note that it's not to uncommon for the bad guys to have some out of combat rounds to size up as well.


Yeah, I totally buy this with the caveat that there are some ways to use PaO effectively without leaking information (i.e. PaO[Kelvezu]+Hat of Disguise).


I've primarily relied on stealth rather than misdirection, but I can easily believe misdirection strategies are powerful.

With stealth, they don’t get those rounds; with misdirection, you actively want them to have just long enough to form a strategy around the armored form your Hat of Disguise Vulnerable AC 9 Wizard appears to be. (Or whatever other appearance whatever is beneath those illusions has, to match whatever layer you’re playing this game at.)

[Chronos]

Where does it say that dragons choose their spells randomly? I have played around with the idea of a character who didn't (in-character) choose their own spells, and got stuck with spells that didn't fit their personality, but that's very much the exception: The usual expectation in play is that any spellcaster with limited spells known chose those spells. Or, alternately, if it's OK for a player to choose optimized spells for their sorcerer (whether the character likes them or not), why is it not similarly OK for the DM to choose optimized spells for their dragon (whether the dragon likes them or not)?

On the combat spells, I think we're suffering some from analysis paralysis. Any of Stinking Cloud, Shadow Binding, or Great Thunderclap is better overall than Fireball (while still acknowledging, of course, that there are some niches where Fireball will be better). But it looks like we still have Fireball listed, and not any of those other spells, just because we can't make up our minds which of those spells to put in in place of Fireball.

[Fero]

I am probably alone in this but I find Stinking Cloud to be a bit lackluster in 3.5, at least against intelligent foes/DMs in cramped battlefields (i.e. dungeons). My problem is that the enemy force can simply retreat behind the cloud and wait out the nausea. This then delays the combat, lets the enemy escape (and warn other foes in the dungeon), or forces the party to charge through. I see how you can use it to divide and Conquer by gassing only a portion of the enemy force. However, due to the large AoE I find that a bit tricky and prefer other tools (notably walls).

I guess you can pair Stinking Cloud with Invisible Spell so you can shoot nauseated foes without the cloud blocking LoS. That would be pretty good but forces you to navigate Invisible Spell's quirks with the DM.

[Anthrowhale]

I am probably alone in this but I find Stinking Cloud to be a bit lackluster in 3.5, at least against intelligent foes/DMs in cramped battlefields (i.e. dungeons). My problem is that the enemy force can simply retreat behind the cloud and wait out the nausea. This then delays the combat, lets the enemy escape (and warn other foes in the dungeon), or forces the party to charge through. I see how you can use it to divide and Conquer by gassing only a portion of the enemy force. However, due to the large AoE I find that a bit tricky and prefer other tools (notably walls).

I'm in agreement. Nauseated just isn't that strong of a condition. In most cases, it's weaker than frightened, with run-away-get-your-buddies-and-set-traps is not a great outcome.

The only strong condition you seem to be able to generate with level 3 spells is via Deep Slumber or damage-to-drop effects. Deep Slumber is unappealing because of the 10HD cap and 1 round casting time (~= voluntarily losing initiative). We already have the two most convincing damaging effects (Shivering Touch and Venomfire).



On the combat spells, I think we're suffering some from analysis paralysis. Any of Stinking Cloud, Shadow Binding, or Great Thunderclap is better overall than Fireball (while still acknowledging, of course, that there are some niches where Fireball will be better). But it looks like we still have Fireball listed, and not any of those other spells, just because we can't make up our minds which of those spells to put in in place of Fireball.

Of these, Shadow Binding seems the most interesting to me since it actively prevents "run away and fight another day". The biggest issue is that it's a similar-but-weaker effect than Kelpstrand.

Sleepyphoenix's fireball optimization seems significant. With just Reserves of Strength (which is a good all-around feat) the Empowered Spellshard gives you 9d6*1.5 ~= 47.25 expected damage. That drops the CR 3 (mean 27) or less, may drop CR4s (mean 48hp), and even deals 70% of the mean CR6 (69 hp). 70% of the way to resolving an encounter is significant---a party with a Sorcerer 6, Rogue 1/Wizard 5, Cleric, and Fighter could plausibly end 3 encounters/day up to long range in the first round.

[RandomPeasant]

Any of Stinking Cloud, Shadow Binding, or Great Thunderclap is better overall than Fireball (while still acknowledging, of course, that there are some niches where Fireball will be better). But it looks like we still have Fireball listed, and not any of those other spells, just because we can't make up our minds which of those spells to put in in place of Fireball.

Strongly endorsed. I do not actually care very much which specific 3rd level offensive spell you learn. There are a bunch of them, and all of them have pros and cons. But any of them are better than fireball, because damaging spells are not very good (as evinced by all the supplemental options the people defending them are using, while the setup for major image or great thunderclap is just "cast it").


Obviously, I can agree with you from a Gamist / game balance perspective, but this dragon is rare from a Simulationist PoV.

So the dragon is rare in a way that does not matter and common in a way that does. I am glad we have been able to bring this discussion to a productive close.


Cannon fodder provides a 4-point cover bonus that dedicated archers and many spells will ignore, or consider insufficient protection for the (presumably terrible) touch AC they’re targeting. Fight + Invisibility is a vastly superior defense, as it completely no-sells targeted spells, and turns other ranged attacks into protracted math games.

It completely no-sells targeted spells in the event that you are able to have a round/level 4th level spell up all the time and your enemies have no access to a minutes/level 5th level spell. It turns ranged attacks into protracted math games in the event that you are able to consistently engage enemies in open spaces with wide vertical movement. And it does nothing to actually remove your enemies from the fight. Minions, on the other hand, are generally not countered by specific spells (though, sure, watch out for protection from evil if your the one non-Diplomancer Beguiler out there), fight effectively on a wide variety of different terrains, and are fairly adept at killing your opponents.


So how, exactly, are you defining “cheese” here?

I think that is a very good question that you should develop a clear answer to before setting out to answer questions about character power, such as "which spells are best at each level". Somewhat less glibly, my view would be that while outlier options should be highlighted individually (I would not want to leave polymorph any object off the 8th level list, nor planar binding off the 6th), using them to drive your assessment of other options produces a list that is highly insular, and useful to a far smaller variety of potential characters.


I am probably alone in this but I find Stinking Cloud to be a bit lackluster in 3.5, at least against intelligent foes/DMs in cramped battlefields (i.e. dungeons). My problem is that the enemy force can simply retreat behind the cloud and wait out the nausea. This then delays the combat, lets the enemy escape (and warn other foes in the dungeon), or forces the party to charge through. I see how you can use it to divide and Conquer by gassing only a portion of the enemy force. However, due to the large AoE I find that a bit tricky and prefer other tools (notably walls).

The trick is that stinking cloud gets a lot better if you have some allies who are immune to the cloud. That's not necessarily trivial for PCs, but fortunately we've already got animate dead on the list at this level. So you can send your skeletons right on through to go beat up on the enemies who can't take actions. It also doesn't require that large of a space to simply be able to position the cloud in a way that it hits most or all of your enemies, but leaves space to maneuver around the edges.


I'm in agreement. Nauseated just isn't that strong of a condition. In most cases, it's weaker than frightened, with run-away-get-your-buddies-and-set-traps is not a great outcome.

Is there an alternative spell that inflicts Frightened at scale out of a 3rd-or-lower level slot? If there is, I'm happy to have that one on the list instead. If there's not, I'm not sure what the point of comparing a thing you can do to one you can't is.


Deep Slumber is unappealing because of the 10HD cap and 1 round casting time (~= voluntarily losing initiative).

I'll give you the casting time, but I do not really think the HD cap is that much more of an issue at ECL 6 than fireball's anemic damage is. deep slumber hits enough HD to take out an ettin, fireball does less than a third its HP. Against four apes deep slumber takes out half of them while fireball takes all of them from "dies in one round to the party melee" to "dies in one round to the party melee". It scales very poorly, but I don't think anyone is arguing for fireball at ECL 20.


Of these, Shadow Binding seems the most interesting to me since it actively prevents "run away and fight another day". The biggest issue is that it's a similar-but-weaker effect than Kelpstrand.

It's not a weaker effect, it's a different effect. Targeting Will is not the same as targeting grapple, and being able to attack multiple defenses is valuable.


Sleepyphoenix's fireball optimization seems significant. With just Reserves of Strength (which is a good all-around feat) the Empowered Spellshard gives you 9d6*1.5 ~= 47.25 expected damage.

I agree that it is significant, in that at a comparably significant level of optimization a single-classed Barbarian can deal more damage (yes, only to a single target) without having to dip in to the Dragonlance Campaign Setting and without spending any daily resources. For the amounts of optimization we are talking about the fireball guy doing, someone with major image can get most of the way to a fully-realized Shadowcraft Mage build. Look at the other spells on the list. Does it take anything extra to make glibness good? animate dead? If you need to pick up a bunch of extra stuff to make your spell do what you want, it is probably not very good as a spell, which is where I think this list should be focused.


70% of the way to resolving an encounter is significant

Dealing 70% of the target's HP does not put you 70% of the way to resolving an encounter because you do not always resolve an encounter by dealing exactly 100% of the target's HP in damage. For instance, if your party includes that Barbarian Ubercharger, there's not any difference between an enemy that goes into his turn with 50 HP and one that goes in with 25 HP. They both get redmisted in one charge.

[Anthrowhale]

Aren't most of your defenses of fireball predicated not on the range, but its ability to hit multiple targets?
Range is situational but perhaps not negligible. Otherwise Rolling Cloud would dominate fireball.


These are really the same issue, and that issue is essentially "chosen by who"?

I'm ignoring that for now. There are many ways to get off-list spells, increase spells known, work as a party, or otherwise access a panoply of spells.


But it's not that wraithstrike stacks "particularly well" with greater mighty wallop. There's no specific interaction there at all. ...The expected damage output of A + B is just the expected damage output of A plus the expected damage output of B, which is not indicative of any real synergy.

No these are multiplier effects. With base damage x, GMW does a*x, wraithstrike does b*x, and the combo does a*b*x.


If minions are a liability, why is it important to have fireball to clear out weak enemies?

The range does matter as well. It's good to have _something_ that you can 600' away.



There is no restriction in the description of wish that limits you to "existing items".

Yeah, I'm not going there for this post.



fireball is also not better than kelpstrand. But, broadly speaking, kelpstrand targets touch AC and grapple bonus. You might want effects that target Fort saves (stinking cloud), Will saves (major image, shadow binding), or several different saves (great thunderclap). In particular, kelpstrand is going to be fairly mediocre against various large-and-up sized bruiser monsters, as their grapple bonus will outscale yours fairly easily (a CR 6 Ettin, for instance, has a +17 grapple check, making kelpstrand fairly useless).

Single big enemies tend to be covered by Shivering Touch.



In that case, making them Defending won't help you, as Defending allows you to "allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon", meaning it does nothing if you never actually use the weapon.

Bladesong operates on the same principle. I figure you allocate as many weapons as your attack routine supports and necessity dictates. Any damage done is incidental, but you can dispense daze and/or cranking up AC fairly well.



In playable games, free usage of planar binding is not allowed. "You are overpowered until a demon lord shows up to merc you" is not any better of a paradigm than just "you are overpowered".

Well, it gives a mechanism which adds a bit of depth to things generally. I agree the effect doesn't differ.


Monsters have level-appropriate combat stats to start with. You don't need to spend cash or spells to make a Kelvezu able to fight appropriately at 12th level, it's a CR 18 monster that is expected to fight appropriately at 18th level with just its printed stats. More than that, buff spells like haste have a target cap well over your normal party size, meaning you are going to want some number of minions just so your extra charges don't go to waste.

I agree there are a few incidentals, and they are pretty potent. For a character though, you might layer on persistent Hunter's Eye, persistent Wraithstrike, Riverine Executioner's mace, Bladesong, Greater Mighty Wallop, and Venomfire for a d6 storm.

W.r.t. Major Image, I don't think you've tried to make a case that it's significantly better than Silent Image.

[Anthrowhale]

Under such circumstances, how long would you think it would take an intelligent foe (such as a PC) to get what kind of evaluation of this creature?

I expect that's highly variable.


With stealth, they don’t get those rounds; with misdirection, you actively want them to have just long enough to form a strategy around the armored form your Hat of Disguise Vulnerable AC 9 Wizard appears to be. (Or whatever other appearance whatever is beneath those illusions has, to match whatever layer you’re playing this game at.)
Yep.

[RandomPeasant]

Range is situational but perhaps not negligible. Otherwise Rolling Cloud would dominate fireball.

I would happily turn that argument right around and say that rolling cloud does in fact dominate fireball.


I'm ignoring that for now. There are many ways to get off-list spells, increase spells known, work as a party, or otherwise access a panoply of spells.

How many ways are there to get arbitrary off-list spells that do not also allow you to get Trapsmith spells?


No these are multiplier effects. With base damage x, GMW does a*x, wraithstrike does b*x, and the combo does a*b*x.

But do you not see how that is qualitatively different from venomfire + polymorph, right? venomfire, on its own, does nothing for most characters, as they have no natural weapons that inflict poison. With just polymorph, picking a form with poisonous natural weapons is not particularly powerful. Combining them increases your damage output more than either does individually, whether you want to call that combination additive or multiplicative.


The range does matter as well. It's good to have _something_ that you can 600' away.

It's good to have a lot of things, but resources are scarce. Selectivity, the daze rider, and a better damage type are all relevant more often than Long range.


Single big enemies tend to be covered by Shivering Touch.

At 6th level, you are neither going to be able to Maximize shivering touch, nor use it at a range greater than Touch. This means there are a great many monsters where it is not the ideal solution. The Belker, for instance, has 21 DEX (meaning you cannot take it out with a single shivering touch), but only a +2 Will save. Having something that can target that save is useful.


Bladesong operates on the same principle.

I never understand why these sorts of arguments are relevant. It's entirely possible that lots of things use the same mechanism. Is there some place where Bladesong is explicitly clarified to work the way you want? If not, them both working the unfavorable way is an equally consistent interpretation.


W.r.t. Major Image, I don't think you've tried to make a case that it's significantly better than Silent Image.

I don't think that case particularly needs to be made. Maybe "slightly better silent image" is good enough for 3rd level. Certainly I would take "slightly better polymorph" at 6th level. I would take major image over fireball any day, and given that fireball is currently on the list, I see that as an entirely sufficient argument for major image to be on it as well.

[pabelfly]

Blasting as a strategy is as good as you need it to be, in that it can be optimized to the same level martial damage dealers are. We want to be at a similar power level to everyone else we play with, after all.

For example, in a low-OP game, martial characters won't be able to do full movement and attack. In that environment, a martial character isn't going to be able to kill enemies of a similar level in one turn. An arcane caster of similar optimization is likely dealing their level's worth of d6 damage with their spell choice. Both blaster and martial are dealing a decent proportion of the enemy's health as damage to hasten that enemy's death.

At moderate optimization, the martial character is optimized enough to typically kill at least one opponent per turn. To do this, they have chosen specific races and/or templates and specific classes across several books. In the same way, a caster can one-shot enemies finding ways to improve the damage output of their spells. There's no shortage of ways to boost damage or to bypass drawbacks of difficult spells, and these options can be used elsewhere.

As for Fireball, I think it's a decent blasting spell - not a standout, in terms of performance, but not bad either. The drawbacks have been discussed quite well elsewhere. At low optimization, starting off the encounter with a fireball is going to go a long way in softening up quite a few enemies for the rest of the party, given the 20ft spell radius. At higher levels, I hope you have luck, a good reflex save or fire resistance, or you're just going to be a body that a martial jumps over to deal with the rest of the enemy encounter.

[Anthrowhale]

I swapped Greater Magic Weapon for Magic Vestment since via defending GMW handles AC and via domains it's often possible to get Magic Vestment anyways. The remaining set of "think about it" is:

Battlemagic Perception @ECL20 Allows you to counterspell as a free action.
Disobedience
Anticipate Teleportation @ECL20
Explosive Runes @ECL6&20?
A wall
Shrink Item


Strongly endorsed. I do not actually care very much which specific 3rd level offensive spell you learn. There are a bunch of them, and all of them have pros and cons. But any of them are better than fireball, because damaging spells are not very good (as evinced by all the supplemental options the people defending them are using, while the setup for major image or great thunderclap is just "cast it").

I would like 3rd level spells to be a significant step up from second level spells. Or, at least complementary. We already have (potentially multiple) no-save daze melee (Bladesong), immediate action daze will save close (Vision of Punishment), helpless will save close (Heartache), Entangled refl save long (Entangle), Grappled (Kelpstrand), and touch attack dex damage (Shivering Touch). Weighed against these, a 1 round multi-target stun Will negates (and other minor debufffs) seems like a rather narrow aperture of value. If you want to target Will, we can already do that. Maybe there is a situation with multiple targets (but not to many, since then Fireball becomes efficient) where creatures have a high Refl but a low Will but a high grapple check and attack at range? What would that be?



Is there an alternative spell that inflicts Frightened at scale out of a 3rd-or-lower level slot? If there is, I'm happy to have that one on the list instead. If there's not, I'm not sure what the point of comparing a thing you can do to one you can't is.

I prefer enemies to have no actions at all. So the desired conditions are helpless, stun, daze, cower, ability damage to 0, unconscious, dead, paralyzed, petrified, I'm willing to tradeoff somewhat for multi-target spells (i.e. entangle, kelpstrand) which at least impair mobility.



It's not a weaker effect, it's a different effect. Targeting Will is not the same as targeting grapple, and being able to attack multiple defenses is valuable.

Entangle imposes half movement on a save, unlike Shadow Binding.



I agree that it is significant, in that at a comparably significant level of optimization a single-classed Barbarian can deal more damage (yes, only to a single target) without having to dip in to the Dragonlance Campaign Setting and without spending any daily resources.

I don't believe this. How can a single-classed Barbarian deal more damage to creatures 600' up?

The kind of scenario I'm thinking about is: a human wizard detects the party engaged in overland travel across a plain, casts Alter Self[Avariel], flies 600' above them, and then starts Fireballing. What does the party do? If we don't have a spell response, you are down to longbows/crossbows with an effective AC of 26 = 10 (base)+2(dex)+4(mage armor)+10(range). That's not great. Nothing here is exotic---it's just using common capabilities intelligently to exploit a party weakness.



For the amounts of optimization we are talking about the fireball guy doing, someone with major image can get most of the way to a fully-realized Shadowcraft Mage build. Look at the other spells on the list. Does it take anything extra to make glibness good? animate dead? If you need to pick up a bunch of extra stuff to make your spell do what you want, it is probably not very good as a spell, which is where I think this list should be focused.

Which 'bunch' do you have in mind? Reserves of Strength seems like a pretty good feat anyways. The Empowered Spellshard is expensive for the level, but over the long run there is lots of gold.



Dealing 70% of the target's HP does not put you 70% of the way to resolving an encounter because you do not always resolve an encounter by dealing exactly 100% of the target's HP in damage.

I agree. It's pretty good though if you followup with a second fireball. The only survivors are those which save twice.


For instance, if your party includes that Barbarian Ubercharger, there's not any difference between an enemy that goes into his turn with 50 HP and one that goes in with 25 HP. They both get redmisted in one charge.
Well, as long as it's not up, over rough ground, there is no one in the way, etc...

I would happily turn that argument right around and say that rolling cloud does in fact dominate fireball.
Except that wizard is still bombing you with unanswered fireballs.

How many ways are there to get arbitrary off-list spells that do not also allow you to get Trapsmith spells?
A cooperating party without a trapsmith comes to mind.

More generally, not including trapsmith was the preference.


But do you not see how that is qualitatively different from venomfire + polymorph, right? venomfire, on its own, does nothing for most characters, as they have no natural weapons that inflict poison. With just polymorph, picking a form with poisonous natural weapons is not particularly powerful. Combining them increases your damage output more than either does individually, whether you want to call that combination additive or multiplicative.

I agree that Venomfire + Polymorph has a stronger combo effect than Greater Mighty Wallop + Wraithstrike but perhaps you can see how "additive" and "multiplicative" are not synonyms for me---they have precise and distinct meanings.


It's good to have a lot of things, but resources are scarce. Selectivity, the daze rider, and a better damage type are all relevant more often than Long range.

If Wings of Flurry was a 3rd level spell, I'm sure we would be consider it.


At 6th level, you are neither going to be able to Maximize shivering touch, nor use it at a range greater than Touch. This means there are a great many monsters where it is not the ideal solution. The Belker, for instance, has 21 DEX (meaning you cannot take it out with a single shivering touch), but only a +2 Will save. Having something that can target that save is useful.

Huh, I've never actually encountered a Belker in play. Anyways, we already have Will save targeting effects (Heartache, Vision of Punishment).


I never understand why these sorts of arguments are relevant. It's entirely possible that lots of things use the same mechanism. Is there some place where Bladesong is explicitly clarified to work the way you want? If not, them both working the unfavorable way is an equally consistent interpretation.

Yes, and "everything in melee is dazed" is a fine state of affairs, even if you don't deal the most possible damage/round.


I don't think that case particularly needs to be made. Maybe "slightly better silent image" is good enough for 3rd level. Certainly I would take "slightly better polymorph" at 6th level. I would take major image over fireball any day, and given that fireball is currently on the list, I see that as an entirely sufficient argument for major image to be on it as well.
It's not a convincing argument for me. Silent Image seems fine for most practical purposes---I'd rather spend top-10 slots on entirely new effects.


As for Fireball, I think it's a decent blasting spell - not a standout, in terms of performance, but not bad either.
I agree with this except that the range seems like a standout. There aren't many spells at this level that go to long range. In most circumstances that doesn't matter, but "outranged" is not a fun condition for a party to be in.

[Chronos]

Range is something that Fireball has going for it, but it's not the only thing with that kind of range. You could, for instance, summon a fast-moving monster and have it fly over there to do something. And that's if extreme range even comes up at all, which, in most play, is very seldom (it's called Dungeons and Dragons, after all, and when was the last time you saw a dungeon that you could fit a 400' straight line into?). And absolutely any situation where you could use the full range of a Long-range spell is a situation where the terrain isn't imposing any range limit at all, which means that you could also make full use of something with a range measured in miles (and there are some of those).

[Anthrowhale]

Trying to resolve some uncertainties:


Fireball is clearly controversial. I've left it on the list because there is no ready alternative to deal with adversaries at long range. Missing that capability means intelligent adversaries can exploit a range weakness.
Major Image. I think there is consensus that this is incremental over Silent Image. I'm not attracted to incremental for a top-10 list.
Close-range multi-target action removal effects (Shadow Binding, Vertigo, Stinking Cloud, Great Thunderclap). If there is one target we already have several spells generating superior status effects and we can already generate multi-target entangle or grapple. If there are many targets, Fireball may generate the 'dying/dead' condition which is superior.
Girallon's blessing is looking relatively extraneous at the moment. We can already generate a solid zone of destruction/control at melee range, so that suggests alternatives may be of use. Removed.
Dispel Magic is somewhat controversial. It's not easy to use at ECL6 and is irrelevant at ECL20. Particularly given Arcane Turmoil at L2, this is looking like a skip at the moment. Removed.
Battlemagic Perception seems great at high level since it's a _free_ action counterspell. Added to the ECL20 list.
Magic Circle and Disobedience are of interest because they both deal with ongoing control Charms & Compulsions, which are devastating. Disobedience lasts longer while Magic Circle enables Planar Binding later. Protection from Evil has the same effect, but the effect is short duration. Both of these are obsolete by Mindblank which is more comprehensive. Nevertheless, maybe on the ECL6 list? Looking through, Magic Circle is commonly available from the domains of a deity since a version is available on every alignment domain list. Given that, added Disobedience at level 6.
Anticipate Teleportation seems fantastic at ECL20 since it's an SR:No, Save:No way to get a jump on adversaries. The downside here is friendly fire w.r.t. tactical teleportation. I'm not sure how to handle the tradeoff, but it seems pretty essential at high levels when adversaries often have greater teleport at will. And, it combos with Maze, apparently.
Walls. Wall of Ectoplasm has 12 hit points at caster level 6 which seems rather mediocre in terms of effectively containing or stopping anything. Earthen Shield has much more (100 hp), but it's only 5' tall giving cover, not total cover if medium creatures are standing. Overall, I'm thinking "probably not".
Explosive Runes. This makes downtime potentially combat applicable and enables traps where you lay them out, stand back, and fail a dispel magic. The trap effect is potentially highly cumulative, but this seems rather difficult to get off. It also has a downside: the enemy can fail to dispel while you are laying out the traps. Overall... probably a pass?
Shrink Item. A solid utility spell at low levels which can leverage limited off time. At higher levels, there tend be much more options for dealing with loot, etc... Added to ECL6 list.


Comments/thoughts on the many changes above?


Range is something that Fireball has going for it, but it's not the only thing with that kind of range. You could, for instance, summon a fast-moving monster and have it fly over there to do something.
But, we don't have that in our top-10 list.


And that's if extreme range even comes up at all, which, in most play, is very seldom (it's called Dungeons and Dragons, after all, and when was the last time you saw a dungeon that you could fit a 400' straight line into?).

My experience here is that overland movement is fairly common until teleport is in play. You might be able to convince all party members to go Hengeyokai[Sparrow] to avoid this situation, but that's probably a bigger stretch than getting all party members to worship the same deity.

Whether or not an individual adventure has ambushes in overland movement by intelligent spellcasting adversaries is of course more specialized.


And absolutely any situation where you could use the full range of a Long-range spell is a situation where the terrain isn't imposing any range limit at all, which means that you could also make full use of something with a range measured in miles (and there are some of those).
Suggestions?

[ciopo]

On anticipate teleportation for ecl20, food for thoughts:

I'm more likely to have prepared a greater anticipate teleportation at ecl20, if that is an effect I care to have at all.

What use case is there for the baseline anticipate teleport?

Easier/cheaper to metamagic with rods
If we're not a wizard, the relative worth of the slot level, is it easier to spare a 6th levelfor thegreater, or a 3rd level for the baseline.

Persinally,if I'm lookjng at it for higher ecl, I'm unlikely to ever use the baseline. As a wizard I would have it easy and so I might, but as a sorcerer it would kind of be "dead weight" until it becomes relevant, but when it becomes relevant you will have access to the greater one anyway

[Anthrowhale]

I'm more likely to have prepared a greater anticipate teleportation at ecl20, if that is an effect I care to have at all.

I'm a bit skeptical about greater anticipate teleportation. It's definitely better, but throwing in type information (on top of size) is marginal and the important thing about the delay is that there is a delay, not that it's 1 round or 3 rounds long.

Overall, it feels like a modest improvement in capabilities for a significant increase in spell level, so I'm skeptical it will make the top-10 for level 6. Let's reconsider then.

[Quertus]

Where does it say that dragons choose their spells randomly?

D&D. Now, if it’s not in 3e, they might have forgotten to mention this in 3e, or they might have explicitly intended to change it in 3e, but that’s part of the lore of D&D Dragons.


So the dragon is rare in a way that does not matter and common in a way that does. I am glad we have been able to bring this discussion to a productive close.

It’s a way that matters, as I have never encountered a Dragon who demonstrated those abilities at an actual table. So, rare.


It completely no-sells targeted spells in the event that you are able to have a round/level 4th level spell up

Um… it sounds like you’re talking about Improved Invisibility. I’m talking about (the generally 2nd level Spell) Invisibility. That’s why I said “summons” instead of Fireball.


It turns ranged attacks into protracted math games in the event that you are able to consistently engage enemies in open spaces with wide vertical movement.

Invisibility does that by itself, even in rooms and hallways, btw; Flight and open areas simply exacerbate this.


And it does nothing to actually remove your enemies from the fight.

Who said there was a fight? Part of the point of this combo is its extreme out-of-combat Utility, for information gathering, voyeurism, and so much more. Which is why these spells are clearly better than something with exclusively combat applications.


Look at the other spells on the list. Does it take anything extra to make glibness good? animate dead? If you need to pick up a bunch of extra stuff to make your spell do what you want, it is probably not very good as a spell, which is where I think this list should be focused.

That’s a good point, and if this were actually a list of the best spells, I’d join this discussion. Unfortunately, the OP either failed their word craft roll, or cast Bamboozle. AFAICT, this list - or, rather, the relevant part for these purposes - should be thought of as, “if you a pure Determinator had Animate Dead, whereas someone else in the party had the spell shard (or whatever) Fireball combo, would the one with Animate Dead feel outperformed?”. Repeat that comparison for any given set of two spell combos. Imagine you built one PC for the whiniest player imaginable, whereas the biggest braggart blowhard imaginable is playing the other PC. Can you stand by your choice to give the whiner the spell, even in that scenario? That’s the criteria for this top 10 list, I think.

(For reference, a party that is facing the flying Fireball Wizard without such range themselves is likely to feel outmatched. Not that “facing off against it” should be the standard by which such things are usually measured.)


Dealing 70% of the target's HP does not put you 70% of the way to resolving an encounter because you do not always resolve an encounter by dealing exactly 100% of the target's HP in damage. For instance, if your party includes that Barbarian Ubercharger, there's not any difference between an enemy that goes into his turn with 50 HP and one that goes in with 25 HP. They both get redmisted in one charge.

Quibble: it might put you 100% through the encounter, if that’s enough to get the opponents to flee / surrender. Not everyone and everything fights to the death, after all.

Also, I continue to point out that Fireball is a great way to give your Übercharger a path to hit their intended target.


I don't think that case particularly needs to be made. Maybe "slightly better silent image" is good enough for 3rd level. Certainly I would take "slightly better polymorph" at 6th level. I would take major image over fireball any day, and given that fireball is currently on the list, I see that as an entirely sufficient argument for major image to be on it as well.

That’s a really good point. Not that I necessarily would put any of these spells into my own top 10 list, but so what if there’s a similar spell? Either X > Y, or it isn’t.

I would argue (once we get there) that Animate Dead is one of the best 4th level spells, regardless of the fact that it’s also a 3rd level Spell, and the 4th level one got no upgrades whatsoever.


Well, as long as it's not up, over rough ground, there is no one in the way, etc...

I agree with this except that the range seems like a standout. There aren't many spells at this level that go to long range. In most circumstances that doesn't matter, but "outranged" is not a fun condition for a party to be in.

I’ll continue to point out that Fireball clears the path for the Übercharger.

That aside… how many Fireball spells do you picture this Wizard having memorized? On a Sorcerer, sure, but a Wizard? Are we asking what spells are most useful on Schroeder’s Wizard, or on a real one? Because, as much as I’m arguing for its Utility in clearing fodder, I’m not seeing “I happened to memorize a half dozen copies of Fireball the day I happened to encounter the party with no flight and no long-range response” flying at my table, or (hopefully) at many others, either.

[Anthrowhale]

...
Ftr, Desecrate was specifically pointed out as making a big difference to Animate Dead (and that is correct). Also, you really need to support Glibness at high levels---a +30 bonus just puts you even with a Balor's +30 sense motive.



Can you stand by your choice to give the whiner the spell, even in that scenario? That’s the criteria for this top 10 list, I think.

...That’s a really good point. Not that I necessarily would put any of these spells into my own top 10 list, but so what if there’s a similar spell? Either X > Y, or it isn’t.

I'm not really following this. If the top spell was X_1, and there were 9 near identical spells X_2,X_3,...X_10 with different names, would your list just be X_1,...,X_10? That seems boring to me personally, and likely not a good representation of the game which stresses the party in multiple different ways each of which may have a different contextually-best spell response. Given that, taking into account other spells chosen seems like quite a good idea, and this of course creates a more interesting top-10 list.



That aside… how many Fireball spells do you picture this Wizard having memorized? On a Sorcerer, sure, but a Wizard? Are we asking what spells are most useful on Schroeder’s Wizard, or on a real one? Because, as much as I’m arguing for its Utility in clearing fodder, I’m not seeing “I happened to memorize a half dozen copies of Fireball the day I happened to encounter the party with no flight and no long-range response” flying at my table, or (hopefully) at many others, either.
Feel free to substitute Sorcerer for Wizard in the argument (Alter Self to fly up high and then unleash Fireball), whichever seems more plausible. The overarching point is that you would definitely like the ability to create long range effects.

[Fero]

Random thought, Finger Darts, Animate Dead and others shift your alignment to evil. RaW, this relegated your immortal soul to torture and damnation. That hardly seems best . . . :p

[Quertus]

Random thoufmght, Finger Darts, Animate Dead and others shift your alignment to evil. RaW, this relegated your immortal soul to torture and damnation. That hardly seems best . . . :p

That's what makes it best - no more alignment arguments, everyone is evil. Also, more power to the lower planes (I'm batting for Lawful Evil). Wins all around.


Ftr, Desecrate was specifically pointed out as making a big difference to Animate Dead (and that is correct). Also, you really need to support Glibness at high levels---a +30 bonus just puts you even with a Balor's +30 sense motive.

Eh? Yes, Desecrate, Corpse Crafter, etc - there's lots of buffs you can throw into Animate Dead. And things to make casting the spell free (for massive armies of the undead, even without wealth shenanigans (like having the undead make you money)). But what's this about Glibness? If you're replying to something I said (that you cut out), I'm not getting the context. You're saying I should be arguing for Glibness for the ECL 20 slot, because Balor? I'm not sure how that follows from anything I've said.


I'm not really following this. If the top spell was X_1, and there were 9 near identical spells X_2,X_3,...X_10 with different names, would your list just be X_1,...,X_10? That seems boring to me personally, and likely not a good representation of the game which stresses the party in multiple different ways each of which may have a different contextually-best spell response. Given that, taking into account other spells chosen seems like quite a good idea, and this of course creates a more interesting top-10 list.

Yes, that is a logical conclusion to make from what I said. If (like in 2e) Fireball was the undisputed best 3rd level (Wizard) spell evar, then the hypothetical 3rd level Lightning Ball, Cold Ball, Sonic Ball, Acid Ball, Subdual Ball, Desiccation Ball, Tickle Ball, Bludgeon Ball, Stab Ball, Cuddle Ball, etc, would naturally have similarly high marks.

Which is yet another reason why this list doesn't seem to actually be intended to measure / determine / list the best spells. While I think I see what you're going for, that lack of clarity of statement of purpose is driving a lot of the disagreements in this thread.


Feel free to substitute Sorcerer for Wizard in the argument (Alter Self to fly up high and then unleash Fireball), whichever seems more plausible. The overarching point is that you would definitely like the ability to create long range effects.

Maybe?

I mean, one would like a lot of things, but is spending 1-2 Fireballs, plus some build resources, to kill foes at range, really better than using Invisibility to conceal your Ubercharger while the rest of the party goads the distant monsters into closing distance (perhaps by running away)? Is retaliating against someone who clearly thinks in terms of flying and dropping Fireballs on your forehead with Fireballs of your own really likely to be something they've never even considered (and protected against with Fire Resistance / Immunity, Minor Globe of Invulnerability, etc), and a better play than using Illusions to appear to have been killed, so that they fly down to loot the bodies, or at least fly away and leave you alone?

There's a lot of variables to consider in determining the actual optimal solution to a set of scenarios, to determine what spells enable those solutions, to determine what spells are best.

That said, the "dead" condition is one of the best conditions one can apply to their opponents, and blasting is so out of style in 3e, I'd never even considered the efficacy of having two casters throw Fireball to end a level-appropriate threat in a single round, at long range, likely before the opponent(s) can do anything to the party. That's very much a practice that exemplifies the saying, "the best defense is a good offense".

Oh, but to muddy the waters further, while I'm thinking about it, and we're on the topic of Fireball, Fireball does have the added... effect... of allowing you to "accidentally" kill off annoying NPCs by "accidentally" including them in the AoE. Or trigger (heh) your Berserker by damaging them. Plus other, less useful, Friendly Fire effects. And it lets you hit Invisible foes (which multi-target spells do not do). Fireball has a lot of pros and cons compared to - is a very different tool than - many of the other spells that have been listed, and I don't think that has been given proper consideration.

Also, running gag (albeit one I 100% believe in) that Fireball is great for clearing a path, in a way that things like Entangle simply aren't.

[Anthrowhale]

Random thoufmght, Finger Darts, Animate Dead and others shift your alignment to evil. RaW, this relegated your immortal soul to torture and damnation. That hardly seems best . . . :p
Finger Darts isn't on the list, but Animate Dead and Heartache are. The consequences of [evil] magic probably vary quite a bit by campaign.



But what's this about Glibness?

I was replying to something RandomPeasant said---these spells also need some work to shine.



Which is yet another reason why this list doesn't seem to actually be intended to measure / determine / list the best spells. While I think I see what you're going for, that lack of clarity of statement of purpose is driving a lot of the disagreements in this thread.

The way spells work, having lots of clones of spells is pretty much useless, since you could just cast the original spell twice instead.

So, instead we ask for the top 1 spell, and then given the top 1 spell what is the second spell which most complements it assuming we have access to the top 1? And then what is the third spell which most complements given the top 2? etc... This gives a better set of spells since they will definitely not have duplicative effects.



I mean, one would like a lot of things, but is spending 1-2 Fireballs, plus some build resources, to kill foes at range, really better than using Invisibility to conceal your Ubercharger while the rest of the party goads the distant monsters into closing distance (perhaps by running away)? Is retaliating against someone who clearly thinks in terms of flying and dropping Fireballs on your forehead with Fireballs of your own really likely to be something they've never even considered (and protected against with Fire Resistance / Immunity, Minor Globe of Invulnerability, etc), and a better play than using Illusions to appear to have been killed, so that they fly down to loot the bodies, or at least fly away and leave you alone?

There are good ideas here. All else equal, I'd prefer to have several options. Illusions are already covered by Silent Image so Fireball seems like the real option we can add here.



Fireball has a lot of pros and cons compared to - is a very different tool than - many of the other spells that have been listed, and I don't think that has been given proper consideration.

Also handy for swarms.

But yes, taking into account the diversity a tool creates in a set of tools seems like a good idea.


Also, running gag (albeit one I 100% believe in) that Fireball is great for clearing a path, in a way that things like Entangle simply aren't.
Yeah, I could see that.

[ciopo]

I'm a bit skeptical about greater anticipate teleportation. It's definitely better, but throwing in type information (on top of size) is marginal and the important thing about the delay is that there is a delay, not that it's 1 round or 3 rounds long.

Overall, it feels like a modest improvement in capabilities for a significant increase in spell level, so I'm skeptical it will make the top-10 for level 6. Let's reconsider then.

Oh, I don't think either make the top 10 list, the effect is useful, but niche. I was mostly remarking that at ecl20, if I want that kind of effect might as well use the greater version

Type is signifant extra information, especially if it comes with subtypes. "A human with 2 orcs" are one thing, "5 chaotic evil outsiders" are another.
The duration is relevant too, but it's niche just the same, it matters mostly if it's enemy reinforcements coming into an existing fight.

[Anthrowhale]

Oh, I don't think either make the top 10 list, the effect is useful, but niche.
Interesting.

I agree it's niche, but it seems like a 3rd level spell I'd very often use at ECL20 as a preventive measure. Sort of like Mindblank, but for teleportation effects.

[Chronos]

I'm not so sure that Fireball would clear a path for an übercharger. Sure, you can move through a corpse's space, but the corpses still exist. And I'm thinking that if there are so many mooks that we're talking about "clearing a path", then that many corpses would probably constitute difficult terrain.

[sleepyphoenixx]

That aside… how many Fireball spells do you picture this Wizard having memorized? On a Sorcerer, sure, but a Wizard? Are we asking what spells are most useful on Schroeder’s Wizard, or on a real one? Because, as much as I’m arguing for its Utility in clearing fodder, I’m not seeing “I happened to memorize a half dozen copies of Fireball the day I happened to encounter the party with no flight and no long-range response” flying at my table, or (hopefully) at many others, either.
Runestaves (MIC) are pretty much ideal for blasting spells for this reason. And a runestaff with 2-3 2nd-3rd level spells is pretty cheap.
Goggles of the Golden Sun (also MIC) are even cheaper and also work for divine casters. The save sucks though and they arguably don't benefit from any boosts because of wording.

There's also plenty of other options for a wizard to convert spells on the fly - the rest of the Raiment of the Four set and a couple other items, Signature Spell, Uncanny Forethought, various prestige abilities like Dweomerkeeper's Mantle of Spells and so on.

And for a wizard who's actually build for blasting (which is really the only kind of wizard who should regularly prepare Fireball) the answer may just be "as many as i had 3rd level slots".


I'm not so sure that Fireball would clear a path for an übercharger. Sure, you can move through a corpse's space, but the corpses still exist. And I'm thinking that if there are so many mooks that we're talking about "clearing a path", then that many corpses would probably constitute difficult terrain.

Not normally unless the enemies are large, though i suppose a DM could also apply the rule to multiple smaller creatures sharing a space.
It's not RAW for medium or smaller creatures to do that though.


Opponent

You can’t move through a square occupied by an opponent, unless the opponent is helpless. You can move through a square occupied by a helpless opponent without penalty. (Some creatures, particularly very large ones, may present an obstacle even when helpless. In such cases, each square you move through counts as 2 squares.)

It's a pretty weak argument anyway since most uberchargers get their own ways to charge despite obstacles ASAP, so it's very unlikely to actually come up in play.
Chances are he doesn't need you to clear him a path, you're just stealing his kills.

[Quertus]

There are good ideas here. All else equal, I'd prefer to have several options.

True, but… a) if a Wizard went for “options”, but cast Fireball in the first encounter of the day, then that spell is not available as an option for later encounters, OR b) it’s a Sorcerer, they only have 1 option to begin with.

So, shall I take it that this is a Shrodenger’s Wizard list, rather than one designed to take into account the actualities of adventure at real tables? If not, 3e really favors the build dedicated to a single trick (Tainted Sorcerer throwing Reserves of Strength + Spell Shard + etc Fireball), making it difficult to have this discussion without discussing the floor and ceiling of a spell’s efficacy.

Obviously, “no combos, no supporting classes items or feats, Spell on its own merits” is the easiest to measure, but also the least interesting. So here’s a question: suppose there was some build1 that consumes virtually all your build resources, but, when that build casts spell X, it is the undisputed best Spell in the game at that level; otherwise, it doesn’t make the lists. Should that Spell be considered one of the top 10 spells? Why / why not?

Regardless, the fact that, at ECL 6, 2 casters with Fireball can end 3 level appropriate encounters per day, at range? At an expected 4-person group handling 4 encounters per day, that’s still 2 members at 100%, and 2 possibly reduced to “just” their full compliments of 1st & 2nd level spells (and full HP and…), to handle the last encounter. That’s not Animate Dead, raising the bar on what it means to start at 100%, but it’s still impressive, and more than I expected out of blasting.

1 over 100% real shadow casting being the likeliest candidate I know

EDIT:
Runestaves (MIC) are pretty much ideal for blasting spells for this reason. And a runestaff with 2-3 2nd-3rd level spells is pretty cheap.

There's also plenty of other options for a wizard to convert spells on the fly - the rest of the Raiment of the Four set and a couple other items, Signature Spell, Uncanny Forethought, various prestige abilities like Dweomerkeeper's Mantle of Spells and so on.

And for a wizard who's actually build for blasting (which is really the only kind of wizard who should regularly prepare Fireball) the answer may just be "as many as i had 3rd level slots".

This answers my question about maintaining the option for versatility, at least until that last bit, where it sounds like you’re saying that Fireball is not a good tool for a versatile Wizard.

Perhaps I’m looking at it backwards, though, and other, more versatile tools are good for the otherwise dedicated blaster?

[sleepyphoenixx]

This answers my question about maintaining the option for versatility, at least until that last bit, where it sounds like you’re saying that Fireball is not a good tool for a versatile Wizard.

Perhaps I’m looking at it backwards, though, and other, more versatile tools are good for the otherwise dedicated blaster?
Let me rephrase that to "a wizard who doesn't have something boosting his damage" instead of "build for it".
The latter makes it sound like you have to spec entirely around blasting to make it worthwhile, and that's definitely not the case.

On the other hand a wizard casting Fireball at an unbuffed Xd6 where X = character level is like the unoptimized sword & board fighter of blaster casters.
Or in other words it's a terrible idea and probably not very fun or effective unless your table is very low-op.
It's pretty much the entire basis of the "blasting spells are bad" meme, because when you need 3-4 fireballs to kill the average equal-CR enemy blasting IS bad.

At most other optimization levels you'll want something to boost your damage if you want it to be worth preparing over other spells.
Thankfully such options are plentiful and often cheap, so you don't actually need to specialize into blasting to be good at blasting, you just need to invest SOMETHING for Fireball to pull its weight in comparison to spells like Stinking Cloud, Deep Slumber or Haste.

[Fero]

Deep Slumber and the rest also require some level of optimization in the form of boosting DCs. An int 15 wizard is probably not going to slumber many enemies with DC 15 saves.

I guess the implicit assumption is that wizards will always highly optimize Int (and sorcerors cha, etc.). However, such optimization comes at the cost of reducing other stats and gp for items for fairly little benefit, other than boosting spell DCs.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Deep Slumber and the rest also require some level of optimization in the form of boosting DCs. An int 15 wizard is probably not going to slumber many enemies with DC 15 saves.

I guess the implicit assumption is that wizards will always highly optimize Int (and sorcerors cha, etc.). However, such optimization comes at the cost of reducing other stats and gp for items for fairly little benefit, other than boosting spell DCs.
The implicit assumption that every wizard will optimize Int exists because it'd be silly not to. Int makes your spells stronger and gives you more of them after all, so why wouldn't you?
You also need at least Int 19 to cast 9th level spells. You need at least Int 28 to get a bonus 9th level spell or Int 36 for two.

And at CR 5 most enemies only have will saves in the 2-6 range usually, depending on type. So it's not quite that terrible, though more is obviously better.

[Anthrowhale]

So, shall I take it that this is a Shrodenger’s Wizard list, rather than one designed to take into account the actualities of adventure at real tables?

It could be, via Uncanny Forethought as sleepyphoenixx points out. It might a sorcerer who chose fireball. It could be a fire domain wizard which is required to prepare a fireball and gets +1 caster level with fireball. As long as it's a strategy that is effective, it's hard to discredit an adversary for taking it.


Should that Spell be considered one of the top 10 spells? Why / why not?

At ECL6, definitely not (as it's not operational). At ECL20, I would consider it, but I'm not sure I would accept it due to the heavy tax. Is it worth the implied devaluation of all the other spells? Or would I prefer to drop this one and implicitly escalate the value of everything else?

[Fero]

The implicit assumption that every wizard will optimize Int exists because it'd be silly not to. Int makes your spells stronger and gives you more of them after all, so why wouldn't you?
You also need at least Int 19 to cast 9th level spells. You need at least Int 28 to get a bonus 9th level spell or Int 36 for two.

And at CR 5 most enemies only have will saves in the 2-6 range usually, depending on type. So it's not quite that terrible, though more is obviously better.

I agree that int is good but I think people go too far with Int optimization (at the cost of other stats and gear) without really thinking about what they want to get from the stat. If you want high DCs, int is great. However, plenty of spells don't care about DCs including buffs, a lot of battlefield control, and many forms of minionomamcy. Moreover, DC based strategies tend to be a losing proposition in most high power games without some significant optimization because monster HD scale quickly.

Other than DC based spells, I would argue that Int does less for the wizard than many people think. Bonus spells scale in such a way that you don't get the full effect of them until higher levels, at which point you don't really need them. The limit on the level you cast is also a relatively minor hurdle as you can easily get to 19 with middling stats and a small portion of your WBL.

None of this is to say that save based spells are bad (they are good). Rather, I am just saying that they too have a not insignificant opportunity cost.

[Anthrowhale]

Random thought, Finger Darts, Animate Dead and others shift your alignment to evil. RaW, this relegated your immortal soul to torture and damnation. That hardly seems best . . . :p

Another thought about this one is that the number '10' is somewhat beyond the known spells available of most spontaneous casters, and so it's easy enough to cut the evil spells if that is desirable in a particular campaign.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I agree that int is good but I think people go too far with Int optimization (at the cost of other stats and gear) without really thinking about what they want to get from the stat.

You're going to have to expand on that. At the cost of what other stat? What other gear? Because wizards don't exactly get a lot of mileage out of the others compared to Int.
So what are you buying instead and how does it do more for your wizard than increasing Int?


Bonus spells scale in such a way that you don't get the full effect of them until higher levels
You get your first 1st level bonus spell at 12 and every 8 points of Int after that, +2 points per spell level above 1st.
So a 1st level wizard with 20 Int starts with three first level spells instead of two and always has at least one more spell slot per level of every level he can cast than one who starts with 15, throughout his entire career.

Name a different stat that does more for you. I'll wait.

[Fero]

You're going to have to expand on that. At the cost of what other stat? What other gear? Because wizards don't exactly get a lot of mileage out of the others compared to Int.
So what are you buying instead and how does it do more for your wizard than increasing Int?


You get your first 1st level bonus spell at 12 and every 8 points of Int after that, +2 points per spell level above 1st.
So a 1st level wizard with 20 Int starts with three first level spells instead of two and always has at least one more spell slot per level of every level he can cast than one who starts with 15, throughout his entire career.

Name a different stat that does more for you. I'll wait.

I agree that Int is the best stat for Wizards (at least for most builds). However, optimizing int has costs elsewhere. For example, and to return to your example, a Wizard with 20 Int gets two bonus first level spells. This typically involves picking a race such as gray elf with +2 Int at the cost of another race (say Human's bonus feat). If the game is point buy, getting the base 18 takes 16 points. You could instead reduce to base 14 to get 10 points back, enough to bring Con and Dex from 8 to 12 and Wis to 10 (so you don't have to rp an unwise character). In this example, the extra spell slot costs: +2 HP/level (huge for squishy wizards),+2 Fort, +2 init, +2 AC, +2 ranged attacks, +2 Ref, +1 Will, and a feat. Obviously, if you want to extra spell DCs, this may be a worthwhile trade. However, if you don't care about DCs it seems, to me at least, a steep price for an extra spell slot.

For gear, most wizards will want a +6 item by 20. However, when they purchase that gear is important. I find that many players, including my younger self, rush to increase Int as soon as possible, often dedicating a very large portion of WBL to the task and without considering other valuables such as MM rods, spells, and generically useful wondrous items.

I am less sure if wishes/tomes are worthwhile for most wizards, even by 20. 137k is a steep price. I can see DC based casters paying it. However, I don't think most other wizards will get enough mileage from the bonus slots to make it worthwhile. Maybe if you are sitting at 31 and really want the extra 7, 8, and 9.

[Chronos]

If we're talking about a spell that gains a lot from specifically optimizing your build around it, then Locate City belongs on this list. But I don't think that's the right standard. Nor do I think it's appropriate to compare optimizing for a specific spell to a fighter optimizing his sword use. A fighter gets maybe three things to optimize for: A sword, a bow, and grappling. And of those, the sword will most often be the best option, so of course the fighter is going to spend most of his build resources on optimizing his swording. A wizard, though, can have dozens or hundreds of different spells (if you're counting the fact that a wizard can prepare different spells for different situations, which ability is at the heart of being a wizard). Most wizard optimization, therefore, will be for things that improve, not individual spells, but very broad categories of spells, like "increase Int to improve save DCs and increase number of spells".

[RandomPeasant]

I swapped Greater Magic Weapon for Magic Vestment since via defending GMW handles AC and via domains it's often possible to get Magic Vestment anyways.

What is the standard we are using to define what goes on this list. If we are not counting things you get "via domains", why is anyspell (a thing that appears on exactly the Spell domain list) on the list. What is going on here.


We already have (potentially multiple) no-save daze melee (Bladesong)

Wait your theory of bladesong is that the thing that gets the save is the sword? You think the spell is supposed to be a version of irresistible dance you can repeat for credit on top of your normal attack routine?


(but not to many, since then Fireball becomes efficient)

No it doesn't. The HP range where fireball takes actions off of non-chaff enemies is very small.


I don't believe this. How can a single-classed Barbarian deal more damage to creatures 600' up?

How can the blaster deal damage in the 10th combat round of the day?


The kind of scenario I'm thinking about is: a human wizard detects the party engaged in overland travel across a plain, casts Alter Self[Avariel], flies 600' above them, and then starts Fireballing. What does the party do?

Not travel across featureless plains? Spread out more than 40ft apart on the featureless plane? Have better perception and stealth than the class that gets exactly none of Spot, Listen, Hide, and Move Silently?


Nothing here is exotic---it's just using common capabilities intelligently to exploit a party weakness.

Could you remind me which book Avariels are from?


Which 'bunch' do you have in mind? Reserves of Strength seems like a pretty good feat anyways. The Empowered Spellshard is expensive for the level, but over the long run there is lots of gold.

That would be the "bunch". For reference, the thing you do to make major image good is "prepare major image" and then "cast major image". And, no, I do not believe there is enough gold to justify buying items for specific 3rd level spells of niche utility at 6k a pop.


I agree. It's pretty good though if you followup with a second fireball. The only survivors are those which save twice.

Sure, and then you've spent two spell slots to eliminate some enemies in a way that did nothing to reduce their effectiveness until the third round of combat. This is not a good deal for the PC side of the equation, which is expected to survive attrition across several different combats.


Well, as long as it's not up, over rough ground, there is no one in the way, etc...

Sure, and fireball is good as long as enemies clump up and don't make Reflex saves and don't have Evasion and don't have resistances or immunities and aren't mixed in with your party members and so on. Things have counters. We haven't been pressing fireball's particularly hard in its evaluation.


A cooperating party without a trapsmith comes to mind.

But with a Wizard, a Cleric, a Druid, and a Bard?


More generally, not including trapsmith was the preference.

I think asking about individual preferences outside of a well-defined framework often produces misleading results. I don't have a single preference for "should we count the Trapsmith". I think it depends on what the list is trying to do. I suspect most other people think that as well, and if you said "this is a list for Artificers" or "this is a list for Sorcerers" people would shift their answers (even if they also have preferences on the "list for Artificers" v "list for Sorcerers" question).


I agree that Venomfire + Polymorph has a stronger combo effect than Greater Mighty Wallop + Wraithstrike but perhaps you can see how "additive" and "multiplicative" are not synonyms for me---they have precise and distinct meanings.

Can you perhaps see that "combo" has a precise meaning that is more specific than "two things you can use at the same time"?


Blasting as a strategy is as good as you need it to be, in that it can be optimized to the same level martial damage dealers are.

This is an argument against blasting. Blasting costs spell slots every time you use it. The martial damage dealers get to use their attack actions every round forever. For blasting to be worth it, it has to scale much faster than martial damage does and it's hard for me to see that being true unless you are facing fairly large groups of enemies, which is both a situation that I think is not often terribly challenging and one where spells of more general applicability may perform as well or better.


At moderate optimization, the martial character is optimized enough to typically kill at least one opponent per turn. To do this, they have chosen specific races and/or templates and specific classes across several books.

Or just, like, Shock Trooper + any way to get pounce. Martial optimization is actually quite straightforward and does not require nearly the effort people have been giving fireball in this thread. A 6th level Barbarian does not need the Dragonlance Campaign Setting to kill an Annis. They get their Lion Totem and their Shock Trooper and now when they charge they get two attacks that each deal a minimum of 23 damage against a thing with 45 HP. And that's not even the best martial character you can make on Core + Complete Warrior + Complete Champion!


Fireball is clearly controversial. I've left it on the list because there is no ready alternative to deal with adversaries at long range. Missing that capability means intelligent adversaries can exploit a range weakness.

I would like to reiterate that this is a bad standard. There is nothing but major image that provides a defense against the guy who smells everything he encounters for a prospective illusionist, is that sufficient to pick it up as an improvement over silent image? There is no class (except perhaps the StP Erudite) that functions in a way where "oh, new capability" is a sufficient justification to pick up an option. It has to be better than all the other things you could learn as a Sorcerer or Favored Soul, or better than all the other things you could prepare as a Wizard or Cleric.

Considered from this perspective, the issue is that for Long range to be worthwhile, all of the following things need to be true:

1) you are operating in an environment where people can see you at Long range
2) you are facing someone capable of engaging you at Long range
3) they have enough firepower at Long range to kill you
4) you have enough firepower in fireballs to stop them
5) they have enough mobility that you cannot close to use any shorter-range options
6) they have enough perception that they can engage you before you can use shorter-range options
7) you have enough perception that you can engage them at Long range before they have been able to kill you

The big stickler here is 4, because you do not wake up every day and get told "today you will need to fight a guy at Long range". So you have to prepare enough fireballs to solve your Long-range problems every day, even knowing that they will be at best mediocre against all the shorter-range problems that are vastly more common. And that's if you're lucky enough to be a prepared caster. If you're a Sorcerer, you're looking at the unappetizing prospect of having your one 3rd level spell be fireball, meaning that you have to use all your 3rd level spell slots for fireballs every day. I suppose it's worth bearing in mind the utility of fireball if you happen to be specifically a Warmage, but they don't choose enough spells to make any real use of a list like this.


If there are many targets, Fireball may generate the 'dying/dead' condition which is superior.

Or it may generate the "dies in the same number of attacks from the Druid's animal companion" condition which is literally worthless.


As a wizard I would have it easy and so I might, but as a sorcerer it would kind of be "dead weight" until it becomes relevant, but when it becomes relevant you will have access to the greater one anyway

I think the Sorcerer is precisely where it's relevant. As a Sorcerer, you get three 6th level spells ever. Presumably you are going to want one of those to be planar binding and another one to be an offensive spell of some description, so every other 6th level spell to be printed is competing for that last slot. I think, viewed in that context, getting a worse version of a 6th level spell as a 3rd level spell is quite compelling, particularly because you can pick it up at 9th level and have it for enemy Wizards or teleporting demons.


I would argue (once we get there) that Animate Dead is one of the best 4th level spells, regardless of the fact that it’s also a 3rd level Spell, and the 4th level one got no upgrades whatsoever.

Honestly you can fairly say the 4th level one is worse, since the classes that get it will generally have a much harder time getting desecrate.


Ftr, Desecrate was specifically pointed out as making a big difference to Animate Dead (and that is correct). Also, you really need to support Glibness at high levels---a +30 bonus just puts you even with a Balor's +30 sense motive.

There is a difference between "this makes the spell much better" and "the spell is bad without this". I would happily take animate dead even in an optimized party if desecrate was written out of the game entirely. glibness takes some effort to keep up at high levels but A) "put ranks in your class skill" is laughably less than anything mentioned for fireball and B) it doesn't need that at low levels.


That seems boring to me personally, and likely not a good representation of the game which stresses the party in multiple different ways each of which may have a different contextually-best spell response.

Lots of good advice is boring. "Get an office job and have some fun hobbies" is much less interesting advice than "vanish into the jungles of Borneo in search of lost treasure", but that doesn't make it worse.

As far as "contextually best responses" go, I think that's a fair point, but it's hard for me to take it seriously for evaluating individual spells when we are taking such a strong "view from nowhere" of the process of spell acquisition and preparation. Having fireball (or great thunderclap, or any other spell) costs something. Maybe it's one of your spells known. Maybe it's one of your spells prepared. Maybe it's some amount of gold. Maybe it's the time to have your gen go pick it up for you. Maybe it's more than one of these things. But if we're going to be looking at "best spells in the aggregate context of other spells", "how are we getting these spells" is a key part of that context. The best spells for a Sorcerer simply are not the same as the best spells for a Wizard, let alone a Cleric or a Druid.


The overarching point is that you would definitely like the ability to create long range effects.

I would like a great many things. But the game is one of managing scarce resources, and I can far more easily imagine a situation where I deal less than a dozen points of damage for my 3rd level spell than "what if you were engaged at extreme range by a guy with enough fireballs to kill you and there was no way to break LoS".


Random thought, Finger Darts, Animate Dead and others shift your alignment to evil. RaW, this relegated your immortal soul to torture and damnation. That hardly seems best . . . :p

It relegates your soul to spending forever in the Torture Dimension, but if you're really good at Evil you get to spend your time there on the sadism end of sadism-masochism, so it all works out in the long run if you kick enough ass.


Which is yet another reason why this list doesn't seem to actually be intended to measure / determine / list the best spells.

I agree that's not Anthro's goal, but I don't think it's a bad goal. Maybe if the best spells were, like, "a bunch of damage in a 25ft radius at 400ft range" and "a marginally smaller bunch of damage in a 25ft radius at 400ft range" and "a bunch of damage in a 20ft radius at 400ft range" and "a bunch of damage in a 25ft radius at 395ft range", that list might not be of much use. But in practice they aren't nearly that similar. stinking cloud, great thunderclap, major image, shadow binding, and so on are all practically different, and I think it is reasonable to say "here are the best ones" and leave people to figure out the exact order to pick the best ones in based on the particular circumstances in their particular games (e.g. the relative value of venomfire v haste changes quite dramatically if you swap a character with a bunch of poisonous natural weapons for one with a bunch of minions). There are hundreds of spells of each level, just narrowing things down to the ten best ones is incredibly useful, even if people are not literally going to go down that list in order every time.


That said, the "dead" condition is one of the best conditions one can apply to their opponents

The trouble is that "damaged" is one of the worst conditions you can apply.

[ciopo]

I think the Sorcerer is precisely where it's relevant. As a Sorcerer, you get three 6th level spells ever. Presumably you are going to want one of those to be planar binding and another one to be an offensive spell of some description, so every other 6th level spell to be printed is competing for that last slot. I think, viewed in that context, getting a worse version of a 6th level spell as a 3rd level spell is quite compelling, particularly because you can pick it up at 9th level and have it for enemy Wizards or teleporting demons.

That's the rub, I understand I'm the outliner here, but I've found myself finding 3rd level spell known be more precious than 6th level spell known. I understand my particular campaign realities has no bearing on "best in level" discussions tho.

That is, while for 3rd level there were competing compelling spells, for 6th level my general feeling was "meh" because there was little that did "something new", to paraphrase

[Anthrowhale]

What is the standard we are using to define what goes on this list. If we are not counting things you get "via domains", why is anyspell (a thing that appears on exactly the Spell domain list) on the list. What is going on here.
Nothing I said was meant to preclude domain spells. The fact that Magic Vestment is easily accessed by domain is ancillary to the shift to Greater Magic Weapon.


Wait your theory of bladesong is that the thing that gets the save is the sword?

Yes, that's what is implied by:
Target: Weapon touched
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless, object)


You think the spell is supposed to be a version of irresistible dance you can repeat for credit on top of your normal attack routine?

It's different. The spell is not [mind-affecting] so it applies to virtually everything. However, it's a weaker effect: only lasts for 1 round instead of 1d4+1 and Irresistible Dance also imposes AC-4, Refl-10, AOOs.


How can the blaster deal damage in the 10th combat round of the day?

The game expectation is ~4 encounters/day as per the DMG.


Not travel across featureless plains? Spread out more than 40ft apart on the featureless plane? Have better perception and stealth than the class that gets exactly none of Spot, Listen, Hide, and Move Silently?

The first may be impractical. The second only mitigates while damaging Linked Perception and in general sets the party up to not handle short range encounters well. The third could help avoid things, but need not apply in broad daylight + open terrain.


Could you remind me which book Avariels are from?

Races of Faerun. If you don't like that book, note that flight is not really necessary for long range tactics.


For reference, the thing you do to make major image good is "prepare major image" and then "cast major image".

I prefer Ghost Sounds+Silent Image+Fireball to Ghost Sounds+Silent Image+Major Image at present. That remains true, even without an Empowered Spellshard.


Sure, and then you've spent two spell slots to eliminate some enemies in a way that did nothing to reduce their effectiveness until the third round of combat.

Maybe there are two fireball users who both win initiative and "boom" before the bad guys? Or maybe the combat starts at long range and the bad guys can't do anything before the 3rd round? Or maybe the combat starts at long range and all the other party members are ineffectual.


Sure, and fireball is good as long as enemies clump up and don't make Reflex saves and don't have Evasion and don't have resistances or immunities and aren't mixed in with your party members and so on.

I agree there are limits.


But with a Wizard, a Cleric, a Druid, and a Bard?

Maybe? It seems there are many possibilities.


I think asking about individual preferences outside of a well-defined framework often produces misleading results.

I agree with this generically. What I've noticed though is that there is plenty of class-specific advice and plenty of ways to get off-list spells. So, it seems a class-nonspecific listing of spells is generally useful.


Can you perhaps see that "combo" has a precise meaning that is more specific than "two things you can use at the same time"?

You are beating a strawman very effectively.


A 6th level Barbarian does not need the Dragonlance Campaign Setting to kill an Annis.

And they have no method whatsoever to kill an Annis (or even several) at long range. The barbarian and the fireball tosser seem pretty incomparable to me.


Considered from this perspective, the issue is that for Long range to be worthwhile, all of the following things need to be true:
..
5) they have enough mobility that you cannot close to use any shorter-range options
...

This need not be so, since merely eating fireballs as you close may be enough to cause problems.

In any case, the number of fireballs that a wizard memorizes or a sorcerer has available will, I expect, vary greatly from player to player.


There is a difference between "this makes the spell much better" and "the spell is bad without this".

I agree there are matters of degree in general.


The best spells for a Sorcerer simply are not the same as the best spells for a Wizard, let alone a Cleric or a Druid.

Given Dragonblood Spell-pact, the difference is minor.


I would like a great many things. But the game is one of managing scarce resources, and I can far more easily imagine a situation where I deal less than a dozen points of damage for my 3rd level spell than "what if you were engaged at extreme range by a guy with enough fireballs to kill you and there was no way to break LoS".

Which failure mode is worse?


The trouble is that "damaged" is one of the worst conditions you can apply.
I concur with this.

[RandomPeasant]

I understand my particular campaign realities has no bearing on "best in level" discussions tho.

I don't think that's entirely true. Unless your campaign is doing some specific, degenerate thing, there's not really any anecdotal position that's more or less valid than any other anecdotal position, as long as you're able to acknowledge what about your campaign isn't typical.


Yes, that's what is implied by:
Target: Weapon touched
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless, object)

I think perhaps the web enhancement spell was not fully edited and they did not expect to make it more powerful than an 8th level spell.


It's different. The spell is not [mind-affecting] so it applies to virtually everything. However, it's a weaker effect: only lasts for 1 round instead of 1d4+1 and Irresistible Dance also imposes AC-4, Refl-10, AOOs.

No it lasts for 1 round/level, you just have to keep applying it. Which you get to do, as they don't get to take any actions.


The game expectation is ~4 encounters/day as per the DMG.

And if those encounters average just 2.5 combat rounds, you will have a 10th combat round in that day. What do you plan to do in it?


The second only mitigates while damaging Linked Perception and in general sets the party up to not handle short range encounters well.

If you think handling short range encounters well is a priority, why are you planning to dedicate enough spell slots to get the confirmed kill on an enemy from Long range to fireball.


Races of Faerun. If you don't like that book, note that flight is not really necessary for long range tactics.

I have nothing against the book, but setting-specific material qualifies as "exotic" by any reasonable definition. That said, without flight you've made it a lot harder to keep your distance, because now when you notice the party they are going to be able to run you down eventually. That makes fireball kiting far less effective.


I prefer Ghost Sounds+Silent Image+Fireball to Ghost Sounds+Silent Image+Major Image at present. That remains true, even without an Empowered Spellshard.

But is it better than prestidigitation + nerveskitter + major image? You're imagining using this list in a way that essentially no character ever will. The choices people make depend on the other choices they make, but that dependency flows in both directions.


Maybe there are two fireball users who both win initiative and "boom" before the bad guys? Or maybe the combat starts at long range and the bad guys can't do anything before the 3rd round? Or maybe the combat starts at long range and all the other party members are ineffectual.

I think if you have two casters acting before any of the enemies, you are unlikely to have much trouble winning. Even in the unlikely event that the fight starts at Long range, you only need Long-range firepower to the degree that you face enemies with their own Long-range capabilities (or at least ones that outrange whatever capabilities the party does have) and you don't have the ability to close to some shorter range at which you do have superiority. Just give the Cleric a longbow and you will be fine in 99% of situations, while spending far less resources in every one where both the longbow and fireball are usable.


Maybe? It seems there are many possibilities.

Then isn't worth asking how the various possibilities might influence what things go on the list?


I agree with this generically. What I've noticed though is that there is plenty of class-specific advice and plenty of ways to get off-list spells. So, it seems a class-nonspecific listing of spells is generally useful.

As I've said, I don't think that is a categorically unreasonable goal. But I do not see a framework where that is a reasonable goal and not including Trapsmith spells is correct. Where is the great range of options for off-list spells that A) lets you pick arbitrary spells and B) only lets you pick from full-caster or Bard lists?


You are beating a strawman very effectively.

You have yet to articulate a recognizable limiting principle between the things you are calling "combos" and the "strawman". Is bull's strength + regular magic weapon a "combo"?


And they have no method whatsoever to kill an Annis (or even several) at long range. The barbarian and the fireball tosser seem pretty incomparable to me.

Why would you ever need to kill an Annis at Long range? It doesn't have ranged attacks at all, the only difficult bit is that you might want to time your positioning so that you're sure it doesn't get to attack you, but Medium or even Close-range spells are perfectly adequate for facilitating that.


Given Dragonblood Spell-pact, the difference is minor.

Given dragonblood spell-pact it is almost strictly incorrect to play a Sorcerer, as you have more spells known to swap around as one of the various fixed-list casters.


Which failure mode is worse?

The nature of iterative probability is that even small risks add up very quickly if you repeat them. I would be surprised if there was even one "travel over a featureless plain" adventure per campaign, so you can make very conservative assumptions about how much bad spell choice effects your chance of losing other encounters and still decide to avoid fireball. A 5% chance to lose in 95% of encounters is worse (expect to lose 4.75% of encounters) than even a 100% chance of losing 1% of encounters. This is the same reason we advise people to prepare color spray over magic missile at 1st level, despite the latter's greater utility in the event of a boss fight with an Allip.

[pabelfly]

This is an argument against blasting. Blasting costs spell slots every time you use it. The martial damage dealers get to use their attack actions every round forever. For blasting to be worth it, it has to scale much faster than martial damage does and it's hard for me to see that being true unless you are facing fairly large groups of enemies, which is both a situation that I think is not often terribly challenging and one where spells of more general applicability may perform as well or better.



Or just, like, Shock Trooper + any way to get pounce. Martial optimization is actually quite straightforward and does not require nearly the effort people have been giving fireball in this thread. A 6th level Barbarian does not need the Dragonlance Campaign Setting to kill an Annis. They get their Lion Totem and their Shock Trooper and now when they charge they get two attacks that each deal a minimum of 23 damage against a thing with 45 HP. And that's not even the best martial character you can make on Core + Complete Warrior + Complete Champion!

In any real game, Shock Trooper is a terrible option. You use Shock Trooper to pump your Power Attack and you can kill an enemy with one hit, which is great, but now you're next to all the other enemies with no worthwhile AC to help defend yourself, which is decidedly not. Anyone I've played with that's done a Shock Trooper build has died quickly.

Blasting has an advantage over mundane martials in that they can attack at range, can target multiple enemies, and can target specific elemental weaknesses, depending on the enemy. And if you think that blasting spells should one-shot most enemies even if the martials aren't, you can make that build without too much issue either.

[sleepyphoenixx]

In any real game, Shock Trooper is a terrible option. You use Shock Trooper to pump your Power Attack and you can kill an enemy with one hit, which is great, but now you're next to all the other enemies with no worthwhile AC to help defend yourself, which is decidedly not. Anyone I've played with that's done a Shock Trooper build has died quickly.

It's hardly Shock Troopers fault if people fail to cover the glaring hole in their defenses and then walk their low-AC characters into the enemies full attack range. What did they think would happen?

[Anthrowhale]

I think perhaps the web enhancement spell was not fully edited and they did not expect to make it more powerful than an 8th level spell.

Maybe so. I don't think a single instance is better than Irresistible dance, but since it applies to blades and a character can wield multiple blades a full Chain Ocular Bladesong is pretty overwhelming.


And if those encounters average just 2.5 combat rounds, you will have a 10th combat round in that day. What do you plan to do in it?

At 6th level it's pretty normal to have access to 10 spell slots, yes? So I would expect a character to have options.


If you think handling short range encounters well is a priority, why are you planning to dedicate enough spell slots to get the confirmed kill on an enemy from Long range to fireball.

Close range is addressed by many spells.


I have nothing against the book, but setting-specific material qualifies as "exotic" by any reasonable definition. That said, without flight you've made it a lot harder to keep your distance, because now when you notice the party they are going to be able to run you down eventually. That makes fireball kiting far less effective.

I'll give you 'less' but not 'far less'. Covering 600' in less time than it takes for a fireball wipeout is challenging.


But is it better than prestidigitation + nerveskitter + major image? You're imagining using this list in a way that essentially no character ever will. The choices people make depend on the other choices they make, but that dependency flows in both directions.

I agree but still plan to avoid redundancy. After we finish this exercise, there will be a solid discussion track record anyone can use to construct their own lists according to alternate criteria.


Where is the great range of options for off-list spells that A) lets you pick arbitrary spells and B) only lets you pick from full-caster or Bard lists?

I do not want to revisit this decision at this time.


You have yet to articulate a recognizable limiting principle between the things you are calling "combos" and the "strawman". Is bull's strength + regular magic weapon a "combo"?

This seems a distraction.


Why would you ever need to kill an Annis at Long range? It doesn't have ranged attacks at all, the only difficult bit is that you might want to time your positioning so that you're sure it doesn't get to attack you, but Medium or even Close-range spells are perfectly adequate for facilitating that.

It's a fair point, but perhaps worth pointing out that if you take things out at range you don't have to take them out close up.


Given dragonblood spell-pact it is almost strictly incorrect to play a Sorcerer, as you have more spells known to swap around as one of the various fixed-list casters.

Personally, I prefer Spontaneous Cleric which avoids the delayed spell access endemic to spontaneous casters. Plus of course you access turn undead and domain abilities.


The nature of iterative probability is that even small risks add up very quickly if you repeat them. I would be surprised if there was even one "travel over a featureless plain" adventure per campaign, so you can make very conservative assumptions about how much bad spell choice effects your chance of losing other encounters and still decide to avoid fireball. A 5% chance to lose in 95% of encounters is worse (expect to lose 4.75% of encounters) than even a 100% chance of losing 1% of encounters. This is the same reason we advise people to prepare color spray over magic missile at 1st level, despite the latter's greater utility in the event of a boss fight with an Allip.
Your position is clear.

[RandomPeasant]

In any real game, Shock Trooper is a terrible option.

This is also true of fireball.


Blasting has an advantage over mundane martials in that they can attack at range, can target multiple enemies, and can target specific elemental weaknesses, depending on the enemy. And if you think that blasting spells should one-shot most enemies even if the martials aren't, you can make that build without too much issue either.

There are plenty of ranged martial builds too. You prefer Rogue as a base there, as you want Sneak Attack to get proper damage, but the halfing hurler (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Halfling_Hurler_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)) does plenty of damage at range. You can attack multiple enemies, but it takes quite a few to exceed the damage output of a martial build, and at that point you can just use other options. You can't really target specific elemental weaknesses, because you aren't likely to know what elemental weaknesses you'll run into ahead of time.


It's hardly Shock Troopers fault if people fail to cover the glaring hole in their defenses and then walk their low-AC characters into the enemies full attack range. What did they think would happen?

Also you don't need to Shock Trooper for that much to exceed the damage output of blasting spells against a single target. d6/level just isn't all that much damage, and Power Attack scales quadratically, because you get both more bonus damage and more attacks as you level. If, by 10th level, you've picked up Leap Attack and a bonus attack somewhere in addition to what we've been discussing the character having at 6th, you can deal as much damage as a cone of cold or orb of fire with less than a -5 penalty to AC.

I also frankly think that encounters with one enemy are both more common and generally more worrying than those with several weaker enemies, so I think having an option that performs well in the former situation (the Ubercharger) is better than having one that performs well in the latter (the blaster). If you're dealing with a bunch of weak enemies, you can drop stinking cloud or major image or whatever and even if some of them ignore it you've split the fight into small enough chunks that the martials can deal with it without titanic penalties to AC, and this works even against enemies where fireball would not deal enough damage to be of consequence.


At 6th level it's pretty normal to have access to 10 spell slots, yes? So I would expect a character to have options.

How many of those slots can cast fireball.


Close range is addressed by many spells.

Sure but you actually need to prepare them, which you are not going to have the slots for if your standard is "I need to beat any possible Long-range enemy". What if it's a Wizard that pumped their CON and prepared false life? Easy to get to the point where you need two or even three fireballs to be confident of killing them, and that's assuming you get all those fireballs on target at extreme range. Or what if it's a Wizard that has opted to do more CL boosting than you have? If his fireballs are 680ft range and yours are 640ft range, you have the same problem as the guy who didn't prepare fireball at all, especially if we assume he's flying. Is "make sure you've hit the highest CL any character of your level can" also a key target for optimizing?


I'll give you 'less' but not 'far less'. Covering 600' in less time than it takes for a fireball wipeout is challenging.

It's not 600ft. It's whatever range the enemy detects you at, which is likely to be rather less, given the Wizard's total lack of both Spot and Listen. At 600ft, he's rolling Spot at a -60 penalty, so I don't think the encounter is starting there. You are almost in range to use Medium-range spells by the time the penalty is less than the entire RNG, and within a single longbow range increment by the time he can make even DC 0 reliably. And I think he needs more than DC 0, because he doesn't just need to notice you, he needs to know it's you with high enough confidence to be willing to start throwing fireballs in your direction. Plausibly by the time he can do that he's already in charge range.


I agree but still plan to avoid redundancy. After we finish this exercise, there will be a solid discussion track record anyone can use to construct their own lists according to alternate criteria.

If your expectation is to provide a resource that will allow people to construct their own lists, why not just define a slightly longer list of perhaps 20 or 25 items and let people pick from that list in the way that I am describing (this would also have the benefit of making the argument less intense -- I think the case for "fireball top 25" is much, much better than "fireball top ten"). Again, I think you have not really figured out what you want the thing you are trying to make to be, and that is complicating the process of creating it for anyone who does not share precisely the same implicit assumptions you do.


I do not want to revisit this decision at this time.

I think you need to have this discussion until it is resolved in an internally consistent manner if you want your end production to be useful. I get that you just want to rate things, but far too many projects move to the "do the thing" stage without defining the thing they are setting out to do in enough detail to decide whether it's been done correctly or not.


This seems a distraction.

Sure, I'm happy not to define "combo" precisely. Let's return to the object-level question and ask what it is about greater might wallop that makes it one of the best spells at this level other than "you can use it at the same time as wraithstrike, which is insane".


It's a fair point, but perhaps worth pointing out that if you take things out at range you don't have to take them out close up.

"Medium" and "Close" and "however many range increments the archer can do without becoming useless" are also ranges. You only need to take things out at Long range if they dominate you at some shorter range, and almost nothing does. The example you have come up with is "what if a specialized character of a specific subset of PC classes is really good at ambushing you", not any printed monster or typical tactical circumstance. If you fight a Wizard in a dungeon or a forest, you don't need fireball. If you fight a Lamia or a Tendriculos on a featureless plain, you don't need fireball. Perhaps you just don't need fireball and our ability to imagine one specific situation where a thing is good does not justify claiming it is one of the ten best spells at its level.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Also you don't need to Shock Trooper for that much to exceed the damage output of blasting spells against a single target. d6/level just isn't all that much damage, and Power Attack scales quadratically, because you get both more bonus damage and more attacks as you level. If, by 10th level, you've picked up Leap Attack and a bonus attack somewhere in addition to what we've been discussing the character having at 6th, you can deal as much damage as a cone of cold or orb of fire with less than a -5 penalty to AC.
Taking an optimized ubercharger as the minimum baseline for dealing damage is hardly reasonable. It's also far more damage than any level-appropriate encounter needs.
A blaster wizard kills enemies just fine with a little optimization and enemies don't get deader than dead.



I also frankly think that encounters with one enemy are both more common and generally more worrying than those with several weaker enemies, so I think having an option that performs well in the former situation (the Ubercharger) is better than having one that performs well in the latter (the blaster). If you're dealing with a bunch of weak enemies, you can drop stinking cloud or major image or whatever and even if some of them ignore it you've split the fight into small enough chunks that the martials can deal with it without titanic penalties to AC, and this works even against enemies where fireball would not deal enough damage to be of consequence.
The point of playing an optimized blaster isn't because it's optimal, it's because it's fun. Which is incidentally also the only reason to play any kind of mundane melee.
It's powerful enough to hold its own in any halfway level-appropriate encounter with a little investment, and that's all you need.

[RandomPeasant]

Taking an optimized ubercharger as the minimum baseline for dealing damage is hardly reasonable.

I think suggesting that Reserves of Strength and an Empowered Spellshard are the first options a blaster will pick up when optimizing is hardly a reasonable baseline either. It is true that you can get impressive damage numbers with fireball at various levels of optimization. The issue is that I do not think there is a level of optimization where those damage numbers are impressive in any situation other than "a whole bunch of clumped-up enemies" when compared to what someone at a comparable level of optimization can do with their attack actions. And that means that fireball is a bad use of your limited spells known and spells per day.

It's not a spell where there is no imaginable situation that makes it worthwhile, but there is exactly one class for whom "is there an imaginable situation where this is worthwhile" is a useful standard, and that's the Erudite, who this list is clearly not for because we are not arguing for greater dispel magic to be on it at 3rd level.


The point of playing an optimized blaster isn't because it's optimal, it's because it's fun.

Sure. But a list of the ten best options does not seem the place for things you do because they're fun rather than optimal.

[Anthrowhale]

This is also true of fireball.
I somewhat disagree here: fireball can be useful fairly easily. If you listen a bit, I bet you'll find a testimony or two. If you list allowed resources for your ubercharger (i.e feats / ACFs / items), I think you'll find that similar usage for fireball optimization hits well. It is clear that this is not your playstyle, of course.


How many of those slots can cast fireball.

2 or 3? I'm losing the thread of argument. Casting fireball sometimes is not generally equivalent to using all slots to cast fireball. It's a tool, just like any other.


Sure but you actually need to prepare them, which you are not going to have the slots for if your standard is "I need to beat any possible Long-range enemy".

I think it's often the case that if a wizard prepares the wrong spells for the day the day may be more difficult.

W.r.t. levels of optimization for range, it is a concern.


It's not 600ft. It's whatever range the enemy detects you at, which is likely to be rather less, given the Wizard's total lack of both Spot and Listen. At 600ft, he's rolling Spot at a -60 penalty,

This is the "no one can see the sun" argument. The usual counter is that there are clauses (I forget where) stating that no check is necessary for unhidden things in line of sight. What happens at an individual table may vary of course.


If your expectation is to provide a resource that will allow people to construct their own lists, why not just define a slightly longer list of perhaps 20 or 25 items

I like the 10 constraint: it forces deep tradeoffs with meaningful conversations.


I think you need to have this discussion until it is resolved in an internally consistent manner if you want your end production to be useful. I get that you just want to rate things, but far too many projects move to the "do the thing" stage without defining the thing they are setting out to do in enough detail to decide whether it's been done correctly or not.

There is a point here, but I consider it relatively minor because there are few relevant early-level-on-offbeat-lists spells. We can plausibly just list all exceptions as an addendum.


Sure, I'm happy not to define "combo" precisely. Let's return to the object-level question and ask what it is about greater might wallop that makes it one of the best spells at this level other than "you can use it at the same time as wraithstrike, which is insane".

GMWallop is great because you can roll fistfuls of d6s for damage all day long. The accumulated contribution to victory over opponents in a day's adventuring can thus be quite substantial.


"Medium" and "Close" and "however many range increments the archer can do without becoming useless" are also ranges. You only need to take things out at Long range if they dominate you at some shorter range, and almost nothing does. The example you have come up with is "what if a specialized character of a specific subset of PC classes is really good at ambushing you", not any printed monster or typical tactical circumstance. If you fight a Wizard in a dungeon or a forest, you don't need fireball. If you fight a Lamia or a Tendriculos on a featureless plain, you don't need fireball. Perhaps you just don't need fireball and our ability to imagine one specific situation where a thing is good does not justify claiming it is one of the ten best spells at its level.
Yeah, I understand your position, I just don't find it convincing in my experience.

I think suggesting that Reserves of Strength and an Empowered Spellshard are the first options a blaster will pick up when optimizing is hardly a reasonable baseline either.

Well, the first options would probably be Fire Domain (+1 caster level, +1 fireball), and Bloodline of Fire (+2 caster level). I mentioned RoS simply because it's a good choice for many other purposes as well and hence nearly-free in an amortized sense.

[pabelfly]

It's hardly Shock Troopers fault if people fail to cover the glaring hole in their defenses and then walk their low-AC characters into the enemies full attack range. What did they think would happen?

So a Shock Trooper build needs:
Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush and Shock Trooper feats
Some form of Pounce or equivalent
Extra sources of AC on top of the normal bonuses we get from armor, Dex, Ring of Protection and Amulet of Natural Armor

We're a far cry away from Core + Complete Warrior to get this optimization as RandomPeasant first claimed. Seems like blaster caster can do the job of one-shotting enemies with less resources, whether it be in terms of feats and money spent, or how many source books are actually used.

[RandomPeasant]

If you list allowed resources for your ubercharger (i.e feats / ACFs / items), I think you'll find that similar usage for fireball optimization hits well.

But that's the thing. It doesn't need to hit well. It needs to hit better. Because the ubercharger can ubercharge every single round of every single combat. fireball is good in situations that are not terribly challenging (large numbers of weak enemies) or incredibly rare (you are stuck engaging an enemy with Long-range attacks at Long range). That does not make it a top ten spell.


2 or 3? I'm losing the thread of argument. Casting fireball sometimes is not generally equivalent to using all slots to cast fireball. It's a tool, just like any other.

So if you're spending two fireballs to clear a typical encounter, how are you keeping up the use of your spell slots enough to carry your weight?


I think it's often the case that if a wizard prepares the wrong spells for the day the day may be more difficult.

Yes, and fireball is wrong for most days. There is no reasonable expectation of encounter distribution by which "what if we get kited by a fireball-casting Wizard" is common enough to warrant preparing fireball every day, and if you don't prepare fireball every day it's not going to help you in this situation (in fact, you almost certainly need multiple fireballs, as even a 14 CON Wizard lives one on average). It's not like animate dead where just knowing it is all you need.


This is the "no one can see the sun" argument. The usual counter is that there are clauses (I forget where) stating that no check is necessary for unhidden things in line of sight. What happens at an individual table may vary of course.

I suspect what you're thinking of is "Notice something large in plain sight", which has a DC of 0, rather than not requiring a check. But not only do the standard penalties apply to that, it's not actually what we're trying to adjudicate here. What this hypothetical ambushing Wizard is trying to do is recognize specific individuals, not merely notice that something is there. If he's firing on anything he sees, a screening force of skeletons or hirelings will burn through his slots at no risk to the party (interesting that here using the [Evil] spell is clearly the more moral strategy). That's not, to my knowledge, something with an established DC, but it is certainly not something I would expect any DM to rule you can do automatically at maximum range.

If you really want to harp on "spot the sun", I would ask you whether you think a situation where everyone can recognize individual solar prominences by naked eyesight is really any less dumb. Because that's the logical conclusion of the framework you're advocating for. I would say that the simplest solution to that particular issue is just to rule that the DC for spotting the sun is negative ten trillion or whatever it is that it needs to be for the DCs and checks to work out properly.


I like the 10 constraint: it forces deep tradeoffs with meaningful conversations.

If you want to force tradeoffs, make it a ranked list. Right now no one is arguing, say, venomfire versus anyspell, because they are both clearly good enough to make the list. But one of them is better than the other, and if you made us rank them we'd have to decide which and argue about the merits of the spells on that basis.


There is a point here, but I consider it relatively minor because there are few relevant early-level-on-offbeat-lists spells. We can plausibly just list all exceptions as an addendum.

haste at 1st, arcane sight at 1st, dimension door at 2nd, lesser globe of invulnerability at 2nd, greater dispel magic at 3rd, fabricate at 3rd, and wall of stone at 3rd is seven spells from just the Trapsmith and not counting things I think there's even a plausible case against. There's also 2nd level animate dead from the Death Master, 4th level lesser planar binding from the Nar Demonbinder, and probably a whole bunch of other stuff I'm not familiar with because I don't play Artificers. Every list up to 4th is likely to have at least a third and maybe as many as all its spells replaced.


GMWallop is great because you can roll fistfuls of d6s for damage all day long. The accumulated contribution to victory over opponents in a day's adventuring can thus be quite substantial.

venomfire is just strictly better at this. If we're knocking major image off because silent image is on a different list, how are we putting a worse thing on the same list.


Well, the first options would probably be Fire Domain (+1 caster level, +1 fireball), and Bloodline of Fire (+2 caster level).

I think these compare wildly unfavorably to Pounce and Shock Trooper, either individually or separately. It's also worth considering the opportunity cost (as this is, after all, a list of the ten best spells, not merely a list of ten spells you can do cool stuff with). In this case, I would consider both "being a specialist or focused specialist Wizard" and "being able to qualify for Hathran" superior to the options you've outlined.


Extra sources of AC on top of the normal bonuses we get from armor, Dex, Ring of Protection and Amulet of Natural Armor

The AC is not as necessary as you're implying. Either you're facing one enemy, in which case you redmist them and who cares what your AC is, or you're facing multiple weak enemies and you don't need to Power Attack for as much.


We're a far cry away from Core + Complete Warrior to get this optimization as RandomPeasant first claimed.

Could you point me to the post where I said that? I recall saying "Core + Complete Warrior + Complete Champion", which gives you Pounce + Shock Trooper (+ Frenzied Berserker, though that's not relevant if we're talking about 6th level). But maybe I did say just Complete Warrior at some point. In that case, I would say that "this book plus another book from the same series" is not "a far cry" from "this book". But regardless, if you think there's one book that makes a better blaster Wizard than the Barbarian with just Shock Trooper, I would love to know what book you think that is and what option or options you're picking from it.


Seems like blaster caster can do the job of one-shotting enemies with less resources, whether it be in terms of feats and money spent, or how many source books are actually used.

Oh, really? Let's suppose we're talking about a Barbarian. Let's not even talk about the guy with Shock Trooper or Pounce. Just a Barbarian with Power Attack. With 22 STR and a +1 Greatsword, his single attack does an average of 17 points of damage. Nearly as much as baseline fireball, and while fireball hits multiple targets, it's not really the case that you can get better single-target scaling at this point. So as long as he can PA for 2 (he can), he does as much damage as fireball on each attack.

Now, what are the specific options you are getting to scale your fireball up faster than his attack routine? Reserves of Strength or Empowered Spellshard up your expected damage from 21 to 31.5. But if the Barbarian picks up Valorous on his weapon, his damage doubles. Pounce is not quite a doubling, as the second attack misses more than the first, but I think it generally averages more than +50% damage. Shock Trooper doesn't do so much on its own, but it stacks well with similar options, and Leap Attack is similar.

But let's suppose you want to pick up both Reserves of Strength and Empowered Spellshard. I could math out whether that's still behind Pounce + Valorous or whatever, but I don't need to, because at that point I think the relevant comparison is a Druid with a Fleshraker animal companion that uses share spells with venomfire. That's 36d6 extra damage every round, plus the baseline damage, plus whatever other buffs you throw in the mix, and it costs one spell slot for however many encounters you can fit into six hours.

It is certainly true that you can optimize blasting spells to deal large amounts of damage. But "deal large amounts of damage" is one of the easiest things in the game to optimize, and there is simply not any reason to believe that blasting spells have a comparative advantage there (outside of specifically dealing with chaff, and even then there are better options, particularly at higher levels), even before you consider that they cost spell slots every time you use them and stabbing people doesn't.

Of course, I could be wrong. I would be happy to engage with a specific analysis of the specific options that keep up with Valorous or Fleshraker + venomfire at comparable levels of optimization. But I feel I've done quite enough to engage with the level of detail you've provided here.

[Fero]

When I was younger I loaded my wizards down with direct damage spells. The results were often. . . less than i hoped. My style evolved to save or X and then Battlefield Control with the 3.5 conversion. At some point during this process that I relegated direct damage spells to the garbage bin.

I think part of this was an overreaction to my disappointment with direct damage spells. I expected my Fireballs to wipe out hoards of foes, and that seldom happened. I think another part of this was pride as now I knew how to do things "better."

It took me a long time to come back around to direct damage spells. However, as I slowly learned to use them better, I also learned that direct damage is pretty darn useful. Combat is a major part of most 3.5 games and dealing damage is the most reliable way to win combat. Even without optimization, the ability to kill or soften a large number of foes is great and lets your single target martials focus better. Optimized, blasting does damage comparable to uber chargers (i.e. more than needed) but, at range and in an AoE. Used wisely, damage spells are also extremely spell slot efficient. Most other spells are relatively situational. You need to dedicate a large number of slots to cover a lot of variables. On the other hand, damage is useful in almost every fight, meaning you don't need to prepare as many extraneous spells. This is doubly true for dedicated blasters who really only need one, maybe two, slots per combat.

All of that said, I still don't use direct damage spells very often. I don't find them to be particularly fun. I also worry that they step on the ties of other players and can make them feel useless.

[Quertus]

I have (my senile mind believes) run 2 characters with Fireball in 3e.

Neither were in any way optimized to cast Fireball well. They were the equivalent of handing a sword and board "my first fighter" a sharp bit of metal.

Unsurprisingly, neither was very effective.

That said, one did use Fireball to win an encounter, by themselves, at range. Once. Running through a module (that I haven't read, so I don't know for certain that the GM hadn't modified the module), there were numerous encounters where Fireball probably would have been good (literally, to wipe out cannon fodder, that thing I keep harping on, to allow the Ubercharger (ie, what the entire rest of the party functionally all were) to attack the actual threat), but that character happened to have a better spell for that purpose at that point, and so never cast Fireball in those situations, which were numerous.

Ah, it seems I'm wrong. Quertus, my signature academia mage for whom this account is named, not only has Fireball, but is technically somewhat optimized to cast it. As an epic level Wizard, I can't recall a time when his party was actually threatened by something that, say, 70 points of AoE fire damage would have really mattered much, outside things like "starting a forest fire" or "burning research notes".

I imagine a properly optimized character, like a Tainted Sorcerer mailman, or someone using some of the tech given in this thread, could put the spell to good use, but I'm still waiting on those testimonials from actual games to confirm this.

[Anthrowhale]

So if you're spending two fireballs to clear a typical encounter, how are you keeping up the use of your spell slots enough to carry your weight?

All the discussion of two fireballs was predicated on there being 2 fireball casters. Hence, they both hit in the first round, which is typically maximum opportunity and impact with the implied ability to handle ~3 encounters/day. A 4th typical encounter would need to be handled differently.


I suspect what you're thinking of is "Notice something large in plain sight", which has a DC of 0,

Nah, that leaves you still unable to see the sun & moon.

There's at least some DM adjudication in the spot skill around whether creatures are "hard to see".

...Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it.

Solar prominences are a red-herring. Virtually any DM would judge them hard to see.



If you want to force tradeoffs, make it a ranked list.

Maybe later. Reaching a point where we even have a good rough cut at each level is hard enough.



haste at 1st, arcane sight at 1st, dimension door at 2nd, lesser globe of invulnerability at 2nd, greater dispel magic at 3rd, fabricate at 3rd, and wall of stone at 3rd is seven spells from just the Trapsmith and not counting things I think there's even a plausible case against. There's also 2nd level animate dead from the Death Master, 4th level lesser planar binding from the Nar Demonbinder, and probably a whole bunch of other stuff I'm not familiar with because I don't play Artificers. Every list up to 4th is likely to have at least a third and maybe as many as all its spells replaced.

There isn't much more---take a look at the runescarred berserker list for the other particularly interesting one.

A difficulty with these lists is that it's unreasonable to assume access to these spells at ECL2, 4, and 6. Hence, in these evaluations, you really need to look at the ECL20 situation. Lesser globe of invulnerability (for example) might just lose there to Mystic Shield.



venomfire is just strictly better at this. If we're knocking major image off because silent image is on a different list, how are we putting a worse thing on the same list.

The great virtue of melee combat is that it's a least common denominator: pretty much everyone can do it and pretty much everyone is vulnerable to it. Contrast for example with ranged combat where persistent friendly fire is a deep shutdown. In that context Venomfire has the drawback that not everyone can leverage it (due to lack of poison) and not everyone is vulnerable (due to acid immunity). Thus, GMWallop is significantly more sure.

The other thing that I'd point out is that GMWallop is subtly powerful since it applies to iteratives while Venomfire usually does not. (It can, but polymorph[kelvezu] with riverine weaopns is extremely specific). Thus 60d6~=210 across 3 natural attacks is less different from 21*7=147 additional damage of GMWallop.

And of course, GMWallop and Venomfire _can_ be cumulative unlike Silent Image and Major Image.


I think these compare wildly unfavorably to Pounce and Shock Trooper, either individually or separately.

I think you are systematically comparing heavy application of optimization on the ubercharger with modest optimization on the part of a wizard. If you do a more fair comparison the results may not align with your preferred outcome.


Oh, really? Let's suppose we're talking about a Barbarian. Let's not even talk about the guy with Shock Trooper or Pounce. Just a Barbarian with Power Attack. With 22 STR and a +1 Greatsword, his single attack does an average of 17 points of damage.

The average AC is 19 at this level, so your attack of 6(level)+1(enhance)+6(str)=13 misses 25% of the time, implying average damage 12.75 in the first swing and 8.5 in an iterative.



Nearly as much as baseline fireball, and while fireball hits multiple targets, it's not really the case that you can get better single-target scaling at this point. So as long as he can PA for 2 (he can), he does as much damage as fireball on each attack.

The PA increases expected damage to 13.3 on the first attack and 8.55 on the second for 21.85 expected damage (or 13.3 if you don't get the second iterative.

A wizard going otyugh hole (3kgp) for Iron Will and Reserves of Strength deals 31.5 damage on a failed save or 15.75 on a successful save. The average reflex save is 7 and with an 18 casting stat that's a DC of 17. Hence, the fireball deals full damage 45% of the time for an average of 22.84 damage. This is much more than the barbarian's first round damage of 13.3 and close to the barbarian's sustained 21.85, except that it's a multitarget effect.

Note here that this wizard is _less_ specialized than the barbarian and has used less resources (3k gp vs 4k gp and 1 feat each). The nature of the damage is of course different: multitarget burst vs single target sustained, but pulling damage effects forward in time so you deal them all in the first round is generally sound.



Now, what are the specific options you are getting to scale your fireball up faster than his attack routine? Reserves of Strength or Empowered Spellshard up your expected damage from 21 to 31.5.

The Empowered Spellshard would up the above to 34.26 expected damage at the cost of 6k gp


But if the Barbarian picks up Valorous on his weapon, his damage doubles.

That's a foul at ECL6 since a Valorous weapon costs 8k gp > half 13k gp wealth by level. This matters a great deal because the spellcaster likely accesses Mark of the Enlightened Soul at the next spell level so we are comparing Empowered Spellshard + Mark of the Enlightened Soul to Valorous. Empowered Spellshard + Mark of the Enlightened Soul deals x2.25 damage while Valorous only deals x2.


Pounce is not quite a doubling, as the second attack misses more than the first, but I think it generally averages more than +50% damage.

The fire domain wizard (or fire sphere sorcerer) would add +1 caster level. Rerunning the numbers that would up the expected damage to 38.06 vs. single target barbarian damage of 25.85 (assuming you convert the +2 bonus to hit into PA damage).


Shock Trooper doesn't do so much on its own, but it stacks well with similar options, and Leap Attack is similar.

And if the blaster throws in a couple more feats to increase damage the fireball damage of course increases in potency as well. I'd be tempted by Bloodline of Fire (caster level+2) and there are several ways to use a feat for +1. That means the fireball is maxed out at ECL6 dealing 13d6*1.5 damage = 68.25 damage on a failed save and 34.125 on a successful one for an average damage of ~49.48. Further general improvements are possible by spending remaining wealth by level to increase spell save DC at the rate of 2.5 expected damage / spell save DC.


But let's suppose you want to pick up both Reserves of Strength and Empowered Spellshard. I could math out whether that's still behind Pounce + Valorous or whatever, but I don't need to, because at that point I think the relevant comparison is a Druid with a Fleshraker animal companion that uses share spells with venomfire. That's 36d6 extra damage every round, plus the baseline damage, plus whatever other buffs you throw in the mix, and it costs one spell slot for however many encounters you can fit into six hours.

If you were advocating for the Fleshraker all along this would make more sense. As-is, the Fleshraker only has a +6 to hit (i.e. 50% miss) with two claws and +1 to hit (i.e. 75% miss) with bite/tail. Only the claws and the tail apply poison so you are are looking at 2x 50% chance 1d6+3+poison+6d6 acid + 25% chance 1d6+1+poison+6d6 acid + 25% 1d6. That works out to an expected 37.375 damage + 1.25 poison chances dealing an expected ~1.1 dex damage on hit. It 's a potent attack of course, but not quite the "win" button you might be assuming and it's notably less than the optimized blaster.


I also worry that they step on the ties of other players and can make them feel useless.
This is a serious issue with player dynamics. A blaster spellcaster can be a damage dealer in a party, but that may lead to role duplication and unfun eclipsing of other characters. This is a solid metagame reason for spellcasters to avoid the blaster role in many (but not all) parties.

[RandomPeasant]

Even without optimization, the ability to kill or soften a large number of foes is great and lets your single target martials focus better.

But does fireball give you that ability? Even ignoring saves, fireball does not deal enough damage on average to kill the average CR 2 creature, let alone what happens if you need to use it against Ogres or something. But it softened them! Again, does it? Our core-only Barbarian deals 17 damage per swing before considering Power Attack, and against CR 2 creatures he can almost certainly afford to Power Attack. Compare this to the effect of stinking cloud, which is guaranteed to take at least two standard actions off anyone effected, or major image, which does not even afford a save until interacted with.


This is doubly true for dedicated blasters who really only need one, maybe two, slots per combat.

But the trouble is, again, that the people dedicating themselves to weapon attacks need zero slots per combat. You can get all the damage you need out of an ubercharger, or a blender Druid, or a Cleric Archer, or a Flask Rouge, or just the party's collection of minions, and once you can do that you're far better off spending your Wizard's resources on something with a marginal cost higher than "zero".


All the discussion of two fireballs was predicated on there being 2 fireball casters. Hence, they both hit in the first round, which is typically maximum opportunity and impact with the implied ability to handle ~3 encounters/day. A 4th typical encounter would need to be handled differently.

But now you're left specializing two characters into the same non-optimal strategy.


Solar prominences are a red-herring. Virtually any DM would judge them hard to see.

The sun is a red herring. Virtually and DM would judge it easy to see.


A difficulty with these lists is that it's unreasonable to assume access to these spells at ECL2, 4, and 6.

Why? An Artificer can scribe scrolls or craft wands of spells from any class with equal ease. An Erudite or Archivist has a bit more trouble, but particularly for the latter there's not anything in the rules that says PrC scrolls are rarer or more expensive than base class ones. Even the former is equally at the mercy of the DM's decisions about who you meet when it comes to learning color spray as haste. The issue I keep coming back to is that there just are not things that behave in a way consistent with your "anything from the big name lists, nothing from the obscure lists" philosophy.


In that context Venomfire has the drawback that not everyone can leverage it (due to lack of poison) and not everyone is vulnerable (due to acid immunity). Thus, GMWallop is significantly more sure.

Not everyone can leverage venomfire, but the class that gets it (I suppose Clerics also have it, but we all know it's a Druid spell) gets both wild shape and an animal companion. Which, I suppose, brings us back to the "who is learning these spells" question. venomfire is genuinely substantially less good if you assume anyone but a Druid is learning it, to the point that I'm genuinely unsure it belongs on the ECL 6 list for any other class. The acid immunity issue, on the other hand, is more easily addressed, as venomfire is eligible for Substitute Energy (after which I think there is at least a reasonable argument that the effects stack).


Thus 60d6~=210 across 3 natural attacks is less different from 21*7=147 additional damage of GMWallop.

That's still a factor of nearly half in venomfire's favor. And there are some things that get you more venomfire attacks (like haste). Plus, as venomfire has uncapped CL scaling, you can get that 60d6 number way higher if you care to.


Note here that this wizard is _less_ specialized than the barbarian and has used less resources (3k gp vs 4k gp and 1 feat each).

They are less specialized, but they are considerably more optimized. You're grabbing from Complete Scoundrel and Dragonlance Campaign Setting to do what you're doing. If we re-do our calcs for a Barbarian with Pounce (from Complete Champion) and a Valorous weapon (from Unapproachable East), we're back to him doing substantially more damage even if he lands just one attack on a charge, and now getting multiple attacks on a charge.


The nature of the damage is of course different: multitarget burst vs single target sustained, but pulling damage effects forward in time so you deal them all in the first round is generally sound.

If you can prevent enemies from acting for multiple rounds (spells such as stinking cloud and major image are quite good at this, and even great thunderclap gets you at least a round) you have effectively pulled not just your damage, but everyone else's, forward a round.


That's a foul at ECL6 since a Valorous weapon costs 8k gp > half 13k gp wealth by level.

I am not sure the number of DMs that allow permanent PAO into combat forms, but consider the "half your wealth" guideline an absolute rule is higher than zero.


This matters a great deal because the spellcaster likely accesses Mark of the Enlightened Soul at the next spell level so we are comparing Empowered Spellshard + Mark of the Enlightened Soul to Valorous. Empowered Spellshard + Mark of the Enlightened Soul deals x2.25 damage while Valorous only deals x2.

No we're not. We're comparing that to Valorous + Pounce or Valorous + Shock Trooper or Valorous + Leap Attack (or maybe we even get to the point where it's Valorous + Pounce + Whirling Frenzy). You don't get to simply put every source in a blender for the Wizard and expect the Barbarian to stick with Core + 1.


If you were advocating for the Fleshraker all along this would make more sense.

I had tried to be clear at the outset that I was using "Ubercharger" synecdoche for the general class of "people who do damage with attacks", and you'll notice that I have brought up things like the Halfling Hurler as well. Regardless, it's not really relevant to the question of "is fireball good".


Only the claws and the tail apply poison so you are are looking at 2x 50% chance 1d6+3+poison+6d6 acid + 25% chance 1d6+1+poison+6d6 acid + 25% 1d6. That works out to an expected 37.375 damage + 1.25 poison chances dealing an expected ~1.1 dex damage on hit.

Remember that the Druid can repeat all that for credit themselves, thanks to wild shape (it is a bit awkward to do with share spells as I suggested, though, as I'm used to the druid riding the companion, which doesn't work if you're doubling down on a single form). Plus there's some other buffs even in core, so again I think if you do your analysis at any really comparable level of optimization, the Druid is just way ahead.


This is a solid metagame reason for spellcasters to avoid the blaster role in many (but not all) parties.

It's not just a metagame reason, it's a solid in-game reason as well (though the reasoning gets a little weird depending on which points you consider as fixed). If the Barbarian and the Wizard (or the Druid and the Wizard or the Rogue and the Wizard or the Warblade and the Wizard) can both do "you die" levels of damage with appropriate optimization, it is incorrect for the Wizard (who can do other things those classes -- with the exception of the Druid -- cannot) to optimize in that way unless you think that two damage dealers is better than one damage dealer plus BFC, SoDs, minionmancy, and utility.

[Anthrowhale]

The sun is a red herring. Virtually and DM would judge it easy to see.

Good, so what happens with a party moving around 200 yards away? Easy to see or requires a spot check? That's DM-dependent.


Why?

I expect lists available only naturally to higher level characters to simply be less available in typical cases until you reach that level.


That's still a factor of nearly half in venomfire's favor. And there are some things that get you more venomfire attacks (like haste). Plus, as venomfire has uncapped CL scaling, you can get that 60d6 number way higher if you care to.

Sure, and you can scale up greater mighty wallop with arms of plenty, girallon's blessing, a mouthpick weapon, and battle arms + multweapon fighting feats. I'm not sure which "wins" by raw numbers, but it's neither obvious nor relevant.


We're comparing that to Valorous + Pounce or Valorous + Shock Trooper or Valorous + Leap Attack (or maybe we even get to the point where it's Valorous + Pounce + Whirling Frenzy).

The allusions to an incompletely detailed heisen-ubercharger don't seem to be progressing towards any resolution. I'd suggest you fully specify (and commit to) a particular build if you want to make further progress. Make sure you don't exceed wealth-by-level or wbl/2 for any one item.

It's not just a metagame reason, it's a solid in-game reason as well.
This may be true often, but not always. For example, what if the party is all spellcasters?

[remetagross]

I wanted to mention Touch of Juiblex - it's a 3rd level save-or-die spell, which as far as I know makes it the earliest such spell.

[Anthrowhale]

I wanted to mention Touch of Juiblex - it's a 3rd level save-or-die spell, which as far as I know makes it the earliest such spell.

Oh, nice one. The 4 round fuse here makes it kind of 'meh' in my mind so I added to the "probably not" pile, as I like attack spells to deny actions. As an example, Bladesong (no save touch to daze) as a level 2 spell seems like a compelling alternative. Is there one which you think is weaker? (And why?)

None of the fuse spells are currently on the list.
1. Power Word:Pain---it's hard to coordinate a low-level party to flee.
3. Touch of Juiblex---touch range is rather close and 4 rounds is a long time.
4. Call of Stone... somewhat compelling once Gemjump is available. Call of Stone hits at medium range, cast celerity, and then cast gemjump to evacuate the whole party.
7. Death by Thorns. No save incapacitation for 3 at touch range for 1d4 rounds then if fort save is failed die. The incapacitation is great but it seems Amber Sarcophagus offers that at range.

[remetagross]

Death by Thorns is of course miles ahead of the others you've mentioned.

Touch of Juiblex isn't that good of an in-combat spell, actually. Touch range, Fort negates, SR: yes and it takes four rounds to trigger. However, it is of a low enough level that you can make potions out of it, spread them out in a crate full of regular potions of cure light wounds that you deliver to the royal palace, and wait. Not only do you kill someone, you also create a medium-sized match of green slime, which is a dangerous hazard to let loose in its own right. In addition, the spell has no tags whatsoever, so it is a save-or-die that bypasses 99% of means of protection against these kinds of effect (a rare few creatures are immune to Transmutation effects), and the target is not actually dead but transmuted into something else with a instantaneous duration (so no dispel either). Which means it can never be raised, resurrected or the like as is. Or you could wipe the green slime out, and a True Resurrection would bring the target back...as a green slime. It is a very peculiar sort of save-or-die.

It is also pretty much the only save-or-die you can fit in an E6 game, all the more so that all the means that would allow you to save an affected target during the four rounds fuse are not available in E6.

[Anthrowhale]

Death by Thorns is of course miles ahead of the others you've mentioned.
And yet still Bladesong is in the ballpark. With 3 bladed weapons and precast persisted Bladesongs you could plausibly keep 3 targets dazelocked while hammering through their hit points. Bladesong has no save, but you do need to expend actions to use.



Touch of Juiblex isn't that good of an in-combat spell, actually. Touch range, Fort negates, SR: yes and it takes four rounds to trigger. However, it is of a low enough level that you can make potions out of it, spread them out in a crate full of regular potions of cure light wounds that you deliver to the royal palace, and wait. Not only do you kill someone, you also create a medium-sized match of green slime, which is a dangerous hazard to let loose in its own right. In addition, the spell has no tags whatsoever, so it is a save-or-die that bypasses 99% of means of protection against these kinds of effect (a rare few creatures are immune to Transmutation effects), and the target is not actually dead but transmuted into something else with a instantaneous duration (so no dispel either). Which means it can never be raised, resurrected or the like as is. Or you could wipe the green slime out, and a True Resurrection would bring the target back...as a green slime. It is a very peculiar sort of save-or-die.

It is also pretty much the only save-or-die you can fit in an E6 game, all the more so that all the means that would allow you to save an affected target during the four rounds fuse are not available in E6.

Yeah, sort of a terrorist spell. It's good for the bad guys.

[remetagross]

Wow, okay, Bladesong is definitely an awesome spell, even if not persisted by the way. A neat trick you can use is with a Bloodstorm blade to do it at range. Or with a thrown dagger: while the effect only triggers during a round in which the weapon is used at melee, nothing says that the touch attack itself has to be used in melee as well.

Death by Thorns can also target up to three creatures. It is important since fuse spells haave the drawback of leaving the teammates of the target free to either help it out, or keep hammering on the PCs. However, if all of the foes are taken out at once by a fuse spell, then that does not matter anymore.

[Anthrowhale]

A neat trick you can use is with a Bloodstorm blade to do it at range. Or with a thrown dagger: while the effect only triggers during a round in which the weapon is used at melee, nothing says that the touch attack itself has to be used in melee as well.

Nice.


Death by Thorns can also target up to three creatures. It is important since fuse spells haave the drawback of leaving the teammates of the target free to either help it out, or keep hammering on the PCs. However, if all of the foes are taken out at once by a fuse spell, then that does not matter anymore.
DbT is very good---it's just a question of competition amongst other L7 effects and so if you have thoughts about what to swap down instead, that's interesting. My present view is that between Amber Sarcophagus (potentially chained) offering a no-save ranged victory and wielding 3 blades with Bladesong it's not quite worthwhile to swap down other spells.

[Fero]

Devil' Ego is a swift action spell that gives a +4 Profane bonus to charisma and changes your type to outsider, unlocking all sorts of Alter Self shenanigans.

[Anthrowhale]

Devil' Ego is a swift action spell that gives a +4 Profane bonus to charisma and changes your type to outsider, unlocking all sorts of Alter Self shenanigans.

I added a note on the 'probably not' section here. Overall, it seems like a good spell but I'm not quite seeing the top-10 case. Exploiting Alter Self/Polymorph can be done via starting as an LA+0 outsider. The numerical bonus is good due to rarity of profane bonuses, but doesn't seem enough to really make a difference? It's to bad you can't persist it to get bonus spells/day.

If you disagree, maybe suggest something to swap down?

[Chronos]

Quoth remetagross:

...and the target is not actually dead but transmuted into something else with a instantaneous duration (so no dispel either). Which means it can never be raised, resurrected or the like as is. Or you could wipe the green slime out, and a True Resurrection would bring the target back...as a green slime. It is a very peculiar sort of save-or-die.
That does mean, though, that Break Enchantment would still work.

[remetagross]

That does mean, though, that Break Enchantment would still work.

Very good point, I hadn't thought about that.

However:
1. In E6, it is almost impossible to access Break Enchantment. Off the top of my mind, scrolls from an Artificer are the only way, and that's not exactly common.
2. Out of E6, since Break Enchantment's CL bonus caps out at +15, get yourself a CL of 25 (for a CL check DC of 36) and you're good. Or even in E6: if that game is optimized enough that Artificer scrolls of Break Enchantment are available, it might be that you can get your CL up to 18 too (for a CL check DC of 29, while a 6-th-level Artificer scroll of Break Enchantment has a CL of 8, for a max roll of 28).

[Anthrowhale]

FYI, I squeezed Nondetection in on the ECL20 list here by downgrading Anyspell to ECL6 only. The advantage of Nondetection seems pretty good with caster level escalation, providing something like half of Mindblank out of L3 slot.